Martials are now 1-10 condensed progression

[Xervous]

At face value, ignoring shenanigans and focusing on the base chassis, what classes would end up in a decent spot by having their feature (and perhaps partial casting) progression condensed to a 1-10 class?

Clarification: BAB, skills and saves unchanged. Just looking at progression rate of features.

[AvatarVecna]

At face value, ignoring shenanigans and focusing on the base chassis, what classes would end up in a decent spot by having their feature (and perhaps partial casting) progression condensed to a 1-10 class?

So what, "Fighter 10" now gets you literally everything "Fighter 20" normally gets you, and same for other martial classes?

[Kayblis]

Pretty much all of them, really. The numerical part is just good/bad saves, good/avg BAB, skills and HP - if you intend on giving double, I'd suggest against it, and instead give one extra good save to classes that have only one, and raising the skills per level by 2 for everyone. Most base classes' features can be condensed into a 2-to-1 format and not be overwhelming - the thing is if you really want that.

Fighter: 11 feats in 10 levels makes the Fighter a good pick for any martial archetype, and I'd say a bit too good in a bad way - everyone would just have 2~4 levels of Fighter, making feats less important and turning it into a fixed part of every martial build. It kills variety.

Barbarian: If you limit ACFs a bit, Barbarian is a great pick for the shortening. It has tons of dead levels, and it gains so little that the only reason to pick the class is a 1 to 2 level dip for Pounce and maybe Imp Trip as ACFs. Allowing the ACFs might turn it into an 'obligatory Barb level' every build will have to take or miss out on power - this is due to the Barb being front-loaded, not good, so you can mitigate it by redistributing the features around.

Monk: To be honest, the Monk isn't so bad as people say. Compressing him into 10 levels would actually grant a buttload of features, and it'd be an amazing class. Three feats plus evasion at 1, Magic strike at 2, many extra attacks with a good Flurry progression, super speed, and a respectable unarmed damage early on. This may be the "best" class from this experiment before even considering the amazing ACFs the class gets.

Rogue: The best damage dealer in the compressed range would be this one. 1d6 sneak per level, many side features. It becomes merely a good class if you don't give full Sneak Attack like that, but if you do you'll have the glass cannon class outlined to everyone.

Paladin, Ranger: They get many features, but almost no good ones. Compressing them into 10 levels, along with their spellcasting, is actually a great idea. They're the ones I'd suggest the most.

Bard: with double spell progression, it's better than any other caster until level 11. with normal progression but sped-up features, it's a great class that has its uses and can play well along the other sped-up classes. Great team player here.

Other classes fall somewhere within these ranges. I'd group up the Duskblade with the Bard, and the Hexblade with the Paladin and Ranger. No other classes come to mind right now.

[liquidformat]

Soulborn compressed to 10 levels is actually a pretty great class, same with swashbuckler, I actually did variants of both turning them into early entry 10 level prcs if you are interested Soulborn (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12pRnlqeuBFlC8owuIGpoddXdtp_2bM4rlnXq9cNWvvk/edit?usp=sharing) swashbuckler (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wS5zvvhSu-9J2SdbCMVPqr9o-g7OB6--4474dTbwKBY/edit?usp=sharing)

[eversilentone]

Martial adepts (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade) could be a huge problem with normal manoeuvre progression, but otherwise fine if it's just around their class features (Crusader could be really interesting). Other classes with non-casting magical alternatives might also be a challenge (Binder, MoI classes, etc). But I think dipping is the main bit which is problematic, as losing 1 caster level on a Sorcerer might be considered reasonable for Divine Grace and other goodies on a Paladin, and Monk 1 would be excessively common. What if the compression was an option accompanied by commitment? For example, normal progression and no restrictions, or fast track/compression but a requirement to take the base class to 10 levels or perhaps a requirement to take no other base classes until 10 levels if you wanted Fighter 3 (which would feel weird but is actually Fighter 6) and PrC xxx? I mean, most interesting PrCs have BAB requirements anyway...

Also, I assume gestalt needs to be taken out of the occasion as a gestalt compressed Fighter/Rogue, or Ranger/Paladin would be quite something! Finally, I think ACFs are a bit challenging as the aforementioned Fighter/Rogue could have 20d6 SA at level 20. On the other hand, that's not really anything compared to level 9 spells, so perhaps just firmly hold that in perspective whilst wincing at massive sneak attacks...?

My firm favourite, if they even would count as martial, would be a compressed Spellthief, as stealing SLAs and level 9 spells at level 10 would be so much fun!

[NigelWalmsley]

I'm not sure how much it helps. It's certainly good at low levels, but at low levels it's also largely unnecessary. The game is balanced in an E6 environment. And at high levels it still doesn't resolve the total lack of anything for most martial classes to do outside combat. The Fighter isn't irrelevant outside combat at mid and high levels because his abilities aren't good enough, he's irrelevant because they don't exist at all.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

So let's say every odd-numbered class level's features get rolled into the next higher level, and every even-numbered class level gets its level reduced by half.

Let's assume the feats that require a set number of class levels also get that prerequisite reduced by half, since there's no such thing as 20 levels of the class any more, but other prerequisites such as BAB remain unchanged. Weapon Specialization requires Fighter 2, Greater Weapon Focus requires Fighter 4, Greater Weapon Specialization requires Fighter 6, Melee Weapon Mastery's prerequisites are unchanged (BAB +8, Weapon Specialization), and Weapon Supremacy requires Fighter 9.

Fighter gets two feats at 1st level, and another feat at every class level. He can replace a 1st and 3rd level feat for Dungeoncrasher. He can gain the Zhentarim Soldier abilities at 2nd, 3rd, and 5th level. All the Dead Levels (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a) features land at every level except 1st, despite there no longer being any dead levels.

Fighter:
1. Weapon Focus, Dungeoncrasher
2. Weapon Specialization, Physical Prowess, Skill Focus: Intimidate
3. Physical Prowess, Dungeoncrasher, Extended Intimidation
4. Greater Weapon Focus, Physical Prowess
5. Feat, Physical Prowess, Swift Demoralization
6. Greater Weapon Specialization, Physical Prowess
7. Feat, Physical Prowess
8. Melee Weapon Mastery, Physical Prowess
9. Weapon Supremacy, Physical Prowess
10. Feat, Physical Prowess

So you've got four open Fighter feats and four open general feats. You'll want Imperious Command at 6th and the Never Outnumbered skill trick. You'll probably want EWP at 1st. You'll want Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and Knock Back, along with Combat Reflexes. You can have all of that by 10th level. Find a way to pick up Cleave so you can start taking War Hulk for your 11th-20th levels. Unless being a martial prestige class it also gets condensed?

[Prime32]

The Warrior of Air and Warrior of Earth fighter ACFs (Dragon #355) become more interesting, granting access to some decent SLAs. They're not compatible with Dungeoncrasher though.

The Dragonscale Husk ACF (Dragon Magic) also becomes more viable, granting an additional +1/3 AC per level plus faster energy resistance.

[SirNibbles]

Swift Hunter looks very good if you condense Ranger and/or Scout to 10 levels.

[Xervous]

This idea bubbled up when I saw another thread mentioning various martial classes should jump rails to higher level concepts (PrCs?) past a certain point to keep with the games intended progression of scope. Obviously some things drive numbers into uncomfortable places such as rogue’s sneak attack approaching the output of a lazy ubercharger. Glossing over those numbers this level condensing does seem to put a handful of classes on a more respectable feature progression consistent with a rise up to 10th. What would lie beyond in terms of serviceable PrCs is harder to guess at, but D&Ds solution of complicated stuff being magic has me suspecting there would be a decent sampling of innate casting PrCs padding out the ranks.

[NigelWalmsley]

You could always give reduced level casting as a capstone at 10th. So for hitting 10th level as a Rogue, you get 8th level Beguiler casting. I've considered that for some homebrew stuff I've been working on.

[Unavenger]

Depending on which classes you count as "Martial", you may end up making Duskblade and Psychic Warrior too good, as well as all the blade magic classes. I suspect rogue and Battle Blessing/SotAO paladin are also too good, as is anything involving Mystic Ranger.

Fighter, monk and and barbarian will still not be great. Casters like truenamer, healer, shadowcaster and warlock will also be kinda shafted, because you appear to be judging "Designed to hit things with sticks" as the sole reason a class can be weaker than the full-casters.

Changes like this need to be applied carefully according to individual classes, not as a sweeping change to all of an ill-defined group of them.

[lylsyly]

Give a condensed monk a condensed paladin's spell casting but only the buffing and healing spells from the cleric's list and it may actually be playable. :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Totemist and Binder become pretty good.

This is honestly a good way to judge the power level of different classes. What's actually good when you do this, and what still sucks?

[lylsyly]

Agreed, but I also agree with Unavanger. Some of the "Martial" classes could be too good with this.

[NigelWalmsley]

This is honestly a good way to judge the power level of different classes. What's actually good when you do this, and what still sucks?

Honestly anything that was remotely playable is somewhere between "fine" and "broken" with this change. The power gap isn't all that big at 10th level. The real dumpster fire classes like Truenamer and Monk are still bad (this doesn't even really fix any of the problems Truenamer has, as they still get the same skill check bonus), but most other stuff is fine while the accelerated progression lasts.

Take, for example, the Hexblade. Hexblade is T5 right now, but with this change it gets pretty good spellcasting progression. You awkwardly don't get 1sts at 1st, but after that you're at or ahead of what a Sorcerer gets, and while you have less spell slots, you get early access to some spells (I haven't looked at the Hexblade list in detail though, maybe it's spells all suck?). You also get a bunch of class features and a better chassis. So that's probably around T1/T2, maybe starting to fall off at 10th when you don't get 5th level spells.

And it's pretty much like that in general. Every 4/9 caster becomes Sorcerer-ish. Everyone with precision damage gets an attack routine that is instantly lethal against most level-appropriate enemies once they start getting bonus attacks from TWF or archery. You have to dig into basically the bottom half of T5 before you start getting stuff that doesn't benefit substantially. I guess there's also stuff like the Marshal, but I don't understand how that ended up in T4 to begin with as there's no real reason to take more than one level of Marshal in your life.

But the issue is that while this makes these classes really good from 1st to 10th, it doesn't do anything at the back half of the game. At 10th level, your Ranger has 4th level spells, including the occasional 5th level spell like Animal Growth. You also have a 17th level animal companion (maybe), and an assortment of other class features. But where do you go from there? PrCs won't progress your casting any further, and it's not like this has made the other PrC options available to Ranger any more appealing.

[eunwoler]

Aside from BAB scaling I think condensed progression for non casters makes alot of sense, not just from a balance standpoint. Many martials as is never get any feature that goes beyond what a level, what, 6, 8 level wizard can really do? If that. And I guess the reason why we never see or think up a level 20 cavalier that matches a same level spellcaster is because he doesn't exist, he's level 10

[eunwoler]

Where do people go from there?

Hmm, aside from decent PC options or multiclassing into casters, maybe its time to start homebrewing martial oriented backlog classes compatible with this progression. Martials with great narrative control and new feats designed specifically for the 3rd and 4th tier

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You condense the 1-20 class features into levels 1-10, then create new 11-20 class features.

Everything they get at 1-10 continues its same progression all the way to 20th and beyond.

Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade, Spellthief, and any other lesser spellcasters would max out at around 7th or 8th level spells.

Make up a list of special abilities, similar to what a Rogue can pick from but even better, and draw inspiration from epic feats as well. Grant one at every 2-3 levels for the weaker classes, and one at every 3-5 levels for the stronger classes. I'm talking effects like Pounce, Spell Resistance, a continuous (Greater) Spell Immunity that can have the immune spells repicked with 10 minutes of concentration, etc. Make one that grants an aura which you can select/switch which effect it continuously emits with 10 minutes of concentration, choosing from Invisibility Purge, Zone of Truth, Globe of Invulnerability, Silence, Darkness, Magic Circle, etc., maybe even Dimensional Anchor and/or Antimagic Field in the higher levels. Make one that doubles one specific enhancement bonus you can have, which can be taken multiple times but doesn't stack, valid choices being any one ability score enhancement bonus, or any weapon enhancement bonuses you benefit from, or an armor enhancement, or a shield enhancement, or a natural armor enhancement bonus, or an enhancement bonus to speed. Make one that allows you to substitute one specific saving throw for one specific other, so if a Fighter takes it twice he can roll a Fort save instead of a Dex or Will save.

[NigelWalmsley]

Honestly if you're going to do that, just re-write the damn classes. We don't need a sixth spell progression that goes up to 7th level spells, the Ranger and the Paladin can just get Bard casting with spell lists that do level-appropriate stuff. That also fixes the problem of some of these being too good at low levels.

[Endarire]

Bard is too much of a caster to warrant doubling of abilities. They can already do amazing musical things (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8936.0) in addition to casting and skilling!

I disagree that Fighter and Barbarian become mandatory dips, but they're appealing.

I agree that the martial adepts get wonky if compressed.

[eunwoler]

is there a tier list for prestige classes

how strong are the prestige options? Lets say if you have 10 levels of fighter or rogue and 10 levels of a PC class what tier is it?

[Unavenger]

Honestly anything that was remotely playable is somewhere between "fine" and "broken" with this change. The power gap isn't all that big at 10th level. The real dumpster fire classes like Truenamer and Monk are still bad (this doesn't even really fix any of the problems Truenamer has, as they still get the same skill check bonus), but most other stuff is fine while the accelerated progression lasts.

I actually think that if you make the strange assumption that truenamer is a martial class, it becomes very powerful - assuming you can make the skill checks, which as has always been pointed out to be entirely possible in literally every discussion of the truenamer so I won't reinvent the wheel here - with early flight at 3rd, invisibility on time at 3rd, single-target haste or single-target no-save slow at 3rd (you decide if that's early or not), a weirdly-powerful dispel option at 5th, energy resistance and immunity spells early at 3rd and 7th (I'm aware you're having to take two of the 3rd-level utterances at fourth level instead, but still), many of the trust-me-I'm-a-healer-honest utterances actually coming online pretty early too (ability damage and drain being cured at 5th is some mix of early and late, and level drain at level 7th - cause or cure - is actually on time, although the cause version is severely weaksauce). At 9th level you then proceed to pick from the +5 to attack and damage utterance (greater magic weapon has been around for 4 levels, but doesn't stack with real weapons, doesn't affect multiple weapons or natural weapons, and it won't give these kinds of bonuses until CL 20) which has gone from "So bad that even a truenamer probably won't want it" to "Oh, that's quite good actually". DR 5/- and +5 to all saves is another 9th-level option, or no-save -5 to AC and saves out of the same utterance known. Oh, and another option is dominate monster, so, you know. Also all your utterances can target more than one thing, now.

There's also a few cool utterances from not-LEM, and naturally, at level 10, this all goes to hell exactly as everyone who's familiar with conjunctive gate sorta anticipated, except that this time it's relevant because your ability to flood the board with stuff that's twice your level actually lasts for over half the game. The DC 45 check is harder at level 10 than at level 20, but if you can't make it at least a decent fraction of the time that's all you, 'cause I can get it better than 50/50 just off the top of my head without even having to look at my "How to get skill bonuses" list.

[Gnaeus]

I’d probably link it to Tiers. Something like T5 gets 2 levels of class features for every level taken. T4 gets double class features on even levels.

I think it’s a pretty good idea on that basis. You may need to eyeball progressions to make sure nothing too wonky comes in too early. Like “you can’t take the 10th (20th) level of Truenamer until ECL 16, because gate at 10 breaks the game assumptions.”

I agree with Unavenger’s analysis. I think you’d be a pretty tough T2-3 on levels 1-9. You’d get a couple of nice powers early, at the cost of the optimization needs of truenaming and the restricted choice of powers compared with a real full caster.

Even at double progression only on even levels, I would expect something like shadow caster to come out pretty strong too.

[eunwoler]

I’d probably link it to Tiers. Something like T5 gets 2 levels of class features for every level taken. T4 gets double class features on even levels.

I think it’s a pretty good idea on that basis. You may need to eyeball progressions to make sure nothing too wonky comes in too early. Like “you can’t take the 10th (20th) level of Truenamer until ECL 16, because gate at 10 breaks the game assumptions.”

I agree with Unavenger’s analysis. I think you’d be a pretty tough T2-3 on levels 1-9. You’d get a couple of nice powers early, at the cost of the optimization needs of truenaming and the restricted choice of powers compared with a real full caster.

Even at double progression only on even levels, I would expect something like shadow caster to come out pretty strong too.

this doesn't really fix any class without spellcasting or features that already progress rapidly in strength

getting more of the same feats you had at level 1, 2 will not make a martial balanced out.

[Telonius]

There are probably a couple of wacky PrCs that become a little bit easier to get into. Fochlucan Lyrist would need only a 1-level Rogue or Monk dip instead of a 2-level dip (for Evasion).

[Gnaeus]

this doesn't really fix any class without spellcasting or features that already progress rapidly in strength

getting more of the same feats you had at level 1, 2 will not make a martial balanced out.

That depends a TON on what you mean by fixed, and also on how you use it.

First, everything in 5 is in 5 because it can’t do its job. Usually fighting. If we assume that we are looking at essentially T5 10(20)/other T5 10/(20) in some combination of level progression, that’s essentially within spitting distance of T5//other T5. Generally with slightly better saves and slightly worse skill points/BAB, and with the added benefit of being able to race to some key level faster by advancing one side over the other. T4 12(18)/T5 8(16) not too terribly different.

Any T5 gestalted with a compatible T5 is a T4. In almost all cases any T4 class with a compatible T5, and many T5 tristalts hit T3. That’s a statement I’ve done a lot of analysis on and am willing to defend. To the extent that this is gestalt by another name and with slightly different progression and optimization tricks, I feel pretty confident it will work our similarly.

So if “fix” or “balance out” means that it’s not casting wish/miracle/gate/shapechange or creating minions, no, it doesn’t. If “fix” or “balance out” means that the class can perform adequately in a typical dungeon environment alongside classes like bard or Duskblade, with a range of tactical utility that will make them functional in a large majority of encounters, it generally does. The problem with soulknife isn’t that a free +9 melee/thrown weapon with pseudo sneak attack sucks. It’s that it isn’t enough to be good in the absence of other class features or a combat chassis.

And that’s just the simple way. Dips and real multi class combos will be way better. Monk 1 or fighter 1, or even monk 1/fighter 1, really kicks up as worthwhile. I imagine skillmonkey builds like rogue 4(6)/scout 4(6)/ninja 4(6)/ranger 4(6)/spellthief 4(6), which seems like an easy T3 after swapping some duplicate features.

[AvatarVecna]

I feel like if this were implemented, it'd be used to make dips less invasive on a proper caster build, or to maybe set up gish-theurge types more easily (as above). A single character level of monk is now Monk 2 (Wis to AC, +3 to all saves, +1 BAB, Evasion, and Deflect Arrows). That's a super-solid 1-level dip for a Cleric or Druid. Whether it makes up for being 1 CL behind forever....ehhhhh it's still pretty great.

[NigelWalmsley]

Any T5 gestalted with a compatible T5 is a T4. In almost all cases any T4 class with a compatible T5, and many T5 tristalts hit T3. That’s a statement I’ve done a lot of analysis on and am willing to defend.

I'm pretty sure that's not actually true. Most T5s and T4s are fine at low levels and fall behind at high levels. That means Gestalting with each other doesn't really do much for them. Something like Hexblade//Marshal isn't T3. At low levels, you get to add your Charisma to a whole bunch of stuff and life is good, but at high levels you still end up as a 12th level character who is looking at a single 3rd level spell per day and full BAB and trying to figure out how he could possibly belong in a party where the Warlock has Greater Invocations and Imbue Item.

[Gnaeus]

I'm pretty sure that's not actually true. Most T5s and T4s are fine at low levels and fall behind at high levels. That means Gestalting with each other doesn't really do much for them. Something like Hexblade//Marshal isn't T3. At low levels, you get to add your Charisma to a whole bunch of stuff and life is good, but at high levels you still end up as a 12th level character who is looking at a single 3rd level spell per day and full BAB and trying to figure out how he could possibly belong in a party where the Warlock has Greater Invocations and Imbue Item.

I’m absolutely certain it is. Hexblade//marshal just don’t help each other much. But Truenamer//marshal is easy T3. It makes hitting all your checks pretty trivial, blows knowledges away, makes you a passable Gish and adds some party buffing. As is hexblade//spellthief. Which is clearly superior to Duskblade, by virtue of better hp, better damage, more spells known vs less/day, great passive defenses and also being an effective skillmonkey. Also pretty comparable to swordsage, which has a slight edge on power level (6th maneuvers vs 3rd spells) but will spend a fair bit to overcome disadvantages like the difference in BAB, sneak attacks, familiar, bonus feats, ranged weapons, trapfinding, spontaneous casting of 22 spells known and some very effective anti-spell defenses.

[NigelWalmsley]

I’m absolutely certain it is. Hexblade//marshal just don’t help each other much. But Truenamer//marshal is easy T3. It makes hitting all your checks pretty trivial

No, it doesn't. Marshal adds your Charisma to your checks. That's like a +3 bonus. That's not big enough to make it "trivial" to hit your checks if it wasn't trivial already. And even if the Truenamer can hit her checks, Utterances are still worse than Invocations or Vestiges, with more limited uses.


Which is clearly superior to Duskblade, by virtue of better hp, better damage, more spells known vs less/day, great passive defenses and also being an effective skillmonkey. Also pretty comparable to swordsage

Honestly, that mostly just sounds like an argument that Spellthief should move up a tier. The only thing Hexblade is giving you there is slightly better HP and slightly better defenses. Neither of those are really deciders, and spell-stealing tricks probably are better than the worst maneuver setup or the Duskblade's limited casting.

[Gnaeus]

No, it doesn't. Marshal adds your Charisma to your checks. That's like a +3 bonus. That's not big enough to make it "trivial" to hit your checks if it wasn't trivial already. And even if the Truenamer can hit her checks, Utterances are still worse than Invocations or Vestiges, with more limited uses .

A truenamer 12 can match 7 top ranked invocations that a warlock could have at 12 (based on pulling up a guide) and still have 10 utterances left. Actually, they are better than that, because many utterances are useful on both sides, like invisibility/see invisibility. At least one top rated invocation, beguiling influence, is just a worse version of motivate charisma on a 12th level character.

(Least: beguiling influence/motivate charisma, see the unseen/vision sharpened, entropic warding/archers eye
Lesser: walk unseen/vision sharpened again, ignore the pyre/energy negation, fell flight/seek the sky
Greater: devour magic/spell rebirth
All of which assumes you are using all your invocations for utility and none for blast shapes or the like).

Also, it’s like a +3 bonus at first level. It’s way easier to increase 2 stats than 1. For example a +2 int +2 Cha item is 6kgp cheaper than a +4 Cha. A +4 +4 is 4 kgp cheaper than a +6. Cheaper to increase with wishes. Easier race selections. And of course, everything else a marshal can do after level 1. Like upcharging our knowledge skills and permabuffing the party.



Honestly, that mostly just sounds like an argument that Spellthief should move up a tier. The only thing Hexblade is giving you there is slightly better HP and slightly better defenses. Neither of those are really deciders, and spell-stealing tricks probably are better than the worst maneuver setup or the Duskblade's limited casting.

And full bab for a sneak attacker which makes it easier to hit, therefore steal spells. And a familiar on a skillmonkey. Which we can also steal spell likes from. And DOUBLE the spells known and per day, including early access to many. Oh and raising your save DCs with bonus feats. Martial weapons. Couple of swift action Debuffs. Mettle. I don’t know what kind of hate on you have for hexblade but it really gives a lot. Spellthief is inferior to Duskblade or Swordsage. Hexblade hurls it over that tier line.

[liquidformat]

Any T5 gestalted with a compatible T5 is a T4. In almost all cases any T4 class with a compatible T5, and many T5 tristalts hit T3.

I really don't think this is a valid statement because 'compatible' is too ambiguous. For example Martial is T4 and Expert T5 and they are quite 'compatible' and yet Martial//Expert is still Tier 4. Similarly mixing rogue with either of the samurai is probably still t4 sure you might be top end tier 4 but I don't think you have bumped into tier 3. We could also look at Noble which I don't think you can pair anything in T4 to make a T3, and if there is then that is an argument that the other class should be tier 3 to start...

[Prime32]

I feel like if this were implemented, it'd be used to make dips less invasive on a proper caster build, or to maybe set up gish-theurge types more easily (as above). A single character level of monk is now Monk 2 (Wis to AC, +3 to all saves, +1 BAB, Evasion, and Deflect Arrows). That's a super-solid 1-level dip for a Cleric or Druid. Whether it makes up for being 1 CL behind forever....ehhhhh it's still pretty great.
For monk it probably makes more sense to combine lv1+3, then lv2+4.

CW samurai probably needs to go from 2x to 3x progression:


1
Two-Weapon Fighting (bastard sword + short sword), Kiai smite 1/day; proficiency with bastard swords


2
Quick Draw (bastard sword or short sword), +4 Intimidate


3
Improved Initiative, Kiai smite 2/day


4
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (bastard sword + short sword), Kiai smite 3/day, Mass staredown (30ft)


5
Improved staredown (move action)


6
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (bastard sword + short sword), Kiai smite 4/day


7
Frightful presence

[Gnaeus]

I really don't think this is a valid statement because 'compatible' is too ambiguous. For example Martial is T4 and Expert T5 and they are quite 'compatible' and yet Martial//Expert is still Tier 4. Similarly mixing rogue with either of the samurai is probably still t4 sure you might be top end tier 4 but I don't think you have bumped into tier 3. We could also look at Noble which I don't think you can pair anything in T4 to make a T3, and if there is then that is an argument that the other class should be tier 3 to start...

Compatible being synergistic. Expert gives very little to marshal. 2 extra skills and a couple in class. Expert would be a better match for something like Paladin where it provides another good save and the ability to actually have ride, handle animal, know religion, know nobility, UMD and a couple of party face skills. (And as it relates to this thread, where instead of actual gestalt you are doubling class ability progression, expert is beyond useless, since it doesn’t benefit at all, lacking class abilities.)

I don’t feel bad arguing rogue/samurai as T3. Although you could come up with better pairings for either one, rogue is high T4 because it is too easy to deny sneak, especially at low/mid op. And it’s a class that makes attack rolls but with 3/4 bab and trash hp and saves. Give it full bab and a bunch of bonus feats (because TWF and improved initiative are actually feats a rogue might reasonably pick) and some intimidate cheese and I think it’s a good match for a ToB class or duskblade. With a flanking buddy, it’s a damage monster. Combat capable? Check. Out of combat utility? Check. Looks T3 to me.

Noble is tough to rank. The utility of favors is very subjective. Is Noble/Paladin T3 or top T4? That’s gonna depend a lot on what highly expensive Equipment means, what loans means. Etc. Can you borrow 3 pieces of magical gear a week? Or get sensitive information otherwise unavailable without high level magic? It’s like PF vigilante, it doesn’t work well in a wilderness. So maybe not noble. Or in a diplomatic or sandbox game it could be a powerhouse. Can a favor generate downtime events? Could you use it to organize a caravan? Secure a pardon? Grant someone a knighthood? Get support for a treaty? The only limits seem to be that it can’t replace an adventure or disrupt a campaign. Could you use a favor to get a noble to send you on a mission somewhere you wanted to go anyway, thus being paid twice? I think you could.....