people need to know more about grapple burrow

[newguydude1]

ive been playing against fiends for a year now and i gotta say grapple burrow is what got me through all of it.

grapple burrow is when you have a creature with a burrow speed grapple an enemy creature and then drag him down into the earth where he will suffocate to death.

i did it with my psion's geodite low levels.

these days im doing it with a wolverine zombie. i get a direbat or bison zombie to grapple a creature, then the wolverine zombie joins the grapple by having the direbat or bison zombie intentionally fail its grapple check against it, and then the direbat or bison zombie just endlessly pins the enemy until the wolverine zombie wins one opposed check against the enemy at which point the direbat or bison zombie intentionally fails its opposed check and the wolverine zombie buries everyone 5ft into the ground. then both zombies try to break the grapple, and when they break the grapple, the direbat or bison grapples the wolverine and the wolverine carries the direbat or bison back to the surface leaving the enemy underground to suffocate.

im sure there are other ways for you to accomplish this like summon monster fiendish wolverine.

this is how you beat monsters with dr and regeneration when you cant beat the dr.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

How are you as a psion even getting them underground with your arms occupied by burrowing and them getting a second opposed check to escape when you try going underground (a dangerous space)? Not to mention most sane DMs will rule they can just follow you out (if you leave a tunnel) or instantly return to the surface once the space they're in disappears on your exiting it (otherwise)

[newguydude1]

How are you as a psion even getting them underground with your arms occupied by burrowing and them getting a second opposed check to escape when you try going underground (a dangerous space)? Not to mention most sane DMs will rule they can just follow you out (if you leave a tunnel) or instantly return to the surface once the space they're in disappears on your exiting it (otherwise)

my psion is not doing it. her geodite is.

no creature with a burrow speed leaves a tunnel unless the text directly says it. why im using wolverine instead of dire badger.

what is this "second opposed check to escape when you try going underground (a dangerous space)"

sane dms wont make up house rules on the spot like suddenly giving a creature conditional burrow speed when next to a nearby burrowing creature that doesnt leave tunnels burrowing out, and change how everything works because a player took out a monster in an unconventional way.

[Troacctid]

It takes 1 minute to dig yourself out of debris equal to 5x your maximum load without any tools. According to Google, a cubic meter of topsoil weighs about 3,000 lbs, which means even a creature with 18 Strength would take about 2 minutes to dig that far. So you're correct that it would be very difficult for most creatures to escape without teleportation (or friends to help dig you out) if you get them down far enough. However, if you're not that far under, there's a pretty good chance you can escape before you suffocate as long as you have a decent Con score. With 15 Constitution, you can hold your breath for 3 minutes without even needing to make a check. After that, you can use up whatever air is left in your impromptu shallow grave, which will buy you even more time, including another 3 minutes. I think you need to go fairly deep before it's a death sentence, statistically, and remember, it's a grapple check every time you want to move—and you're at half speed.

[Fouredged Sword]

What you want is a creature with earthglide and to stick someone in the middle of solid stone. Earth elementals are ideal for this, being strong and able to earthglide through rock. They are excellent blockers and pushers starting at level 9 when a cleric with the earth domain and wizard working together can call them on the prime material with planer binding and rebuke a pair of them into service. They can stay under the rock and reach up with it's time for them to attack. If you have a source of temporary negative levels like fell drain you can rebuke a 8HD large earth elemental into your command at 8th level, but you are going to need a scroll of planer binding to get one rather than being able to rely on lesser planer binding.

[Seerow]

It takes 1 minute to dig yourself out of debris equal to 5x your maximum load without any tools

I'm sorry but this right here is my biggest take away from the thread. Is that an actual rule somewhere and I was just unaware of it? And if so is there also a rule for how much it gets augmented just adding a shovel or similar tool?

Because characters with carrying capacities in the 6 ton range are doable without serious shenanigans, and being able to dig out 10 5ft cubes of dirt a minute or one per round sounds like a pretty neat (if niche) trick.

[newguydude1]

I'm sorry but this right here is my biggest take away from the thread. Is that an actual rule somewhere and I was just unaware of it? And if so is there also a rule for how much it gets augmented just adding a shovel or similar tool?

Because characters with carrying capacities in the 6 ton range are doable without serious shenanigans, and being able to dig out 10 5ft cubes of dirt a minute or one per round sounds like a pretty neat (if niche) trick.

frostburn says "snow and debris" in an avalanche situation. if dm says thats the same as dirt then yeah. it the only place where the rule is found.

one of them dragon books (books not compendium or magazine) has rules for miner using profession to dig a hole. its like a 100 times slower but its for mining so it might be slow because of supports and stuff.


What you want is a creature with earthglide and to stick someone in the middle of solid stone. Earth elementals are ideal for this, being strong and able to earthglide through rock. They are excellent blockers and pushers starting at level 9 when a cleric with the earth domain and wizard working together can call them on the prime material with planer binding and rebuke a pair of them into service. They can stay under the rock and reach up with it's time for them to attack. If you have a source of temporary negative levels like fell drain you can rebuke a 8HD large earth elemental into your command at 8th level, but you are going to need a scroll of planer binding to get one rather than being able to rely on lesser planer binding.

i thought earthglide prevented you from dragging people into stone becuase only the earth elemental is able to glide through the stone not his equipment or his buddies.

[RaiKirah]

Get a Flight speed and a Burrow speed and Bull Rush people into the ground from overhead. Bonus points if Flyby Attack lets you do this and fly back out on the same turn.

[Troacctid]

frostburn says "snow and debris" in an avalanche situation. if dm says thats the same as dirt then yeah. it the only place where the rule is found.
Well, that's where I found it, yes, but now that I'm looking, it's in the core rules too, under Surroundings, Weather, & Environment > Dungeons > Cave-Ins and Collapses—and this section also includes a clause where buried creatures can free themselves with a simple DC 25 Strength check.

[rel]

I think you can find more detailed rules for being encased in solid dirt or stone in descriptions of the plane of earth.

[newguydude1]

Well, that's where I found it, yes, but now that I'm looking, it's in the core rules too, under Surroundings, Weather, & Environment > Dungeons > Cave-Ins and Collapses—and this section also includes a clause where buried creatures can free themselves with a simple DC 25 Strength check.

...

so your saying grapple burrow fails on creatures with at least 20 strength? no matter how deep?

on the bright side, buried creatures cant dig them free according to the cave in rules. its gotta be your friend who frees you.

[Telonius]

This is a big part of what makes that crab dangerous. Ability to get creatures into a situation where they can't survive is powerful.

One possible problem with digging straight down: How close is the Underdark to your surface? Might still be fatal, just a different kind of fatal. (Remember, call before you dig).

[Crake]

My only question to this is how do you get around the fiends just teleporting out of the ground? Most fiends with DR and regeneration also have at-will greater teleport, and some pretty decent SR to make slapping on a dimensional anchor pretty difficult. Others still have dispel magic so they can also just remove the dimensional anchor you slap on them if you manage to beat it's SR

[PrismCat21]

Freeing yourself from 'debris', and digging yourself out from underground, are two VERY different things.
I believe those rules don't apply go being buried alive.

[Toliudar]

Since zombies are mindless, how are you telling them to do all this? How are you telling the zombie to let go and dig up once they actually get the opponent underground (and therefore out of earshot)?

[newguydude1]

My only question to this is how do you get around the fiends just teleporting out of the ground? Most fiends with DR and regeneration also have at-will greater teleport, and some pretty decent SR to make slapping on a dimensional anchor pretty difficult. Others still have dispel magic so they can also just remove the dimensional anchor you slap on them if you manage to beat it's SR

i used this strat on the lower levels before the fiends got those teleports. under cr6. at cr 7 i use something else.


Since zombies are mindless, how are you telling them to do all this? How are you telling the zombie to let go and dig up once they actually get the opponent underground (and therefore out of earshot)?

zombies are controlled mentally. i dont see the problem.

[Crake]

i used this strat on the lower levels before the fiends got those teleports. under cr6. at cr 7 i use something else.

DR i understand, but what fiends CR6 or lower have regeneration? Or did you mean fast heal? I know imps and quasits have DR and fast heal, and are rather small, so would be subject to this kind of tactic, but no others come to mind?


zombies are controlled mentally. i dont see the problem.

"This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. "

Unless you're not using animate dead?

[newguydude1]

oh i forgot to mention

grapple burrow lets you duck into the ground while you wait out matter agitation and power word pain. a simple badger from summon monster is good enough to do this.

it also lets you dig under walls and doors.

[King of Nowhere]

no creature with a burrow speed leaves a tunnel unless the text directly says it. why im using wolverine instead of dire badger.


so, you are saying that a wolverine or badger burrows without leaving tunnels behind?
one wonders how do they actually breathe underground.
i can see the argument for a creature with a magical ability to move through rock, but normal burrowing animals dig a tunnel
furthermore, those animals use their claws to dig, and how are they digging if they are grappling?



sane dms wont make up house rules on the spot like suddenly giving a creature conditional burrow speed when next to a nearby burrowing creature that doesnt leave tunnels burrowing out, and change how everything works because a player took out a monster in an unconventional way.

a good dm should reward creativity, but should not encourage abuse of rules technicality, unless your specific table wants to play like that.
for you see, there are many types of RAW.
1) there are the Rules As Written, we all know.
2) then there are the Rules Asinine Written, when the rules themselves are stupid.
3) then there are the Rules Awfully Warped, when the rules are respected to the letter while subverting their meaning
4) and there are the Rules Abused Wantomly, when people invoke technicalities to claim things that make no sense. Most often this follows from insisting to follow to the letter a case of Rules Asinine Written

now, i don't know exactly what a geodite is, and it is possible that it makes sense with it. as a kind of elemental, it probably uses magic to burrow.
but if one of my players tried that with a burrowing animal, i would ask them how the animal would burrow if they are using their limbs for grappling. and how would they expect to leave no tunnels. and unless they can give some satisfying answer that i cannot imagine, i'd shot down the idea. and if they try to claim that nowhere in the rules it states that they need their limbs to burrow, i'd shot down the player too, because it's a clear case of type 4 RAW.

anyway, grabbing someone and bringing them underground would require multiple successful grapple checks. i wouldn't call it a particularly strong strategy. you could just as well use that grapple check to immobilize your opponent and let an ally coup de grace


What you want is a creature with earthglide and to stick someone in the middle of solid stone. Earth elementals are ideal for this, being strong and able to earthglide through rock.

on the other hand, can an elemental in earth glide carry other people too? if your druid wild shapes into an earth elemental, can he drag the rest of the party underground for transportation? can the enemies do that?
as far as i could determine, the RAW on earth glide (which clearly qualifies at type 2) don't say anything more specific. they don't even specify whether the creature can see while underground, or how do they orient themselves otherwise.
so, this is a pure "ask your dm" case.

[Crake]

so, you are saying that a wolverine or badger burrows without leaving tunnels behind?
one wonders how do they actually breathe underground.
i can see the argument for a creature with a magical ability to move through rock, but normal burrowing animals dig a tunnel
furthermore, those animals use their claws to dig, and how are they digging if they are grappling?

To address the point about normal burrowing animals leaving a tunnel, that dirt they're displacing has to go somewhere... They pull from in front of them, and deposit behind them, essentially moving their little pocket forward bit by bit, that's actually quite literally what's described in the burrow description: "Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing)" As for how they breath, their little pocket has enough air to last them a couple of minutes at least, so they do so by not staying underground too long.

[King of Nowhere]

To address the point about normal burrowing animals leaving a tunnel, that dirt they're displacing has to go somewhere... They pull from in front of them, and deposit behind them, essentially moving their little pocket forward bit by bit, that's actually quite literally what's described in the burrow description: "Most burrowing creatures do not leave behind tunnels other creatures can use (either because the material they tunnel through fills in behind them or because they do not actually dislocate any material when burrowing)" As for how they breath, their little pocket has enough air to last them a couple of minutes at least, so they do so by not staying underground too long.

well, ok, i've been too extreme. but one thing is filling the hole they make, and another is not leaving a tunnel at all. where a badger has burrowed, there is a tunnel in the dirt filled by soft deposits. it's much easier to dig it than normal dirt. also, it's not airtight, as badgers and similar animals stay down more than a few minutes.
i would allow for a similar animal to drag something underground, but for the buried creature getting out would be much easier than it would be on a normal cave-in.
still, it isolates an enemy for a while, and by the time they can disentomb themselves, the fight is over and the party can finish him, so, useful.

[newguydude1]

anyway, grabbing someone and bringing them underground would require multiple successful grapple checks. i wouldn't call it a particularly strong strategy. you could just as well use that grapple check to immobilize your opponent and let an ally coup de grace

how does grapple let allies cdg? also its one successful grapple check not multiple.

[Troacctid]

how does grapple let allies cdg? also its one successful grapple check not multiple.
It's a grapple check to establish a hold, another grapple check to move at half speed, more grapple checks if you want to burrow deeper, then another grapple check to escape the grapple and leave them buried alone. That's three checks at a minimum, maybe more.

[PrismCat21]

also its one successful grapple check not multiple.

One grapple check to grapple. One grapple check to move.
Next round: One grapple check to move. One grapple to move again (double move).
Next round: One grapple check to move. One grapple to move again (double move).
Next round: ~continues~

[newguydude1]

It's a grapple check to establish a hold, another grapple check to move at half speed, more grapple checks if you want to burrow deeper, then another grapple check to escape the grapple and leave them buried alone. That's three checks at a minimum, maybe more.

establishing a hold is done by zombie bison intentionally failing its check so thats not a real check.
grappling to move is the one you need to win. hes in the ground suffocating.
once hes underground, escaping the grapple is just an inconsequential bonus. if he has 20 or more str the zombies would stay underground and prevent him from doing that dc 25 str check cave in rules.

so the only grapple check you need to win is the one to move. win that one check and the guy is doomed.

[Troacctid]

establishing a hold is done by zombie bison intentionally failing its check so thats not a real check.
???

What? 🤔

[newguydude1]

???

What? 🤔


these days im doing it with a wolverine zombie. i get a direbat or bison zombie to grapple a creature, then the wolverine zombie joins the grapple by having the direbat or bison zombie intentionally fail its grapple check against it, and then the direbat or bison zombie just endlessly pins the enemy until the wolverine zombie wins one opposed check against the enemy at which point the direbat or bison zombie intentionally fails its opposed check and the wolverine zombie buries everyone 5ft into the ground. then both zombies try to break the grapple, and when they break the grapple, the direbat or bison grapples the wolverine and the wolverine carries the direbat or bison back to the surface leaving the enemy underground to suffocate..

were talking about this right

[Toliudar]

So...let me track this. Using a standard zombie bison and a standard wolverine zombie, and a minor devil with, say, 14 strength and 25 HP. You specified fiends who don't teleport, and I didn't feel like sifting through a dozen source books to find one).

Round 1: Zombie bison charges, survives the attack of opportunity, and attempt to grapple. They have about an 80% chance of making the touch attack to initiate, and about a 65% chance of winning the opposed grapple attempt.
Round 2: the zombie wolverine charges and succeeds on grappling the bison. The bison chooses to step away from the grapple and the devil does not attempt to stop it, Somehow, in a few sentences, you convey these tactics to your two mindless henchthings. The devil has about a 50% chance of breaking the wolverine's hold on its turn.
Round 3: the wolverine has about a 50% chance of winning a grapple attempt in order to move the bearded devil underground. The devil has about a 50% chance of damaging the wolverine.
Round 4: somehow, you have preprogrammed the wolverine to let go of the grapple, and it has about a 50% chance of successfully disengaging. It returns to the surface, leaving the minor fiend trapped below.

With all of that, you've used 2 rounds of actions from the bison and 3 from the wolverine - and you've got to be on hand to issue these complicated orders as well. You have about a 15% cumulative chance of everything working as you've described without needing to start over, and a chance that the fiend will shred the wolverine while they are buried.

Have I got this right?

[newguydude1]

Have I got this right?

no. multiple creatures (upto 4) can join a grapple

round 1a: bison or direbat grapples. grapple provokes an attack of opportunity and if it lands the attempt fails. so often i go direbat for its much higher ac of 22. might have to buff with mage armor too. alternatively i bait out the attack of opportunity if i can. alternatively i just have multiple bison zombies attempt the grapple. command undead seriously increases the number of zombies in your control.
round 1b: wolverine joins the grapple by beating the bison or direbat's grapple check by making the bison or direbat intentionally fail.
round 2a: bison or direbat endlessly pins the target to make it impossible for the creature to break the grapple.
round 2b: wolverine attempts to bury all the creatures involved into the ground. if he fails, thats fine. bison or direbat with its massive grapple score will prevent the guy from doing anything meaningful including trying to escape the grapple.
round ???: once everyone is in the ground the zombies either stay down there with the creature or they break the grapple and resurface.

[InvisibleBison]

round 1b: wolverine joins the grapple by beating the bison or direbat's grapple check by making the bison or direbat intentionally fail.

I don't think this works. The rules for grappling say "If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against" - but in this scenario, there's only one opponent, the devil. The bison/direbat and the wolverine are allies, not opponents, so the bison/direbat's presence in the grapple doesn't invoke the multiple-opponents rule. Or am I missing something?

[newguydude1]

I don't think this works. The rules for grappling say "If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, you pick one to make the opposed grapple check against" - but in this scenario, there's only one opponent, the devil. The bison/direbat and the wolverine are allies, not opponents, so the bison/direbat's presence in the grapple doesn't invoke the multiple-opponents rule. Or am I missing something?

huh. i thought when you join a grapple, everyone in it is grappling with everyone. but looking at the rules a lot closely, its confusing. but i think your right.

i guess it is two grapple checks.



i have a new idea using cave in rules that troacctid pointed out.


In 1 minute, using only her hands, a character can clear rocks and debris equal to five times her heavy load limit. The amount of loose stone that fills a 5-foot-by-5-foot area weighs one ton (2,000 pounds). Armed with an appropriate tool, such as a pick, crowbar, or shovel, a digger can clear loose stone twice as quickly as by hand. You may allow a buried character to free himself with a DC 25 Strength check.

so if the zombies can perma grapple and pin something, then i think a bison zombie can just dig a 10ft wide 5ft deep hole with its hooves like a dog, and a grappling bison zombie can then drag the devil into the hole, and the first bison zombie can just bury both of them while the second zombie or zombies hold it still. like drowning the thing but with dirt instead of water.

interesting. tell me if this works. some devils like imps and ekolids cant really do anything to a zombie and the zombie cant kill these guys either due to their dr and fast healing or regeneration. this tactic might give the zombies a win instead of it ending in a tie.

[King of Nowhere]

how does grapple let allies cdg? also its one successful grapple check not multiple.

i was referring to the opponent being buried under the rabble. when he puts out his head, he can be killed easily.
ok, technically there are no rules for it, and from the way you're answering other posts, you seem to care about this stuff.

anyway, if you can have your zombie pets grapple the opponent and keep it pinned reliably, i don't see the advantage of this convoluted way of killing. just finish it off with regular attacks once you have dispatched every other foe
and if the problem was a devil with damage reduction that you could not overcome, but that nonetheless was weak enough to be reliably grappled by your minions (i mean, he gets an opposed grapple check to break free for every attack he has, that's a lot of chances to get lucky), then it is a very corner case of usefulness.
if, instead, you just enjoy the thought of having your foes buried alive by your pets, by all means, go on

[Blue Jay]

ive been playing against fiends for a year now and i gotta say grapple burrow is what got me through all of it.

grapple burrow is when you have a creature with a burrow speed grapple an enemy creature and then drag him down into the earth where he will suffocate to death.

I'm always leery of burrow-related strategies, because the burrowing rules are far too minimalistic, and it's a bit challenging for a DM who isn't prepared to make unusual rulings.

The logistics of a wolverine holding someone while burrowing seem problematic to me. It seems like there should be a "hands free" type rule, or a "tunnel diamater" rule that would come into play here. Surely a wolverine's ability to dig will be comprised by dragging a person in its jaws, and surely it would be harder to dig a burrow wide enough to fit itself and another creature at the same time. And there would ideally be a better interface with other rules, like the "squeezing through a space" rules and the "rubble-digging" rules.

I don't know: I've always felt that the idea of burrowing as a movement mode is a bit silly, at least for mundane creatures like wolverines. It's too Looney Tunes for me. But, it's still an interesting idea to play with, nonetheless.


What you want is a creature with earthglide and to stick someone in the middle of solid stone.

Does earth glide give the ability to drag other creatures through earth or stone, though? That seems kind of hard to rationalize in my mind. Earth glide is (Ex), so I don't think it includes the ability to somehow transform another creature into a "can phase through stone" state.


One grapple check to grapple. One grapple check to move.
Next round: One grapple check to move. One grapple to move again (double move).
Next round: One grapple check to move. One grapple to move again (double move).
Next round: ~continues~

From the SRD Grapple Rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple):


"Move
You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple."

That puts some major action-economy constraints on the routine you're describing. For newguydude1's situation, the wolverine's burrow speed is 10 feet, so it can only drag a grapple 5 feet per round, assuming it wins every grapple check. And on top of that, it's a zombie, so it only gets one action per round anyway.

The geodite also has a 10-ft burrow speed, so it's also limited to 5 feet per round without buffing. But at least it gets a full slate of actions. But then, it's Small, so winning all those grapple checks is not going to be trivial.

I don't know, this "grapple burrow" thing feels like a bit of a Rube Goldberg machine to me: lots of moving parts, lots of fiddly logistics, and lots of ways for things to fail. I bet there's a good way to make "grapple burrow" work smoothly, with a different monster, faster burrow speed, etc.

[Toliudar]

no. multiple creatures (upto 4) can join a grapple

round 1a: bison or direbat grapples. grapple provokes an attack of opportunity and if it lands the attempt fails. so often i go direbat for its much higher ac of 22. might have to buff with mage armor too. alternatively i bait out the attack of opportunity if i can. alternatively i just have multiple bison zombies attempt the grapple. command undead seriously increases the number of zombies in your control.
round 1b: wolverine joins the grapple by beating the bison or direbat's grapple check by making the bison or direbat intentionally fail.
round 2a: bison or direbat endlessly pins the target to make it impossible for the creature to break the grapple.
round 2b: wolverine attempts to bury all the creatures involved into the ground. if he fails, thats fine. bison or direbat with its massive grapple score will prevent the guy from doing anything meaningful including trying to escape the grapple.
round ???: once everyone is in the ground the zombies either stay down there with the creature or they break the grapple and resurface.

Ah! So according to this revised sequence, the wolverine is taking not only the opponent but also an indeterminate number of zombie bisons with it down into the ground? Because the bisons haven't let go, they're still part of the grapple.

In that case, aside from the fact that this strategy only works when you're fighting on dirt, and then have to dig out all of the zombies that you just buried, and don't have a way to issue orders to the zombies once they're underground, you're good. I'm not sure what this accomplishes that simply beating on the opponent once they're pinned doesn't also do. But for that niche of opponents who are easy to grapple but hard to kill - regenerators, perhaps? - this definitely has some application.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Again, this whole setup is invalid because the wolverine zombie can't burrow without its limbs and if you try to move them into a hazardous position they get a free check to escape with a +4 bonus. That's all assuming the mindless zombie can hear your (somehow) simple instructions from underground (where you insist it's still airtight with no tunnel) to carry them out