[3.5] 0-Level Gestalt Idea

[Thurbane]

So, this may be a stupid idea, but I have a fondness for the old "starting at 0 level" optional rules from earlier editions.

To simulate this in 3.5, I was wondering: what if every character started off as one of the NPC classes (Adept, Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, Magewright or Warrior), and upon levelling up to 2nd level, they took a regular PC class, and it gets gestalted with their single level in an NPC class?

For example, Bob starts off as an Expert 1; on levelling up, he becomes an Expert 1//Wizard 1. As he continues to level up, he reatains his single gestalt level of expert, so might eventually wind up as an Expert 1//Wizard 20.

On achieving their first PC class level, characters get an immediate free "retrain" of level 1 skill points (using gestalt rules, so skills from either class, using the best number of skill points), and their first level feats, if they wish. 1st level HP are recalculated, if required, and the character takes the best BAB and saves from both classes for level 1. From level 2 onward, the NPC class skills are considered cros-class, as per normal multi-classing rules (though Able Learner would apply as normal, if the character chose that feat).

The gestalt level is not considered in the characters ECL, so the Expert 1//Wizard 1 above is considered a level 1 character in all aspects. When he is an Expert 1//Wizard 5, he is considered a level 5 character.

As well as re-creating the "level 0" feel, this would also benefit characters in expanding their available skills at first level, armor/weapon proficiencies, and access to a spell list where applicable.

So what do you think: good idea, or madness?

Is there things I've failed to consider?

Cheers - T

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thurbane
...I have a fondness for the old "starting at 0 level" optional rules from earlier editions.

I never actually played with those rules, but I do love the basic concept.

That said, what you're describing here seems a little too involved for the benefits. That may just because I don't use gestalt, so take that with a little sea salt.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Expert is a great 1st level gestalt dip that can add tons of value to a full BAB class or any class that gets 2 base skill points/level. Warrior is a great 1st level gestalt dip that can give BAB to a 3/4 or 1/2 class, and grants proficiency in martial weapons plus "all armor and shields" which technically includes the exotic armors and shields. Aristocrat starting money can roll high enough to get breastplate or a masterwork weapon, it gets the same proficiencies as Warrior, and the skills and Will save aren't bad at all. Adept or Magewright can be useful for meeting prerequisites, such as Dweomerkeeper's divine and arcane entry requirement. Commoner can take special flaws like chicken infested.

I think this adds about the same amount of value to just about any character, provided they make a smart choice that will often feel like the opposite of what they're actually going to play.

[Toliudar]

That seems eminently workable and fun to me. Also gives some much-needed flexibility to the first PC level, once they get there. Lovely!

[Endarire]

If you use this idea, I recommend saying that your first PC class level is a gestalt and a respec of the NPC class level. What if your first PC class level has higher HP or BAB?

[Thurbane]

If you use this idea, I recommend saying that your first PC class level is a gestalt and a respec of the NPC class level. What if your first PC class level has higher HP or BAB?

Well, yes, that was entirely the intention - sorry if I didn't make that clear. Probably could have been clearer.

Once you have your first PC class level, you are entirely a gestalt character NPC 1//PC 1. You get the best BAB, saves, HD, skill points and access to skills from both lists.

So yes, your hp (along with skills points etc.) may increase retrospectively. In essence, you rebuild the character as a true level 1 gestalt.

[paddyfool]

I like this idea.

Would you adopt this ruling re Prestige classes with this light touch use of Gestalt? "Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters." https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm . Personally, I wouldn't bother; I wouldn't be too worried about easier entry for Eldritch Knight, since it's fun but not exactly gamebreaking, and it's not like you're getting enough spellcasting out of a gestalt level in Adept to make any difference to a Theurge. But if someone did want to rule against easier PrC access, they could always rule against using the gestalt level for prereqs, perhaps.

[Epic Legand]

A lot depends on how long you expect the game to last. If it peters out by 6th, it would run great, but this will further increase the martial vs caster imbalance. A couple of examples....A thief or warrior gets to add better BAB or skills to thier concept, now its a better well rounded concept. A mage gets to massively bump HP and BAB or Skills, this is fine at 3ed level...a 3ed level wizard sucks. at 10th level, that wizard is already running the game, and now no longer needs anything from the martials....and if your answer is the martial can just add in caster...then you are agreeing with me, that caster trumps all. Next compare an Adapt/wizard vs a fighter/expert or rouge/warrior...any thoughts as to which is better by 10th?

If you are running only low level, this will be fine, but each level up from 5th on will only further highlight the caster over the martial.

[Quentinas]

Well in italian there is a book called "Manuale dei Livelli infimi" that basically create 4 level before level 1 that summed should give the characteristics of a level 1 character for example the 4 levels that are before the barbarian gives
At first level 4+ con hitpoints, illiteracy
At second level 3 hitpoints, half of fast movement and +1 on fortitude
At third level 2 hitpoints and nothing else
At fourth level 3 hitpoint +1 of base attack and a lesser version of the rage +1 of fortitude
After the fourth level each thing upgrade to the normal barbarian 1° level

[nedz]

Well in italian there is a book called "Manuale dei Livelli infimi" that basically create 4 level before level 1 that summed should give the characteristics of a level 1 character for example the 4 levels that are before the barbarian gives
At first level 4+ con hitpoints, illiteracy
At second level 3 hitpoints, half of fast movement and +1 on fortitude
At third level 2 hitpoints and nothing else
At fourth level 3 hitpoint +1 of base attack and a lesser version of the rage +1 of fortitude
After the fourth level each thing upgrade to the normal barbarian 1° level

I once looked into this idea. It gives better character definition for multi-class characters, but it's quite fiddly.

[Thurbane]

A lot depends on how long you expect the game to last. If it peters out by 6th, it would run great, but this will further increase the martial vs caster imbalance. A couple of examples....A thief or warrior gets to add better BAB or skills to thier concept, now its a better well rounded concept. A mage gets to massively bump HP and BAB or Skills, this is fine at 3ed level...a 3ed level wizard sucks. at 10th level, that wizard is already running the game, and now no longer needs anything from the martials....and if your answer is the martial can just add in caster...then you are agreeing with me, that caster trumps all. Next compare an Adapt/wizard vs a fighter/expert or rouge/warrior...any thoughts as to which is better by 10th?

If you are running only low level, this will be fine, but each level up from 5th on will only further highlight the caster over the martial.

I can see your concerns, but for my table, we are fairly low-op group, and the majority of our adventuring takes place under level 9 or so.

So while I acknowledge your points, they wouldn't be a big deal in my own group. This is a group where Monks have actually outshone Druids, so I think we're OK. :smallbiggrin:

[lylsyly]

Back in the day I started virtually every campaign I ran with some variation on the old "Treasure Hunt" module so yes, I think it's a great idea.

Even now when our group runs a gestalt game we commonly also gestalt in the racial paragon classes for an added boost.

[liquidformat]

I have played in a few games that have done this or similar. The other variants I have seen is jumping to a real class at 500xp that replaces your npc class or just treating the npc level as a level 0 which ends up slightly screwy.
If like in what you are suggesting only have one level of gestalt while yes it can make it easier to get into a few NPCs it isn't a dramatic game changer and most of the ones it helps with are things like arcane Archer... The Theurge classes are really not helped by a one level gestalt of adept/magewrite.

[Thurbane]

A separate, lower powered option I've been toying with, is to give all PCs 4 bonus points at 1st level, which can be spent on a single Craft, Perform, Profession or Knowledge skill, to represent their background and learning.

This skill remains a class skill throughout their levels (so Craft, Perform, Profession, or Knowledge [X]). To keep it on the lower power spectrum, I was considering limiting Knowledges to the lesser used ones (i.e. not related to creature types): Architecture and Engineering, Geography, History or Nobility and Royalty.

[sreservoir]

A lot depends on how long you expect the game to last. If it peters out by 6th, it would run great, but this will further increase the martial vs caster imbalance. A couple of examples....A thief or warrior gets to add better BAB or skills to thier concept, now its a better well rounded concept. A mage gets to massively bump HP and BAB or Skills, this is fine at 3ed level...a 3ed level wizard sucks. at 10th level, that wizard is already running the game, and now no longer needs anything from the martials....and if your answer is the martial can just add in caster...then you are agreeing with me, that caster trumps all. Next compare an Adapt/wizard vs a fighter/expert or rouge/warrior...any thoughts as to which is better by 10th?

What is the wizard even getting out of the 1st-level gestalt at level 10? It's just baseline wizard dominance rearing its head here: you could just as well compare wizard 10//nothing to the fighter 10//expert 1 and rogue 10//warrior 1 and still have the wizard is still coming out ahead.

[liquidformat]

What is the wizard even getting out of the 1st-level gestalt at level 10? It's just baseline wizard dominance rearing its head here: you could just as well compare wizard 10//nothing to the fighter 10//expert 1 and rogue 10//warrior 1 and still have the wizard is still coming out ahead.

It could have a slight impact if you are gishing since that would allow you to enter your PRC slightly sooner or with less hoops to jump through since you now have martial weapon prof and an extra point of BAB.