Escaping a Dead Magic Plane and similar

[Jowgen]

High level magic can render one virtually unkillable in a variety of ways, from your basic chain contingecy true resurrection/unbind/time stop to cheesing Hide Life.

But one might always end up running into a Garlic Jr scenario, where one's enemies somehow manage to get one into a very difficult to escape from situation.

The basic Nightmare scenario I posit is a room made of walls of Force, on a dead magic plane, with the room also having Sigils of Antimagic or some other additional AMF effect applied to them (i.e. as to counter planar bubble & acorn)

Now Initiate of Mystra seems like the best bet, but that is really darn specific.

Invoke Magic could do it, but in terms of 4th level or lower spells (or even 5th if you cheese the level down via sanctum), the only thing I know that actually lets you jump planes is Lesser Planar Exchange, which I'm not sure can be broken in a way that'll let you avoid the return.

So, any thoughts/suggestion on how to escape the prison or alternatively make it even more secure?

[Doctor Despair]

The basic Nightmare scenario I posit is a room made of walls of Force, on a dead magic plane, with the room also having Sigils of Antimagic or some other additional AMF effect applied to them (i.e. as to counter planar bubble & acorn)

Invoke Magic could do it, but in terms of 4th level or lower spells (or even 5th if you cheese the level down via sanctum), the only thing I know that actually lets you jump planes is Lesser Planar Exchange, which I'm not sure can be broken in a way that'll let you avoid the return.

So, any thoughts/suggestion on how to escape the prison or alternatively make it even more secure?

Without researching further spells of that level for this exercise, you could use Craft: Contingent Spell to make a spell contingent upon arriving in that animal's home plane. Off the top of my head, you could make a clone of some sort (not sure how the casting time interacts with the contingent spell, but maybe you could shorten the casting time) and have the clone rescue you with further spellcasting. Perhaps if you had another Lesser Planar Exchange activate, you would ultimately be returned to the home plane of the first creature, the first creature would end up in the home of the second creature, and the second creature would live out its days in the AMF prison. I'm sure there are other options, but contingent magic is very difficult to do anything about.

[sreservoir]

Phone a friend to Gate you out? Or better, the "transport travelers" function of Wish pretty explicitly works, "regardless of local conditions."

[Doctor Despair]

Or better, the "transport travelers" function of Wish pretty explicitly works, "regardless of local conditions."

Can you actually cast Wish though? No doubt Wish would work if you are able to cast it, even if they had any number of anti-teleportation measures in place, but wouldn't the anti-magic and dead-magic effects stifle your ability to access the weave to cast it in the first place?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

First of all, the dead magic planar trait would also shut down your walls of force (as they couldn't have been cast in the first place) and any other dimensional anchor or similar effects.

Invoke Magic + Sanctum Dismissal yourself off the plane is pretty much guaranteed to work.


A long time ago I'd made a character with a literally unkillable minion. I was a Dread Necromancer who'd rebuked/commanded a Half-Golem Curst, which I was able to do as they're specifically only immune to turn/rebuke undead attempts by clerics and paladins and my character was neither of those. Being half-golem made it immune to Remove Curse, so it could always just regenerate back from anything that could have done it in. Eventually we fought an enemy who made the ground split open under its feet, it fell deep into the ground, and the opponent then made the ground close back up again, trapping it immobile forever.

So I'd say a more secure means of trapping someone is to use Imprisonment while they're under the effect of a Mind Blank in a fairly remote and unexplored area. Then use Move Earth or similar to make a perfectly mundane hill completely covering the locale where Freedom could be cast to free them, remote and unexplored enough that nobody would be familiar enough with the area to know it suddenly appeared. Then go to a completely different place and stage the battle in which they were Imprisoned, then go to the nearest tavern and brag about Imprisoning the victim in that locale where it was staged. The Mind Blank gets its duration paused while they're Imprisoned, so Discern Location, Miracle, and Wish can't reveal their location. Mundane Gather Information checks, regardless of how high the results, will only reveal the area where you staged the battle, not the true location.

[Doctor Despair]

So I'd say a more secure means of trapping someone is to use Imprisonment while they're under the effect of a Mind Blank in a fairly remote and unexplored area. Then use Move Earth or similar to make a perfectly mundane hill completely covering the locale where Freedom could be cast to free them, remote and unexplored enough that nobody would be familiar enough with the area to know it suddenly appeared. Then go to a completely different place and stage the battle in which they were Imprisoned, then go to the nearest tavern and brag about Imprisoning the victim in that locale where it was staged. The Mind Blank gets its duration paused while they're Imprisoned, so Discern Location, Miracle, and Wish can't reveal their location. Mundane Gather Information checks, regardless of how high the results, will only reveal the area where you staged the battle, not the true location.

Doesn't help with Metafaculty. :/

Better yet, use Craft Contingent Spell to put all your imprisonment effects on the target creature (as well as Mind Blank, sure) pending their return from applying the God Blooded of Vecna template. Then, dominate or Mindrape the target to force them to apply the God Blooded of Vecna template, thus erasing all knowledge of them from the world, and then upon their return, the contingent magic will imprison them in whatever method you prefer. No one will know to use Metafaculty to find them, so we should be safe there.

Edit:

With that said, I'm not sure, at the level of optimization we're discussion, that opposing crafted contingent spells wouldn't stop us long before then. :p

[Telonius]

There is one potential loophole available in the description of Dead Magic Planes:


The only exception to the “no magic” rule is permanent planar portals, which still function normally.

So, depending on the nature of what those "permanent planar portals" are, you could potentially have an out.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Doesn't help with Metafaculty. :/

Metafaculty doesn't give away their exact location, just their place of residence and whatever that place is called, so likely just the name of whatever area where they were imprisoned but nothing more specific. If you know they've been Imprisoned somewhere thereabout and cast Freedom all over the place it won't work. You would need to pick out one specific hill in a hilly wilderness area, remove that particular hill first, and stand where it was when casting Freedom, but you'll have no way of knowing you would need to do that.

[RaiKirah]

Antimagic Fields (and Dead Planes which use the rules of Anitmagic Zones) don't effect anything that is outside of it, so if you can have a part of you permanently somewhere else, but able to activate spells or abilities, you can possibly (RAW's a bit beyond my grasp here I suspect) get yourself out. Things that might qualify: Half of a Dvati pair, Disembodied Hand Invocation, Crawling Eye Invocation, an Animated Object of a Clone, probably others.

[Endarire]

If you could somehow use a planar ally or planar binding spell to have something get you out, that would work.

Also, a plain plane shift is a level 5 spell when cast by Clerics or Nar Demonbinders.

[Venger]

High level magic can render one virtually unkillable in a variety of ways, from your basic chain contingecy true resurrection/unbind/time stop to cheesing Hide Life.

But one might always end up running into a Garlic Jr scenario, where one's enemies somehow manage to get one into a very difficult to escape from situation.

The basic Nightmare scenario I posit is a room made of walls of Force, on a dead magic plane, with the room also having Sigils of Antimagic or some other additional AMF effect applied to them (i.e. as to counter planar bubble & acorn)

Now Initiate of Mystra seems like the best bet, but that is really darn specific.

Invoke Magic could do it, but in terms of 4th level or lower spells (or even 5th if you cheese the level down via sanctum), the only thing I know that actually lets you jump planes is Lesser Planar Exchange, which I'm not sure can be broken in a way that'll let you avoid the return.

So, any thoughts/suggestion on how to escape the prison or alternatively make it even more secure?


First of all, the dead magic planar trait would also shut down your walls of force (as they couldn't have been cast in the first place) and any other dimensional anchor or similar effects.
Assuming nonmagical walls of force somehow to adhere to the spirit of the challenge (basically escape from a force effect and hostile plane without magic) a dc 120 escape artist check will let you phase through a wall of force. From that point, aside from the other suggestions people have left, you can wait until some cool monster like a demon or similar (preferably with swallow whole) ends up here and gets stuck, explain your proposition, have it eat you, and wait for it to be called by planar ally or similar. If it or you have some way of seeing this in advance due to precognition before the fact, setting something up in advance, or an anticipate teleportation like effect, you can have him do it the round before so you are alive. If not, he can spit your corpse out when you get there and you can be rez'd.


So I'd say a more secure means of trapping someone is to use Imprisonment while they're under the effect of a Mind Blank in a fairly remote and unexplored area. Then use Move Earth or similar to make a perfectly mundane hill completely covering the locale where Freedom could be cast to free them, remote and unexplored enough that nobody would be familiar enough with the area to know it suddenly appeared. Then go to a completely different place and stage the battle in which they were Imprisoned, then go to the nearest tavern and brag about Imprisoning the victim in that locale where it was staged. The Mind Blank gets its duration paused while they're Imprisoned, so Discern Location, Miracle, and Wish can't reveal their location. Mundane Gather Information checks, regardless of how high the results, will only reveal the area where you staged the battle, not the true location.
While the target would not be vulnerable to direct divinations, when all attempts failed, anyone who wanted to free him would probably stumble along a line of questioning roughly analogous to "who was the last person to see him before his disappearance?" and then learn about your guy's whereabouts to discern the real location.

Much like bardic knowledge, there is no requirement for anyone to actually know the information in question for a gather information check. You just hit the dc and it works, same as you can know the childhood nickname of a person you have never met, so I don't think that half of the plan would work.


Antimagic Fields (and Dead Planes which use the rules of Anitmagic Zones) don't effect anything that is outside of it, so if you can have a part of you permanently somewhere else, but able to activate spells or abilities, you can possibly (RAW's a bit beyond my grasp here I suspect) get yourself out. Things that might qualify: Half of a Dvati pair, Disembodied Hand Invocation, Crawling Eye Invocation, an Animated Object of a Clone, probably others.
Hide life would probably work as well, assuming the piece of you with your life in it was elsewhere.

As far as permanent imprisonment of a target goes, I would probably suggest something like tricking them into taking the vecna-blooded template by telling them about all the cool powers it gives them and giving them some kind of triggerable activated items that flip on once they've become vecna-blooded (since you'll forget about them once the template applies) that will double polymorph them into an inanimate object like a ring or preferably something like a copper piece or mote of dust. You can then never accidentally give up information about this person's whereabouts under torture/telepathy/mindrape/etc because neither you nor anyone else actually know it.

[Bullet06320]

Invoke Magic could do it, but in terms of 4th level or lower spells (or even 5th if you cheese the level down via sanctum), the only thing I know that actually lets you jump planes is Lesser Planar Exchange, which I'm not sure can be broken in a way that'll let you avoid the return.


lesser planer exchange is a calling spell, so you could set up a specific eligible critter ahead of time that could be called, you would have to give it an item of some sort that can cast lesser planar exchange or some other plane shifting magic, so you end up with a 3 way shift or just a one way where u end up where the called creature started

Elminster's evasion from FRCS might come in handy

[Venger]

It would probably stop you from getting imprisoned here in the first place, but assuming you got dumped here somehow, wouldn't it be suppressed in a dead magic plane? Or would "when I am about to enter a dead magic zone" be a valid condition and it would just activate before the kidnapper brought you here?

[unseenmage]

Have Planar Ring Gates and wear one as a piercing. There, now part of you is always on another (hopefully magically active) plane.

Get real good at making PF technology which has the same effects and pricing as magic, but isnt.
Or Ravenloft Devices tech.
Or Gnome Artificer devices.
Or Ethergaunt tech.

Are psionics magic for this scenario?

Is Iron Heart Surge blocked by antimagic?


My personal fav solution here is Ravenloft device version of Craft Contingent Wish to repair the dead magic zone. Because magitech steampunk of an intangible magic item means injections probably.

[Venger]

IHS is ex, so functions normally in an amf or similar.

[RaiKirah]

A Soulknife or Soulbow with three levels of Kensai can add the Banishing weapon enhancement to their Mind Weapon, which can be created in an Anti Psionics field (magic/Psionics transparency makes this equivalent to the OPs setup) and used to banish yourself back to your home plane.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Iron Heart Surge can't end a dead magic planar trait, just like it can't make mundane rain stop, or make the sun stop shining.

[Doctor Despair]

Iron Heart Surge can't end a dead magic planar trait, just like it can't make mundane rain stop, or make the sun stop shining.

Don't you dare start that debate again :eek:

[Thunder999]

Create a simulacrum of yourself (or simply have a reliable ally in the form of a cohort, party member etc.), leave them a scroll of wish, use invoke magic to cast sending and ask them to wish you out.
If we pick the simulacrum then everything here can be done by a single character and their spells.

Oh and what exactly is stopping you preparing a clone in advance and just killing yourself?

[KoDT69]

This whole premise points out the entire wizard bias in the design. They give the wizard a spell that overcomes literally every obstacle.

AMF - Sure makes sense you use your magic to suppress other people's magic. Fair enough.

Dead Magic Zone - Sounds like it should be "no magic works here" but that's not even close. Invoke Magic is a spell that lets you cast a spell on a dead Magic Zone... But it doesn't make sense for the spell to work since it's you know, a dead Magic Zone. Of the very few things that I won't accept, this is one of them. Dead magic is exactly that. Unless you are a deity then you're SOL.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

This whole premise points out the entire wizard bias in the design. They give the wizard a spell that overcomes literally every obstacle.

AMF - Sure makes sense you use your magic to suppress other people's magic. Fair enough.

Dead Magic Zone - Sounds like it should be "no magic works here" but that's not even close. Invoke Magic is a spell that lets you cast a spell on a dead Magic Zone... But it doesn't make sense for the spell to work since it's you know, a dead Magic Zone. Of the very few things that I won't accept, this is one of them. Dead magic is exactly that. Unless you are a deity then you're SOL.

Initiate of Mystra is even more egregious.

[unseenmage]

This whole premise points out the entire wizard bias in the design. They give the wizard a spell that overcomes literally every obstacle.

AMF - Sure makes sense you use your magic to suppress other people's magic. Fair enough.

Dead Magic Zone - Sounds like it should be "no magic works here" but that's not even close. Invoke Magic is a spell that lets you cast a spell on a dead Magic Zone... But it doesn't make sense for the spell to work since it's you know, a dead Magic Zone. Of the very few things that I won't accept, this is one of them. Dead magic is exactly that. Unless you are a deity then you're SOL.

Should... should we tell them that Dead Magic Zones just inherit from Antimagic Field.

Or that depending on the origin of the spell, the point where it's magical effect actually occurs, and the line of effect in between an Antimagic Field might not even stop regular spells?
(There was an old thread on the subject. IIRC by the time the dust had settled it had been revealed that Antimagoc Field ain't all its cracked up to be. Dispelling Screen FTW. :) )

[KoDT69]

I am fully aware of the Initiate of Mystra. At the very least, THAT whole God of Magic backing the caster is a lot better justification.

I am also aware that AMF is a spell and how it works. I'm fine with that because it's a wonky spell and not overpowered as much as other things you can do instead. But saying a Planar Trait that says "magic doesn't work here" as decided by the deity that created said plane, should not be considered the same as a pedestrian arcane spell. Sorry, you don't have to agree, but if I say Dead Magic Zone, then it means that. I would say Anti-Magic Field if that's what I meant. Now this entire situation, I've been through 3 times, with 3 DM's, none of which ever discussed but played as I would in my 26 years playing. And it can be a positive thing as well if you think about it.

[Brackenlord]

If you have acess to Invoke Magic my favorite method is targetting yourself with Shadow Well from Spell Compendium, it is a 4th level Illusion that transports one creature to a pocket realm in the Plane of Shadow for 1 round/level, it specifically allows scape within the duration with Plane Shift or similar.

[Doctor Despair]

If you have acess to Invoke Magic my favorite method is targetting yourself with Shadow Well from Spell Compendium, it is a 4th level Illusion that transports one creature to a pocket realm in the Plane of Shadow for 1 round/level, it specifically allows scape within the duration with Plane Shift or similar.

Well, that's /thread. Absolutely minimal investment for a character with access to Invoke Magic. Preparing spells isn't magical, iirc, so even if you don't have it prepared, you can escape in 8 hours minimum. Nice find!

[Telonius]

Well, that's /thread. Absolutely minimal investment for a character with access to Invoke Magic. Preparing spells isn't magical, iirc, so even if you don't have it prepared, you can escape in 8 hours minimum. Nice find!

It does have an expensive material component (a 1k gp diamond), but as long as you have that, you should be fine.

I'm not sure that you'd be able to prepare from a spellbook in a dead-magic area, since spellbooks are normally magical items and might not function. It seems like a bit of a DM call, but if it's an issue, the Spell Mastery feat lets you prepare without a spellbook. (Or, be a Sorcerer and don't worry about preparation).

[Ruethgar]

Be a Shadow Weave Magic caster. That ignores the Dead Magic no matter the source, antimagic, not so much.

Of course Ravenloft has Gate as an Ex ability via devices.

Your Mirror Mephit familiar obviously granted you DR to just Alter Reality at will.

[Jowgen]

If you have acess to Invoke Magic my favorite method is targetting yourself with Shadow Well from Spell Compendium, it is a 4th level Illusion that transports one creature to a pocket realm in the Plane of Shadow for 1 round/level, it specifically allows scape within the duration with Plane Shift or similar.

*Applause*

[Quentinas]

The only problem is if that plane isn't connected to the Shadow plane, for example the Mirror plane or something similar

[Jack_Simth]

High level magic can render one virtually unkillable in a variety of ways, from your basic chain contingecy true resurrection/unbind/time stop to cheesing Hide Life.

But one might always end up running into a Garlic Jr scenario, where one's enemies somehow manage to get one into a very difficult to escape from situation.

The basic Nightmare scenario I posit is a room made of walls of Force, on a dead magic plane, with the room also having Sigils of Antimagic or some other additional AMF effect applied to them (i.e. as to counter planar bubble & acorn)

Now Initiate of Mystra seems like the best bet, but that is really darn specific.

Invoke Magic could do it, but in terms of 4th level or lower spells (or even 5th if you cheese the level down via sanctum), the only thing I know that actually lets you jump planes is Lesser Planar Exchange, which I'm not sure can be broken in a way that'll let you avoid the return.

So, any thoughts/suggestion on how to escape the prison or alternatively make it even more secure?

The trick is to prepare in advance.

Suppose I have a minion elsewhere, who's capable of casting both Commune and Wish. A simulacrum of a Solar, say. It has orders:
Every <Time Interval>, it uses Commune to find out if I'm trapped.
If I am trapped, it's to use it's Wish to transport me back to <specific prepared demiplane, NOT the one the sim is on>

There's a ton of extra stuff you layer on top of that (multiple such sims, sims are mind-blanked on planar travel locked demiplanes, you've got some set up to get a Freedom casting Initiate of Mystra to you under certain circumstances, et cetera), but that's the 'basic' out for such a thing.

[Crake]

If you have acess to Invoke Magic my favorite method is targetting yourself with Shadow Well from Spell Compendium, it is a 4th level Illusion that transports one creature to a pocket realm in the Plane of Shadow for 1 round/level, it specifically allows scape within the duration with Plane Shift or similar.

Is there not a clause somewhere stating that spells and effects that interact with the plane of shadow or the ethereal plane only function on the material plane, since those planes are all coexistent? You cannot, for example, ethereal jaunt or shadow walk while on the outer planes?

Fake Edit: Ah, here it is, page 151 of the DMG: "The Outer Planes are coexistent with the Astral Plane. They are separate from the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow, so certain spells (ethereal jaunt, for example) aren’t available to a caster on the Outer Planes."

So it would depend on where this dead magic plane is located in the cosmology, shadow well may not be usable.

[Jowgen]

Is there not a clause somewhere stating that spells and effects that interact with the plane of shadow or the ethereal plane only function on the material plane, since those planes are all coexistent? You cannot, for example, ethereal jaunt or shadow walk while on the outer planes?

Fake Edit: Ah, here it is, page 151 of the DMG: "The Outer Planes are coexistent with the Astral Plane. They are separate from the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow, so certain spells (ethereal jaunt, for example) aren’t available to a caster on the Outer Planes."

So it would depend on where this dead magic plane is located in the cosmology, shadow well may not be usable.

MotP expands upon this, giving a list of "Planar Spells" on p. 32 and more specifically a list of spells that don't work if there's no plane of shadow on p. 62.

Shadow Well is not on that list, and since MotP was published September 2001 while Shadow Well first appeared in Magic of Faerun in August 2001, it not being mentioned could be seen as a RAW argument that the spell thus not falls under this rule. :smallwink:

On a more practical/serious note, the spirit of the rule is to address issues with spells like Blink, Ethreal Jaunt and Shadow walk; i.e. spells that rely on you being on a coterminous plane to the one in question to adjucate tactical and strategic distance. Shadow Well does not fit that bill, and there's a bunch of other stuff that makes it unlikely that it should be contrained by this.

First, rather than using the shadow proper, it creates a "gateway" to a "pocket realm" that happens to be nestled in the shadow much like a lot of demiplanes are nestled in the ethreal. So a) if "pocket realm" is to be taken interchangeable to Demiplane (supported by teleport not being a valid escape option), it is technically not the plane of shadow, and b) the Spell creates an actual "gateway" to the plane, which is something that magic can do regardless of coterminous/coexistent-ness.

[Crake]

MotP expands upon this, giving a list of "Planar Spells" on p. 32 and more specifically a list of spells that don't work if there's no plane of shadow on p. 62.

Shadow Well is not on that list, and since MotP was published September 2001 while Shadow Well first appeared in Magic of Faerun in August 2001, it not being mentioned could be seen as a RAW argument that the spell thus not falls under this rule. :smallwink:

On a more practical/serious note, the spirit of the rule is to address issues with spells like Blink, Ethreal Jaunt and Shadow walk; i.e. spells that rely on you being on a coterminous plane to the one in question to adjucate tactical and strategic distance. Shadow Well does not fit that bill, and there's a bunch of other stuff that makes it unlikely that it should be contrained by this.

First, rather than using the shadow proper, it creates a "gateway" to a "pocket realm" that happens to be nestled in the shadow much like a lot of demiplanes are nestled in the ethreal. So a) if "pocket realm" is to be taken interchangeable to Demiplane (supported by teleport not being a valid escape option), it is technically not the plane of shadow, and b) the Spell creates an actual "gateway" to the plane, which is something that magic can do regardless of coterminous/coexistent-ness.

Hmm, I can see that as a fair argument.