best thing to true polymorph dragon into

[kingcheesepants]

Picture this situation, the party is fighting an ancient red dragon. They've dealt with the minions and have made the dragon use up his legendary resistances, the wizard still has his level 9 spell slot and true polymorph prepared as well as a portent of 1. What should the dragon be turned into? A painting of the party fighting him? A sword of dragon slaying? A pig (which the party will then turn into bacon)?

[greenstone]

A rock.

Which the party then throws into the nearest ocean or the nearest party (depending on how pragmatic they are).

[smp4life]

You can't true polymorph a creature into a magic item. I like the painting idea though. That's tight.

[Valmark]

The pig thing would end hilariously for your party given that the dragon would turn back when you killed the pig.

I liked the rock idea, it's the one with less chance of you getting screwed- hardly anything will damage the rock and even if it does come back you just need a deep enough ocean that the dragon will drown into it.

Another option is turn it into into something fragile like a potted plant, then teleport WAAAAY up in the sky and drop it. Kill it with the excess damage from the fall.

[Cicciograna]

Another option is turn it into into something fragile like a potted plant, then teleport WAAAAY up in the sky and drop it. Kill it with the excess damage from the fall.

I suggest a bowl of petunias. Do that more than once for additional fun.

[Monster Manuel]

While there's not a lot of need for money at the kinds of levels we're talking about, you could polymorph the dragon into a life-size platinum statue of that dragon.

True Polymorph doesn't have the clause about the nonmagical object having not being valuable, nor anything about what happens to pieces of that object.

A Gargantuan dragon, turned into a Gargantuan statue of platinum, can absorb a lot of HP of damage before being destroyed and turning back into a dragon. According to the Object HP rules in the DMG, each "large" section of the Huge statue could endure 5d10 points of damage. Platinum is worth 500 gp per pound, and a cubic foot of platinum weighs about 160 pounds. A Gargantuan statue occupies a space of 20X20. As long as you're careful about how much you chip off and melt down, you could mine an awful lot of cash out of that dragon, without waking it up.

Again, by the time you're slinging True Polymorph you probably don't care (you also have access to an Ancient dragon's hoard, so you're not hurting for cash). But it's not unreasonable to assume you can chip away 5 square feet of platinum without doing enough damage to destroy the statue, and that nets you an extra 400,000 gold, which is probably enough to destabilize the world economy, so, not an unreasonable result for 20th level characters.

[da newt]

If I remember correctly, max fall damage is 20d6 which will average out to 70 hp - which your dragon will shrug off and then rejoin the fight.


What is the party's goal? Do you HAVE to kill the Dragon or just incapacitate it until you can get away (1 hr spell duration)?

I like turning stuff into barnicles or oysters - they are harmless, fairly tough (so they don't mistakenly get 'killed' back into their true form) and just about immobile.

[Willie the Duck]

Something really long-lived that would have no reason to not want to be this new thing? "You're now an elf farmer. Here's 100 GP and a really nice plot of land. Go have yourself just the best farmer life possible for a couple centuries. And remember, if someone asks you if you want to become and ancient red dragon, think about what apparently happens to ancient red dragons."

[kingcheesepants]

The goal is to turn the dragon into something cool and perhaps ironic, really showcase our dominance type of thing. If we wanted to just kill him we could use normal polymorph and then disintegrate (which bypasses the revert back to original form and takes the creature straight to dead).
So while something like turning him into a rock is certainly practical it isn't really what I'm thinking of. A giant platinum statue might fit the bill though.
My reading of the rules regarding true polymorph is that once the spell is permanent the transformed creature won't revert back unless the spell is dispelled (i.e. through dispel magic or another similar magical effect). Thus once permanency is achieved the creature doesn't revert even when killed. Although reading the description again I would admit that while this may be a possible interpretation, saying that bringing the new form down to 0 dispels the transformation is probably what most DMs would rule. I guess that brings up the question of lifespan though. If we turned it into a mayfly or something and it dies of old age after a day does it still revert to being a dragon? Usually death by aging is not treated the same as death by injury, so it might be worth a look at. Maybe I can have him as a pet rabbit or something and then he'll just die of old age but I can have my ancient red dragon rabbit for a few years as a curio.

[kingcheesepants]

Something really long-lived that would have no reason to not want to be this new thing? "You're now an elf farmer. Here's 100 GP and a really nice plot of land. Go have yourself just the best farmer life possible for a couple centuries. And remember, if someone asks you if you want to become and ancient red dragon, think about what apparently happens to ancient red dragons."

Oh I didn't notice this one while writing my reply just now. I really like this idea too. Although it does raise the question of death by old age and the question of intentionally bringing yourself down to 0 HP in order to revert back to dragon form.

[nickl_2000]

I would go the art route myself. However, I would change the dragon into a platinum/mythril/adamatine statue. Due to the material it is insanely valuable and you could go with an ironic pose at the same time.

The only issue is transporting something so heavy.

[KorvinStarmast]

A rock. Which the party then throws into the nearest ocean or the nearest party (depending on how pragmatic they are). I'd make sure to take it to the deepest part of the ocean and then throw the rock in. Take a few days for the sailing trip, have a few cocktails along the way, and make an event out of it. :smallsmile:

[Sigreid]

Turn him into a chamber pot and sell/give it to a brothel.

[Valmark]

Something really long-lived that would have no reason to not want to be this new thing? "You're now an elf farmer. Here's 100 GP and a really nice plot of land. Go have yourself just the best farmer life possible for a couple centuries. And remember, if someone asks you if you want to become and ancient red dragon, think about what apparently happens to ancient red dragons."
I would never trust the dragon to obey the party, honestly.

The goal is to turn the dragon into something cool and perhaps ironic, really showcase our dominance type of thing. If we wanted to just kill him we could use normal polymorph and then disintegrate (which bypasses the revert back to original form and takes the creature straight to dead).

My reading of the rules regarding true polymorph is that once the spell is permanent the transformed creature won't revert back unless the spell is dispelled (i.e. through dispel magic or another similar magical effect). Thus once permanency is achieved the creature doesn't revert even when killed. Although reading the description again I would admit that while this may be a possible interpretation, saying that bringing the new form down to 0 dispels the transformation is probably what most DMs would rule.

I guess that brings up the question of lifespan though. If we turned it into a mayfly or something and it dies of old age after a day does it still revert to being a dragon? Usually death by aging is not treated the same as death by injury, so it might be worth a look at. Maybe I can have him as a pet rabbit or something and then he'll just die of old age but I can have my ancient red dragon rabbit for a few years as a curio.
Up to the DM on the Disintegration thing- it shouldn't bypass the 'revert back to original form' rule- a Polymorphed creature goes back to normal when it goes to 0 hp or dies, and from a strict RAW reading it seems to say that it reverts back to its original state regardless of the method (just wanted to specify this).

The spell may not need the Concentration anymore and become until dispelled, but the text says that the spell ends when it goes to 0 hp etc. So it's again up to the DM to rule it either way.

Old age falls again into the "it dies" clause.

All this to say that anything that isn't a rather tough form is going to be extremely risky for the party- the platinum statue (or other material) makes a lot of sense. I'd still throw it into the ocean, though. Cast Water Breathing and Teleport into it with the statue, or Teleport just the statue depending on how your DM rules it.

It's not as flashy, but in the case the ancient red dragon gets freed you REALLY don't want to leave time for it to prepare its revenge.

[Doug Lampert]

Platinum statue just assures that someone will come along and steal pieces of the statue until it reverts.

I'd consider making it into a similar CR metallic dragon or celestial. You don't actually need the money, and suddenly, it's a powerful force for good.

[Willie the Duck]

I would never trust the dragon to obey the party, honestly.

That is the logic behind making it the happiest, most long-lived dragon possible.

Regardless, if your goal is to showcase our dominance, there aren't a lot of great options that don't involve some risk, since anything that knows that it has been defeated can work to un-defeat themselves.

[da newt]

Assuming you can get all the way to permanent change - I like outhouse, but any object has got to work better than most any creature because creatures can take action.

[Seclora]

Pseudodragon.

Familiar body type, familiar abilities, but an absolute mockery of its former strength and power. Sure, it retains its intelligence, and can even tell people what's going on, but the most important part is, no one will ever believe it. Of course a Pseudodragon would claim to be a powerful red dragon that was mercilessly stripped of its body and turned into this frail thing! Why wouldn't they claim that?

And for a Red Dragon especially, with all their pride and ego, nothing could be worse than being brought within sight of its own majesty and yet completely helpless to recover its former state.

[MaxWilson]

I vote Radiant Idol (from Rising From the Last War), and then you can Planar Bind it and make it give you free healing. (At-will Cure Wounds, among other spells.)

[Edea]

Is "tossing things into the Positive Energy Plane and watching them blow up" still a thing in 5e?

[Valmark]

Is "tossing things into the Positive Energy Plane and watching them blow up" still a thing in 5e?

I don't think its canon anymore- though at my tables it definitely still works. Well, to be fair it's common lore among all campaigns in my group that not only something explodes- it generates two of the originals. But that's homebrew.

It's called the Deer Plane now.

[kingcheesepants]

I'd consider making it into a similar CR metallic dragon or celestial. You don't actually need the money, and suddenly, it's a powerful force for good.
It has the stats (including mental stats) of the new form but it retains it's original alignment and personality. So while this is a nice idea, it won't work with the spell.
And yeah thinking on it a little more I would say that it would most likely be dispelled by hitting 0 HP and return to its orignal body at the HP it had before. But if it were killed without bringing it to 0 first (either by a spell like power word kill, or by old age) it would die and then turn back into a dragon and still be dead, the condition carries over. So anyways with that in consideration I would think that as long as I could make it a creature that can't do too much damage and can ensure that it dies of old age or some other effect that doesn't bring it to 0 first than we don't have to worry about it. To that end the Psuedodragon seems like a good option, although I would probably need to use some form of mind control to make sure it didn't bring itself to 0 at the first opportunity.

[Blood of Gaea]

Just going to point out that turning the Dragon into any creature is likely a bad idea. It'll just commit suicide and turn back into a dragon. Throwing a rock into the ocean is probably the best plan.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

A flea! A harmless little flea. Then put that flea into a box, put that box into another box, mail it to yourself, and when it arrives? Smash it with a hammer!

[Amnestic]

A friend :)

[kazaryu]

Picture this situation, the party is fighting an ancient red dragon. They've dealt with the minions and have made the dragon use up his legendary resistances, the wizard still has his level 9 spell slot and true polymorph prepared as well as a portent of 1. What should the dragon be turned into? A painting of the party fighting him? A sword of dragon slaying? A pig (which the party will then turn into bacon)?

if you're planning to keep it as a momento then you basically have to turn it into something inanimate. if you turn it into any kind of ambulatory creature you run the risk of it suiciding. (remember, it may have that creatures ability scores, but it retains its personality). that especially goes for the farmer idea. you're not going to intimidate a red dragon into staying docile like that. not when it know exactly how to get back to its form.

[kingcheesepants]

A friend :)

If only polymorph could do such a thing. I suppose if I turned him into a dog or something and then treated him well he'd eventually become a good dog. That's something to think about


Just going to point out that turning the Dragon into any creature is likely a bad idea. It'll just commit suicide and turn back into a dragon. Throwing a rock into the ocean is probably the best plan.

Yeah, that's why I specifically mentioned needing to mind control him. Mass suggestion is the only spell I can think of off hand that would actually have enough duration to actually be feasible (default is a day and with a 9th level it becomes a year and a day) I suggest you avoid anything that would likely cause your death or injury. I'm sure I could work on the wording a bit to improve the suggestion but something like that should work. Although if it was an animal with a low enough int it wouldn't have the intelligence needed to actually know to bring itself to 0 in order to become a dragon again.

A flea! A harmless little flea. Then put that flea into a box, put that box into another box, mail it to yourself, and when it arrives? Smash it with a hammer!

I like the idea of mailing it to myself. That just adds an extra layer of humor and humiliation. I think the smashing would probably not work for reasons outlined earlier (namely it would likely break polymorph, though possibly not if the DM was generous)

[Valmark]

Just going to point out that turning the Dragon into any creature is likely a bad idea. It'll just commit suicide and turn back into a dragon. Throwing a rock into the ocean is probably the best plan.

In fact, without the use of planar travel this might the only safe idea. Even turning it into something inanimate without hiding it just begs for someone to either break it or Dispel (Let's keep in mind that a 5th level character will be as good at dispelling it as a 15th or nearly so).

Throwing it into a Demiplane or a plane that would kill it in short order would be even better.

[Monster Manuel]

If only polymorph could do such a thing. I suppose if I turned him into a dog or something and then treated him well he'd eventually become a good dog. That's something to think about

This just opened up an interesting possibility. If you polymorph something into an object, the description specifically says that it retains no memory of being the object. It does not say that for new creature forms so, by inference, the target DOES remember its' time polymorphed into a dog.

If you plymorph the dragon into a dog, and then spend the next year or so taking good care of it, and training it up into a Good Dog, doesn't the dragon remember what it learned as a Very Good Boy? They retain their alignment and personality in the new form, so if the alignment and personality change while in the new form, wouldn't they retain that when they go back to their old form?

Would it not be unreasonable for a well-intentioned but slightly mad archmage to go around True Polymorphing dragons and demon lords into puppies, partnering them with needy children with whom they will form a strong, lifelong bond, and then, at the end of the dog's long, loving life with their human best friend, let them turn back to their monstrous true selves and see what lessons they've learned? How could this possibly go wrong?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I like the idea of mailing it to myself. That just adds an extra layer of humor and humiliation. I think the smashing would probably not work for reasons outlined earlier (namely it would likely break polymorph, though possibly not if the DM was generous)

Or, to save on postage, you could just poison him. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMSHOPkcVv8)

[Blood of Gaea]

This just opened up an interesting possibility. If you polymorph something into an object, the description specifically says that it retains no memory of being the object. It does not say that for new creature forms so, by inference, the target DOES remember its' time polymorphed into a dog.

If you plymorph the dragon into a dog, and then spend the next year or so taking good care of it, and training it up into a Good Dog, doesn't the dragon remember what it learned as a Very Good Boy? They retain their alignment and personality in the new form, so if the alignment and personality change while in the new form, wouldn't they retain that when they go back to their old form?

Would it not be unreasonable for a well-intentioned but slightly mad archmage to go around True Polymorphing dragons and demon lords into puppies, partnering them with needy children with whom they will form a strong, lifelong bond, and then, at the end of the dog's long, loving life with their human best friend, let them turn back to their monstrous true selves and see what lessons they've learned? How could this possibly go wrong?
The dog, deciding with its mind that is still the Dragon's (even if much less intelligent) decides it prefered to be a Dragon, and so jumps off a cliff, turning back into a dragon.

Now, I could see making the arguement that many enemies would not know that a permanent True Polymorph would allow you to turn back on death, but I would not expect an ancient dragon to be ignorant.

[Spriteless]

Keep it simple. Diamonds, used to resurrect one of the Dragon's victims. Then you ask the DM, is being consumed the same as being destroyed? Can we science this question?

[FabulousFizban]

a housecat, which will then be adopted by the party. An eeevil housecat.

[RossN]

Pseudodragon.

Familiar body type, familiar abilities, but an absolute mockery of its former strength and power. Sure, it retains its intelligence, and can even tell people what's going on, but the most important part is, no one will ever believe it. Of course a Pseudodragon would claim to be a powerful red dragon that was mercilessly stripped of its body and turned into this frail thing! Why wouldn't they claim that?

And for a Red Dragon especially, with all their pride and ego, nothing could be worse than being brought within sight of its own majesty and yet completely helpless to recover its former state.

I was just thinking that myself. Themathically it feels great and Pseudodragons are cute.

[Fable Wright]

An origami dragon.

Possibly a Tiny Servant in the form of an origami dragon, if you must have it remember its time in humiliation.

[kingcheesepants]

a housecat, which will then be adopted by the party. An eeevil housecat.

A similar idea to the dog, but without any chance of him ever turning good, after all is there such a thing as a nonevil housecat?


Keep it simple. Diamonds, used to resurrect one of the Dragon's victims. Then you ask the DM, is being consumed the same as being destroyed? Can we science this question?


Interesting to think about, I'm not sure how I would rule that myself. Probably the dragon disappears and is put into the aether.


The dog, deciding with its mind that is still the Dragon's (even if much less intelligent) decides it prefered to be a Dragon, and so jumps off a cliff, turning back into a dragon.

Now, I could see making the arguement that many enemies would not know that a permanent True Polymorph would allow you to turn back on death, but I would not expect an ancient dragon to be ignorant.


The dragon would almost certainly know about polymorph though whether he could as a dog put 2 and 2 together and would overcome the strong resistance to self destruction is another question entirely. We could cast mass suggestion on him just in case but I kinda feel it would most likely be unnecessary.
A dog or a psuedodragon feels like the best option. I like the idea of rehabilitating him as a dog, just humiliating him as a psuedodragon is appealing though. Though the psuedodragon would retain a 10 int which would certainly require management.