Deep gnome Arcane Trickster / Revised Ranger build - Help needed!

[Greenfeuer]

So, I am making an Arcane Trickster/Revised Ranger. = 4x levels rogue, 1x Revised Ranger.. We are starting at level 5, so yeah, thats why the odd number :)

This gnome character is from a former campaign in a Warhammer 4th edition game, so this is an attempt to emulate that characters original design, so please focus on the stats more than the choice of classes :)

I am playing a Deep Gnome so I get 2+ int and +1 dex. - I am taking the Svirfneblin Magic feat, is the plan aswell for my 4th level feat/attribute.

I rolled these stats rows:

13 - 17 - 11 - 18 - 7 - 12
__
13 - 12 - 12- 11 - 12 - 15

- So, we have a homebrew rule that you can remove 2 two stat point and add 1 stat to another stat, this you can do twice if you feel the need.

So my current Idea for stats are as following:

Str: 7 (+1 stat move) = 8
Dex: 17 (+1) = 18
Con: 12
Int: 18 (-2+2) = 18
Wis: 13
Cha: 11

Thinking of dumping int down to 16 to raise wisdom to 14 maybe - Not sure yet tho!

Or take 19 dex and 17 int instead.
__

Other stat row attempt:

Str: 11
Dex: 15 (+1) = 16
Con: 12
Int: 12 (+2) = 14
Wis: 13
Cha: 12

I may wanna remove 2 points from Cha and place somwhere else, maybe wis? Maybe not? Can´t tell yet.

So faar I am leaning towards the top row most. - I need 13 wisdom to go Ranger and this is set in stone so faar, but increasing it to 14 isn´t bad either. - I don´t want my strenght to be lower than 8, simple as that, since I am trying to emulate a former character :)

- Hope you guys can give me some feedback and tell me what you think about my two stat rows and placement :)

https://media.wizards.com/2016/dnd/downloads/UA_RevisedRanger.pdf -
- Vist or find it for explaination, but it´s alot better than the standart ranger :)

[Bobthewizard]

I'd consider going Ranger 3 / Rogue 2. That gets you the best parts of both classes.

For stats, I'd go

STR 7
DEX 19 (18+1)
CON 17
INT 14 (12+2)
WIS 13
CHA 11

I wouldn't take 2 off intelligence to boost a dump stat. -2 STR is fine. Take proficiency in athletics to offset it. I prefer having higher CON than 12 over a casting stat for a 1/2 to 1/3 caster, so I'd put the 17 there. My first ASI would go to DEX and CON.

You could take 2 off of CHA and add 1 to DEX to start with a 20. Then your first ASI could go to CON and WIS or resilient in one of those.

[CTurbo]

7 Str
17+1 Dex
18 Con
12+2 Int
13 Wis
11 Cha

How high do you think this campaign will go? I'd want to take at least 3 Ranger levels too, but not before going Rogue 5.

You'll be fine with 14 Int and 7 Str. If anything, take -2 to Cha for +1 to Wis.

[Keravath]

If you are an arcane trickster, you don't generally need a really high int since most of your spells are utility as opposed to offense. 14 is typically fine.

If you are planning on taking the deep gnome magic feat then the at will casting of non-detection works exceptionally well with the arcane ward from an abjuror wizard. Perhaps not the concept you are looking for but may be worth considering.

Finally, I think the suggestion of 3 ranger/2 rogue with starting stats of 19 dex and 17 con - boosting both with your first ASI - sounded like the best compromise to me. If you want to prioritize extra attack, go to level 5 ranger next ... otherwise go to 3 rogue for the archetype and then either 5 ranger or more rogue. Unless you have a strong story reason the 1 ranger/4 rogue doesn't sound like the best choice.

[Greenfeuer]

I am trying to fill out a character concept, so I am not trying to mini max as hard as I can, but not to nerf myself to death either by my choices, I want it to be effective and playable in a fun manner :)

My character needs to have a few certain stat to fit the bill and not stray too faar away from his old concept, so there will be a few odd choices, but I tried chooseing a class/multi class that best captured the spirit of the character, with that comes a few stat limits.

Stats:

He needs to have his strenght around (8-10), atleast.

He needs a high dex (16+) atleast.

He needs to have a con of (12-14) atleast.

He needs to have a int of (16+) preferably. - 14 feels abit low, but may suffice if thats what I am dealt in my stat rows.

He needs to have (12+) in wisdom in this case he needs 13 to be able to enter ranger, so that locks it at 13.
Do to character flavour, I feel like Revised Ranger is a strong choice, due to Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy being buffed. :)

Hope that helps! - I am still looking for a way to hit the best possible stat row and achive this however, and ofcourse advice in any forms are welcomed and the feedback does make me think alot!

This isn´t a new character, so sadly I am abit restricted not getting to faar way from his original concept - I prefer it personally that way, unless I can see a REALLY good reason to do it :)

[Yakk]

STR 8 (7+1)
DEX 20 (18+1+1)
CON 15 (17-2)
INT 14 (12+2)
WIS 13
CHA 9 (11-2)
this fits your criteria.

Arcane Trickster 3/Ranger 2

AC of 17 in studded leather
38 HP if Ranger first, 36 if Rogue first (changes saves etc).

Rogue 4 gives you an ASI/Feat, but doesn't give you spell advancement when multiclassing in another spellcasting class.

Ranger 2 gives you a fighting style, ranger spells. Also Ranger 3 gives you initial subclass (like gloomstalker).

Advancement:
Ranger 3 (gloomstalker), Ranger 4 (feat; Svirf magic), Ranger 5 (extra attack), AT 4 (feat; Resiliant(Con)?), AT 5 (sneak attack, defensive), AT 6 (Expertise), AT 7 (Evasion)

At level 12 you have the slots of a level 4 caster, and access to level 2 ranger and AT spells.

You are invisible to darkvision and scrying.

Your attack routine is +8 for 1d6+5 damage (x2 to x4 depending), with a 3d6 sneak attack and possible 1d6 HM.

With prep (scouting, casting HM before fight, then engaging) you can deal 11d6+20 (58.5) on the opening turn. (A pure level 12 unoptimized rogue would deal 8d6+5 (33), but have slightly better accuracy-per-point-of-damage. .

---

Alternative.
Ranger 2/AT 3 (Booming blade)
Ranger 3/AT 3 (Gloomstalker)
Ranger 3/AT 4 (Gnome feat)
Ranger 4/AT 4 (2nd feat)
Ranger 4/AT 5 (1/2 damage reaction)
etc

The booming blade (or greenflame blade) path leaves Ranger at 3 or 4. Ranger 4 bumps your casting level by 1, which is tempting as well, but you can put it off as long as you want instead.

Your AT levels round down for casting, so Ranger 2 or 3 means you'll basically have AT spellcasting progression except on levels divisible by 3, where you are 1 ahead.

At Ranger 4, you are always 1 step ahead, and 2 ahead on levels divisible by 3.

---

Gloomstalker "invisible to darkvision" is way too awesome not to grab for a Ranger/Rogue.

[Greenfeuer]

STR 8 (7+1)
DEX 20 (18+1+1)
CON 15 (17-2)
INT 14 (12+2)
WIS 13
CHA 9 (11-2)
this fits your criteria.

Arcane Trickster 3/Ranger 2

AC of 17 in studded leather
38 HP if Ranger first, 36 if Rogue first (changes saves etc).

Rogue 4 gives you an ASI/Feat, but doesn't give you spell advancement when multiclassing in another spellcasting class.

Ranger 2 gives you a fighting style, ranger spells. Also Ranger 3 gives you initial subclass (like gloomstalker).

Advancement:
Ranger 3 (gloomstalker), Ranger 4 (feat; Svirf magic), Ranger 5 (extra attack), AT 4 (feat; Resiliant(Con)?), AT 5 (sneak attack, defensive), AT 6 (Expertise), AT 7 (Evasion)

At level 12 you have the slots of a level 4 caster, and access to level 2 ranger and AT spells.

You are invisible to darkvision and scrying.

Your attack routine is +8 for 1d6+5 damage (x2 to x4 depending), with a 3d6 sneak attack and possible 1d6 HM.

With prep (scouting, casting HM before fight, then engaging) you can deal 11d6+20 (58.5) on the opening turn. (A pure level 12 unoptimized rogue would deal 8d6+5 (33), but have slightly better accuracy-per-point-of-damage. .

---

Alternative.
Ranger 2/AT 3 (Booming blade)
Ranger 3/AT 3 (Gloomstalker)
Ranger 3/AT 4 (Gnome feat)
Ranger 4/AT 4 (2nd feat)
Ranger 4/AT 5 (1/2 damage reaction)
etc

The booming blade (or greenflame blade) path leaves Ranger at 3 or 4. Ranger 4 bumps your casting level by 1, which is tempting as well, but you can put it off as long as you want instead.

Your AT levels round down for casting, so Ranger 2 or 3 means you'll basically have AT spellcasting progression except on levels divisible by 3, where you are 1 ahead.

At Ranger 4, you are always 1 step ahead, and 2 ahead on levels divisible by 3.

---

Gloomstalker "invisible to darkvision" is way too awesome not to grab for a Ranger/Rogue.

I may made a bummer, sorry! His charisma needs to be around (10+) atleast or so. - Sorry!

I will however still consider this route, I just prefer his int and cha is abit higher-.. But isn´t there situations where a high spell modifer comes in handy?

The spell progression thing, I plan only to take 1 level in ranger, two at max! But pure Arcane Trickster with 1 level in ranger is the plan, but you said something about it hindering my spell progression?

[Yakk]

You keep on adding rules. I mean, you listed every stat and placed a restriction on its range. So I put work into following your restrictions.

Then you invented a new rule. This is very frustrating and rude.

Bye.

[Bobthewizard]

I am trying to fill out a character concept, so I am not trying to mini max as hard as I can, but not to nerf myself to death either by my choices, I want it to be effective and playable in a fun manner :)

Stats:

He needs to have his strenght around (8-10), atleast.

He needs a high dex (16+) atleast.

He needs to have a con of (12-14) atleast.

He needs to have a int of (16+) preferably. - 14 feels abit low, but may suffice if thats what I am dealt in my stat rows.

He needs to have (12+) in wisdom in this case he needs 13 to be able to enter ranger, so that locks it at 13.
Do to character flavour, I feel like Revised Ranger is a strong choice, due to Natural Explorer and Favored Enemy being buffed. :)

Your stat requirements aren't optimized, but you can play anything in D&D. You can still have fun with 10's across the board. So if you are not looking to optimize I'm not sure what advice you are looking for. Just play the stat line that looks the most fun to you. We can't make that decision for you. We can help you with what is optimized, but you have to decide what looks more fun.

I think it's a bad idea to reduce primary or secondary stats in order to increase your dump stats, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead. I do it sometimes to make a character concept fit what I want.


The spell progression thing, I plan only to take 1 level in ranger, two at max! But pure Arcane Trickster with 1 level in ranger is the plan, but you said something about it hindering my spell progression?

Revised ranger is great. But even with revised ranger, an extra couple levels in it is very tempting. Level 2 gets you spells, including Hunter's Mark, 3 gets you gloom stalker's bonus to initiative, invisible to darkvision, and extra attack in the first round. 4 gets you an ASI, and 5 gets you extra attack. Once you get to Rogue 5 or 7, you might want to reconsider and pick up some more Ranger. Although with an Arcane Trickster, it is a little more complicated since you are slowing down your AT spell progression. Just something to think about in the future.

For best spell slot progression, you want Ranger in even levels and Arcane Trickster in multiples of 3, since both round down their spellcaster level when multi classing.


You keep on adding rules.

This is a frustrating for us. But I understand. Sometimes I think I was clear but when people respond I realize maybe I wasn't. Or sometimes you don't realize that you had requirements until someone breaks them.

[Greenfeuer]

Your stat requirements aren't optimized, but you can play anything in D&D. You can still have fun with 10's across the board. So if you are not looking to optimize I'm not sure what advice you are looking for. Just play the stat line that looks the most fun to you. We can't make that decision for you. We can help you with what is optimized, but you have to decide what looks more fun.

I think it's a bad idea to reduce primary or secondary stats in order to increase your dump stats, but if that's what you want to do, go ahead. I do it sometimes to make a character concept fit what I want.



Revised ranger is great. But even with revised ranger, an extra couple levels in it is very tempting. Level 2 gets you spells, including Hunter's Mark, 3 gets you gloom stalker's bonus to initiative, invisible to darkvision, and extra attack in the first round. 4 gets you an ASI, and 5 gets you extra attack. Once you get to Rogue 5 or 7, you might want to reconsider and pick up some more Ranger. Although with an Arcane Trickster, it is a little more complicated since you are slowing down your AT spell progression. Just something to think about in the future.

For best spell slot progression, you want Ranger in even levels and Arcane Trickster in multiples of 3, since both round down their spellcaster level when multi classing.



This is a frustrating for us. But I understand. Sometimes I think I was clear but when people respond I realize maybe I wasn't. Or sometimes you don't realize that you had requirements until someone breaks them.

Yeah I am thinking this over, and yes, I thought I had add the CHA part, I didn´t see I have missed putting in my cha stat, like I did with the rest. I was quite tired so it wasn´t on purpose.

I don´t quite understand, as faar as I know, my spell progression won´t take a hit unless I get to level 2 ranger where I get spells from there. - Until then I should be in the clear?

I am not sure my concept fits more levels than 1, I am going for a "shadow magic/illusion" kind of guy, and only the "natural" nature stuff, not the nature magi. - There are som Ranger spells that could fit my concept, but I prefer to keep it to that.

I am still consindering the suggestions, tho having a really low deception isn´t too good for my character, seeing he has been important in a few social scenarios, I see him around (10-12) in cha, anything lower, and I feel he gets challenged, and deception is kinda important with disguise self and other tricks, so gimping that can hurt my concept quite abit.

I like the gloom stalker ideer, and I may reconsinder only taking one level, but I was really just looking for a class or bagground that would hit home with the concept, and after doing some research 1 level revised ranger dip just fit the bill too perfect.

To explain his concept better.

He is a a rogue/thief character who has been trained to use magic/had it through hertiage, I felt Arcane Trickster fitted the bill best, and even thought of multiclassing with wizard maybe for more magic. Since I am playing a gnome and that is 100% locked, I felt the deep gnome magic feat + high int fitted that path best, however, there a few things that don´t translate too well. - But he has basicly a "grey wizard" apperentince in the warhammer universe, or well-.. And poorly teached one, he had some raw talent but lacked the training tho, only been given a slight bit, but being smart and a quick learner he has pick up quite abit on his own. - Shadow magic, illusion spells and all that is his jazz, so I like to keep it to those spells or enhancement that fits the concept. - There are some Ranger spells that would fit, but as soon as I gain ranger spells I loose out on the Arcane Trickster ones I rather have, which is the big challenge with this concept aswell :)

- Hope it made sense, and I am sorry I forgot to add restrictions on CHA, but it was litterally the only stat I forgot about in the process, so it was more of a brain fart than anything, but that doesn´t mean the data or ideers are useless, I will nerd on and try to see what works.

I love more feedback and I am really greatful for the feedback I have already gotten, thanks alot so faar ^^

[Keravath]

"I am going for a "shadow magic/illusion" kind of guy"

If this is REALLY your goal with the character then I would suggest two levels of hexblade warlock rather than ranger.

Ranger has a nature/outdoor focus which you haven't mentioned as a goal - I am not sure why you want ranger in the first place. On the other hand, shadow magic is a hallmark of either the shadow sorcerer or the hexblade warlock. You can refluff the hexblade patron however you and your DM want to ...

However, two levels of hexblade will give you the invocation allowing you to cast silent image AT WILL. If you want to be a shadow/illusion character then being able to cast silent image any time, all the time is very useful.

You could also pick up the disguise self at will invocation. This allows your character to look like anyone else in less than 6 seconds every 6 seconds ... walk around a corner ... cast disguise self and a completely different looking person walks out.

You also get proficiency with medium armor and shields, martial weapons, 2 short rest spell slots, a couple of extra cantrips, some extra spells (hex can make up for the reduction of sneak attack damage ... AND hex can be used in social situations if you can cast it without being seen to give the target disadvantage on skill checks ... like failing perception checks if you try to deceive them or persuade them).

From a roleplay perspective, for an illusion based character with a bit of a shadowy nature ... it can fit very well.

In that case, I would suggest 2 levels of hexblade warlock combined with 3 levels of arcane trickster for level 5 with dex and charisma being your highest stats.

You could fill in some of your other nature requirements with an appropriate background like Outlander or similar and take the survival skill.

[Greenfeuer]

"I am going for a "shadow magic/illusion" kind of guy"

If this is REALLY your goal with the character then I would suggest two levels of hexblade warlock rather than ranger.

Ranger has a nature/outdoor focus which you haven't mentioned as a goal - I am not sure why you want ranger in the first place. On the other hand, shadow magic is a hallmark of either the shadow sorcerer or the hexblade warlock. You can refluff the hexblade patron however you and your DM want to ...

However, two levels of hexblade will give you the invocation allowing you to cast silent image AT WILL. If you want to be a shadow/illusion character then being able to cast silent image any time, all the time is very useful.

You could also pick up the disguise self at will invocation. This allows your character to look like anyone else in less than 6 seconds every 6 seconds ... walk around a corner ... cast disguise self and a completely different looking person walks out.

You also get proficiency with medium armor and shields, martial weapons, 2 short rest spell slots, a couple of extra cantrips, some extra spells (hex can make up for the reduction of sneak attack damage ... AND hex can be used in social situations if you can cast it without being seen to give the target disadvantage on skill checks ... like failing perception checks if you try to deceive them or persuade them).

From a roleplay perspective, for an illusion based character with a bit of a shadowy nature ... it can fit very well.

In that case, I would suggest 2 levels of hexblade warlock combined with 3 levels of arcane trickster for level 5 with dex and charisma being your highest stats.

You could fill in some of your other nature requirements with an appropriate background like Outlander or similar and take the survival skill.

I metioned in the title are more places why I want 1 level of ranger, cause it fits his concept well due to the natural explorer feature + more advanced survival checks + nature features that nails his concept. - 1 level is because I only see him as a novice in this aspect, but enough to earn 1 level of ranger.

This is a really nice suggestion actually tho, the one with warlock/sorc, I will look into it--.. But it would require me to have a higher cha right - Not sure I can afford unless I drop wis, sadly.. - I will consinder this, but I feel like a pure Arcane Trickster gets lot of illusions and such, and nice magi, but the warlock path may work or sorc aswell. - But I feel like a pure Arcane Trickster would fit fine too. - The thing with the shadow/illusion guy, was simply to explain what magic he is using, I felt the Arcane Trickster fitted the concept perfectly, since he was the Thief career within the Warhammer game we played, reskinned to have some magic and some survival stuff. He had magic talents, and focused on shadowry magic/illusions, and the like :) - I feel the Shadow Blade spell fits the concept well too, the one Arcane Tricksters can get acess to aswell :)

The Ranger Revised however fits very well, the natural explorer feature just hits the mark on stuff he has helped with, like finding herbs/helping comuflage their camp/or get eatable things in general or knowlegde of herbs. - However, I will look into the warlock and sorc to see how that works too-.. Worst case I will go for a custom BG.

But the Outlander feature has been banned simply due to the fact it killed the survival aspect of the game, so yeah. ranger leans more towards rolling and making things easier, but not simply always been able to find food and such, simply find more and such, from an RP persektiv and mechanic wise, I just found it spot on. - Beside, the criminal BG fits my character spot on with old features alot better. - But as custom BG may be the solution worst case :)

- I love this feedback, and I hope I don´t sound ungreatfull, but I kinda wrote it was locked, and that I was going 4 levels of Arcane Trickster and 1 level of ranger, I just needed to sort out my stats really mostly, HOWEVER! I am still super happy for all the feedback, and I may if I see it more fitting try these suggestions out, but so faar I am hot on the Arcane Trickster / Ranger ideer.

But yeah I see why a BG could cover alot of the things I metioned, but I felt they may be lacking vs. 1 level of ranger, since the natural explorer feature and foe slayer kinda fits-.. My character wasn´t ment to be the "outdoor survival guy" but his extend knowlegde on herbs and survival from his family line of work and the fact he has been on the road for a long time, really slowly became a thing within our game. - So I think the 1 level of Ranger really fits that part.

I don´t see my character as insanely charasmatic tho, but if its the only way the system allows me to cast a certain type of magic, I may reconsinder it. :)

His role in our game has been so faar, the thief and scout, who his cable of magic, so also our renegade poorly trained wizard. - But due to stats, he had rather strong magical potientiale, but really lacked the training and knowlegde to be as good as our dedicated Wizard.-.. I can see him both going Arcane Trickster + warlock/sorc maybe too, but the ranger part really supports our need for a survival guy, and my character filled that role before really well too. - The innate magic part fits very well with the deep gnome magic feat, its rather spot on with magic I think he would know :)

I know I have a concept that threatens with spreading myself thin, so I try my best to narrow it down. But changeing system really challenges me getting him just right, even tho there are many great options :)

I could write his old stats down? But not sure it would make alot of sense unless you have played the warhammer 4th edition game :)


- Our GM do allow rerolling / reselecting our class or story development, so maybe I change a few things over time, we´ll see :)

[Keravath]

From the sounds of it, you might be best off just going with pure arcane trickster rogue and picking up the nature and other aspects through background and skill choices. 5e is very flexible that way and I am not sure what the ranger actually adds to the concept over the background features and skills available. Rogue already starts with 4 skills from their class and expertise in two of them.

As for stats, if you plan to be a mostly rogue max dex. If you want to use offensive spells as a trickster then assign a fairly high int (14+) since that affects your spell save DC. If your spells are all illusions or party beneficial spells then intelligence is less important. However, an arcane trickster is a rogue first with a splash of magic. A 5th level trickster has 3 first level spells each day ... they don't go that far. They get access to shadowblade at 7th level of rogue when they have 4 first and 2 second level spells. Cunning action, sneak attack and expertise are the main hallmarks of the rogue in 5e though they get a number of good class features. Your concept sounds a bit more magical that that ... but it is up to you what you want to adjust to fit the character concept into 5e.

However, at this point, it seems to me that you have already decided most everything ... every stat has a value you have in mind ... you don't want to adjust the stats to work better, you don't want to adjust the classes to enhance specific aspects of your character concept ... I'm not sure that there is any useful feedback that folks can put forward at this point.

[Greenfeuer]

From the sounds of it, you might be best off just going with pure arcane trickster rogue and picking up the nature and other aspects through background and skill choices. 5e is very flexible that way and I am not sure what the ranger actually adds to the concept over the background features and skills available. Rogue already starts with 4 skills from their class and expertise in two of them.

As for stats, if you plan to be a mostly rogue max dex. If you want to use offensive spells as a trickster then assign a fairly high int (14+) since that affects your spell save DC. If your spells are all illusions or party beneficial spells then intelligence is less important. However, an arcane trickster is a rogue first with a splash of magic. A 5th level trickster has 3 first level spells each day ... they don't go that far. They get access to shadowblade at 7th level of rogue when they have 4 first and 2 second level spells. Cunning action, sneak attack and expertise are the main hallmarks of the rogue in 5e though they get a number of good class features. Your concept sounds a bit more magical that that ... but it is up to you what you want to adjust to fit the character concept into 5e.

However, at this point, it seems to me that you have already decided most everything ... every stat has a value you have in mind ... you don't want to adjust the stats to work better, you don't want to adjust the classes to enhance specific aspects of your character concept ... I'm not sure that there is any useful feedback that folks can put forward at this point.

You may be right that I have made up my mind with alot of things, or atleast seem, locked by them. But I wanted some creative feedback and see how my character was holding op, and what ideers people had, and maybe they fitted better than of stuff I came up with myself, your guide and tips has been great tho and I am still consindering different options, but I haven´t 100% settled down on what yet.

Even tho I tempted towards my original ideer, I can see the value in the other ideers aswell ^^

I am greatful for your feedback, cause it has given me ideers, and however my character progress will maybe choose which path I will go down on, but thanks alot for the help, it has been really nice :)