Smallest Playable Race?

[Palanan]

Are there any races in Pathfinder which are smaller than the usual Small races? I’m aware of at least half a dozen in the Small category, but are there any playable races which are further on down the scale?

For my purposes I’m only interested in the natural, unmodified size of a given race—I’m not looking for any kind of shenanigans involving reduce person, psionic powers, etc. I’m open to anything from official Paizo content. Am I overlooking something, or is there nothing smaller than Small?

[Kurald Galain]

Kitsune can stay in fox form indefinitely, making them tiny.

[Trandir]

Nope small is the smallest a race can get with its base form (if you don't count the kitsune's Superior Shapeshifter that provides the fox shape feat, and foxes are tiny)

[Particle_Man]

Would the "young" template as well as some class that freezes aging be allowed?

Toddler Monk n the house!

[Palanan]

Thanks, but for my purposes I'm not looking for templates or other ways to modify the baseline size of any given race.

So, are there any strong reasons against having playable races from smaller size categories?

[stack]

Reach gets to be a pain with tiny sizes and massive stealth bonuses could be an issue.

Bat skinwalkers (bloodmarked) have a feat to turn into a diminutive bat.

[SimonMoon6]

Pathfinder has rules for playing as any monster. So go nuts.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by stack
Reach gets to be a pain with tiny sizes and massive stealth bonuses could be an issue.

Okay, thanks. Now I’m wondering how to build Reepicheep. :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by SimonMoon6
Pathfinder has rules for playing as any monster. So go nuts.

Do you have a specific source you can point me towards?

I found a section on the AoNPRD about playing monsters, but it leads with this warning:


"Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully."

It also suggests that all-monster parties are the best way to approach the issue. I’m not sure what book this is from, though, and if there are more detailed rules on monster PCs I’d be very glad to give them a look.

[Lazymancer]

So, are there any strong reasons against having playable races from smaller size categories?
I don't think so.
Even from the point of Paizo-published "balance" Tiny size should not be an issue, as they included it in their custom race creator (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/creating-new-races/#TOC-Size-Quality).

[Kurald Galain]

So, are there any strong reasons against having playable races from smaller size categories?

There are a couple abilities that work on anything larger than you; these go from "situational" to "pretty much always". Probably not a big deal, but something to be aware of. E.g. the Mouser archetype.

[zlefin]

I'm not quite sure how pathfinder handles them; in 3.5 Grig (one of the sprites) are tiny and have a listed LA. I don't know what pathfinder does/did for such things.
I don't see anything explicit allowing it; but in general they did try to maintain 3.5 compatibility, so I just don't know, maybe there's something somewhere.

[SimonMoon6]

Okay, thanks. Now I’m wondering how to build Reepicheep. :smalltongue:



Do you have a specific source you can point me towards?

I found a section on the AoNPRD about playing monsters, but it leads with this warning:


"Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind, and as such can be very unbalancing if not handled carefully."

It also suggests that all-monster parties are the best way to approach the issue. I’m not sure what book this is from, though, and if there are more detailed rules on monster PCs I’d be very glad to give them a look.



The relevant part is right below that:



If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.

Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.


The rest of the stuff that you mention is just fluff saying "Be careful when allowing things in your game" but that's true of everything really.

[Kris Moonhand]

Vanilla races? Not really. There are some 3pp things that have Tiny races, and I know the Gonzo Kitchen Sink book has a Diminutive race called the Lilliputians.