Cheap item made of glass?

[Greywander]

I want to borrow an idea from one of Spoony's old videos and get something made of glass, put it in a pouch, and smash it up with a hammer into a fine powder. Poor man's blind spell, with a permanent duration. Pretty nasty, I know, but if it stops them from putting a sword in your gut, then hey.

The problem is, I'm not sure which items are actually made out of glass. There's a glass bottle for 2 gp. There's vials for 1 gp, but I don't know for sure if they're glass. The spyglass and magnifying glass are too expensive to use for this. Hourglass as well. I have to assume that, while modern flasks are often made of glass or plastic, medieval flasks are probably made out of leather (the word's meaning has changed slightly over time). Tankards are probably wood. The glass bottle is the cheapest item I can see that I know 100% is made from glass. Vials probably are as well, but they're also much smaller so I might need a lot more for the same amount of powdered glass.

[Hellpyre]

Vials won't be terribly cost-efficient considering they hold a single fluid ounce of liquid when filled. It's also worth noting that the amount of glass you need to make something like this work is fairly large considering the size of the end pile of glass.

But most importantly, you run afoul of one of the more important rules of playing: players escalating invites DM response. Putting these kind of clever little tricks invites the DM to do likewise to the party, so make sure the rest of the group is okay with that conceptually before you actually try this in-game.

(It's also not nearly as permanent as one might expect, oddly enough. If the glass doesn't scratch the cornea a simple rinse can often remove it without major incident, as would presumably any amount of even minor magical healing)

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Ah I remember Counter Monkey fondly. Spoony's videos actually helped get me into D&D in the first place.

On topic, perhaps, as an alternative, consider the Jug item for 4 cp? Assuming the jug is porcelain, which, as a ceramic, has many similarities with glass. Don't know if this would translate to the same effectiveness when pulverized, but it might be worth considering. Likewise, perhaps crushed bone might also do the trick, if you're willing to get a bit dirty.

Also of possible note might be the lamp for 5 sp, depending on the construction.

You could always try going more "Dale Gribble" and using some pocket sand for similar effect. Maybe just ask your DM for a way to work this into play. Maybe ask if you can substitute a bag of ball bearings (1 gp) into a bag of marbles, and make a few pouches of crushed glass like that.


But most importantly, you run afoul of one of the more important rules of playing: players escalating invites DM response. Putting these kind of clever little tricks invites the DM to do likewise to the party, so make sure the rest of the group is okay with that conceptually before you actually try this in-game.

On the contrary, I believe player creativity is something that is a welcome change in 5e, if not something that is actually encouraged by the relative simplicity of the system's rules. As a DM, there's already more than enough tricks at my disposal regardless of this kind of play, so I'd probably encourage my players to try something that isn't "I attack" once in a while.

[Hilary]

Broken glass should be cheap to purchase. You need not buy intact items and break them. Any glassblower will have a lot of broken glass that they are happy to get rid of.

[Dork_Forge]

This sounds great when it goes right and like certain death when it goes wrong

[Unoriginal]

I want to borrow an idea from one of Spoony's old videos and get something made of glass, put it in a pouch, and smash it up with a hammer into a fine powder. Poor man's blind spell, with a permanent duration. Pretty nasty, I know, but if it stops them from putting a sword in your gut, then hey.

The problem is, I'm not sure which items are actually made out of glass. There's a glass bottle for 2 gp. There's vials for 1 gp, but I don't know for sure if they're glass. The spyglass and magnifying glass are too expensive to use for this. Hourglass as well. I have to assume that, while modern flasks are often made of glass or plastic, medieval flasks are probably made out of leather (the word's meaning has changed slightly over time). Tankards are probably wood. The glass bottle is the cheapest item I can see that I know 100% is made from glass. Vials probably are as well, but they're also much smaller so I might need a lot more for the same amount of powdered glass.

How is finely powdered glass going to cause permanent blindness?

[Waterdeep Merch]

If you're somewhere you can buy things and aren't pressed for time, the alchemist's kit includes a mortar and pestle. Salt and powdered iron are considered common components of one per Xanathar's, which can be cut into your powdered glass to make an even more horrific weapon.

Other fun things you can grind up include eggshells, black pepper, coarse sawdust, burnt bones, citrus of any sort, obsidian if you can get your hands on some, any sort of poison, and possibly plain old white flour. That last one is best if you have plenty of it and a way to create fire on demand, like firebolt. Nothing like causing an explosion right in the monster's face.

[Unoriginal]

If you're somewhere you can buy things and aren't pressed for time, the alchemist's kit includes a mortar and pestle. Salt and powdered iron are considered common components of one per Xanathar's, which can be cut into your powdered glass to make an even more horrific weapon.

Other fun things you can grind up include eggshells, black pepper, coarse sawdust, burnt bones, citrus of any sort, obsidian if you can get your hands on some, any sort of poison, and possibly plain old white flour. That last one is best if you have plenty of it and a way to create fire on demand, like firebolt. Nothing like causing an explosion right in the monster's face.


Pocket sand is useful, but not an "horrific weapon". Nothing in the list, including powdered glass, will significant damage the eyes aside from poison (unless you're like, restraining the target and rubbing the stuff on their eyes). Especially not in the D&D 5e combat abstraction.

Also the flour thing doesn't cause explosions, it causes a quick fire spread if the air is saturated with flamable particles (which is why it can also happen in saw mills, with wood dust). I guess it can be described as a burst of flame, but there is no detonation or the like, and a single bag of floor is barely going to let you singe anything.

If you want to do damage with that kind of things you'd need something like tricking the werewolf into following you to the mill and then setting it on fire with them inside.


But honestly you're better off using your Alchemist's Supplies to create potent explosive or noxious smoke or glowing substances (which would be nasty if it got in one's eyes), or the like.

[Martin Greywolf]

I want to borrow an idea from one of Spoony's old videos and get something made of glass, put it in a pouch, and smash it up with a hammer into a fine powder. Poor man's blind spell, with a permanent duration. Pretty nasty, I know, but if it stops them from putting a sword in your gut, then hey.


This doesn't actually work, for a plethora of reasons, one of which being that glass dust fine enough to cause problems to eyes is fine enough to not be controllable.



The problem is, I'm not sure which items are actually made out of glass. There's a glass bottle for 2 gp. There's vials for 1 gp, but I don't know for sure if they're glass. The spyglass and magnifying glass are too expensive to use for this. Hourglass as well. I have to assume that, while modern flasks are often made of glass or plastic, medieval flasks are probably made out of leather (the word's meaning has changed slightly over time). Tankards are probably wood. The glass bottle is the cheapest item I can see that I know 100% is made from glass. Vials probably are as well, but they're also much smaller so I might need a lot more for the same amount of powdered glass.

Clear glass in medieval times is a luxury, matte glass is still pretty expensive. Flasks are only rarely leather, most of the medieval world used wooden buckets and barrels or pottery. Leather flasks were only used for travelling purposes where weight was a concern.

Now, on to things that would work. There's a medieval receipe from 1400 that explicitly tells you how to make "make the other guy go blind" powder:


https://wiktenauer.com/images/thumb/9/9e/MS_Ludwig_XV_13_37v-b.jpg/400px-MS_Ludwig_XV_13_37v-b.jpg
https://wiktenauer.com/images/thumb/b/bd/Pisani-Dossi_MS_36a-b.png/400px-Pisani-Dossi_MS_36a-b.png

This poleaxe of mine is filled with a powder and is hollow and perforated. And this powder is so strongly corrosive that the moment it touches your eye, you will no longer be able to open it, and you may be permanently blinded.

[...]

My most noble lord, my Marquis, there are some vicious things shown in this book that you would never do. I show you them purely to aid your knowledge.

This is the powder that you use in the poleaxe drawn above. Take the sap of the spurge, and dry it in a warm oven to make a powder. Now take two ounces of this powder and one ounce of powder of fior d'preda, and mix them together. Now load this powder into the poleaxe shown above. You can do this with any good caustic powder, but you won’t find a better recipe than the one in this book.


Note that they keep the powder the hell away from their hands, as wiping your sweat away with hands coated in this would be... unpleasant. Laso note that this powder is explicitly made to cause long-term problems, possibly permanent.

For less permanent but equally disabling solution, determine what is your local spicy food and use that. This will depend on region, but if this spicy thing is functioning in powder form (shilli peppers do), you can simply mix it with flour. Even flour alone will do.

For ease of carry, make some hollowed eggs by blowing out the insides, as if you were making painted easter eggs, then fill with powder and seal holes with was or glue. Put eggs in sack, and when the time comes, take it out, crush the egg in your hand and throw powder.

[Mr Adventurer]

Horrible idea.

Anyway, just keep the vials of all the potions you drink.

[Unoriginal]

This doesn't actually work, for a plethora of reasons, one of which being that glass dust fine enough to cause problems to eyes is fine enough to not be controllable.

Another being that glass dust this fine is unlikely to have (immediate) effects different than those of fine sand or clay dust. Aside from being much more expensive.



For ease of carry, make some hollowed eggs by blowing out the insides, as if you were making painted easter eggs, then fill with powder and seal holes with was or glue. Put eggs in sack, and when the time comes, take it out, crush the egg in your hand and throw powder.

Why not throw the egg?

[Martin Greywolf]

Why not throw the egg?

To put it simply, area of effect, if that egg is thrown and shatters, it will poof into a cloud meybe a meter across. If you crush it and throw, you can spread that powder in a large semicircle. Thrown egg is also likely to not be effective if it impacts, say, side of a helmet, then all the powder flies behind the guy you want to hit, or just covers top of his helmet. A shield can stop an egg like this, but likely will not stop the hand throw.

That said, if you need to go across large distances, you can maybe throe or sling it, but again, how that powder scatters is pretty much random. Maybe sling a small, but bigger than an egg, clay pot?

[Joe the Rat]

Another good aerosolible irritant is ash and charcoal dust. Ranges from flake to granule to powder, cakes up on moist surfaces (eyes, throats) like nobody's business, and when you get right down to it, the particles are gnarly little bits of carbonized wood.

[Waterdeep Merch]

Pocket sand is useful, but not an "horrific weapon". Nothing in the list, including powdered glass, will significant damage the eyes aside from poison (unless you're like, restraining the target and rubbing the stuff on their eyes). Especially not in the D&D 5e combat abstraction.

Also the flour thing doesn't cause explosions, it causes a quick fire spread if the air is saturated with flamable particles (which is why it can also happen in saw mills, with wood dust). I guess it can be described as a burst of flame, but there is no detonation or the like, and a single bag of floor is barely going to let you singe anything.

If you want to do damage with that kind of things you'd need something like tricking the werewolf into following you to the mill and then setting it on fire with them inside.


But honestly you're better off using your Alchemist's Supplies to create potent explosive or noxious smoke or glowing substances (which would be nasty if it got in one's eyes), or the like.
Everything I listed sans-poison (ironically) is an actual thing that has been used, historically, to temporarily blind people by throwing it in their face. Though it's worth mentioning that your chances of permanently blinding anyone with any of these isn't very high, and 5e's HP-based combat doesn't really allow for these sorts of things to just function realistically. If this did, an axe to the face should cause permanent injury, too.

*Salt and citrus are irritants more than particularly dangerous, added more to cause pain than actually help the process.
*Powdered iron is simply difficult to flush out of the eye. It rusts on contact and leaves a pasty red smear. *If* you actually hit with it, of course (more on that later).
*Eggshells were sometimes used in conjunction with black pepper as well as ground up glass, dirt, ashes, and flour by samurai as the equivalent of mace. It didn't just blind, it was incredibly painful. It was called metsubushi if you want to look it up!
*I noted that flour isn't really going to explode much unless you've got plenty of it. It's more interesting as a trap, really, but it's not bad as an eye irritant simply because it wafts into clouds easily. The explosive potential is more of a bonus.

It's worth noting that the human eye shuts itself real fast upon seeing anything at all that might harm it. There's a reason we sometimes call fast events 'the blink of an eye'. Even assuming you get stuff in there, eyelids are designed to be very tight and are fairly capable of flushing the eye all by itself under most circumstances, even against material like ground glass. And even under the best/worst circumstances with these weapons, the eye can usually regenerate from what any type of irritant would do in about 1-3 days so long as the victim doesn't keep trying to use the eye or rub it too much.

Given all that and D&D's combat abstraction, permanent blindness generally shouldn't be possible with these weapons. You're more likely to get a few rounds after a Dex/Con save, maybe with the added benefit of an enemy acting out in pain or running depending on how the DM wants to run things (it's what I'd do). Especially against wild beasts- bear mace is a thing.

[Mellack]

As others have said, D&D doesn't really simulate this kind of injuries. Maces should really break bones when they hit, making a limb useless. Arrows just as often killed from infection of the wounds as the arrow damage itself. You should probably discuss things with your DM first. It is very hard to include these things in a balanced way. They tend to be either so useless as to not be worth the action, or so good that everyone is just flinging dusts at each other.

[LibraryOgre]

Broken glass should be cheap to purchase. You need not buy intact items and break them. Any glassblower will have a lot of broken glass that they are happy to get rid of.

Exactly what I was thinking. "I want some broken glass. Can I take this off your hands?"

[Willie the Duck]

Everything I listed sans-poison (ironically) is an actual thing that has been used, historically, to temporarily blind people by throwing it in their face. Though it's worth mentioning that your chances of permanently blinding anyone with any of these isn't very high, and 5e's HP-based combat doesn't really allow for these sorts of things to just function realistically. If this did, an axe to the face should cause permanent injury, too.
It is certainly worth noting that most of these things are harder to use to negatively affect someone than simply hitting them with an ax. The DM should feel well within their rights to not make this blinding thing easy to do (particularly if it turns all combats into races to use bags of flour and eggshells full of glass dust instead of weaponry).


*Eggshells were sometimes used in conjunction with black pepper as well as ground up glass, dirt, ashes, and flour by samurai as the equivalent of mace. It didn't just blind, it was incredibly painful. It was called metsubushi if you want to look it up!
I did, since I remembered it from my old 1E Oriental Adventures book. Unfortunately, even wikipedia only has two references to the thing: a book called Secrets of the Samurai; A Survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan which may very well be a primary document researched material, but I can't find any reviews, and a book called The Shadow Warrior: The Ninja Web by a publisher called Black Belt, which sounds about as credible as, well, 1E Oriental Adventures. Do you know of any other references to the subject? I'm worried that this might be like another of my favorite OA weapons - the sangkauw which seems it might have been someone misinterpreting some text-border artwork in some Eastern writing or the like, and may or may not have been real.


Exactly what I was thinking. "I want some broken glass. Can I take this off your hands?"

In modern times, such things are often recycled, since glass melts at a lower temperature (requires less fuel) than starting over with sand. I wonder if the same would be true in medieval times. I know potters would have a lot of cast-off failed pots, if we expand the selection to clay/silt instead of specifically powdered glass.

But regardless, this is D&D, not realism! If you want to enforce genre convention, reality is unimportant! Game balance, however, it. I'd use caltrops and marbles as the basic template for this weapon, up to and including how readily one can extricate oneself from the item's effects. I think if you can pin your enemy down in a specific spot (perhaps with said marbles and caltrops), then tossing on blinding powder for extra humiliation makes all the sense in the world. Permanently blinding (even something like 'until the opponent receives some form of healing) would probably be too much (because blindness is pretty harsh in this edition).

[NecessaryWeevil]

Yeah, if this sort of tactic is possible, then you need to answer the question, "Why doesn't every soldier and guardsman carry a bag of this stuff?"

[jjordan]

So, there are actual medieval recipes for this kind of thing. Mostly latex. The recommended delivery method was to apply the powder to the head of your weapon. You'd strike hard from overhead at your opponent, pretty much telegraphing the blow, and they'd block it and the powder would come off the head (driven by the impact against the blocking tool) and hit your opponent in the eyes. I've accidentally done this with dirt on the tip of a sword and that was enough to cause my opponents to step back and call for a pause in combat while they rinsed their eyes. Other delivery systems might include pixie sticks (hollow tubes you use to blow a cloud of dust in the face of the opponent) and talc-bags (bean bags made with roughly woven cloth and designed to be thrown in the opponents face).

If there's a glassblowing industry then you'll be able to buy broken glass more cheaply than made glass items, but broken glass (cullet) could be (and was) recycled. The Serce Limani shipwreck, for instance, was carrying a cargo of broken glass which was going to be used to produce new glass items. So broken glass wasn't exactly a waste item.

Other blinding materials would include:

Pepper - In powder or liquid form. Can be made from black peppercorns or pepper fruits.
Jelly Fish Toxin - A relatively recent discovery but apparently pretty easy to isolate using alcohol.
Belladonna Powder - Funny stuff. Belladonna was known and used to dilate eyes (it still is) but the concentrated liquid used by modern doctors takes a few minutes to fully take effect. It's really the gritty resin that does the work here.
Sulfur - A little of the old brimstone powder. When in contact with the eyes it forms a weak solution of sulfuric acid. This is the mechanism that allows onions to make our eyes water.
Salt - Doesn't cause long term damage but has the advantage of working very quickly.
Various real world saps/resins - Poison ivy, Manchineel, Gympie-Gympie, Hogweed, and etc...
Lye - Good old bleach. Powdered lye is probably available from your better class of laundress.
Quicklime - Calcium oxide made by heating limestone or seashells in a lime kiln.

[Fitz10019]

How is finely powdered glass going to cause permanent blindness?

They'll be blind for the rest of their lives, three to five rounds.

[Willie the Duck]

They'll be blind for the rest of their lives, three to five rounds.

Okay, now that was funny.

[opaopajr]

Another good aerosolible irritant is ash and charcoal dust. Ranges from flake to granule to powder, cakes up on moist surfaces (eyes, throats) like nobody's business, and when you get right down to it, the particles are gnarly little bits of carbonized wood.

This is a much better, cheaper, and readily available solution. Every game seems to have wood and or fires. Ash with some pulverized bark in a bag is essentially lye & splinters in someone's eye. :smalleek:

:smalltongue: Dunno why OP need permanent blindness solutions when temporary solutions along with pointy weaponry thereafter accomplish the same, but whatever makes them happy.

[Martin Greywolf]

So, there are actual medieval recipes for this kind of thing. Mostly latex. The recommended delivery method was to apply the powder to the head of your weapon. You'd strike hard from overhead at your opponent, pretty much telegraphing the blow, and they'd block it and the powder would come off the head (driven by the impact against the blocking tool) and hit your opponent in the eyes.

There is exactly one manual that shows this, which I quoted above. It wasn't a common thing by any stretch of the imagination.


Yeah, if this sort of tactic is possible, then you need to answer the question, "Why doesn't every soldier and guardsman carry a bag of this stuff?"

This is a different question from the original, really. Original question is, how do I make blinding powder for cheap workable because I want to do it - as a part of a fantasy. Thing that work in DnD and other assorted games very rarely intersect with what works in real life. For starters, you aren't absolutely hosed if someone in DnD attacks your swordsman with a spear.

If we're talking about why this wasn't used historically, well, there is a bunch of reasons. First reason, and this ties into why it's more viable in DnD is the cost of a free hand. You need to not be holding something like a shield in that hand, and that is... a stupendously bad idea. Even a buckler is better than nothing in street situation, on a battlefield, you either have that shield or get shot. If you have enough armor to not get shot, you will need a two handed weapon to take out all the other people in armor.

Another consideration is legal. If you, a town guard at large, toss a powder into a rowdy merchant's eyes, and he goes blind permanently, you'll get hanged. You pretty much need life or death situation to make it work legally, and even then, there will be argument that killing them quickly is less cruel.

Then there's the societal consideration. If you look at my post above, with the period quote, you'll find out that it's very clearly stated that this was seen as absolutely dishonorable. Maybe not problem for a conscript, but most soldiers at the time weren't conscripts and had to worry about their career. There may be some groups it was more acceptable to use this against (can't discuss those on account of forum rules), but if a duke uses it against a duke of foreign nation? That's a major political blow to his prestige.

Lastly, people don't have that many HP in real life, one to three solid blows will kill a guy. If all you need is three hits, then using one of thyem to debuff isn't such a hot idea. If you need something like a dozen hits, however...

[stoutstien]

Using fine sand/glass/ash/ any eye and skin irritants is best saved for large scale applications like sieges.
On that note a personal favorite is heated sand to a point of near melting and favorable wind conditions.

[KorvinStarmast]

Another good aerosolible irritant is ash and charcoal dust. Ranges from flake to granule to powder, cakes up on moist surfaces (eyes, throats) like nobody's business, and when you get right down to it, the particles are gnarly little bits of carbonized wood. And easier to pound and grind into fine powder than glass.

They tend to be either so useless as to not be worth the action, or so good that everyone is just flinging dusts at each other. Or, in 20th century parlance, (almost) just flinging nuclear weapons at each other. :smalleek:

Okay, now that was funny. Yes it was. :smallcool: It reminds me of a line in Pulp Fiction from the same character who advised Bruce Willis' character that his LA privileges were revoked...

[NorthernPhoenix]

As others have said, D&D doesn't really simulate this kind of injuries. Maces should really break bones when they hit, making a limb useless. Arrows just as often killed from infection of the wounds as the arrow damage itself. You should probably discuss things with your DM first. It is very hard to include these things in a balanced way. They tend to be either so useless as to not be worth the action, or so good that everyone is just flinging dusts at each other.

Right. I think, like "pocket sand", allowing something like this to copy the "Blindness" spell, save every turn and all, could be fine. But that's it imo.

[jjordan]

So, there are actual medieval recipes for this kind of thing. Mostly latex. The recommended delivery method was to apply the powder to the head of your weapon. You'd strike hard from overhead at your opponent, pretty much telegraphing the blow, and they'd block it and the powder would come off the head (driven by the impact against the blocking tool) and hit your opponent in the eyes.

There is exactly one manual that shows this, which I quoted above. It wasn't a common thing by any stretch of the imagination.
I summarized the Fiore material and didn't go into the various translations/speculations that suggest the plant in question might be a variant of Hogweed. And while my writing was unclear, there are a lot of references to the use of dusts in warfare throughout the historical record. China, India, and the Middle East all have references to the use of various powdered substances in warfare and assassination (usually quicklime but others are mentioned/speculated on).

[Waterdeep Merch]

I did, since I remembered it from my old 1E Oriental Adventures book. Unfortunately, even wikipedia only has two references to the thing: a book called Secrets of the Samurai; A Survey of the Martial Arts of Feudal Japan which may very well be a primary document researched material, but I can't find any reviews, and a book called The Shadow Warrior: The Ninja Web by a publisher called Black Belt, which sounds about as credible as, well, 1E Oriental Adventures. Do you know of any other references to the subject? I'm worried that this might be like another of my favorite OA weapons - the sangkauw which seems it might have been someone misinterpreting some text-border artwork in some Eastern writing or the like, and may or may not have been real.

This took some searching, because the book I remember reading it in is, itself, said to contain historical inaccuracies (Secrets of the Samurai).

The best reference I found to it was a somewhat mysterious scroll, sometimes called the Sword Scroll, attributed to Yamamoto Kansuke, a 16th century samurai, though it's unknown if he ever wrote it. Even weirder, there are four different Sword Scrolls, and it's anyone's guess if any or all of them were actually the work of Kansuke. Of them, only one mentions metsubushi, meant as an attack to be used from horseback during a night raid against an enemy general to incapacitate them. The version I mentioned before is listed, but it also mentions one that even the scroll calls experimental and untested- it's made of a venomous snake, horse manure, and grass wrapped in a tissue. I'm real curious how the author arrived at that concoction, if it's ever been used, and what the result was.

There's an English translation of all four scrolls in a book called "The Sword Scroll: Gunpo Heiho Ki: Kenjutsu no Maki", again attributed to Yamamoto Kansuke. I'm planning to order this myself soon, it sounds interesting.