Okay I'm curious, let's break the new rules

[Dork_Forge]

The premise is pretty simple, using the new variant for stats, what's the most broken and horrendous thing you can create whilst using point buy?

What things would have been suboptimal before that are now able to be stat perfect and thus ripe for abuse?

Things to consider: the new Satyr and Dragonmarked race options

I'm actually curious of the current limits of this (which will obviously be widely expanded by the sheer amount of subclasses and potential reprint changes in Tasha's).

[Blood of Gaea]

Take races with strong features but meh stat spreads like: Kobold, Yuan-Ti Purebred, and Vedalken. Or Races that can be made to fit another archtype well with a stat change, like Satyr, Tortle, Half-Elf or Aarakocra.

Then just match up the racials with where they'd be great.

Pretty much any martial is going to like a race that improves their saves, especially mental or vs. magic. So Vedalken, Yuan-Ti, Satyr, and Gnome become serious considerations for them.

The handful of flying races, like Aarakocra can now be applied to anyone you wish.



So to sum it up, take any of the already strong races, and consider them stronger (with some exceptions in already variable races, like Human).

Speaking of regular human, it's now even worse in comparision to taking Half-Elf or Mountain Dwarf for your MAD needs.

[zinycor]

So, with the customized origin I have been thinking of an Orc (+2 con +1int) Artificer armorer. Aggresive is a very cool trait and I believe it can be super fun.

Also, a druid gnome that gets wis instead of int. That way now it would be a little yoda (I guess yoda could be a wizard, but I imagine him as a druid)

[Arkhios]

Hill Dwarf Paladin: Str +2, Cha +1, swap all racial weapon proficiencies with tool proficiencies (you'll get all simple and martial weapon proficiencies anyway)

Str 17, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16

Extra hit point per level never hurts, even if you don't get a racial bump on constitution.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Hill Dwarf Paladin: Str +2, Cha +1, swap all racial weapon proficiencies with tool proficiencies (you'll get all simple and martial weapon proficiencies anyway)

Str 17, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 16

Extra hit point per level never hurts, even if you don't get a racial bump on constitution.

This amount of tools proficiency is amazing for skill monkeys.

[Blood of Gaea]

This amount of tools proficiency is amazing for skill monkeys.
That's very true in general of weapon granting races. I could see High-Elf being even more attractive to Rogues now. You can pick up Heavy Crossbows, Booming Blade, and three tool proficiences. Alternatively, swap one of those tools for whips, and your subrace to Wood Elf if you'll go the Spellsniper route.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

The premise is pretty simple, using the new variant for stats, what's the most broken and horrendous thing you can create whilst using point buy?

Nothing. No previously unbroken build is going to reach the level of "broken" simply because it gets an additional +1 over what was previously available.


What things would have been suboptimal before that are now able to be stat perfect and thus ripe for abuse?
Abuse? Again, nothing. But viability is not abuse, and several interesting combinations have become viable.


A half-elf Samurai can now get Elven Accuracy at 4 and still have 20 Dex at 8.
Goblins are now strong choices for Hexblades, as they can now perform the Booming Blade/Disengage combo without sacrificing Charisma.
Mark of Finding half-orcs and humans are strong choices for any multiattacker that cannot already access Hex or Hunter's Mark.
Wildhunt Shifters make very good Barbarians once per short/long rest.
Dragonborn make much better Draconic Sorcerers, and in general get a stat boost to their breath save DC.
The Lizardfolk Monk I was only able to play in AL a handful of times would be much better now.
This is not really a particularly synergistic choice, but one can now play Genasi Genie Warlocks and I am (as the youth say) here for it.

[AttilatheYeon]

Goblin hexblade/sorc with +2 int +1 dex or con your choice and Cha 13. 1 level hexblade for HBC. Sorc the rest of the way for magic missile and metamagics. HBC the BBEG then MM it with fury of the small getting prof bonus + level as bonus damage times number of missiles. Second turn create bonfire under it then quicken MM for peof bonus on both bonfire and each MM.

Or if you're level 11 HB1/evoker10. Again HBC the BBG and MM with fury of the small this time getting prof bonus + int bonus + level as bonus damage to each missile. Second round MM again for prof bonus + int bonus again.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Nothing. No previously unbroken build is going to reach the level of "broken" simply because it gets an additional +1 over what was previously available.


Abuse? Again, nothing. But viability is not abuse, and several interesting combinations have become viable.


A half-elf Samurai can now get Elven Accuracy at 4 and still have 20 Dex at 8.
Goblins are now strong choices for Hexblades, as they can now perform the Booming Blade/Disengage combo without sacrificing Charisma.
Mark of Finding half-orcs and humans are strong choices for any multiattacker that cannot already access Hex or Hunter's Mark.
Wildhunt Shifters make very good Barbarians once per short/long rest.
Dragonborn make much better Draconic Sorcerers, and in general get a stat boost to their breath save DC.
The Lizardfolk Monk I was only able to play in AL a handful of times would be much better now.
This is not really a particularly synergistic choice, but one can now play Genasi Genie Warlocks and I am (as the youth say) here for it.


I think the extta feat is an amazing bonus to have.
It may not be broken but it is a big power boost.

[diplomancer]

Goblin hexblade/sorc with +2 int +1 dex or con your choice and Cha 13. 1 level hexblade for HBC. Sorc the rest of the way for magic missile and metamagics. HBC the BBEG then MM it with fury of the small getting prof bonus + level as bonus damage times number of missiles. Second turn create bonfire under it then quicken MM for peof bonus on both bonfire and each MM.

Or if you're level 11 HB1/evoker10. Again HBC the BBG and MM with fury of the small this time getting prof bonus + int bonus + level as bonus damage to each missile. Second round MM again for prof bonus + int bonus again.

Fury of the small does not work like HBC or empowered evocation and can be applied only once, as it does not affect damage rolls, only the damage.

[AttilatheYeon]

Fury of the small does not work like HBC or empowered evocation and can be applied only once, as it does not affect damage rolls, only the damage.

Why wouldn't fury of the small add to HBC or empowered evocation? As for fury of the small not multiplying, i concede that point.

[diplomancer]

Why wouldn't fury of the small add to HBC or empowered evocation? As for fury of the small not multiplying, i concede that point.

Of course it adds to it, and sorry if I gave the impression it didn't. My point was just that it didn't multiply in Magic Missile, unlike those other two features.

One thing which is not entirely clear is AoE spells. I interpret the RAW as only allowing to add the damage to one creature, not to all (unlike empowered evocation)

[Crucius]

Being able to slap Aasimar on everything is I think one of the most 'broken' things damage wise (also with it being a very solid race overall), and even that is not that bad.

[Darthnazrael]

Take races with strong features but meh stat spreads like: Kobold

RAW it appears that Kobolds can't trade out their -2 str, as the new rule only allows you to trade out "increases". Meaning a kobold is still only getting a single +2 ability score, and if they use it on str, it just means they're +0 across the board, effectively.

[cutlery]

Pretty much any martial is going to like a race that improves their saves, especially mental or vs. magic. So Vedalken, Yuan-Ti, Satyr, and Gnome become serious considerations for them.


A Yuan-Ti eldritch knight sounds pretty cool, actually. It's even oddly thematically appropriate. Probably not that broken because after level 12 or so the fighter isn't that broken. A Yuan-Ti wizard, though - that might be something. It's still only spell resists, so won't help con saves for concentration from melee or ranged attacks without a save.


Fallen Aasimar paladin was already pretty easy to do, and I think one of the most busted choices for them (particularly Conquest).


Tools proficiencies are already trivial to get via backgrounds, so I don't see how this is even really an issue. Custom Backgrounds are already in the rules; so you can swap any tool for thieve's tools for any other background, and everyone gets a background.

Spreading around weapon proficiencies for a class that only gets a handful could be nice - much like how high elf weapon training already works for a bladesinger. I don't think that would be particularly broken.

[Stangler]

I don't think there are really any broken races but I think some races benefit from this change more than others.

Pretty much any race with an increase to constitution or intelligence has a lot more options now. Hobgoblin went from totally limited stat allocation wise to a legit choice for any class. Not overpowered by any means but solid. Other races in this category include dwarves, gnomes, a lot of the monstrous races, etc.

I think a lot more builds will be looking closely at half feats at level 4 now because the movable +2. Elven Accuracy was already really good but now it is even better for int, wis or cha based builds.

+2 Wis is far more common now so there will be more cleric and druid builds that are competitive.

There are a fair number of +2 Str races that can now look more closely at classes that dump strength (which is most of them). The most obvious is probably Tortle which was always a solid option for a normally low AC spell caster but they are much easier to build now. Their +2 str was providing nothing. Now they can start at 17 INT or CHA.

Gith always had weird stat bonuses but now don't.

[Man_Over_Game]

Take races with strong features but meh stat spreads like: Kobold, Yuan-Ti Purebred, and Vedalken. Or Races that can be made to fit another archtype well with a stat change, like Satyr, Tortle, Half-Elf or Aarakocra.

Strength-Aarakocra Ancestral Guardian with a polearm, maybe 2 levels into Rogue for Expertise into Athletics and Cunning Action.

Could you imagine? Picking something up, dropping them down to knock them prone, attack something to taunt and then fly away to leave them useless. Spam Reckless Attack without hardly any chance for retaliation unless you want to be attacked.



Man, that'd just be brutal.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

As mentioned before, any Tortlers in the chat? Dipless AC boost for non-martials, especially when at lower levels, seems pretty good.

Monk mountain Dwarfs for 18 Dex/Wis at level 4? Mountain Dwarf anything, really. +2/+2 is great for classes who want to focus on two stats at once.

Eberron Marks remain as power-creep, now doubly so.

Tabaxi now allows for a slightly improved Sonic the Hedgehog build for Monk.

[Willie the Duck]

Generally agree that this change is not enough to 'break' things, but adhering to the premise, there are clearly options that open up.

Mountain dwarf (S* D14 C13+2 I* W* CH 15+2) tomelock with medium armor and cha-based shillelagh who has Con 16, Cha 18, and AC 17 at Level 4 is a decent way to play a non-hexblade warlock with some survivability.
*=arrange to taste amongst 8,10,12

I know advantage works best on rolls in which you already have high numbers, but getting two chances still benefits a Vedalken who forgoes a proficient wisdom save (say, ranger who takes resilient:con or non-samurai fighter who takes resilient:dex).

[OldTrees1]

Can someone remind me of the +3/+0 race? I think it was +3 Con.

As for breaking things, nothing breaks but replace all your races with Half Elf and adjust the point buy. Did your stats increase? If so your old race better have had a good feature that was better than Darkvision + Skills

[Edea]

Can someone remind me of the +3/+0 race? I think it was +3 Con.

As for breaking things, nothing breaks but replace all your races with Half Elf and adjust the point buy. Did your stats increase? If so your old race better have had a good feature that was better than Darkvision + Skills

Changeling gets +2 Cha and +1 variable, wherein the variable can also be added to Cha.

[OldTrees1]

Changeling gets +2 Cha and +1 variable, wherein the variable can also be added to Cha.

Nice.
18/14/14/10/10/08 (+3/+0) Changeling now joins
16/16/14/10/10/10 (+2/+2) Mountain Dwarf and
16/16/16/10/08/08 (+2/+1/+1) Half Elf as strong

[Darthnazrael]

But the new rule specifically prevents stacking. So they're stuck with the usual +2/+1 everyone else gets, unless they want to go for Cha as before.

[x3n0n]

But the new rule specifically prevents stacking. So they're stuck with the usual +2/+1 everyone else gets, unless they want to go for Cha as before.

Right. Just for reference: "If you’d like your character to follow their own path, you may ignore your Ability Score Increase trait and assign ability score increases tailored to your character. Here’s how to do it: take any ability score increase you gain in your race or subrace and apply it to an ability score of your choice. If you gain more than one increase, you can’t apply those increases to the same ability score, and you can’t increase a score above 20."

[sithlordnergal]

For your consideration:

Goblin Paladin, +2 Strength, +1 Charisma, bonus action to disengage as needed, and Fury of the Small to boost that Smite damage.

Hobgoblin Bard/Warlock, +2 to Charisma, +1 to Dex, Saving face for your skill needs

[ftafp]

I think people are grossly overstating the value of a +1 bonus in combat. The real treat wasn't in the new racial rules, it was in the adventure

The Doppleganger secret in Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden is a replacement for your racial traits. On one hand you don't get your ability score modifierss, or your proficiencies, but you do get at-will detect thoughts, and more importantly the doppleganger's shapeshifting, which is significantly more powerful than the changeling's because it changes your size and is not constrained by body plan

Race: Doppleganger
Background: Sailor
Class: Echo Knight X

What's so good about this? Well, for starters, the Monster Manual lists a Sahuagin Baron as a Humanoid, which means a Doppleganger whose seen one (such as one with a Sailor background) can shapeshift into one. The thing is, the Sahuagin Baron is Large, meaning that according to the Dungeon Master's Guide, its weapon attacks deal twice as many damage dice. It also has four arms, meaning you can use PAM and GWM effectively critting on every ht AND still have a shield

[OldTrees1]

I think people are grossly overstating the value of a +1 bonus in combat. The real treat wasn't in the new racial rules, it was in the adventure

The Doppleganger secret in Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden is a replacement for your racial traits. On one hand you don't get your ability score modifierss, or your proficiencies, but you do get at-will detect thoughts, and more importantly the doppleganger's shapeshifting, which is significantly more powerful than the changeling's because it changes your size and is not constrained by body plan

Wait, I knew about that secret replacing your racial traits, but I did not know it gave you the doppleganger race's racial traits. Is this true? Does it mean you could be a Half Elf with +2/+1/+1 and the Doppleganger traits?

[Hael]

Goblin shepherd druids were already really strong, and they basically get a free asi from the change.

[ftafp]

Wait, I knew about that secret replacing your racial traits, but I did not know it gave you the doppleganger race's racial traits. Is this true? Does it mean you could be a Half Elf with +2/+1/+1 and the Doppleganger traits?

no, the secret only gives you 60' of darkvision, at will Detect Thoughts (Int) and the shapeshifting which functions like a changeling except that it changes your size and is only restricted to the Humanoid type, not body plan.

As for the ability modifiers, I've been saying no this whole time but it occurs to me there are some serious issues RAW. For example, you also don't start knowing any languages or having a movement speed because those are racial traits

[Naanomi]

Kobold Battlesmith, 6/14/14/16/12/8
Ride that Robot with Mounted Combatant

[rlc]

no, the secret only gives you 60' of darkvision, at will Detect Thoughts (Int) and the shapeshifting which functions like a changeling except that it changes your size and is only restricted to the Humanoid type, not body plan.

As for the ability modifiers, I've been saying no this whole time but it occurs to me there are some serious issues RAW. For example, you also don't start knowing any languages or having a movement speed because those are racial traits

I mean, a doppelganger has a speed of 30 feet and knows common, but you're right that that technically isn't listed in the secret (unless it is, I guess somebody with the book can probably confirm)

[jaappleton]

Not 'broken' per se

First one:I like Hobgoblin Divine Soul. Saving Face and Favored By the Gods is two nice ways to help your saving throws, both recharging on a short rest. And you get Light Armor, plus some weapon proficiencies.

Second: I really like the idea of a Firbolg Monk or Warlock. Most of their racial features recharge on a short rest, so they synergize pretty well in that aspect. Firbolgs were already a somewhat decent choice for Monks, but this make it more definitive.

[OldTrees1]

no, the secret only gives you 60' of darkvision, at will Detect Thoughts (Int) and the shapeshifting which functions like a changeling except that it changes your size and is only restricted to the Humanoid type, not body plan.

As for the ability modifiers, I've been saying no this whole time but it occurs to me there are some serious issues RAW. For example, you also don't start knowing any languages or having a movement speed because those are racial traits

I want to know more. I am loving this secret.

These sound like Doppelganger racial traits.
Darkvision 60ft
Detect Thoughts at will
Humanoid only shapeshifting

Edit: I went and looked of an image of the page with the secret. I have no idea about speed or ability modifiers.

[ftafp]

I mean, a doppelganger has a speed of 30 feet and knows common, but you're right that that technically isn't listed in the secret (unless it is, I guess somebody with the book can probably confirm)


I want to know more. I am loving this secret.

These sound like Doppelganger racial traits.
Darkvision 60ft
Detect Thoughts at will
Humanoid only shapeshifting

The secret only mentions these three traits, and that you have none of the racial traits of your race, though you retain your class and background features and alignment. It doesn't say that you use doppleganger stat block. it's honestly really poorly worded

[PhantomSoul]

RAW it appears that Kobolds can't trade out their -2 str, as the new rule only allows you to trade out "increases". Meaning a kobold is still only getting a single +2 ability score, and if they use it on str, it just means they're +0 across the board, effectively.

Not a problem; looks like they're also trashing the -2 anyway
(at least, that's what seems to be replicated on a lot of sites)

[Amechra]

Being able to slap Aasimar on everything is I think one of the most 'broken' things damage wise (also with it being a very solid race overall), and even that is not that bad.

A Scourge Aasimar that swaps their Charisma out for Strength is a fantastic Barbarian. Not only does it give you globs of extra damage to throw around (go ahead and grapple someone, and fry them with radiation), Radiant Consumption also lets you keep up Rage without attacking, which would normally risk ending your Rage. Which is great if you need to Dash to reach something new to attack, or use Healing Hands to keep an ally from dying.

Another surprisingly interesting combination is a Half-Orc Monk. Savage Attacks has plenty of chances of proccing thanks to Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, and Orcish Fury would be fun on a Kensei.

[Blood of Gaea]

Another surprisingly interesting combination is a Half-Orc Monk. Savage Attacks has plenty of chances of proccing thanks to Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows, and Orcish Fury would be fun on a Kensei.
I could see some potential there with UA Crusher feat. +2 Dex, +1 Wis lets you start with 17 Dex, which you can round off with the halft feat. When you get a crit you do an extra die of damage and also gain advantage on that creature until the end of your next turn.

I'd also want to suggest Champion Fighter with that, but it's a pretty steep hit to your Ki, especially early on. Perhaps at a higher level?

[rlc]

The secret only mentions these three traits, and that you have none of the racial traits of your race, though you retain your class and background features and alignment. It doesn't say that you use doppleganger stat block. it's honestly really poorly worded

Hopefully Tasha caught that and fixes it in her book

Edit: or, polymorphing fixes this issue. I'm going with that one.

[Arkhios]

Mountain Dwarf STRogue/skill monkey: +2 Str, +2 Dex; as before, all racial weapons to tools.

Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8
4th level: Medium Armor Master
8th level: Athlete (Str 18)
10th level: Str 20
12th level: Tough
16th level: Con 16
19th level: Con 19

[micahaphone]

Mountain Dwarf STRogue/skill monkey: +2 Str, +2 Dex; as before, all racial weapons to tools.

Str 17, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 8
4th level: Medium Armor Master
8th level: Athlete (Str 18)
10th level: Str 20
12th level: Tough
16th level: Con 16
19th level: Con 19

Nah you need to turn those martial weapons into rapier and longbow.

[zinycor]

Hardly breaks anything, but tabaxi able to get wis is pretty cool for a monk build.

[MaxWilson]

Nah you need to turn those martial weapons into rapier and longbow.

Rogues already have rapier proficiency.

[Arkhios]

Rogues already have rapier proficiency.

And shortbow. 1d6 is good enough as is the range.

[Cyclops08]

Wait. What are these new rules we are speaking of. is this a UA thing?
any links, please?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Wait. What are these new rules we are speaking of. is this a UA thing?
any links, please?

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618956-quot-Customizing-your-Origin-in-D-amp-D-quot

Basically you can move the attribute bonus (not to the same attribute).
Choose weapon and tool prof.
Change language

[MinotaurWarrior]

Birds were broken at low levels before, and have more broken combos now.

Birdlock (/sorlock) - you win outdoors, you are no longer behind the curve indoors

Birdbearian (/Rogue) - You more reliably are able to get the drop attack in on enemies without flying speeds, while regularly being able to do the normal barb rogue things indoors. Level 3, you have +7 to Grapple, with advantage, and can then dash up and drop for 5d6 (17.5) damage.

Small races in strength classes are a new avenue for busted low level play, in situations where you can exploit mastiffs (45-80' movement, no OA vulnerability, etc). You could already do this situationally, there's just more available builds. Maybe there's a build here that stays busted past level 5, but I don't see it.

Not quite broken, but I think it's funny that this reverses the joke of neverwinter nights 2, and mountain dwarfs are now the best monks, especially at level 5 (18 Dex & Wis)

Tortle spellcasters, but especially wizards, are probably a bit OP at low levels. It's +1 AC vs dwarf, and allows you to sacrifice Dex for Con.

Similarly, bugbear spellcasters are probably pretty good for the 2d6 bonus damage when 7hp is life and death.

Because lower levels are swingier by nature, I think they're the main place where these changes are capable of "breaking" things. In tier 2 I think class features will dominate racial features and the major downside will just be flavor fails and the further homogeneity of chosen races.

[jaappleton]

MinotaurWarrior has an excellent point about winged races becoming amazing Barbarians. Typically a way to mitigate their effectiveness is to be at range, especially with flying enemies.

Now they can outright fly right to the big dragon up in the sky, or fly over and around enemies and get right to the squishy mages in the back.

They could always do these things, but now with better stats for it.

[OldTrees1]

MinotaurWarrior has an excellent point about winged races becoming amazing Barbarians. Typically a way to mitigate their effectiveness is to be at range, especially with flying enemies.

Now they can outright fly right to the big dragon up in the sky, or fly over and around enemies and get right to the squishy mages in the back.

They could always do these things, but now with better stats for it.

Reminds me of the 3E Dragonborn martials. Flight is good on everyone.

[micahaphone]

I still feel like aarakokra are a bad idea outside of certain campaigns, they still have disadvantage on attacks/skills when indoors, right? Or am I thinking of a different bird person? Being dominant in the open field is a poor trade for sucking in a dungeon.

[Edea]

I still feel like aarakokra are a bad idea outside of certain campaigns, they still have disadvantage on attacks/skills when indoors, right? Or am I thinking of a different bird person? Being dominant in the open field is a poor trade for sucking in a dungeon.

They do not. Aarakocra's official printing is basically a stat block with flight and a 1d4 slashing auto-proficient unarmed attack. There's no disadvantage on anything.

[Cyclops08]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618956-quot-Customizing-your-Origin-in-D-amp-D-quot

Basically you can move the attribute bonus (not to the same attribute).
Choose weapon and tool prof.
Change language
Thank you for linking to the rules.
My take on this is essentially, no one will ever play a human character.

standard array will end up as 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, 8 in most cases.
a point buy could be 15, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8 to be 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 8

humans won't measure up in the long run (at least to min-maxers)

I would like to see standard humans at least get the same treatment, but I've no idea how to work Variant Humans in. I always played Var Human just to get an early feat.

[micahaphone]

They do not. Aarakocra's official printing is basically a stat block with flight and a 1d4 slashing auto-proficient unarmed attack. There's no disadvantage on anything.

Man, what the hell was I thinking of? I can't find it now. I remember playing with someone in a 5E game that had disadvantage when indoors, I don't remember us using any homebrew. I must be misremembering.

[MinotaurWarrior]

Man, what the hell was I thinking of? I can't find it now. I remember playing with someone in a 5E game that had disadvantage when indoors, I don't remember us using any homebrew. I must be misremembering.

You might be confusing lowercase and uppercase disadvantage?

Birds can't wear heavy armor and fly, and some DMs may disallow flying in certain indoor situations, and their walking speed is slow.

Also they just have such a huge advantage outdoors, it can feel like the indoors are a disadvantage by comparison.

The only other thing I can think of is maybe some UA?

[x3n0n]

Thank you for linking to the rules.
My take on this is essentially, no one will ever play a human character.

standard array will end up as 16, 16, 13, 12, 10, 8 in most cases.
a point buy could be 15, 14, 14, 10, 10, 8 to be 16, 16, 14, 10, 10, 8

humans won't measure up in the long run (at least to min-maxers)

I would like to see standard humans at least get the same treatment, but I've no idea how to work Variant Humans in. I always played Var Human just to get an early feat.

I will be interested to see how this goes in the long run. According to some WotC stuff, standard human is by far the most commonly chosen race, even though it is *very* rarely the best choice mechanically. There have been recent (and presumably less recent) threads discussing how unappealing standard human is to system-savvy folks; as you say, this does not improve with this variant rule.

I think most people would agree that Variant Human is among the top 5 races for any class in the pre-variant world (between the ability versatility and the rest, which can be a huge deal, especially in the first 8ish levels). Again, as you said, this does not improve matters for them... But one could argue that they don't need any help. This will add new races to the top, but I think v.human will hold up just fine (especially as new feats are added).

[Man_Over_Game]

Typically a way to mitigate their effectiveness is to be at range, especially with flying enemies.

It extends past just being a Barbarian, though. Ancestral Guardian Barbarians scale with damage avoidance, so being able to taunt a target and then run away makes a flying Barbarian incredibly powerful. Now you don't need PAM, Mobile, Monk levels, Rogue levels, or any of that.

Hell, if I didn't care about DPS, I'd just rock two whips with Dual Wielder, never use Reckless Attack to keep my AC up, leverage that Rage damage bonus and laugh as hardly any boss can ever hit my team ever again. I might even pick up Sentinel and hover near a second enemy to lock them down if they ever attempt to ignore me while still staying out of range.

There is some serious BS I could pull off with this, and that's before looking into cool, plausible interactions like "Can I grapple him with a whip?".


[Edit] Oh man, my mouth is watering from this for a 17 AG, 3 Scout build. Imagine being able to grapple someone and just drag him while avoiding the fight as a Reaction.

[jaappleton]

It extends past just being a Barbarian, though. Ancestral Guardian Barbarians scale with damage avoidance, so being able to taunt a target and then run away makes a flying Barbarian incredibly powerful.

Especially with a Glaive, for extended reach, or Mobile.

Wow this is looking like a very solid combo.

[da newt]

I'd like to try a party of all Goblins, mostly casters, all stealth, all ranged - every turn ends with "I hide."

The idea of an atypical party composition and roles intrigues me.

[micahaphone]

I'd like to try a party of all Goblins, mostly casters, all stealth, all ranged - every turn ends with "I hide."

The idea of an atypical party composition and roles intrigues me.

I did a stealth team one shot once, it was great fun. Just lots of reconnaissance, avoiding guards and enemies and one round kill breach&clear. Our moon druid used Pass Without Trace to buff us, and then giant snake form to grapple and silence one enemy (that last bit was partially the DM playing along I suppose, but you can't shout very loud when your torso's being squeezed) while the rest of the party killed the others. Moon druid, thief rogue, shadow sorcerer, shadow monk (who played siblings).

[Arkhios]

Thank you for linking to the rules.
My take on this is essentially, no one will ever play a human character.

I will. I'm not no one. :smalltongue:

I'm of the opinion that if someone else likes the option to adjust and play other races, good for them, I won't judge.

[Edea]

Oh, I'll play a human.

I just won't use the Standard (or Variant) Human stat-blocks in the PHB, because the former sucks and the latter is...well, variant.

I'll pick a more mechanically robust chassis and skin the flavor off of it. Probably the Half-Elf's.

[Dork_Forge]

Oh, I'll play a human.

I just won't use the Standard (or Variant) Human stat-blocks in the PHB, because the former sucks and the latter is...well, variant.

I'll pick a more mechanically robust chassis and skin the flavor off of it. Probably the Half-Elf's.

If it's eligible in your games, there's some nice Dragonmarked humans that just got a lot more flexible.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Anybody who thinks no one will play humans severely underestimates the power of a first-level bonus feat.

Standard humans may see a drop-off, but standard human is terrible anyway.

[Darthnazrael]

Standard humans have always been borderline unplayable. Vhumans remain one of if not the best race in the game. Tasha's just allowed some other races to catch up a bit.

[OldTrees1]

Especially with a Glaive, for extended reach, or Mobile.

Wow this is looking like a very solid combo.

I think this is what the Aarakocra Anscentral Guardian Barbarian Archer looked like. 16 Dex and keeping one foe at Disadvantage.

Now it has an easier time multiclassing to Cleric for Ancestral Guardians.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think this is what the Aarakocra Anscentral Guardian Barbarian Archer looked like. 16 Dex and keeping one foe at Disadvantage.

Now it has an easier time multiclassing to Cleric for Ancestral Guardians.

Barbarian
Archer
Cleric
Aarakocra
"Now it has an easier time multiclassing to Cleric" (Birdymen naturally have a Wisdom bonus)
"For Ancestral Guardians (spell)"


I think I'm missing something here.

I can understand Barbarian AG + Archer on a conceptual level, but...you lost me past that.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Standard Humans can have five 14s and a 10. It seems like a strong starting point for a MC that’s looking for a deep combination of features from disappeared sources. Particularly if baseline features help offset accuracy problems (reckless attack/familiars/pack tactics etc.)

Or just a Bard that really wants to make use of Jack of all trades.

“Almost as good at everything” is in practice a fine jumping off point.

[OldTrees1]

Barbarian
Archer
Cleric
Aarakocra
"Now it has an easier time multiclassing to Cleric" (Birdymen naturally have a Wisdom bonus)
"For Ancestral Guardians (spell)"


I think I'm missing something here.

I can understand Barbarian AG + Archer on a conceptual level, but...you lost me past that.

With the new rules this Archer could be a Glaive wielding flyer instead. That switch from Dex to Str makes hitting 13+ Str easier for the multiclass Barbarian/Cleric.

[Darthnazrael]

Bugbear Gloomstalker archer was already strong, but now it can switch out str for wis, and make the dex the +2.

[Wildstag]

I guess Triton's would be really fun. The new rule would allow you to play a MAD character that revolves around any three ability scores, since they get a +1/+1/+1 spread. You can use the 15/15/15/8/8/8 spread to just give yourself three 16s. Their current spread works really well for making Paladins.

Bugbears are already fun, but shifting their +2 to Dexterity and swapping their skill proficiency for a non-rogue skill.

Half-elves, with their +2/+1/+1 and two free skill proficiencies become even more powerful. They were already one of the stronger races to play (out of the PHB options), but now they're even more versatile than ever before! Probably pointed out by someone else in the thread though, sorry if I'm late.

I can't say any of this would really break the game though. It'd just make min-maxing more fun.

[Dork_Forge]

I guess Triton's would be really fun. The new rule would allow you to play a MAD character that revolves around any three ability scores, since they get a +1/+1/+1 spread. You can use the 15/15/15/8/8/8 spread to just give yourself three 16s. Their current spread works really well for making Paladins.

Bugbears are already fun, but shifting their +2 to Dexterity and swapping their skill proficiency for a non-rogue skill.

Half-elves, with their +2/+1/+1 and two free skill proficiencies become even more powerful. They were already one of the stronger races to play (out of the PHB options), but now they're even more versatile than ever before! Probably pointed out by someone else in the thread though, sorry if I'm late.

I can't say any of this would really break the game though. It'd just make min-maxing more fun.

Personally it goes to the opposite direction, if everything is so flexible it just makes min-maxing easier, I like the challenge of it sometimes.

[Man_Over_Game]

With the new rules this Archer could be a Glaive wielding flyer instead. That switch from Dex to Str makes hitting 13+ Str easier for the multiclass Barbarian/Cleric.

Just not sure why you'd want to go Barbarian/Cleric in the first place, considering you can't Rage and Concentrate on a spell at the same time, and the fact that you're playing a tank that kites with Spirit Guardians (I think that's what you meant by Ancestral Guardians)

[zinycor]

Just not sure why you'd want to go Barbarian/Cleric in the first place, considering you can't Rage and Concentrate on a spell at the same time, and the fact that you're playing a tank that kites with Spirit Guardians (I think that's what you meant by Ancestral Guardians)

It seems pretty reasonable to me, you can only rage a limited number of times per day and getting cleric spells gives a lot of utility to the character.

Edit: I believe Ancestral guardian means the path of the ancestral guardian.

[MaxWilson]

Just not sure why you'd want to go Barbarian/Cleric in the first place, considering you can't Rage and Concentrate on a spell at the same time, and the fact that you're playing a tank that kites with Spirit Guardians (I think that's what you meant by Ancestral Guardians)

They mean Ancestral Protectors, the Ancestral Guardian Barb 3 feature. You're thinking of the spell Spiritual Guardians but it's not that.

[Damon_Tor]

A half-elf Samurai can now get Elven Accuracy at 4 and still have 20 Dex at 8.

Point of fact: they get to 20 dex at level 6. 15 Dex to start, +2 Racial, +1 from EA, +2 from 6th level ASI.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think there are really any broken races but I think some races benefit from this change more than others.

Gith always had weird stat bonuses but now don't. A Gith Monk becomes something that I may consider - them Gith is ugly. As my brain works, I have to dump the Cha stat for any Gith, so obviously I need to stretch and come up with a Gith Vengeance Paladin or some such. Might work out, need to puzzle that one out ...
Hardly breaks anything, but Tabaxi able to get Wis is pretty cool for a monk build. Yeah.

Point of fact: they get to 20 dex at level 6. 15 Dex to start, +2 Racial, +1 from EA, +2 from 6th level ASI. Noice. Once again, I see how this gets called "an elf game" with some frequency.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Point of fact: they get to 20 dex at level 6. 15 Dex to start, +2 Racial, +1 from EA, +2 from 6th level ASI.

Elves could already do this. Shadar-kai and sea elves even had perfect stats for it. Half-elf does not gain much over that.

[Dork_Forge]

Elves could already do this. Shadar-kai and sea elves even had perfect stats for it. Half-elf does not gain much over that.

They gain an additional +1, access to both EA and Prodigy as well as the list of variants in the SCAG. A Samurai ideally wants to go Dex, Con and Wis, the Half Elf under these rules permits bonuses to all with plenty of racial traits and future options.

[Finney]

Anybody who thinks no one will play humans severely underestimates the power of a first-level bonus feat.

Standard humans may see a drop-off, but standard human is terrible anyway.

I couldn't agree more.

I am typically the DM at my table and I imagine the next session zero will unfold something like this:

Me: There is a new variant rule that allows you to ignore the ability score increase trait for races and assign those bonuses to the ability scores of your choice. Sounds great, right? Maybe now you won't feel compelled to always play a variant human.

Me: So what races do you think you will play in this campaign?

Player 1: Variant Human

Player 2: Variant Human

Player 3: Variant Human

Player 4: Variant Human

[zinycor]

I couldn't agree more.

I am typically the DM at my table and I imagine the next session zero will unfold something like this:

Me: There is a new variant rule that allows you to ignore the ability score increase trait for races and assign those bonuses to the ability scores of your choice. Sounds great, right? Maybe now you won't feel compelled to always play a variant human.

Me: So what races do you think you will play in this campaign?

Player 1: Variant Human

Player 2: Variant Human

Player 3: Variant Human

Player 4: Variant Human

I relate to this so much xD

[OldTrees1]

Just not sure why you'd want to go Barbarian/Cleric in the first place, considering you can't Rage and Concentrate on a spell at the same time, and the fact that you're playing a tank that kites with Spirit Guardians (I think that's what you meant by Ancestral Guardians)

Basically it would be the option to use either Ancestral Protectors or Spirit Guardians in a fight depending on the type of enemies.

Spiritual Weapon + Rage + Ancestral Protectors for brutes
Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians for hordes

[KorvinStarmast]

Me: So what races do you think you will play in this campaign?

Player 1: Variant Human

Player 2: Variant Human

Player 3: Variant Human

Player 4: Variant Human You got room for a fifth player? :smallbiggrin:

[tsuyoshikentsu]

They gain an additional +1, access to both EA and Prodigy as well as the list of variants in the SCAG. A Samurai ideally wants to go Dex, Con and Wis, the Half Elf under these rules permits bonuses to all with plenty of racial traits and future options.

Their +1 does not help them unless they wish to go 16/16/16/8/8/8. Otherwise, the elf can go 16/16/14/10/10/8 and the best the half-elf can do is 16/16/14/12/10/8. (They could also go 16/16/15/10/10/8 and get a Wisdom half-feat instead of an ASI, I suppose.) Prodigy is nice but likely worse than another ASI, and that just leaves two trained skills (or their substitutes) verses Shadar-Kai or Sea Elf racials. I consider that last a wash.

It certainly does increase the breadth of acceptable options for the build, but it is not doing anything particularly new or special.

[diplomancer]

I couldn't agree more.

I am typically the DM at my table and I imagine the next session zero will unfold something like this:

Me: There is a new variant rule that allows you to ignore the ability score increase trait for races and assign those bonuses to the ability scores of your choice. Sounds great, right? Maybe now you won't feel compelled to always play a variant human.

Me: So what races do you think you will play in this campaign?

Player 1: Variant Human

Player 2: Variant Human

Player 3: Variant Human

Player 4: Variant Human

Just out of curiosity... do you always start your campaigns at 1st level?

[Finney]

Just out of curiosity... do you always start your campaigns at 1st level?

Not always.

My last campaign the characters started play at level 11. However, I always use the point buy method for character creation and I use a modified version of the multiclassing rules (to prevent dips), so variant humans are generally very popular in my games even when characters start out higher than first level.

[diplomancer]

Not always.

My last campaign the characters started play at level 11. However, I always use the point buy method for character creation and I use a modified version of the multiclassing rules (to prevent dips), so variant humans are generally very popular in my games even when characters start out higher than first level.

Interesting. To me, V. Humans are very tempting if starting from 1st level, but if I'm starting higher I consider other races.

With this rule? Yuan-ti gets 1st spot for me, or M. Dwarf for MAD builds.

Starting at higher levels, M. Dwarf is strictly better than V. human with these rules for MAD classes, unless you REALLY want that extra skill.

[Dork_Forge]

Their +1 does not help them unless they wish to go 16/16/16/8/8/8. Otherwise, the elf can go 16/16/14/10/10/8 and the best the half-elf can do is 16/16/14/12/10/8. (They could also go 16/16/15/10/10/8 and get a Wisdom half-feat instead of an ASI, I suppose.) Prodigy is nice but likely worse than another ASI, and that just leaves two trained skills (or their substitutes) verses Shadar-Kai or Sea Elf racials. I consider that last a wash.

It certainly does increase the breadth of acceptable options for the build, but it is not doing anything particularly new or special.

What? additional stat bumps will always help stats in comparison to fewer stat bumps. Whether or not you find that improvement to stats significant is one thing, but it is factually an improvement over lower stats.

Prodigy being worse than an ASI is entirely subjective to the character, if the player wants to be a skill monkey or specialise in something like grappling, then it holds clear value over a single ASI.

You either didn't notice or chose to ignore the Half Elf variants, which can swap the skills for a variety of things including a cantrip, Drow casting, swim speed etc. A Sea Elf's traits are fairly niche in anything but a seafaring campaign and whilst cool, the Shadar-Kai's racials are both out of the player's control (they need to come across necrotic damage) and partially level gated.

That's if the player doesn't want two skills of their choice, which is a fantastic ability itself.

[MinotaurWarrior]

One new idea that occurred to me is Yuan-Ti martials, but especially non EK fighters.

It's not just the magic resistance, but the lack of an opportunity cost to concentrating on suggestion. Your DC may be low, but just a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of an extra ally is huge if you weren't going to be doing anything else with your concentration anyway.

Again, by tier two I think this isn't a big deal, but it may cause some problems.

[Spiritchaser]

One new idea that occurred to me is Yuan-Ti martials, but especially non EK fighters.

It's not just the magic resistance, but the lack of an opportunity cost to concentrating on suggestion. Your DC may be low, but just a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of an extra ally is huge if you weren't going to be doing anything else with your concentration anyway.

Again, by tier two I think this isn't a big deal, but it may cause some problems.

This worked before. Even without the right stats, at least for fighter builds. With an extra ASI, you got the stats you needed soon enough.

There’s no question this will make life better in the first few levels, and you could certainly call it early level specific power creep, but I don’t see this as broken.

[OldTrees1]

One new idea that occurred to me is Yuan-Ti martials, but especially non EK fighters.

It's not just the magic resistance, but the lack of an opportunity cost to concentrating on suggestion. Your DC may be low, but just a 1/3 or 1/4 chance of an extra ally is huge if you weren't going to be doing anything else with your concentration anyway.

Again, by tier two I think this isn't a big deal, but it may cause some problems.

Consider being a Paladin so you get to buff and defend that new ally. But there already have been Yuan Ti Paladins (one defeated the death curse of the Tomb of Annihilation)

[jaappleton]

Veldaken Paladin.

[MinotaurWarrior]

This worked before. Even without the right stats, at least for fighter builds. With an extra ASI, you got the stats you needed soon enough.

There’s no question this will make life better in the first few levels, and you could certainly call it early level specific power creep, but I don’t see this as broken.

Well I'm talking specifically levels 3-5. I get the instinct to say "you got the stats you needed soon enough" but "soon enough" is several levels later, and more importantly IRL possibly weeks or months. Or never, in an intentional one shot or game that ends early.

I don't think the Yuan-Ti fighter is anywhere near as powerful as the Birdlock or birdbarb, but in any if this cases I think the threshold for "broken" isn't "is this broken on average across all levels across all adventures" but "does this have the potential to break sessions of adventures"

Birdlocks and birdbarbs (like bird clerics and bird rangers and to a lesser extent bird monks before them) clearly break a lot of low level sessions. You basically just win outdoor encounters without question or cost, and sometimes they even break core narrative turning points of modules (e.g. The start of LMoP doesn't make sense with the party flying in the air, there may be some modules where being unable to get somewhere fliable is important.) A DM can work around this, but that's repair work necessitated by player's chosing an option that broke something.

Idk that level 3 Yuan-Ti fighters rise to that level necessarily, but I don't think their balance at level 12 can be used to say they are not broken at lower levels.

[No brains]

The best way I have to 'break' the game with these rules is to play a rock gnome and switch out your tinker's tools proficiency. There's a few ways of looking at this:


You can't make your creations from Tinker until you become proficient in tinker's tools.
You can still make your creations using tinker's tools, despite having no skill with them
You can still make your creations, but you do so with your new tools. (whatever those tools are)
You lag the game by making the DM waste RAM processing this.

[OldTrees1]

The best way I have to 'break' the game with these rules is to play a rock gnome and switch out your tinker's tools proficiency. There's a few ways of looking at this:


You can't make your creations from Tinker until you become proficient in tinker's tools.
You can still make your creations using tinker's tools, despite having no skill with them
You can still make your creations, but you do so with your new tools. (whatever those tools are)
You lag the game by making the DM waste RAM processing this.


4b The DM calls for an untrained Int check to use the ability until you become proficient.

[Vulsutyr]

You can still make your creations, but you do so with your new tools. (whatever those tools are)



I want it to be this one. Carpenter's tools, it's a wooden machine. Glassblower? glass creature. Brewer's supplies? you whip up a drink to accompany you

[poolio]

Seeing some of the things that can be swapped around now, what even is the point of races anymore?

[Damon_Tor]

Anybody who thinks no one will play humans severely underestimates the power of a first-level bonus feat.

Standard humans may see a drop-off, but standard human is terrible anyway.

An advantage that vanishes entirely by 4th level. After that point, a Mountan Dwarf or Half Elf are strictly superior.

Weird that a change ostensibly made to combat racism has simply led to the rise of master races and untermensch.

[Mjolnirbear]

An advantage that vanishes entirely by 4th level. After that point, a Mountan Dwarf or Half Elf are strictly superior.

Weird that a change ostensibly made to combat racism has simply led to the rise of master races and untermensch.

You mean at level 4, when the variant human can have two feats to the dwarf's one feat?

[Damon_Tor]

You mean at level 4, when the variant human can have two feats to the dwarf's one feat?

There are feats worth -1 damage and ~10% fewer hit. There are not two feats collectively worth -2 damage and ~20% fewer hits.

[micahaphone]

There are feats worth -1 damage and ~10% fewer hit. There are not two feats collectively worth -2 damage and ~20% fewer hits.

No love for Sentinel + PAM creating the ultimate buffer zone? :smalltongue:

[stoutstien]

No love for Sentinel + PAM creating the ultimate buffer zone? :smalltongue:

Frankly an over rates combo unless you only fight single target encounters with NPCs with no alternative tactics than smash them with my fist.
It's a good combo but 2 feats is a heavy cost for a single trick.

[Damon_Tor]

No love for Sentinel + PAM creating the ultimate buffer zone? :smalltongue:

It's not worth going from hitting on a 10 to hitting on a 12, no.

[Willie the Duck]

Weird that a change ostensibly made to combat racism has simply led to the rise of master races and untermensch.

'This patch to an existing system (a sprawling, exception-based system with specifics that take pages to say) will totally solve this problem, even though it doesn't replace the system, so much as tweak it in one specific way (that can be easily described in a paragraph or two)' is not the way not to make winners and losers. Pretty sure the designers knew this, but considered it the fix at which they could succeed. High elves are not now clear-and-away better wizards than half-orcs, and that's pretty much the scope I think they wanted to address.

[zinycor]

High elves are not now clear-and-away better wizards than half-orcs, and that's pretty much the scope I think they wanted to address.

They (and dwarves) might be the best artificers, since they can replace their whole bunch of weapon proficiencies for tool proficiencies.

[jaappleton]

High Elves are, however, now an excellent race for Clerics that want to take a SCAG cantrip.

[da newt]

"High Elves are, however, now an excellent race for Clerics that want to take a SCAG cantrip."

Rogues who want one too.

[Damon_Tor]

High elves are not now clear-and-away better wizards than half-orcs...

No, but now Mountain Dwarves/Half-Elves are, while ALSO becoming better choices for classes at which the Half-Orcs used to excel. If their goal was to make the game less "racist" they failed spectacularly.

They should not have allowed the +2 to float, period. They turn into a +1 if you float them. A really simple, and obvious, solution that I can't imagine they didn't think of.

[Damon_Tor]

High Elves are, however, now an excellent race for Clerics that want to take a SCAG cantrip.

This would be more compelling if Half Elves didn't also have access to this ability.