Winners and Losers from "Customizing Your Origin"

[Darthnazrael]

Adventurer's League has spoiled the new Origin rules from TCoE, and I think they're a wonderful thing for the game and the culture around it. I'm sad they didnt address the admittedly more mechanically complex issue of mixed-race characters that aren't human/elf or human/orc, but that's for another time. Right now, I wanted to look over this new mechanic from an optimization standpoint.

First, I should address that, while I am going to be assessing this from the viewpoint of winners and losers, this is for the purpose of relative comparison when choosing a race for your character. No race, and therefore no character, got weaker from this rule. Others may have gotten stronger, though, and therefore become a more optimal choice, but your Kenku Ranger character is still just fine. With that aside, let's begin:

Suck it.
This point is the most obvious, so let's get it out of the way first. Since a particular character generally tries to only have one attack stat, certain combinations of ability scores are often suboptimal.
Any pair of 'mental' ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha): These are the most benefitted, as it is the rare build indeed that wants a boost to two mental stats. Benefactors here include: Vedalkens. Kalashtar. Protector Aasimar. Githzerai. Some Tieflings. This was the only thing holding back Yuan-Ti at all, and now they're pretty much unadulterated awesome. They even have 2 uncommon languages to trade away.
Str + Mental stat: Not as terrible as above, but these stat arrays tend to pigeonhole a race into one or two classes: Str/Wis is lucky to work with both Clerics and Rangers, but Str/Cha is only good for Paladins, and Str/Int is pretty much limited to Eldritch Knights. Now all of these races have so many more options. Examples: Dragonborn. Githyanki. Firbolg. Centaurs. Fallen Aasimar. Zariel Tieflings.
Races with Mismatched Features and Stats: This is much more case-by-case than the others. Some races have features that align poorly or overlap with the classes their original ability score bumps point them towards. Goblins have great rogue stats, but their hallmark feature, Nimble Escape, just duplicates part of Cunning Action. Now Goblin casters can benefit from Nimble Escape and Fury of the Small while bumping their casting stat. Other examples include: Leonin Conquest Paladins who will want Cha. Lizardfolk martials who want Dex or Str. Loxodon grapplers who want Str. Any castery race with the wrong/no casting stat for the class you want to play.
It's no secret that the devs love Elves. They've gotten a ton of love, including a ton of subraces (possibly only outnumbered by Tiefling? I haven't counted), their own (strong) unique subclass, and the best unique feat by a country mile. Now this ruling doesn't benefit elves more than other, specifically. But because all of these pre-existing boosts, this ruling makes every build ask "why not just be an elf/half-elf?" Elves already had access to +1 in any stat but Str, but now they can bump their main stat to +2, or even go Str (though these builds still can't make use of Elven Accuracy). Also, being able to trade out martial weapon proficiencies for Tool Proficiencies adds even more versatility to an already versatile race.

Half-Elves get all of the above, only more so. See in the next spoiler.
When the idea of stat swaps first leaked, I expected everyone (except maybe Humans) would switch to a +2/+1 split of wildcard stats. But that's not what we got. Instead, whatever increase your race gives, they're now wildcards. This means these 3 races benefit from their uncommon spreads: +2/+1/+1 for Half-Elves, +2/+2 for Mountain Dwarves, and +1/+1/+1 for Tritons. Triton is definitely the weakest of these 3, but it can really shine in a game with rolled stats as opposed to point buy, to correct three odd rolls.
Changelings would seem to belong in the above Winners category, as they've always been able to stack their wildcard ability score for a total +3 Charisma. However, the new rule specifically prevents stacking. So they're stuck with the usual +2/+1 everyone else gets, unless they want to go for Cha as before.
It may seem odd that a rule about encouraging diversity would improve such a scenario, but it really gets to the root of the problem this rule was fixing. Before, it was hard to look at a non-Human race and really imagine a full, complete society with soldiers and mages and priests and politicians and criminals and so on. Now, your party can play an Orc Warband composed of several completely unique builds and personalities and all be reasonably competent. Sure, maybe not every character benefits from Aggressive as the next, but you're no longer making a bad choice playing an Orc Wizard or Bard. I think that opens up room to tell a lot of cool new stories that were mechanically un-fun before.
Mostly, racial skill proficiencies are ribbons anyways, but it's nice to not be stuck with a skill you're bad at or never going to use, or just is bad to begin with. Also helpful if the original racial skill was one of the only good skills offered by your class. Some benefactors: Goliath. Leonin. Most of the Shifter subraces. Satyrs. Vedalken.
Again, these races have lost nothing from this rule. They're just more likely to be outshined now by stronger race choices that have horned in on their niche. Kenku. Minotaurs.
RAW it appears that Kobolds can't trade out their -2 str, as the new rule only allows you to trade out "increases". Meaning a kobold is still only getting a single +2 ability score, and if they use it on str, it just means they're +0 across the board, effectively.

Pack Tactics is still amazing, and Sunlight Sensivity is still terrible. If you're in an Underdark campaign, they're still good because of Pack Tactics. If you're not, at least now you can afford a casting stat so you can play a saves-based Caster so you can ignore Sunlight Sensitivity, though it means ignoring Pack Tactics, too. At least you get the law firm of Grovel, Cower, and Beg?

Orcs have been fixed in Eberron and Wildemount, so far, to no longer have a negative. Once Kobolds get their errata, they'll certainly improve as well (though Sunlight Sensitivity is still a thing).
We're really nitpicking, now, but if linguistic versatility was a factor in your race choices before, it need be no longer.
Humans are still amazing. A feat at level 1 is still build-defining. But they're the only race that gained absolutely nothing from this rule, so that's worth mentioning.

Also, yes, of course I meant vHumans. Dragonmark Humans are their own races, and Non-variant Core Humans don't exist and you can't convince me otherwise.
Racial spells have always been a powerful feature, and that hasn't changed. But, now that ability scores are flipping around, it's important to note: the ability score your racial spells are tied to doesn't change. For some races, this won't much matter outside of a Counterspell situation: That Githzerai doesn't need a good Wisdom for their racial Shield spell. But one of the only downsides to Yuan-Ti, now, is that their racial Suggestion will always have a save DC based on their Cha.

This is also true for some non-Spell racial abilities, like a Dragonborn's Dragon Breath. Indeed, that sorta got better, since they can now take a Con buff to improve their Con-based save DC.
Dragonmarked Races have two sets of bonus spells. The first batch, each named individually by race, work as per the spoiler above. But the ones granted by the Spells of the Mark feature don't have the above problem, because they're not attached to a particular stat. Instead, they're added directly to a character's class list, and cast using the appropriate stat, ensuring ability score consistency. The downside of this is what it always was, though: Other races' spells are effectively bonus spell slots; not so for Dragonmarks. These spells aren't even necessarily known or prepared, like with an Oath or Domain, merely available.

Dragonmarks also unfortunately do not benefit from this rule with regards to their +1d4 skill/tool buffs, which are not proficiencies and therefore can't be traded out.
Not only do Vedalken get to trade away their pretty lame ability scores, and pick whatever skill proficiency they want from Tireless Precision, unlike Dragonmarks as mentioned above, Vedalkens get to add their +1d4 to whatever skill they chose. This makes a Vedalken Rogue 2 the undisputed Master of one skill. Assuming a +3 ability score mod, they're rolling 1d20+7+1d4, which is an average of 20. At level 2. Sprinkle in a Gnome Cunning that works against non-Magic, too, and some waterbreathing, and you have an excellent Skill Specialist.

[zinycor]

Thanks for this. Is a very good guide.

[Amnestic]

Just to touch on Kobolds, I believe they along with non-eberron orcs are getting their ability negatives removed? I definitely saw talk of that.

[rooneg]

Just to touch on Kobolds, I believe they along with non-eberron orcs are getting their ability negatives removed? I definitely saw talk of that.
Yeah, they’ve said that is happening in Tasha’s.

[Darthnazrael]

Thanks for this. Is a very good guide.Thank you! I had a lot of thoughts I wanted to express on this, and this seemed to be the best way to organize them. Once I got started, I figured I might as well format and publish it.


Just to touch on Kobolds, I believe they along with non-eberron orcs are getting their ability negatives removed? I definitely saw talk of that.

Yeah, they’ve said that is happening in Tasha’s.
Orcs have been fixed in Eberron and Wildemount, so far, so I accepted that as errata. Once Kobolds get their errata, they'll certainly improve as well (thought Sunlight Sensitivity is still a thing).

[Sception]

Shadar-Kai probably aren't jumping to the top of any tier lists, but they do benefit significantly from Tasha's changes. Anyone who elects to play one does so to be the cool edgy shadow elf from the cool edgy shadowfell, and probably wants to couple that with a cool, edgy shadow subclass. And while their existing dex/con bonuses work alright for shadow monks, most shadow themed subclasses in 5e are for cha classes: whisper bard, shadow sorcerer, and especially hexblade, which has direct lore ties to the shadar-kai's raven queen patron. All of those classes depend so heavily on charisma that the shadar-kai, lacking a charisma bonus, just didn't mesh well at all with their most on theme options. But with Tasha's they're finally free to edge it up. Heck, even those who stick with shadow monk will appreciate the option to shift that con bonus over to wisdom.

On a similar topic of using Tasha's changes to empower on-theme choices for spooky elves, Drow Clerics of Lolth get a big boost, and can finally justify their place at the top of their subterranean social hierarchy.

Yuan-ti are now free to bring their unique brand of broken to classes outside of their previously existing int-or-cha focus. In games that allow them. Which is admittedly few. The same could be said for the flying races like Aarakocra or winged variant tieflings, but again most games don't allow them. Even in games that do, restrictions on flying in heavy armor put some limits on the flexibility that Tasha brings.

Dwarves are big winners in general. Mountain dwarves for non-warrior classes due to the awkward way that racial armor proficiencies support exactly the opposite of the archetypes that they seem intended to, a problem that extends to hobgoblins. But for warrior classes that already have those proficiencies, hill dwarves are still pretty solid, and in games where sunlight sensitivity isn't an issue grey dwarves are pretty cool. A grey dwarf conquest paladin, for instance, could be pretty neat, now that they'll have the flexibility to grab a charisma bonus.

Non-fallen Aasimar paladins get to join their fallen brethren in the top tier of paladin races with the ability to shift their secondary stat bonus to a weapon attack stat.

Dexadins and dex fighters appreciate the much easier access to thieves tool proficiency and skills like acrobatics and stealth. Monks like the easier access to thieves tools, which frees up their background choices cosiderably. None of these are huge power jumps, but they're nice quality of life improvements for non-standard scouts and trap fixers.

Dragonborn can make better use of their 'dragon fear' racial feat in point buy games.

Same for elven hexblades with elven accuracy, which used to be more the domain of half elves. Pretty niche, though.

[Darthnazrael]

You're absolutely right, and those are two great examples of how this rule also helps legitimize characters who aim to be on brand as much as it does those trying to break the mold. Some races were just BAD at things you'd think they'd be good at. Another example, idk why DnD has always thought that Centaurs (depicted in mythology as archers so peerless there's literally a zodiac sign of a centaur with a bow) should be melee attackers primarily. They're still not gonna be using Charge, but I'm glad a centaur archer can at least get their +2 dex to go along with their 40 speed. And hey, Hooves aren't a terrible OA weapon to use without dropping your bow.

Lyrandar now make just as good of Tempest Clerics as they do Storm Sorcs, too.

Drow now make not just good clerics of Lolth, as you say, but also wizards and gloomstalker Rangers (common roles for the males of their society in setting).

And either kind of Gith now makes a passable Horizon Walker ranger.

Hobgoblins are supposed to be a well-oiled war machine, but before this, were only really good for Wizards and Artificers. Now they're useful anywhere, and can even trade off any unnecessary martial weapon proficiencies for tools.

And Goblin Artificers. Alchemist and Artillerist both have Goblin written all over them, aesthetically, but now we have Goblins smart enough to do it.

Lots of flavor fun to be had with these changes, that's for sure. And that's completely ignoring the outside-the-box concepts it was designed to enable.

[Sception]

Lots of flavor fun to be had with these changes, that's for sure. And that's completely ignoring the outside-the-box concepts it was designed to enable.

Pretty much, yeah. I understand - even if I don't personally agree with - those who don't like how Tashas makes some against-the-grain race & class combinations good or even optimal. I get how someone might be frustrated that a mountain dwarf is now arguably a better wizard than a high elf, or that they're arguably better wizards than they are fighters now. I don't mind weird off type race class combos being effective, but I also don't mind multiclass dipping, or hexblades, or echo knights, or double scimitars, or quirky settings with wonky rules like Ravnica, Eberron, Spelljammer. So I'm willing to accept that I just have different sensibilities on power creep, suspension of disbelief, and so on.

But for all the mountain dwarf wizards Tasha's enables, they also enable a bunch of options that fall exactly into classical tropes and archetypes - Drow Clerics, Shadar-Kai Hexblades, Goblin Artificers, and Centaur Rangers as already mentioned. Dwarven Paladins and Forest Gnome Druids can also be added to that list.

Tasha raises the ceiling *a bit*, but it raises the floor *a lot*, which really does free players up to choose their character's race based on theme and narrative without feeling like they're playing the game with a handicap as a result.

Again, I understand those who don't like it, and a GM not using it wouldn't be a deal breaker for me - at least not in and of itself. But I think that even gamers who prefer to cleave to more well trodden fantasy archetypes have more to gain out of Tasha's custom origin options than they have to lose from it.

[Nidgit]

I would add "Any race with an INT or STR bonus" to this. This could be potentially tucked under OP's mention of good abilities but bad bonuses but I think it deserves a special shoutout because it's a bit different.

Intelligence and Strength are generally the least widely useful stats, which meant that a race with a bonus to Intelligence or Strength was usually getting pigeonholed into specific classes/subclasses. You've mentioned Goliaths and Dragonborn but I'd also want to include Half-Orcs and especially Gnomes. Gnomes in particular have fantastic abilities but stat bonuses that really shove them into int-bases casting roles, where they're admittedly quite good. None of the races I've listed have bad stats for specific roles, but now they have a lot more freedom in choosing what role to play.

[Darthnazrael]

I think the point about Int is a bit more true than Str, just because there are several Str-fighting classes, they just don't have to fight with Str. Also, the advent of the Artificer has help Int not feel so terrible.

I agree with most of what you said, but I feel like Gnomes (except Deep Gnomes, especially Abjurers) are actually kinda outshined these days. They definitely benefit from not being pigeon-holed into Int classes, but a few races (Yuan-Ti, Satyrs, Vedalken) have better versions of Gnome Cunning, the signature gnome racial feature, and then better ribbons to go with it. Rock Gnomes get nothing of real use, Forest Gnomes get Minor Illusion, and Svirfneblin get super Darkvision, a situational stealth bonus, an extra language, and access to a unique feat with spells (which, as mentioned, is awesome for abjurers).

Satyrs are the most lackluster of the comparable races, but their 'Cunning' works against all magic saves. They have 35 ft speed, 2 bonus skills, and a hands-free unarmed attack (niche, but handy on some builds).

Vedalkens, as I mentioned, have a bonus skill, stackable super Expertise in that skill, and some water breathing. Their 'Cunning' works against non-magic, too, for what that's worth.

And then there's Yuan-Ti. So much good stuff there, including, to my knowledge, the only racial damage immunity in the game. Play a Yuan-Ti. Win every drinking game because you can't be poisoned.

[jaappleton]

My favorite winners are Mark of Healing Halflings.

Make them a Wizard or Sorc and you can really do almost anything. You have access to the best of the Arcane spells while having access to healing spells, and almost immunity to rolling 1s.

[LudicSavant]

My favorite winners are Mark of Healing Halflings.

Make them a Wizard or Sorc and you can really do almost anything. You have access to the best of the Arcane spells while having access to healing spells, and almost immunity to rolling 1s.

Mark of Healing Wizards were already one of the best healers in the game, now they're even better with an Int/Con statline.

Got a build writeup for one... here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24670442&postcount=496)

[jh12]

[Winners: Single-Race Parties] It may seem odd that a rule about encouraging diversity would improve such a scenario, but it really gets to the root of the problem this rule was fixing. Before, it was hard to look at a non-Human race and really imagine a full, complete society with soldiers and mages and priests and politicians and criminals and so on. Now, your party can play an Orc Warband composed of several completely unique builds and personalities and all be reasonably competent. Sure, maybe not every character benefits from Aggressive as the next, but you're no longer making a bad choice playing an Orc Wizard or Bard. I think that opens up room to tell a lot of cool new stories that were mechanically un-fun before.

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[zinycor]

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[Dark.Revenant]

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[MrStabby]

I could see Kobolds doing quite nicely as something like a warlock.

With a Cha boost they are good enough, spell attacks still benefit from pack tactics, sunlight sensitivity is offset by being able to cast spells that need a save instead.



Winged tiefling is also generally pretty good. Strong abilities and now on the stats you want. I think that fire resistance is a bit underestimated as a race ability.


I feel there is a place for githyanki now - maybe as a pact of the blade warlock at those tables that don't like hexblades?

[togapika]

Now, your party can play an Orc Warband composed of several completely unique builds and personalities and all be reasonably competent


What I'm hearing is if I can find enough interested people we can have a goblin mafia!

[Bobthewizard]

But for all the mountain dwarf wizards Tasha's enables, they also enable a bunch of options that fall exactly into classical tropes and archetypes - Drow Clerics, Shadar-Kai Hexblades, Goblin Artificers, and Centaur Rangers as already mentioned. Dwarven Paladins and Forest Gnome Druids can also be added to that list.

Tasha raises the ceiling *a bit*, but it raises the floor *a lot*, which really does free players up to choose their character's race based on theme and narrative without feeling like they're playing the game with a handicap as a result.

Well said. This is why I like this new rule. Not for those of us on here who enjoy finding synergies, but for those who are new to the game or don't like to look into the rules as deeply. It makes a lot of character concepts more viable. Now pretty much whatever you want to play can start with a 16 in your primary stat. You don't need to match your race and class anymore so it makes it easier for new players to make the concept they want.

[J-H]

Suck it.
Would you like to edit this?

[jaappleton]

Suck it.
Would you like to edit this?

I sure hope that OP does not want to edit it.

Racism of any kind doesn’t belong in tabletop. Part of the reason for the change in character creation was that it was rooted in racism.

Long past due that both in game and out of game, racism is ended. LONG past due. Zero place for it, in the hobby or elsewhere.

[jaappleton]

We should not be getting in political or real life subjects here.
The problem with the first post was not of being wrong but of having a political part.
It was what was pointed.

Telling racists off is political? Figured that was above politics and just the right way to live.

As far as not discussing politics, its quite literally the reason the change in character creation was made. WOTC confirmed that. Its quite difficult to discuss the changes made and totally ignore the reason the changes were made.

[Hael]

Telling racists off is political? Figured that was above politics and just the right way to live.

Except that there are those of us who reject the premise, and don't like to read snark. I hate the idea from a design perspective, I hate the idea from a class balance perspective, I reject the notion that this will increase diversity, and I reject the notion that it was racist in the first place.

I could equally well write something about how people promoting this are racist themselves, by insisting on injecting their own bizarre associations into a fantasy world and then attributing it to others.

However that's not constructive, so again I think he should edit it for the sake of civility.

[EggKookoo]

Except that there are those of us who reject the premise, and don't like to read snark. I hate the idea from a design perspective, I hate the idea from a class balance perspective, I reject the notion that this will increase diversity, and I reject the notion that it was racist in the first place.

Unfortunately you're caught in a trap here. Any rejection of accusations of racism is treated as confirmation of that accusation and your position is nullified (at best).

Even me explaining this phenomenon brands me as sympathetic to racists in many peoples' minds. Not trying to put words in any specific person's mouth but I'm speaking from experience outside these forums.

You can't win.

[Zhorn]

Except that there are those of us who reject the premise, and don't like to read snark. I hate the idea from a design perspective, I hate the idea from a class balance perspective, I reject the notion that this will increase diversity, and I reject the notion that it was racist in the first place.

I could equally well write something about how people promoting this are racist themselves, by insisting on injecting their own bizarre associations into a fantasy world and then attributing it to others.

However that's not constructive, so again I think he should edit it for the sake of civility.
Still, I think this is well said.
Instance that those who disagree with the design direction and method of implementation are doing so because they are some form of deplorable is unnecessary.

[zinycor]

So, one thing that hasn't been talked about much is replacing weapon proficiencies with tool proficiencies.

Say, mamy GMs will probably say no to your elf getting +2 str or con... But would they deny you getting rid of weapon prof for tool proficiencies? Probably not.

Now elves and dwarves can actually have tons of tool proficiencies... say a dwarf who is prificient in, mining, cartography, building tools, cobbler tools.... Now he can probably just destroy a dungeon if given enough time xD.

Personally I find this to be a very fun thing that can bring new life to a character.

[MinotaurWarrior]

single race parties

I think this is the major OOG failing of the late state change they implemented. The old system promoted cosmopolitan diversity in a way the new system doesn't. Imo this is both a flavor fail (a party of a human, halfling, dwarf, and elf is cooler than an all mountain dwarf party imo) but also a political fail, as you can now create blanket racial tier lists and say X race is better than Y race without any caveats like, "Birds are better than dragonborn overall, but dragonborn do make better paladins".

Ultimately it's a baby step verging on a token effort. 5.5 or 6E will have to be substantially different.

While there are certain races like mountain dwarf that promote single race parties in the same way V.Humans did (by being generically good) I think there's also some that now promote it by opening up the opportunity for more classes to exploit certain elements. For example, the all bird party, the all superior darkvision party (Drow, svirfneblin, etc), the all small mastiff riding party (any small race), or the all goblin "we're hidden whenever it's not our turn" party.

[Daracaex]

So, one thing that hasn't been talked about much is replacing weapon proficiencies with tool proficiencies.

Say, mamy GMs will probably say no to your elf getting +2 str or con... But would they deny you getting rid of weapon prof for tool proficiencies? Probably not.

Now elves and dwarves can actually have tons of tool proficiencies... say a dwarf who is prificient in, mining, cartography, building tools, cobbler tools.... Now he can probably just destroy a dungeon if given enough time xD.

Personally I find this to be a very fun thing that can bring new life to a character.

That's honestly the best part of this for me too. Especially with elves whose long lives can have them mastering multiple professions and Dwarves who have long been associated with tropes of craftsmanship. More tool proficiencies on PCs is never a bad thing.

Might need some balancing though. Six is probably a bit much, since tool proficiencies are much more valuable than having multiple weapon proficiencies (especially since that feature was often useless to a dwarf getting martial weapon proficiency anyway). That's my overall complaint about this whole thing though. There's no attempt to have a cost or any balance to anything in it.

[x3n0n]

you can now create blanket racial tier lists and say X race is better than Y race without any caveats like, "Birds are better than dragonborn overall, but dragonborn do make better paladins".

There are still a bunch of races with interesting non-customizable characteristics, and those features will synergize differently across classes. I like that more feature combinations are reachable with advantageous ability scores.


While there are certain races like mountain dwarf that promote single race parties in the same way V.Humans did (by being generically good) I think there's also some that now promote it by opening up the opportunity for more classes to exploit certain elements. For example, the all bird party, the all superior darkvision party (Drow, svirfneblin, etc), the all small mastiff riding party (any small race), or the all goblin "we're hidden whenever it's not our turn" party.

This seems like a fun novelty, as long as it *is* a novelty. Hopefully groups figure that out.

[stoutstien]

The real issue with how races are set up is more related to how they reinforce stereotypical thinking rather than racism or any of the other big nasty words that have been getting tossed around lately.
Humans have an almost ingrained tendency to believe we can judge a book by it cover and a lot of media tend to play to this because it makes people feel good when their thoughts are reinforced. we get a little boost of happy juice whenever we can guess who the bad guy(s) is even if that belief was solely based on prejudice of one form or another.
So if we start with a natural tenancy to do this and it is constantly reinforced in books, tv, and games it gets more comfortable. Is having a bunch of fantasy races that are constantly being ranked and given fixed personality traits and abilities going to suddenly cause the collapse of society? No. But it also is extremely lazy game design to prop up a game world dichotomy using them. It was lazy when it was introduced to the genre and it is lazy every time it gets regurgitated to the next iteration.

So who are the winners and losers of this Variant rule? Mechanically it's a wash. If you don't like it then you won't use it. Social politically it's going to be a wash for Wizard as well. Deposit feedback is probably going to be equally proportioned to those who believe it is gameplay wise a bad idea and those who see it as a bad attempt at pandering.

[zinycor]

The real issue with how races are set up is more related to how they reinforce stereotypical thinking rather than racism or any of the other big nasty words that have been getting tossed around lately.
Humans have an almost ingrained tendency to believe we can judge a book by it cover and a lot of media tend to play to this because it makes people feel good when their thoughts are reinforced. we get a little boost of happy juice whenever we can guess who the bad guy(s) is even if that belief was solely based on prejudice of one form or another.
So if we start with a natural tenancy to do this and it is constantly reinforced in books, tv, and games it gets more comfortable. Is having a bunch of fantasy races that are constantly being ranked and given fixed personality traits and abilities going to suddenly cause the collapse of society? No. But it also is extremely lazy game design to prop up a game world dichotomy using them. It was lazy when it was introduced to the genre and it is lazy every time it gets regurgitated to the next iteration.

So who are the winners and losers of this Variant rule? Mechanically it's a wash. If you don't like it then you won't use it. Social politically it's going to be a wash for Wizard as well. Deposit feedback is probably going to be equally proportioned to those who believe it is gameplay wise a bad idea and those who see it as a bad attempt at pandering.

There was whole thread that got derailed and closed because of people discussing racism and politics. Please don't do that to this thread too.

[Theoboldi]

There was whole thread that got derailed and closed because of people discussing racism and politics. Please don't do that to this thread too.

I mean, talking as someone who's not going to get involved in the debate here, it would be easier to avoid that sort of discussion if the OP didn't deliberately bring it up. You can't say that you're looking at the issue from an entirely game standpoint when you bring up the real world reasons behind it and your opinion on them in the exact same post. Of course people are going to object.

[MinotaurWarrior]

There are still a bunch of races with interesting non-customizable characteristics, and those features will synergize differently across classes. I like that more feature combinations are reachable with advantageous ability scores.

Sure, there are still some features that are more or less beneficial depending on your class (e.g Tortle AC is more or less worthless on a Fighter) but removing one factor that made different races better for different classes necessarily reduces the race diversity brought on by different players with different classes being pushed by their class towards different races.

And some of the most powerful features (eg 50' fly speed), while perhaps slightly less useful on certain classes (some classes get fly speeds eventually, though most are worse), are just universally better than other races with lamer features (e.g. the oft maligned dragonborn), with this difference being much more pronounced at low levels.

[x3n0n]

Sure, there are still some features that are more or less beneficial depending on your class (e.g Tortle AC is more or less worthless on a Fighter) but removing one factor that made different races better for different classes necessarily reduces the race diversity brought on by different players with different classes being pushed by their class towards different races.

I argue that it amplifies the effect of the other factors. Since mods become a non-issue, things like "I will get poison immunity anyway, making Dwarf less attractive" get relatively more interesting.

In particular, I expect this to open up a lot of under-explored territory for race/class combinations, especially among people like me. (Not everybody, clearly.) I like to discover interesting feature combinations while staying in the same power tier as the rest of my party. In my parties, that has been roughly what you'd expect from "+3 in primary stat, everything else unoptimized". This change opens up many new possibilities for me to explore in that tier.


And some of the most powerful features (eg 50' fly speed), while perhaps slightly less useful on certain classes (some classes get fly speeds eventually, though most are worse), are just universally better than other races with lamer features (e.g. the oft maligned dragonborn), with this difference being much more pronounced at low levels.

I feel like Aaracokra in specific were already a known problem, even with fixed mods. (IIRC, they even have a "consult with your DM first" tag.)

[jaappleton]

I argue that it amplifies the effect of the other factors. Since mods become a non-issue, things like "I will get poison immunity anyway, making Dwarf less attractive" get relatively more interesting.

In particular, I expect this to open up a lot of under-explored territory for race/class combinations, especially among people like me. (Not everybody, clearly.) I like to discover interesting feature combinations while staying in the same power tier as the rest of my party. In my parties, that has been roughly what you'd expect from "+3 in primary stat, everything else unoptimized". This change opens up many new possibilities for me to explore in that tier.


I feel like Aaracokra in specific were already a known problem, even with fixed mods. (IIRC, they even have a "consult with your DM first" tag.)

You’re correct in Aaracokra, they have that caveat written with them.

To your point about Dwarves and Poison, and flying in general:

While something like a Monk does eventually get outright immunity to Poison, or something like a Dragon Sorc getting wings; it becomes a bit campaign dependent as to how useful those features are.

Monks don’t get immunity to poison until roughly level 14 (currently AFB), same with Dragon Sorcs with wings. So if you’re playing something like Curse of Strahd, which ends before those levels, it’ll likely factor in to your decision making. What would be a redundant feature is now a more appealing choice.

[elyktsorb]

The way I thought of this is that their trading one set of issues for an entirely new set of issues. But I think this set of issues comes with the most upsides tbh. Because let's be real, most people build their characters based off their class, not their race. So if you wanted to play X class and not be playing it sub-optimally, you had a handful of races to choose. Now you can pick any race and there are ones that offer more than others.

Is this a bad or a good thing? Eh. Debatable, depending on what you want out of it. Personally I like being able to pick races with cool abilities (as someone who likes doing silly multiclass things). The only reason I didn't pick those races before is because I'd be playing a class that wouldn't benefit from the stats of the race.

[stoutstien]

There was whole thread that got derailed and closed because of people discussing racism and politics. Please don't do that to this thread too.

That was meant to be more of a critique on game design philosophy than politics. They're trying to have their cake and eat it too. trying to introduce rules that allow more freedom of mechanical feature and race combination while using a majority of settings that do have strong in game reasons for the fixed options. It is a water downed forgiven realm pretending to be setting neutral.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I argue that it amplifies the effect of the other factors. Since mods become a non-issue, things like "I will get poison immunity anyway, making Dwarf less attractive" get relatively more interesting.

In particular, I expect this to open up a lot of under-explored territory for race/class combinations, especially among people like me. (Not everybody, clearly.) I like to discover interesting feature combinations while staying in the same power tier as the rest of my party. In my parties, that has been roughly what you'd expect from "+3 in primary stat, everything else unoptimized". This change opens up many new possibilities for me to explore in that tier.

From an optimization perspective it just doesn't work out like you're saying, imo. However, I think you raise the point that this does open people up to follow their idiosyncratic preferences more. I think the ASIs were very loud signals for even casual players to feel like certain combos were bad, and with those more or less removed as a factor, it will make more people feel comfortable playing the race of their fancy regardless of if it's good or not. So, for example dragonborn weren't even great paladins before, but less optimization oriented players would play dragonborn paladins. However, even casual players were usually dissuaded from playing dragonborn wizards, and even dragonborn sorcerers or barbarians, by someone pointing out the ASIs.

Assuming there's a fairly random distribution of people's favorite races, you may end up with more multiracial parties where everyone is just playing one of their favorite races.

I still think there will be less diversity in parties overall, but I think this will be a mitigating factor.



I feel like Aaracokra in specific were already a known problem, even with fixed mods. (IIRC, they even have a "consult with your DM first" tag.)

They were, but at least they were bad wizards, bards, paladins, sorcerers, and sorcerers. An all cleric / ranger party isn't great. Now they're not just arguably the most powerful race in the game, they are the most powerful race for everyone. And I do think that basically every tier one adventure is best handled by an all bird party now.

[zinycor]

So many people are talking like this will mean that every race now has whatever modifiers they want. But I don't think that will be the case in practice.

At my table for example it will be very case by case. For example I don't think dwarves would end up getting bonuses to dex unless there is some weird justification for it.

Afterall, It will be an optional rule.

[diplomancer]

So many people are talking like this will mean that every race now has whatever modifiers they want. But I don't think that will be the case in practice.

At my table for example it will be very case by case. For example I don't think dwarves would end up getting bonuses to dex unless there is some weird justification for it.

Afterall, It will be an optional rule.

How optional is a rule when not allowing means you are racist is, of course, still to be determined.

We already know it's AL legal, which means there is NO need for any "weird justification". Players may come up with one, but they don't HAVE to.

Technically, ALL races except Dwarves, Elves, Halflings and Standard Humans are optional. I wonder if THAT's racist too and if "the right to play the race of your choice" will be enshrined in the books.

[Amnestic]

Technically, ALL races except Dwarves, Elves, Halflings and Standard Humans are optional

In my setting there aren't any dwarves, elves or halflings...

[zinycor]

How optional is a rule when not allowing means you are racist is, of course, still to be determined.

We already know it's AL legal, which means there is NO need for any "weird justification". Players may come up with one, but they don't HAVE to.

Technically, ALL races except Dwarves, Elves, Halflings and Standard Humans are optional. I wonder if THAT's racist too and if "the right to play the race of your choice" will be enshrined in the books.

Would people read it that way? I certainly hope they don't.

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

How optional is a rule when not allowing means you are racist is, of course, still to be determined.

If someone added gender-based ASI's in their game like first edition had, I would find that distasteful. I find race-based ASI's distasteful for similar reasons.

[Kane0]

Woah. I never anticipated swapping around stat bonuses to generate so much discourse.

[EggKookoo]

Woah. I never anticipated swapping around stat bonuses to generate so much discourse.

Well, it's more complicated than that...

[Darthnazrael]

If mods express to me that I need to modify my original post, I will respect their rules and do so, because this is their platform.

As for the matter itself, if one finds oneself commenting on a dnd thread purely to come to the defense of racists, I encourage taking a look inward.

[zinycor]

Well, it's more complicated than that...

In my opinion it isn't. People are acting as if it were.

[RossN]

Woah. I never anticipated swapping around stat bonuses to generate so much discourse.

A lot of it stems from the Diversity & Dragons (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd) statement back in June.

I honestly think that if swapping bonuses and other race elements hadn't been mentioned in that particular statement there wouldn't be nearly as much heat over it now. As it was "Customizing Your Origin" became linked with things like Orc and Drow and free will and that the Vistani are Romani stereotypes. For obvious reasons there is a lot of sensitivity there.

For the record I strongly approve of everything else in that statement but I don't agree with removing attribute bonuses from the different races since I think it is both mechanically unsound and undermines them as distinctive fictional species in their own right.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread closed permanently.