Deific Simulacrum

[Raishoiken]

So uhh. Any reason you couldnt conjure up a simulacrum of a deity? Outside of yknow.. Deific intervention/caster level limitations

[icefractal]

You'd get the base creature (a high level outsider generally), but I don't think it would have any divine ranks; they're not a thing a normal spell could create.

[Bohandas]

Hmm. As a shadow spell, it presumably would be stuck on the material plane and/or plane of shadow and thus wouldn;t be able to exercise the full powers a deity would have on the outer planes.

Edit:
Also, it's reasonable that it might just produce an aspect

[Doctor Despair]

Iirc Ice Assassin should work

[Raishoiken]

You'd get the base creature (a high level outsider generally), but I don't think it would have any divine ranks; they're not a thing a normal spell could create.

is there anything concrete that says you cant replicate a divine rank through magic? i know we can't be maksin no artifacts but deities are apparently free game


Hmm. As a shadow spell, it presumably would be stuck on the material plane and/or plane of shadow and thus wouldn;t be able to exercise the full powers a deity would have on the outer planes.

Edit:
Also, it's reasonable that it might just produce an aspect

reasonably, a dm would prolly just say no lol. Also, i'm not entirely sure why it couldnt planar travel? it maybe couldn't exercise the powers deities have over their domains


Iirc Ice Assassin should work

I'm confident it does 100%, which is what makes me feel like this probably does as well

[sreservoir]

is there anything concrete that says you cant replicate a divine rank through magic? i know we can't be maksin no artifacts but deities are apparently free game

Simulacrum spells out what the simulacrum gets, and the divine ranks aren't part of it:


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

[Raishoiken]

Simulacrum spells out what the simulacrum gets, and the divine ranks aren't part of it:

oh bet, so no special attacks or qualities from creatures without class levels? i would assume things like that, along with divine ranks/abilities falls under special abilities, no? or is there an important distinguishing factor im missing?



edit: page 180 of the ph1 has natural abilities falling under "special abilities". divine rank should fall under this category

[icefractal]

I don't think Ice Assassin would either, FWIW.
And Divine Ranks would be harder to create/replicate than artifacts, if anything.

[Doctor Despair]

I don't think Ice Assassin would either, FWIW.
And Divine Ranks would be harder to create/replicate than artifacts, if anything.



An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature.

The duplicate is formed entirely out of ice, but once the spell is in effect, it appears as an exact duplicate to all but its source, who always sees the ice assassin as an animated ice statue of himself.

The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original.

Eh, there's a much stronger argument for Ice Assassin to work, I'd think.

[Bohandas]

Also, i'm not entirely sure why it couldnt planar travel?

IIRC spells with the [shadow] descriptor only function on the plane of shadow and planes adjecent to the plane of shadow (of which I think the material plane (and possibly the ethereal) is the only official one)

[Raishoiken]

I don't think Ice Assassin would either, FWIW.
And Divine Ranks would be harder to create/replicate than artifacts, if anything.

Facts, as far as rai is concerned. Explicitly, though, is a different story it seems



Eh, there's a much stronger argument for Ice Assassin to work, I'd think.

ice assassin's wording is definitely cleaner for it, with the "near perfect duplicate" and granted "abilities". Would it not be saef to say though that since simulacrum's wording is nearly identical (illusory duplicate instead of near perfect, granted all special abilities instead of all abilities) that it would have a fair shot?


IIRC spells with the [shadow] descriptor only function on the plane of shadow and planes adjecent to the plane of shadow (of which I think the material plane (and possibly the ethereal) is the only official one)

That would make sense, i'll have to look into that. Would make Shadowcraft Mages a little less terrifying

[icefractal]

The thing is - is it an ability of the creature, or is it a title that comes with powers? If you make a Simulacrum of a king, and people know it's a fake copy, it doesn't become the king. It can't order soldiers around or make laws. It could do those things by successfully impersonating the king, but it doesn't gain 50% rulership of the kingdom inherently.

I see divine ranks the same way, except they're bestowed by "the cosmos" which is pretty hard to fool. And if you did successfully fool it, that would mean the original god is now de-powered or is sharing power with the copy - there doesn't become two kingdoms because you copied the king.

[CIDE]

I don't think Ice Assassin would either, FWIW.
And Divine Ranks would be harder to create/replicate than artifacts, if anything.

RAW, I think, is very clear on the subject. Ice Assassin is a perfect duplication. But, the material component is harder to deal with and I promise you that eschew materials isn't going to cover this one. RAI not so much.

[Raishoiken]

The thing is - is it an ability of the creature, or is it a title that comes with powers? If you make a Simulacrum of a king, and people know it's a fake copy, it doesn't become the king. It can't order soldiers around or make laws. It could do those things by successfully impersonating the king, but it doesn't gain 50% rulership of the kingdom inherently.

I see divine ranks the same way, except they're bestowed by "the cosmos" which is pretty hard to fool. And if you did successfully fool it, that would mean the original god is now de-powered or is sharing power with the copy - there doesn't become two kingdoms because you copied the king.

I totally understand where your coming from, in actual play it would depend on how the dm decided divinity worked.

As far as the fluff would be concerned, it isn't actually creating a divine rank or deity, just the illusion of one that happens to have a bit of quasi-realness.

Concerning whether or not divine ranks themselves are "abilities": natural abilities tend to be all over a creatures sheet; natural attacks, movement speeds, natural armor bonuses, immunities, etc, which is seemingly where divine ranks slot in

[icefractal]

True, but so is equipment and often the effects of permanent buffs. Ice Assassin / Simulacrum doesn't copy those.

[Bohandas]

I still think it should create an aspect of the god. An aspect IS the deity in question without actually being The Deity In Question.

Like, an aspect is technically the god, but not in a way that would be impressive to someone high enough level to cast simulacrum

[Feantar]

I see no RAW reason it wouldn't work. Keep in mind though that the deity would know you were going to do this before you attempted it (as it'll always fall under their foreknowledge due to their domains). So, unless the setting is really crazy, I am assuming that any deities of magic would make sure it doesn't work... Or you die before you think of it. Both might apply:P But yes, sans deific intervention, I think it works.

That being said, you need to make sure that the deity was a deity when it had half it's HD. So better avoid mortals who turned divine and go for primordial deities.

[Biggus]

is there anything concrete that says you cant replicate a divine rank through magic? i know we can't be maksin no artifacts but deities are apparently free game


Craft Artifact is a Salient Divine Ability, available to deities of DvR one upwards. If you could make deities with functioning SDAs, you could create artifacts.

Creatures with DvR 0 can't craft artifacts though, so possibly spells could create a duplicate of that.

[Quertus]

Are there any examples of children of two deities - ie, those of the same *race* as your Simulacrum - who aren't deities? My guess is, it comes with the territory.

[Bohandas]

I see no RAW reason it wouldn't work. Keep in mind though that the deity would know you were going to do this before you attempted it (as it'll always fall under their foreknowledge due to their domains). So, unless the setting is really crazy, I am assuming that any deities of magic would make sure it doesn't work... Or you die before you think of it. Both might apply:P But yes, sans deific intervention, I think it works.


And if it did work it might soft crash the world like when Karsus tried to become Mystra




That being said, you need to make sure that the deity was a deity when it had half it's HD. So better avoid mortals who turned divine and go for primordial deities.

I don;t think it duplicates the creature specifically as it was in the past (although if it does the specific time is probably whenever the tissue sample was taken), just that the duplicate has lower HD and abilities; Like if it had been energy drained. There are many monsters that just simply have that many HD, and simulacrum doesn;t have any special rules for them. Deities in particular seem to inherently have 60-80 hd; according to the Epic Level Handbook, even a deity that's stillborn has 66 HD (ELH pg.159-160).

[ShurikVch]

An ice assassin spell creates a living, breathing creature that is a near-perfect duplicate of an existing creature.

The duplicate is formed entirely out of ice, but once the spell is in effect, it appears as an exact duplicate to all but its source, who always sees the ice assassin as an animated ice statue of himself.

The ice assassin possesses all the skills, abilities, and memories possessed by the original, but its personality is warped and twisted by an all-consuming need to slay the original. Eh, there's a much stronger argument for Ice Assassin to work, I'd think.
Note: by D&D terms, Ability (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ability&alpha=) is:

One of the six basic character qualities: Strength (Str), Dexterity (Dex), Constitution (Con), Intelligence (Int), Wisdom (Wis), and Charisma (Cha).
Source: PHB
Thus, Ice Assassin - unlike the Simulacrum - doesn't includes the "special abilities" clause

[Raishoiken]

Note: by D&D terms, Ability (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ability&alpha=) is:

Thus, Ice Assassin - unlike the Simulacrum - doesn't includes the "special abilities" clause

*Surprised pikachu face*

[Crichton]

Note: by D&D terms, Ability (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_ability&alpha=) is:

Thus, Ice Assassin - unlike the Simulacrum - doesn't includes the "special abilities" clause

While at first glance that seems like a nice clear-cut denial of IA working, a cursory search of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=abilities) shows that WotC is very inconsistent in their use of the word 'abilities' and there's no way we can take it to only ever refer to the 6 'stats' in the rules.


Excluding any results where the word 'abilities' is part of another rules-defined term ('special abilities' or 'spell-like abilities' etc), even just the first few results show the word is often used in other senses quite frequently:



Creating Magic Items - "Multiple similar abilities"
Dragon, True - "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power..."
Angel - "The following abilities are always active..."
Duergar, Psionic - "These abilities are as the power (or spell) manifested by..."
Druid - "...the creature gains abilities as if the ..."
Intelligent Items - "Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers..."
Bard - "While these abilities fall under the category of..."



Given how frequently the word 'abilities' is used in the rules in a general sense to refer to all manner of powers, capabilities, and talents, I don't think we have any case at all for using that as the definitive basis for denying the possibility that IA includes special abilities, or even salient divine abilities or divine ranks, etc. There may be other text in the rules to deny those, but not the term 'abilities'

[Raishoiken]

I see no RAW reason it wouldn't work. Keep in mind though that the deity would know you were going to do this before you attempted it (as it'll always fall under their foreknowledge due to their domains). So, unless the setting is really crazy, I am assuming that any deities of magic would make sure it doesn't work... Or you die before you think of it. Both might apply:P But yes, sans deific intervention, I think it works.

That being said, you need to make sure that the deity was a deity when it had half it's HD. So better avoid mortals who turned divine and go for primordial deities.

While not all deities see into the future, boccob can, and he's likely to not be very happy about it

[Jowgen]

My personal hot take: divine ranks are not part of a creature, but a magical effect resultant from their Divine Spark, which whether one classes it as an item, Su effect, or whatever, is not part of the set-up that you can replicate.

Although this does not apply to quasi-deities, such as the Einherjar template creatures from the Deities and Demigods revision update. Divine Rank 0 is just the prerequesite ability to benefit from the Divine Spark item/effect.

But that's just how I reconcile Simulcarum/Ice Assassin being a thing that's allowed to exist.

[Crichton]

While not all deities see into the future, boccob can, and he's likely to not be very happy about it

All deities of Divine Rank 1 or more CAN see into the future and the past, by RAW, though, in anything relating to their portfolio. Whether they're paying attention to the events they sense is up to the DM. Relevant text here: Portfolio Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense)

[Doctor Despair]

All deities of Divine Rank 1 or more CAN see into the future and the past, by RAW, though, in anything relating to their portfolio. Whether they're paying attention to the events they sense is up to the DM. Relevant text here: Portfolio Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense)

Notably, as I briefly mention in my recent thread here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?618839-How-Far-Can-We-Optimize-Bardic-Music&p=24708179#post24708179), "if you can make your career as an [adventurer] crucial to the future moves of dragons in the Xorvintaal game (namely Chorranathau or Morlicantha), deities won't even be warned about your plans via their portfolio sense."

For reference, they have this ability:


Divination Immunity (Ex) Nobody can learn about
Chorranathau’s future xorvintaal moves through
divination spells and similar effects. Such effects can still
reveal other information about him.

Portfolio sense is arguably a "similar effect" to divination, as divination is, in many ways, just mimicing portfolio sense.

[Bohandas]

While at first glance that seems like a nice clear-cut denial of IA working, a cursory search of the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=abilities) shows that WotC is very inconsistent in their use of the word 'abilities' and there's no way we can take it to only ever refer to the 6 'stats' in the rules.


Excluding any results where the word 'abilities' is part of another rules-defined term ('special abilities' or 'spell-like abilities' etc), even just the first few results show the word is often used in other senses quite frequently:



Creating Magic Items - "Multiple similar abilities"
Dragon, True - "All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power..."
Angel - "The following abilities are always active..."
Duergar, Psionic - "These abilities are as the power (or spell) manifested by..."
Druid - "...the creature gains abilities as if the ..."
Intelligent Items - "Intelligent items have extra abilities and sometimes extraordinary powers..."
Bard - "While these abilities fall under the category of..."


The dragon one doesn't work for this argument as their ability scores do go up as they age

[Crichton]

The dragon one doesn't work for this argument as their ability scores do go up as they age

??? Never said anything about anyone not getting ability score increases as they gain HD or levels.


The point was that the word 'abilities' in all those examples (and many more; i got tired of typing them), is used to refer to things other than ability scores/stats.


The usage in the dragon entry is the same. It doesn't say they gain 'increased' abilities, it says they gain 'more' abilities.

[Raishoiken]

All deities of Divine Rank 1 or more CAN see into the future and the past, by RAW, though, in anything relating to their portfolio. Whether they're paying attention to the events they sense is up to the DM. Relevant text here: Portfolio Sense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#portfolioSense)

Nah homie, future sense starts at intermediate, past sense (which i guess is only really releva t to a newborn deity) starts at greater

[Crichton]

Nah homie, future sense starts at intermediate, past sense (which i guess is only really releva t to a newborn deity) starts at greater

Good catch. And yeah, you're right about the past sense thing. Always did find that a bit weird.