build optimization vs play optimization

[da newt]

I had a thought (stop the presses): There are tons of good build guides all over the interweb that provide optimization advice, but there are few play guides that do a good job of showing how to get the most out of any build. It seems to me that it's pretty easy / simple to create a use this race, these stats and these feats, but that really only provides a fraction of the optimization. (I estimate it's around 33% build + 67% play = total effectiveness).

Where can I find the 'how to best play X class' guides that really provide the information needed to best take advantage of the tools a strong build provides? In my time playing, I've come across very few folks who can play at an above average strategy / tactical level.

Certainly there are some guides that include a few 'combo moves' but even those tend to leave out the why and how those combos work, and when you should chose X over Y etc.

How do I learn how to play more effectively?

[Asisreo1]

I had a thought (stop the presses): There are tons of good build guides all over the interweb that provide optimization advice, but there are few play guides that do a good job of showing how to get the most out of any build. It seems to me that it's pretty easy / simple to create a use this race, these stats and these feats, but that really only provides a fraction of the optimization. (I estimate it's around 33% build + 67% play = total effectiveness).

Where can I find the 'how to best play X class' guides that really provide the information needed to best take advantage of the tools a strong build provides? In my time playing, I've come across very few folks who can play at an above average strategy / tactical level.

Certainly there are some guides that include a few 'combo moves' but even those tend to leave out the why and how those combos work, and when you should chose X over Y etc.

How do I learn how to play more effectively?
I've always wanted to make a "How to play" guide for classes that optimizes the play experience. I haven't had the time but I think I've played enough of the characters to have the general gist of it.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think most build guides indirectly touch on this when discussing the justification for various options. The problem with a standalone "play" guide is that what you need to do is optimize your choices within a decision space constrained by your build and the encounters created by the DM. So you either need to narrow it down (e.g. "How to play a svirfneblin AT in LMoP") or be incredibly exhaustive.

[OldTrees1]

Well there are plenty of guides for the majority of the play experience. Just not as many for the tactical side.

For the tactical side, since RPGs have such broad fields of play, it is ideal to develop a broad rather than a narrow tactical skill.

To develop a broad tactical skill:
1) Play a variety of games. You might already be doing that. Then you can take what you learned from each game and apply them to each other. Lessons from Chess apply to MtG, vice versa, and both apply to D&D tactics.
2) Read some of the literature. The Art of War is actually a good read once you have some foundations in how to apply lessons across games. Likewise MtG has an excessive number of articles about tactics that can be abstracted. Oh and read Erfworld!
3) Play D&D. Some of the tactical knowledge comes from seeing how things play out.

As an example: When you enter an encounter, what is your objective? Often it is "to make the enemy unable or unwilling to block your progress" rather than to kill the enemies. This can lead to realizing stunning an enemy removed them from the equation even if they are still alive, or realize that the encounter is over when the enemies realize they can't hinder you further.

[stoutstien]

Depends on how you value different parts of game play. Optimized play for the player looking to use their knowledge of game mechanics to overcome challenges as efficiently as possible is going to look very different from the player who is always looking for the most innovative or creative solutions. For some, optimization for damage/combat resolution is the focus and the next player might see combat as the result of failure for avoiding it in the first place so making an attack roll will never be optimistic.

It is an interesting premise for a discussion. Is it optimized character in the hands of a fairly novice player going to outperform a suboptimal character played by someone with extensive system mastery?

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Yes, like Minotaur pointed out, it is very difficult to create guides on how to play (beyond just the basics) because of how much variety there is in settings, DMs, encounters, etc.

That kind of optimization very much depends on the player learning and adapting to a given situation.

Build guides often attempt to provide some guidance on playing their build, by rating spell choices, explaining those choices, giving instruction on the relevant combos, analyzing feat/race choices, and providing options for customization, among other things. That is generally as far as they can go without dedicating a huge amount of time/words to the matter.

I also believe the lack of content within 5e exacerbates this issue further, as it has very much led to a "meta" where everyone somewhat understands what feats are ass, what feats are good, what subclasses are decent, what races to pick for which build. There is a lot less room for choice and discussion since there isn't very much need to elaborate upon something assumed to be understood.

[Lunali]

One thing to keep in mind, a lot of the reason why build optimization sees so much discussion is that it can actually be discussed out of context. A play guide would have to account for your party situation, the encounters you're likely to face, and whether you actually want to do the optimal thing most of the time.

[Daphne]

One thing most guides miss is the tiers of play, some features should be rated differently depending on your level (and what levels you'll probably achieve).

[Unoriginal]

I had a thought (stop the presses): There are tons of good build guides all over the interweb that provide optimization advice, but there are few play guides that do a good job of showing how to get the most out of any build. It seems to me that it's pretty easy / simple to create a use this race, these stats and these feats, but that really only provides a fraction of the optimization. (I estimate it's around 33% build + 67% play = total effectiveness).

Where can I find the 'how to best play X class' guides that really provide the information needed to best take advantage of the tools a strong build provides? In my time playing, I've come across very few folks who can play at an above average strategy / tactical level.

Certainly there are some guides that include a few 'combo moves' but even those tend to leave out the why and how those combos work, and when you should chose X over Y etc.

How do I learn how to play more effectively?



The actual playing of D&D is simply too big to be quantified. A build is only a fraction of a character, a character only a fraction of a group, and a group only a tiny, tiny bit of the world. No guide can account for all the ways how PCs, NPCs and environment interact, and that's before going into everything a Dm can decide.

Build guides are easier, because you work with finite building materials. And mathematic all you can calculate what statisticaly they can be capable of. But no guide is going to take into account the castle guards being drunk, or how the battlefield might be a desert village, or that the Cleric is mad at the Barbarian for having convinced the group giving their diamonds to the Copper Dragon was the right choice, or how the Dark Emperor is really a mind-controlled puppet ruler and instead of fighting a Blackguard, the actual boss is an Elder Brain.

[Cheesegear]

there are few play guides that do a good job of showing how to get the most out of any build.
[...]
Where can I find the 'how to best play X class' guides that really provide the information needed to best take advantage of the tools a strong build provides?
[...]
How do I learn how to play more effectively?

I've found that
1. Learning to play comes from learning by playing.
2. Read your Player's Handbook!

In regards to the second point, if you've ever looked at your DM, shocked, and said "Wait, I can do - or could have done - that!?" Then you probably haven't read what the Player's Handbook actually lets you do. If you have read it, and you're still asking the question...Read it again. It's particularly important to know when to Grapple/Shove, Help and Dodge, and those three are the ones I can of off the top of my head.
Another one to remember is how Darkvision only gives creatures Dim Light for 60 ft. After that 60 ft., they are Blinded. Darkvision is not 'vision in the dark'. Do you know what Dim Light actually does? There are loads of practical things you can do with that knowledge.

A major issue I've found with 'getting good' is that it's simply not that simple. An encounter is typically made up of three things:
a) The hostiles,
b) the environment, and
c) Initiative.

The Hostiles
Fighting 10 Goblins, is not the same as fighting one Ogre.
Hell, fighting 10 Goblins, isn't even the same as fighting 10 Kobolds.
There's no way a Guide on the internet can possibly cover every creature, in every combination, in D&D. There's even some incredibly brutal hostile combos (e.g; Shambling Mound + Will-o'-Wisps), that are way different to fighting each, individual creature. There's even incredible combos that can almost work like a hostile party, and it will take some clever teamwork by the party, 'cause chances are, the DM is actively trying to kill you.
(I've always thought about putting together a Guide that tells you 'tricks' that hostiles can/will do if your DM even plays them half-correctly. It's fairly common knowledge that there are lot of monsters in Tier 1 and 2 that should not be the CR that they are...One of the many reasons that Tier 1 can be brutal when the DM plays intelligently).

Point is, fighting monsters is hard. Learn by doing - not by reading.

The environment
Fighting 10 Goblins isn't the same as fighting 10 Goblins on a 10 ft-high wall.
Fighting 10 Kobolds in Dim Light (i.e; with Darkvision) is very different to fighting 10 Kobolds in sunlight.
Your DM can do anything to shake up the encounter. A massive '**** you' to any party, is covering the battlefield with Difficult Terrain.
In the real world, your DM is rarely - if ever - going to straight up 'you and him fight'. Your DM can literally do anything they want to shift a fight in their favour. Or, at least, in such a way that the party just doesn't steamroll the encounter. No-one on the internet is going to be able to read your DM's mind. Just about the only reliable information that anyone can give you is;
a) If you're a melee build, make sure you have a ranged weapon.
b) If you're a ranged build, make sure you have a melee weapon.
Beyond that, you, at the table, have to react to the scenarios that your DM places in front of you. The amount of possible scenarios are countably infinite. It'd be pointless to write a guide. Learn by doing - not by reading.

Initiative
It's cool that you can do 27 damage per swing...But you already dropped to 0, so actually it doesn't count.
Where you - and the hostiles, and your party members - go in the initiative order, changes everything.
The only reliable information a Guide will ever provide you is "If you deal damage, try and go first. If you don't go first...Uhh...Get rekt?"
You have to make a plan with your party. What your party has available to them, determines your plans for the combat. But no-one can know what the party has available to them, except for the players at your table. Learn by doing - not by reading.


Why 'Character Builds' work, is because everything about them, the player controls (except for the builds which rely on passive/bad DMs to make passive/bad rulings)
Once the player can no longer make reliable decisions (because the DM is making decisions, not the player), Guides wont help.

[Bobthewizard]

I think Treantmonk (https://treantmonk.wordpress.com) does a great job with this. His guides are build guides but he builds his characters from level 1 and discusses playstyle as he goes.

[fbelanger]

Style of play and DM preference can influence a lot the optimized play. I think it is why guide are so rare.

If you face adventuring day made of 1 or 2 fights you will adapt some play, but if the dm keep you on your toes by making the length of the day unpredictable it will change a lot your strategy.

[Unoriginal]

I think Treantmonk (https://treantmonk.wordpress.com) does a great job with this. His guides are build guides but he builds his characters from level 1 and discusses playstyle as he goes.

I've never seen anything of Treantmonk it'd call a great job. Never seen anything of his I'd call a good job either, for that matter.

He also has a strong tendency to be way too attached to some ideas to allow his guides the flexibility a "play guide" would need.

[Pex]

There are particular tactics that work.

Rogues do well by trying to be hidden before combat starts. Then attack with a bow, getting advantage and thus sneak attack regardless whom you attack, then bonus action hide so as not to be attacked in return and get advantage + sneak attack next round. Repeat.

If as a Paladin you want to cast spells use Smite only against undead, fiends, or when you roll a crit as standard operating procedure. In special cases Smite against bag of hit points monsters like giants. At some point in the campaign you'll find traveling in Fireball formation surrounding the Paladin as you explore to be more valuable than the risk it inherently implies of area attacks affecting everyone. The Paladin Auras are more important to make that saving throw, immunity to something, or other mitigating factor than suffering whatever damage a surprised Fireball or breath weapon would do. It depends on the campaign.

To conserve spell slots Cleric can cast Spiritual Weapon to attack with that then cast Sacred Flame/Toll The Dead or if you're inclined Spiritual Weapon then attack with your weapon to simulate Extra Attack. Another good tactic is to have a high AC as possible, cast Spirit Guardians, move to get enemies into it, then Dodge forever.

Warlocks who have Repelling Blast can push enemies into area effect spells like a Cleric's Spirit Guardians, a Druid's Spike Growth, or even their own Black Tentacles.

[Segev]

I think you want to look for threads that talk about "tricks" and such, because they usually showcase how to use something in creative and useful ways. Tooting my own horn, here, I think my Illusionist Tricks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks) thread is an example of "play optimization." It discusses how to use various illusion spells in conjunction with the Illusionist subclass features to better advantage.

[Asisreo1]

There are particular tactics that work.

Rogues do well by trying to be hidden before combat starts. Then attack with a bow, getting advantage and thus sneak attack regardless whom you attack, then bonus action hide so as not to be attacked in return and get advantage + sneak attack next round. Repeat.

If as a Paladin you want to cast spells use Smite only against undead, fiends, or when you roll a crit as standard operating procedure. In special cases Smite against bag of hit points monsters like giants. At some point in the campaign you'll find traveling in Fireball formation surrounding the Paladin as you explore to be more valuable than the risk it inherently implies of area attacks affecting everyone. The Paladin Auras are more important to make that saving throw, immunity to something, or other mitigating factor than suffering whatever damage a surprised Fireball or breath weapon would do. It depends on the campaign.

To conserve spell slots Cleric can cast Spiritual Weapon to attack with that then cast Sacred Flame/Toll The Dead or if you're inclined Spiritual Weapon then attack with your weapon to simulate Extra Attack. Another good tactic is to have a high AC as possible, cast Spirit Guardians, move to get enemies into it, then Dodge forever.

Warlocks who have Repelling Blast can push enemies into area effect spells like a Cleric's Spirit Guardians, a Druid's Spike Growth, or even their own Black Tentacles.
If I can't give any more advice here, the one advice I give is:

Barbarians, Paladins, and Strength Fighters need to have a longbow on them. It literally doesn't matter that your dex is -1, doing 1d10-1 with a +1 to-hit is much, much better than doing 0d0+0 with a nothing to-hit.

[Gignere]

A lot of 5e tactics is really movement LoS, and LoE. Problem I see most players when they are playing is not maximizing movement and positioning.

Especially casters nothing in 5e stops you from moving cast, move out of LoS yet I can count the number of times people besides me that does that consistently.

Also with fighting classes people also tend to run up and stand and DPR and that is it. You know I try to move even just around the enemy without provoking OAs. It can if done right change the whole dynamics of combat.

[MaxWilson]

A lot of 5e tactics is really movement LoS, and LoE. Problem I see most players when they are playing is not maximizing movement and positioning.

Especially casters nothing in 5e stops you from moving cast, move out of LoS yet I can count the number of times people besides me that does that consistently.

Also with fighting classes people also tend to run up and stand and DPR and that is it. You know I try to move even just around the enemy without provoking OAs. It can if done right change the whole dynamics of combat.

Good points. In addition, it is also important to realize when it's advantageous to take a given OA than to stand still and get hit by something else (either a full Multiattack from the same creature, or a future AoE, or attacks/effects from another creature which would otherwise be blocked by full cover or being out of range).

Dropping prone against missile attacks is another trick which is occasionally useful.

Hiding is perhaps underused, especially by squishies with weak at-will attacks (like Bards and Druids) who are concentrating on something important (like Conjure Animals/Animate Objects). Sometimes, contributing 2d8 potential cantrip damage is not as helpful as removing a squishy liability (yourself) from the equation that other PCs are solving.

There are some niche pieces of equipment like nets, ball bearings, and caltrops which are not good to specialize in, but occasionally better uses of your action than cantrips. Sometimes this even applies to weapons that you're not proficient in them, especially at low level where proficiency is only +2 and cantrips are weak.

If your DM roleplays monsters fairly, deception can be important to misleading enemies into making mistakes. This could be as elaborate as animating a bunch of skeletons and using Seeming on them and the party to make four skeletons look like adventurers (conveniently in Fireball Formation) and make the PCs look like zombies (shambling along ahead/behind the adventurers) so that an ancient dragon ambushing you wastes its breath weapon nova on the wrong target; or as simple as a wizard who always carries a longbow and greatsword

Concentration-based spells like Sleet Storm, Web, etc. can be dropped at any time, e.g. if an ally is caught in your own Web and is about to be attacked at advantage by a monster, you can drop that Web. Similarly if an enemy has been knocked prone by a Sleet Storm and your ally wants to attack them at advantage, but can't because the Sleet Storm is still blinding them, you can instantly drop the Sleet Storm and now they have advantage.

Don't get too hung up on inflicting damage. Your top priority is achieving a crushing tactical advantage, and killing isn't necessarily the fastest way to do that. For example, DMG Disarm can be amazing against tool-using enemies like Githyankis, Shadar-Kai, Giants, and some fiends. If you're a Fighter with an Action Surge to burn, sure, you could Action Surge four attacks against a Fire Giant and do 20-40 HP of damage, but what if you instead Action Surged to Disarm the giant (using any left-over attacks to do damage), and then picked up its greatsword and ran off with it (accepting an OA), dropping prone at the end of your movement to impose disadvantage on boulder attacks? This is even more true for spellcasters--generally your first priority in a big fight should be to divide and conquer, using tools like Hypnotic Pattern and Slow/Confusion/Fear to let the party focus on one enemy at a time.

========================================


I think you want to look for threads that talk about "tricks" and such, because they usually showcase how to use something in creative and useful ways. Tooting my own horn, here, I think my Illusionist Tricks (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?477658-Illusionist-Tricks) thread is an example of "play optimization." It discusses how to use various illusion spells in conjunction with the Illusionist subclass features to better advantage.

Hmmm, good points. I've found myself labelling such threads "tricks" too. E.g. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?589071-Diplomancer-s-Little-Book-of-Tricks is a "tricks" thread which outlines techniques for Enchanter/Arcane Tricksters, but some of them are applicable to Artificer/Wizards and Moon Druids as well.

[LudicSavant]

Back before the servers got taken offline, I was a competitive esports player for Atlas Reactor (which is kind of like... multiplayer XCOM). Took home second place in world finals.

There's something that one of my fellow competitive players wrote up (incidentally, a guy who was on the first place team) that I think is applicable to all turn-based strategy games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw8kNLjLdhc&list=PLnzrJdL4p4-w1tBluhXuK-XnTZpbBg5i4

[LudicSavant]

Some very important things to work on to become a stronger tactical player:

- Think in terms of the decision trees you create for your enemies (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24109520&postcount=49). This is an important skill for all characters, but is especially important for being good at playing tanks.

- Always build with your allies in mind. Discuss teamwork strategies with them. Build camaraderie and team spirit. Understand each others' options and capabilities. Work together as a well-oiled machine.

- Use cover at every opportunity. You wouldn't have your ranged characters sitting out in the open in XCOM, would you? So why are you doing it in D&D!? You should be utilizing the battlefield whenever you can. And manipulating the battlefield to make it more usable for you, too. Heck, in 5e even creatures give cover to other creatures. Use that.

- Vision, line of effect, and 'the information war.' This plays a powerful role in high-skilled play and is almost completely overlooked by many players.

- Think in terms of contingencies. Not "I probably won't fail, I have a 90% chance of success" but "when I fail 10% of the time, I will do X." You should have a whole if/then tree in mind for each foreseeable outcome.

- Think in terms of risk management over iterative probability rather than any single outcome. Something that works 90% of the time, but causes a TPK 10% of the time, is still a terrible strategy. Think about "IP proofing" and similar concepts.

- Use rituals as much as you can. Remember that you can use them while moving.

- Action economy is extraordinarily important. It is one of the most important variables to consider in anything.

- Remember that a defense is only as strong as its weakest link. Don't be Achilles. You could have 1,000 hit points and still get taken down by a single failed mental save, for example.

- Learn what kinds of things counter what kinds of things. For example, many people think that large mook swarms are incredibly deadly... but a solid AC and Disadvantage to be hit can cut their damage output from "kill the Reckless Barbarian in one round" to "almost no damage at all."

- Start accounting for more variables when analyzing your decisions. For example, if you're just treating GWM as "+10 damage" and not accounting for accuracy or the crit effect or the opportunity cost of taking a different feat instead, you're going to get extremely misleading results.

[MaxWilson]

- Use rituals as much as you can. Remember that you can use them while moving.

If your DM lets this fly (and by RAW there's no reason not to, although that's not necessarily a good thing), remember that this isn't limited to rituals. You can theoretically spend 9 rounds casting Magic Circle (anti-fiend/elemental protection) or Symbol (anti-everything crowd control, excellent especially with Careful Spell metamagic on a Divine Soul), then on the 10th round either kick down the door or have a buddy Dimension Door/Teleport you on top of the target, and then your spell goes off.

In other words, a lot of powerful spells that aren't normally usable during combat suddenly become excellent first-round openers. Other options requiring 99 rounds of pre-casting instead of 9 include Druid's Grove (effectively Greater Invisibility for the whole party plus some extra Spike Growth and a few Entangles, unusually hard to dispel) and Mordenkainen's Sanctum (teleport block, optional sound/vision block). These are spells that are good enough to be candidates for Wish during combat, only here you're doing it with a regular 6th or 4th level spell slot. Some of them like Druid's Grove last long enough to not only help you win the initial scry-and-die combat, but also to foil any counterattacks and give you a secure fallback position from which to rest or conduct recon, so that you have the strategic initiative against an active enemy. Against a passive enemy like a typical dungeon crawl, it doesn't matter of course--the monsters already aren't going to come boiling out of their rooms to attack you all at once, they'll just wait quietly in their rooms for you to come kill them. But even in those scenarios it still gives you a secure place to rest/re-buff/give Inspiring Leader speeches/generate Unseen Servants and Phantom Steeds/wait while your familiar or Arcane Eye scouts around, after the initial combat is over.

Naturally this relies on you having good recon/intel about what is behind that door you're about to kick down, or the room you are about to teleport into.


(A) - Remember that a defense is only as strong as its weakest link. Don't be Achilles. You could have 1,000 hit points and still get taken down by a single failed mental save, for example.

- Learn what kinds of things counter what kinds of things. For example, many people think that large mook swarms are incredibly deadly... but a solid AC and Disadvantage to be hit can cut their damage output from (B) "kill the Reckless Barbarian in one round" to "almost no damage at all."

(A) is applicable on a party-wide level too. Defense is generally cheaper than offense in 5E (e.g. there are no spells that let a Fighter triple their DPR, but there are spells like Blur and Polymorph which can triple your longevity), but it's offset by the fact that defense takes more coordination between players. If the party doesn't cooperate well, then boosting your defense with Blur or the Mobile feat may be a waste of resources--the monsters can just attack somebody else. In this scenario, boosting your offense by even a small amount (adding a Spiritual Weapon to the fray for an extra d8+5 (9) attack per round) may be a better strategy than boosting your personal defense by a large amount. That is, if they're already going to be (B) killing the Reckless Barbarian with advantage on their attacks, etc., boosting your own personal defense and giving them disadvantage via Greater Invisibility is a waste of an action and a spell slot--buff the Barbarian instead!

Incidentally, partial/total cover is great against mook swarms. You may be fighting 30 goblins, but if you can find some total cover, you don't always have to fight all 30 at once! Even if they have readied attacks, you only need to poke your head out just far enough to see just enough goblins for you to attack back.

[Pex]

If I can't give any more advice here, the one advice I give is:

Barbarians, Paladins, and Strength Fighters need to have a longbow on them. It literally doesn't matter that your dex is -1, doing 1d10-1 with a +1 to-hit is much, much better than doing 0d0+0 with a nothing to-hit.

Yes.

I learned that the hard way.

[cutlery]

Think that what you're talking about is more of a set of guidelines for tactical play - what specific choices will vary based on your build, your party, the encounter, how many resources you have left, and a guess about how hard to spend those resources.

And that's all before considering what square to stand in and which enemies to focus fire on; some of those choices will be made for you (or removed from the list of possibles) as other players and monsters take their turns before you in the initiative order.


If I can't give any more advice here, the one advice I give is:

Barbarians, Paladins, and Strength Fighters need to have a longbow on them. It literally doesn't matter that your dex is -1, doing 1d10-1 with a +1 to-hit is much, much better than doing 0d0+0 with a nothing to-hit.

I'd call that build advice rather than tactical advice; you can also get away with cantrips for some builds (e.g. fire bolt at 2d10+0 with +4 to hit at level 5 instead of two shots at 1d8-1 at +2 to hit).

[MaxWilson]

I'd call that build advice rather than tactical advice; you can also get away with cantrips for some builds (e.g. fire bolt at 2d10+0 with +4 to hit at level 5 instead of two shots at 1d8-1 at +2 to hit).

I'd call that tactical advice. The point being made is that even if you spend zero resources on specializing in ranged combat, you should still buy a longbow during play. Even if you're not proficient. (Although, early on a heavy crossbow is better.)

Also, if you can, carry a few flasks of oil, a couple bags of caltrops, a healer's kit, some ball bearings, a 100' coil of rope, a bullseye lamp, and a 10' pole, and some food that you can give to monsters so they don't have to eat you. And buy a horse, and maybe a couple of attack mastiffs.

[Asmotherion]

Might sound as a no-brainer, but start using cover and consealment, especially if you're not built for tanking. Get hit less, wile providing whatever you do for the party can make you a much more valuable player.

If you're a tank, learn to possition yourself to be the "ideal target" for enemies. Draw their fire, by taunting, being in front (providing cover) of an ideal target (your party's primary caster for example).

Keep track of your abilities; Don't forget to activate an appropriate one when nessesary.

5e is designed in such a way that good play is intuitive for most classes. As long as you don't forget the rules at least.


I'd call that tactical advice. The point being made is that even if you spend zero resources on specializing in ranged combat, you should still buy a longbow during play. Even if you're not proficient. (Although, early on a heavy crossbow is better.)

Also, if you can, carry a few flasks of oil, a couple bags of caltrops, a healer's kit, some ball bearings, a 100' coil of rope, a bullseye lamp, and a 10' pole, and some food that you can give to monsters so they don't have to eat you. And buy a horse, and maybe a couple of attack mastiffs.

I'm more of a cantrip and/or crossbow kind of guy. Usually, I'll either have a mental stat high enough to be worth getting a cantrip, or a Dexterity high enough to use my crossbow with. Even more usually, both.

Also, I think Crossbows look cooler than Longbows tbh, and I can't RP a guy in a Fantasy setting that can't at least fire a mini-fireball or other magical energy through his hands XD.

[cutlery]

I'd call that tactical advice. The point being made is that even if you spend zero resources on specializing in ranged combat, you should still buy a longbow during play. Even if you're not proficient. (Although, early on a heavy crossbow is better.)

Also, if you can, carry a few flasks of oil, a couple bags of caltrops, a healer's kit, some ball bearings, a 100' coil of rope, a bullseye lamp, and a 10' pole, and some food that you can give to monsters so they don't have to eat you. And buy a horse, and maybe a couple of attack mastiffs.

Equipage is build. It provides in combat options you wouldn’t otherwise have, which is why it is a good idea.

The tactical decision is when to stow or drop your sword and ready your bow. If you chose not to carry one and one isn’t available once initiative gets rolled, you are out of luck.

It is an easier build choice to fix than not having selected a damage cantrip, but it is still a build decision that opens or closes tactical options.

[Edea]

I like using my M:tG set editor to generate cards with my character's abilities written on them (along with alluding, very obvious pictures), then print them out on regular paper, cut them out, and stick them into some of my empty card sleeves.

I don't need them very often once I'm used to my character, but for the first 10-20 sessions or so of a game they really help with preventing table delays and scrambling to look up exactly what the hell my spells/features do. There's also something instinctive about thumbing through your 'deck' that puts you into a tactical mindset, at least IME.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Honestly I find that even build guides are failures (or at least underwhelming) because the necessity of making large assumptions about the game that will be played tend to dictate the result. They can't consider party makeup (very well, anyway) nor DM design decisions, nor styles of campaigns, nor...

Something as simple as changing the average makeup of fights from one or two big monsters to a hoard of little guys (who are much more challenging in reality than numerically more potent, but fewer foes IMX) makes a lot of "killer" builds drop way down in effectiveness. As does varying the number of fights per day. Or throwing in things that aren't fights, or aren't fights in big open spaces (looking at you, mounted builds).

The build space is huge, once you consider all the variables. Sure. There are things you can do in general to build better and play better. But most guides with their color coding and limited viewpoint won't really help with any of that. And even more, it's easy to read a guide (or a textbook) and think you know what you're doing. The number of "optimized characters" whose players couldn't use them effectively, and the number of "suboptimal characters" whose players wielded them like scalpels in my experience is rather larger than the reverse. Player >>>>> character >>>>>>>>>>>>>> build IMX.

But more on topic, I find that having ready-reference for abilities and spells makes a huge difference. Spell cards are a lifesaver, especially for the wizards, druids, and clerics out there. Cards for druids with wildshapes or for summoners with their favored pets are also really nice to have. As does reading the "playing the game" chapters carefully.

[Unoriginal]

Honestly I find that even build guides are failures (or at least underwhelming) because the necessity of making large assumptions about the game that will be played tend to dictate the result. They can't consider party makeup (very well, anyway) nor DM design decisions, nor styles of campaigns, nor...

Something as simple as changing the average makeup of fights from one or two big monsters to a hoard of little guys (who are much more challenging in reality than numerically more potent, but fewer foes IMX) makes a lot of "killer" builds drop way down in effectiveness. As does varying the number of fights per day. Or throwing in things that aren't fights, or aren't fights in big open spaces (looking at you, mounted builds).

Quite true.

An useful "build guide" has to include making clear *what situations* the build shines in, and where it's performing poorly.

There's a reason why white room theorycrafting is so prevalent, and so prevalently not acknowledged as being white room theorycrafting.

[Asisreo1]

Equipage is build. It provides in combat options you wouldn’t otherwise have, which is why it is a good idea.

The tactical decision is when to stow or drop your sword and ready your bow. If you chose not to carry one and one isn’t available once initiative gets rolled, you are out of luck.

It is an easier build choice to fix than not having selected a damage cantrip, but it is still a build decision that opens or closes tactical options.
It's a bit of both. While I'm telling you what to equip, I'm also telling you how (and implicitly when) to use the equipment.

First step: acquire ranged weapons

Second step: use those weapons when outside your thrown range


Fighters, in particular, must have a diverse set of equipment and must use them. Fighters should have these subtypes of weapons: reach, 2d6, ranged, thrown, one-handed, light. Each has their own benefit and downside. One-handed weapons let you focus on having a shield and boosting AC when your HP is a little low for comfort. 2d6 lets you bring in the big damage guns. Reach lets you kite an enemy without needing to disengage while also increasing your effective OA range. The build is what to have with you, the tactics is using that at the appointed times.

Armor must be considered too. Of course, you'll want to have plate armor, but you'll want breastplate too. Something to make stealth not so painful. Switch them out when you need to sneak. Shields should always be on your person, just in case you need that extra defense.

General advice: When your in a long-distance ranged fight, go prone while approaching. It's free disadvantage on incoming attacks. It literally costs you nothing. It's absurd the amount of players I see standing around as an easy target against ranged enemies when they can take advantage of going prone.

[Cheesegear]

Spell cards are a lifesaver, especially for the wizards, druids, and clerics out there. Cards for druids with wildshapes or for summoners with their favored pets are also really nice to have. As does reading the "playing the game" chapters carefully.

Using GIMP, I've made a lot of cards using Gale Force 9's cards as a guide/template.
They're so useful.

[MaxWilson]

General advice: When your in a long-distance ranged fight, go prone while approaching. It's free disadvantage on incoming attacks. It literally costs you nothing. It's absurd the amount of players I see standing around as an easy target against ranged enemies when they can take advantage of going prone.

Well, it does cost you time. You have to spend half your movement standing up, so your approach will move you only 45' per turn instead of 60', and you'll spend more rounds taking fire before reaching short range. It's typically worth it though.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Using GIMP, I've made a lot of cards using Gale Force 9's cards as a guide/template.
They're so useful.

I should. At this point I have at least one copy of all the spell cards (two of the arcane boxes) and ones for the lower-CR creatures (even though I use an app for DMing). They were a lifesaver when I was playing with a highschool club where only a few actually had any of their own materials (other than dice, occasionally). I, myself, know many of the spells well enough through experience. But for new players, they're one of the must-have purchases IMO.

I also have a crapton of minis, although I always need more. Even have a bunch of AoS minis, despite their different base sizes. One of the best ways I've found to get new people to pick their general play type is to hand over a box of minis and say "pick something that looks interesting". Before talking about classes, races, or mechanics, just pick something that looks cool. Then we talk about ways to go from there, usually in the form of optometrist questions (is A better? or B? or A?...). Things like "ok, so you picked someone with a big sword. Are you more into heavy armor and skill or furious rage?" Or (having picked an arcane spell-caster mini) "So...nature, books, or deals with powerful creatures? Or maybe faith? Or you were just born that way?" The same questioning process goes through the rest of fleshing out the character. We put the high stats into the primary, then I go with secondary vs con for the next ones, and the remaining 3 get (e.g.) "Stronger, smarter, or better with people? OK, smarter. So of the remaining ones, which one are you below average at?" I find I get a lot of people who don't dump INT doing this. And they focus much more on the character, not the statline.

[Cheesegear]

I also have a crapton of minis, although I always need more...

And you use minis?
...I knew I liked you.


Before talking about classes, races, or mechanics, just pick something that looks cool.

I typically just use Martial, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic and Skills as my four categories of character (I try to encourage new players not to play Barbarian or Monk...I know the idea of Barbarian seems cool. You Rage and you hit things. Trust me, it's not that fun. Especially when you start seeing what the Arcane and Divine players are going to do...Hell, even the Fighter is going to pull some tricks at some point...And you'll still be Raging and Hitting Things. Monk...Is just bad.). It's worked well. I've generally found that helping new players pick a character is extremely easy. It's the players who have played 'a bit' and have a 'weird concept' that they want to try out. Experienced players - especially ones who have known me a long time - never try and pull anything weird, because they know that 'weird' doesn't work. Just play your class the way it was designed to be played, and you'll be fine.

As a off-and-on mini-painter-for-money (I am not a professional model painter, I refuse to call myself that, have you seen what professional mini painters actually do?). The player can just tell me what they want. I'll make it happen.

[PhoenixPhyre]

And you use minis?
...I knew I liked you.


They were a major draw with the kids. I even had a bunch of bigger minis (especially dragons) up around the classroom. About half of them I had painted (badly, I'm not a great painter), the rest were the pre-painted ones.




I typically just use Martial, Arcane Magic, Divine Magic and Skills as my four categories of character (I try to encourage new players not to play Barbarian or Monk...I know the idea of Barbarian seems cool. You Rage and you hit things. Trust me, it's not that fun. Especially when you start seeing what the Arcane and Divine players are going to do...Hell, even the Fighter is going to pull some tricks at some point...And you'll still be Raging and Hitting Things. Monk...Is just bad.). It's worked well. I've generally found that helping new players pick a character is extremely easy. It's the players who have played 'a bit' and have a 'weird concept' that they want to try out. Experienced players - especially ones who have known me a long time - never try and pull anything weird, because they know that 'weird' doesn't work. Just play your class the way it was designed to be played, and you'll be fine.

As a off-and-on mini-painter-for-money (I am not a professional model painter, I refuse to call myself that, have you seen what professional mini painters actually do?). The player can just tell me what they want. I'll make it happen.



Speaking of barbarians, one of my favorite characters was one.

The player was the younger sister of one of my high school players. Normally it was high school only, but she was in 8th grade and her brother dragged her along. Picture this. Tiny little girl, well under 5' tall and maybe 90 pounds. Very very quiet. Her teachers said she'd said like 3 words the previous year, and you could barely hear her when she spoke. Had never played or even really thought about playing. I put out the minis, and she immediately grabbed a big, axe-wielding chick. When I started talking about the classes, she immediately jumped on Barbarian, especially when I said that they hulk out and get angry and hit things. Chose to be a dragonborn. And yes, she was sure of it. Fastest character choice I've ever had from a new player. 7' tall, hulking, not very people-friendly.

Ended up being the most elementally barbarian character I've ever seen. All she wanted to do was kill. Her first reaction was generally "kill it." By far the most bloodthirsty, savage character I've seen. She liked nothing more than walking up and hitting things or breathing on things. And it felt like that was the real her coming out at the table. She was able to express that inner beast in a way she couldn't throughout the rest of her life, and it was beautiful. She got really into it and opened up quite a bit. I watched her come way far out of her shell. Because of a big, mean, dragonborn barbarian.

It's one of the (many) reasons I love TTRPGs. Getting to set aside the "real you" for a while and play something else, where being weird is normal, can really be a lifesaver for a lot of kids. In some ways, it was therapeutic. The thing that got me hooked on it was my first year. We played 4e, at lunch (so 30 minute sessions. Yeah.). I was new, they were new, so we ended up throwing out most of the rules and just playing it by ear. But the group really bonded. A couple of them later told me that D&D club was what got them through some really hard times. One girl, who was by far not the "typical" D&D player (I'd always seen her as more of the "social/popular type") joined "because she didn't want to sit with the same group at lunch any more". None of them knew each other, but they became friends and the friendship lasted well after they graduated.

I'd say that I had more of an effect on kids' lives for good running that club than I did actually teaching physics and chemistry. Several kids I mentored as part of it, acting as a touch-stone for their complaints and worries (many were "on the spectrum" and so weren't exactly good about social stuff). One I ended up running basically free-form games with--he only wanted the exploration part, the "and then what happens" part of wandering around finding new things. So I used him to explore the setting. He had access to every magic item in the game, basically, and we didn't do any combat. Just...talked and occasionally rolled an ability check or two. But to him it was something of a lifeline.

[Cheesegear]

Ended up being the most elementally barbarian character I've ever seen. All she wanted to do was kill. Her first reaction was generally "kill it."

I have the same character, in one of my games, also played by a child (no more than 10, IIRC). Unsurprisingly, his alignment is Chaotic Neutral.
I think, mechanically, Barbarian is a very child-like class, that requires very, very little input to play, and is a very classic class for what this thread was written for in the first place.

How do you play a Barbarian?
How do you play Dungeons & Dragons, as a Barbarian?

As a child, the player I have, can do very little outside of combat. Even making the simplest of choices, or the barest minimum of roleplaying, becomes difficult, because the player wouldn't know what to do in a real situation, and acts out, in character, as themselves. That is, lash out with aggression and violent force. Because the child, is a child, and doesn't have any other way to solve their problems, in real life, or in a fictional game about fictional characters.

Which is very worrysome in children; "Given the ability to hurt people you simply don't like, with few - if any - consequences, would you?"
Which was my mindset in high school, that thankfully I - mostly - grew out of. I didn't actually want bullies to stop bullying me. What I really wanted, was the ability to bully them. To be a bully myself (As seen in the movie, The Karate Kid).

His first reaction is also 'kill it', except, sometimes, it doesn't work. Either the rest of his party is against him on this. That is "No. We can't just hurt people we don't like." Or, it's simply a matter of "You understand that if you go into a 1v1 fight with this monster...You'll get killed. Even if we help you, you'll probably die, and some of us will, too. This monster is too strong for 'I Rage and I hit it.' to work."
The creature is Resistant to B/P/S damage. The attack barely does anything.

"I want to run up and grab him, and shake him."
The Noble is surrounded by 15 Guards and you believe the woman next to him, can probably cast spells. Are you sure?
"...No. I don't know what to do, then."
Have you tried talking?
"What do I say?"
Whatever you want.

The child then does nothing. Because he has been told 'just kill it', is very likely not going to work in this situation, and then sits in silence. Because he's a child who doesn't know or have any other way to solve his problems. He's a power-gamer in the making. :smallwink:

But also, how do you even put together a Guide on 'How to talk to people in order to get what you want'...I mean. That exact Guide absolutely exists. My Mum has it on her bookshelf. But how do you get children to read those kinds of books?

[Chugger]

Look for Treantmonk's guides on YouTube. He's an "optimancer" but goes deep into how to play his builds. He gives a lot of detail.

[Unoriginal]

Look for Treantmonk's guides on YouTube. He's an "optimancer" but goes deep into how to play his builds. He gives a lot of detail.

And he's bad at 5e optimizing & build-playing.


Well, bad-to-average I suppose.

[da newt]

I've seen a couple of Treantmonk's videos and I do like his format and included how to content approach, but I disagree with some of his choices and reasoning. They are a nice starter resource. In my opinion if he was a PC he's be like a level 6 optimizer - I'm looking for some strong tier 2 to tier 3 level resources (not resources for those PC levels, but resources of that knowledge / tactical level).

I read a lot, and dig into the PHB and other texts regularly. I'm all over action economy, cover and positioning. I appreciate all the general advice given, but I'm seeking the specifics and above basic level stuff. I estimate my own skill level pretty similar to Treantmonk's - I know quite a bit, but there are some holes, I figure I'm sort of at the top end of basic, and looking to edge into the more advanced tactical play ...

[LudicSavant]

In my opinion if he was a PC he's be like a level 6 optimizer

I think that's a good way of characterizing it.


I'm looking for some strong tier 2 to tier 3 level resources (not resources for those PC levels, but resources of that knowledge / tactical level).

What did you think of the first link I gave?

[OldTrees1]

Back before the servers got taken offline, I was a competitive esports player for Atlas Reactor (which is kind of like... multiplayer XCOM). Took home second place in world finals.

There's something that one of my fellow competitive players wrote up (incidentally, a guy who was on the first place team) that I think is applicable to all turn-based strategy games. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iw8kNLjLdhc&list=PLnzrJdL4p4-w1tBluhXuK-XnTZpbBg5i4

This series goes through some elementary game theory and applies it to some tactical situations.

It is a good start. If you are already familiar with game theory, then it might be less useful.

[opaopajr]

This will sound weird but it is true: Live your life and learn from observing it; if you want to "live extra lives" read, watch, or listen to stories of other lives lived and be open to (yet critical of) what was learned from it.

All that non-fiction and fiction of life, the sciences, arts, news, and gossip? That is the compiled consequences of actions. These are "extra lives lived" and the "observed" changed context is experienced knowledge gained from such living.

One of TTRPGs' fun attractions is it is "extra lives lived" without any real stakes to its consequences -- it's imaginary, and yet the lessons therein can be quite educational. Go play with less fear about embarrassment or failure, and bring your life (or "lives") knowledge to the table.

[LudicSavant]

This will sound weird but it is true: Live your life and learn from observing it; if you want to "live extra lives" read, watch, or listen to stories of other lives lived and be open to (yet critical of) what was learned from it.

All that non-fiction and fiction of life, the sciences, arts, news, and gossip? That is the compiled consequences of actions. These are "extra lives lived" and the "observed" changed context is experienced knowledge gained from such living.

One of TTRPGs' fun attractions is it is "extra lives lived" without any real stakes to its consequences -- it's imaginary, and yet the lessons therein can be quite educational. Go play with less fear about embarrassment or failure, and bring your life (or "lives") knowledge to the table.

Yes!

Another thing: In addition to just hearing a lot of advice on paper, you really want to have some way to put your skills and theories to the test and practice. Obviously you can and should do this by actually playing D&D (ideally by playing very challenging campaigns, see below), but it can also help a lot to play other games and have other life experiences.

A lot of important tactical skills carry over even across genres, and many other games are better in terms of having concrete feedback / quantifying your skill, whereas D&D can be pretty wishy-washy about that and leave people more vulnerable to incorrectly estimating how well they did.

So for instance...

- Go play something like, say, XCOM, don't read a guide, and practice until you get to a point where you can very consistently win on Legendary Ironman no matter what the RNG throws at you. While obviously there's a lot of differences between D&D and XCOM (or any other game), I can guarantee that many of the skills you learn will carry over, especially with regard to understanding probability and risk management (things humans are normally really bad at. Seriously, human intuitions about probability tend to be total garbage unless they are very thoroughly trained to replace those intuitions).

- Play harder campaigns. If possible, encourage your DM to make the game harder / throw more and higher CR encounters at you and to not pull their punches (e.g. enemies should frequently be going for the best targets available to them, finishing people off, not fudging rolls in your favor, etc). Ideally, you want a point that is just beyond your current ability to handle, and the opportunity to try until you can handle it. Which is tricky to find in D&D, but you don't need the ideal scenario in order to have a useful/educational scenario.

Note: It doesn't count if the 'hardness' comes from the DM being... whimsical. You will learn nothing more from a "Rocks Fall, You Automatically Lose" DM than you will from a "I fudged the dice so you wouldn't die" DM. The difficulty must arise from challenges where your decisions affect the outcome. Basically if it's fake difficulty (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty), you won't get better.

- You can also play out scenarios yourself (try to make them as practical scenarios as you can), escalating difficulty until you no longer know how to deal with the series of encounters, then try to figure out how to deal with it.

[MinotaurWarrior]

- Go play something like, say, XCOM, don't read a guide, and practice until you get to a point where you can very consistently win on Legendary Ironman no matter what the RNG throws at you. While obviously there's a lot of differences between D&D and XCOM (or any other game), I can guarantee that many of the skills you learn will carry over, especially with regard to understanding probability and risk management (things humans are normally really bad at. Seriously, human intuitions about probability tend to be total garbage unless they are very thoroughly trained to replace those intuitions).


Just using this as an example, I'd emphasize that repetition is not the same thing as practice.

XCOM, unlike DnD, is a game where you totally control the setting in which you play it. If you play it without distractions, with a clear head (not tired late at night, not intoxicated), taking your time, playing in small chunks, and reflecting on each chunk before moving on to the next, you will learn more in an afternoon than you would playing for months and months without any deliberative element to your practice.

I'm not an amazing XCOM player, but I went from playing XCOM 1 non-ironman with and without DLC & with and without the long war mod, to XCOM 2 Ironman by essentially deciding "I'm actually going to practice this." My experience with repeatedly playing XCOM 1 basically just had the value of letting me disable the tutorial prompts. A few missions practicing XCOM 2 was enormously more valuable.

[MaxWilson]

*snip*
"I want to run up and grab him, and shake him."
The Noble is surrounded by 15 Guards and you believe the woman next to him, can probably cast spells. Are you sure?
"...No. I don't know what to do, then."
Have you tried talking?
"What do I say?"
Whatever you want.

The child then does nothing. Because he has been told 'just kill it', is very likely not going to work in this situation, and then sits in silence. Because he's a child who doesn't know or have any other way to solve his problems. He's a power-gamer in the making. :smallwink:

But also, how do you even put together a Guide on 'How to talk to people in order to get what you want'...I mean. That exact Guide absolutely exists. My Mum has it on her bookshelf. But how do you get children to read those kinds of books?

This sounds like a Paradox of Choice situation, and instead of pointing the kid to entire books, I'd suggest giving him options. (It might be good to have someone besides the DM do this so there doesn't appear to be an implicit guarantee of success, but if necessary the DM can do it.)

"...No. I don't know what to do, then."

Have you tried talking?

"What do I say?"

It depends on what you want. If you want someone to help you, you can help them first. Tell them you want to do a job for them, and ask if they have anything they need help on. If you want someone to be angry at you, you can say something mean. If you just want them to like you, look around until you see something nice about them or something nice they did for someone and then tell them you like it. If you want to trick them into trusting you, you can pretend to help them but secretly do something else. What do you want to do?

Trick them!

Okay, so you're going to pretend to want to help them but then not really do it?

Yes.

All right, go ahead say it.

Do you have any jobs you need us to do?

Voila! The child is now engaging in non-violent roleplay. That's my experience anyway--new players (especially children) benefit from having a menu of possible options as well as the freedom to add their own options to the menu if they want. But don't give them a blank menu initially or they'll get confused.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I have the same character, in one of my games, also played by a child (no more than 10, IIRC). Unsurprisingly, his alignment is Chaotic Neutral.
I think, mechanically, Barbarian is a very child-like class, that requires very, very little input to play, and is a very classic class for what this thread was written for in the first place.

...

The child then does nothing. Because he has been told 'just kill it', is very likely not going to work in this situation, and then sits in silence. Because he's a child who doesn't know or have any other way to solve his problems. He's a power-gamer in the making. :smallwink:

But also, how do you even put together a Guide on 'How to talk to people in order to get what you want'...I mean. That exact Guide absolutely exists. My Mum has it on her bookshelf. But how do you get children to read those kinds of books?

In my experience, kids are some of the best manipulators, some of the best at wheedling what they want out of people. Because they can't do it any other way--the only power they have is persuasion. It isn't until later that their conscious self interferes with this sub-conscious ability that they get awkward. Heck, I've seen babies obviously manipulate people before they can talk.

Fun fact. I also played with my nephews (ages 13, 11, and 8) and their ~12 year old friend. Of them, the 8-yo has the most elaborate backstory. As a dwarf barbarian. Sure, he gets mad and hits things (flaw: anger issues made me, my wife, and 2 kids get exiled from our clan until I could control them)--his catch phrase is "summoning all my anger, I raise my maul above my head and DORF SMASH!", but he's also one of the more socially-perceptive and clued in people (both IRL and in character). With a really good heart. And didn't dump CHA (he's got the second-highest CHA in the group, behind the sorcerer who has no clue how to talk to people at the player level).

I think we (collectively) put way too much emphasis on class and build. The idea that a barbarian doesn't have any tools for anything outside of combat is preposterous--he's got all the tools that everyone else has. He's got a background, he's got skills. Sure, he doesn't have special-purpose, push-button answers for specific situations, but I'd say that those are rightfully few and far between anyway. Barbarians aren't doomed to low CHA--that's a min-max thing. Just like most characters aren't doomed to low INT even though min-maxers say to dump it because it doesn't control many mechanical levers.

We hyperfocus on the mechanics and forget the characters. Character, backstory, and personality (both player and character) should take most of that role. Not buttons on the character sheet. In fact, I'm really tired of the "I don't have a button for that, so I can't do it" mentality I see in players and especially in online discussions. You're playing a character, not piloting a robot who can only do what he's programmed to. And people aren't bound by the explicit powers and abilities written down on the sheet.



That's my experience anyway--new players (especially children) benefit from having a menu of possible options as well as the freedom to add their own options to the menu if they want. But don't give them a blank menu initially or they'll get confused.

So much this. It's why I don't say "what do you want to play". I give choices based on their choice of mini. I do the same in-game: I'll present a list of things I can see as possibilities and then leave it open beyond that. And they frequently take the 3rd (unspoken) path, so I'm not railroading. Just pointing out what their characters would see as options.

Writer's block/fear of the blank page applies to roleplaying as well. Breaking that ice and giving them a place to start even if they end up rejecting it and going somewhere else is important. Overcoming the static friction often requires a small push. Once you're rolling, it's easier to keep moving.

It's also a trick for sandboxes--if you just plop people down in a setting and say "have at it", most of them will freeze and not do anything. It's the pathological opposite of a railroad--not having a starting point or a clear idea where to go from here. I try to give a "quest starter"--something they can pursue if they want. If they don't, generally it's not a big deal. And if they do, they can move on and do something else once they're done. But it's a reason to get them to a particular locale, and an initial bit of momentum to get them started.

[MaxWilson]

I've seen a couple of Treantmonk's videos and I do like his format and included how to content approach, but I disagree with some of his choices and reasoning. They are a nice starter resource. In my opinion if he was a PC he's be like a level 6 optimizer - I'm looking for some strong tier 2 to tier 3 level resources (not resources for those PC levels, but resources of that knowledge / tactical level).

I read a lot, and dig into the PHB and other texts regularly. I'm all over action economy, cover and positioning. I appreciate all the general advice given, but I'm seeking the specifics and above basic level stuff. I estimate my own skill level pretty similar to Treantmonk's - I know quite a bit, but there are some holes, I figure I'm sort of at the top end of basic, and looking to edge into the more advanced tactical play ...

@Da Newt,

You know what you need? Duels! Learn by doing, then comparing your results with other people's results to see how to do it better. Post a situation, then see who can give you the most effective way to win it.

For instance, let's say you're a 20th level Eldritch Knight with Dex 20, Con 16, feats [Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Defensive Duelist, Prodigy (Athletics), Warcaster, Alert], and spells [Shield, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Absorb Elements, Darkness, Fireball, Polymorph, Protection From Evil, Stoneskin, Counterspell, Dispel Magic] plus cantrips [Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Light]. You have a nonmagical hand crossbow, a rapier +1, a shield +1, plenty of crossbow bolts, a net, pre-cast Mage Armor, pre-cast Light on your armor, 150 remaining HP, and 30 remaining spell points. (DMG rules.)

You're exploring the following cavern alone (let's say during downtime) and so far have encountered only only minor pests (a couple of skeletons in #43 and a roper in #15, all now dead), when suddenly... you're at point #9 when a Goristro emerges from point #32 and attacks you!

https://i.postimg.cc/Fzy0ZTRT/Dungeon-Map.png (https://postimg.cc/9wf4Xty9)

(Each square = 5' x 5'. Note that the Goristro occupies 3' x 3' squares but can squeeze through a 2-square gap at half-speed per PHB rules for Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces.)

For the sake of uniformity, let's say you're at point #9 right now, the Goristro is immediately west of you (5' away), it just spent its last turn Dashing into melee range of you, and it's now your turn. You happen to already know that areas #8, #9, #2, #3, #1, #7, #5, #13, and #6 are uninhabited. How many HP are you going to lose killing this Goristro?

You can decide whether you would have had your rapier + shield out or your hand crossbow, but roll this out (assume the Goristro chases you relentlessly until you die, using Charge + Gore any time it can without taking an opportunity attack, otherwise using Multiattack), post how many HP you lost, and tell us how you did it!

I'll post my own solution later.

[Unoriginal]

@Da Newt,

You know what you need? Duels! Learn by doing, then comparing your results with other people's results to see how to do it better. Post a situation, then see who can give you the most effective way to win it.

For instance, let's say you're a 20th level Eldritch Knight with Dex 20, Con 16, feats [Crossbow Expert, Sharpshooter, Defensive Duelist, Prodigy (Athletics), Warcaster, Alert], and spells [Shield, Mage Armor, Expeditious Retreat, Magic Weapon, Absorb Elements, Darkness, Fireball, Polymorph, Protection From Evil, Stoneskin, Counterspell, Dispel Magic] plus cantrips [Blade Ward, Booming Blade, Light]. You have a nonmagical hand crossbow, a rapier +1, a shield +1, plenty of crossbow bolts, a net, pre-cast Mage Armor, pre-cast Light on your armor, 150 remaining HP, and 30 remaining spell points. (DMG rules.)

You're exploring the following cavern alone (let's say during downtime) and so far have encountered only only minor pests (a couple of skeletons in #43 and a roper in #15, all now dead), when suddenly... you're at point #9 when a Goristro emerges from point #32 and attacks you!

https://i.postimg.cc/Fzy0ZTRT/Dungeon-Map.png (https://postimg.cc/9wf4Xty9)

(Each square = 5' x 5'.)

For the sake of uniformity, let's say you're at point #9 right now, the Goristro is immediately west of you (5' away), it just spent its last turn Dashing into melee range of you, and it's now your turn. You happen to already know that areas #8, #9, #2, #3, #1, #7, #5, #13, and #6 are uninhabited. How many HP are you going to lose killing this Goristro?

Very interesting setup, MaxWilson. Is the Goristro allowed to use it's Charge+Gore+Siege Monster ability to ram into the walls and provoke a cave-in?

[Nhorianscum]

I've never seen anything of Treantmonk it'd call a great job. Never seen anything of his I'd call a good job either, for that matter.

He also has a strong tendency to be way too attached to some ideas to allow his guides the flexibility a "play guide" would need.

I disagree with a large amount of what treantmonk says in the video's but I would hesitate to call these anything less than a good job.

Composing and performing a script is actually really hard and just finishing a 30 minute + script and speach is already an accomplishment for most folks. That said quality wise his public/performance speaking is far from perfect and the editing is poor at best.

As for play guides as a whole it's impossible to hit every note but we can address a general strategy for a specific build on the 1-20 climb with a "close enough" degree of accuracy in our planning and preparation. It's just a ton of work.

Monster play guides (TMKWTD is great) on the other hand are quite nice and can be very succinct.

[LudicSavant]

@Da Newt,

You know what you need? Duels! Learn by doing, then comparing your results with other people's results to see how to do it better. Post a situation, then see who can give you the most effective way to win it.

I've had a few games that did something like this. For example we had one game where it was a sort of... I guess Shadow-Marches-esque (basically, switching out players/DMs in a persistent world) except that they gamified the DM's side by giving them a 'budget' for putting monsters and other features in a dungeon. And then multiple parties would try to survive said dungeons and get rewards.

I remember making a particularly mean dungeon with a story about an allip and a tontine.

[heavyfuel]

The only way you can get better at playing the game is by knowing the nuances of the rules.

Unfortunately, there's no simple guide for this, as it'd be something that required you to read the dozens of pages of rules and also how these rules interact with one another.

[MaxWilson]

Very interesting setup, MaxWilson. Is the Goristro allowed to use it's Charge+Gore+Siege Monster ability to ram into the walls and provoke a cave-in?

In this context, let's say the only effect of ramming into a wall is that 100 HP of damage (vs. AC 15) destroys a square of stone (turning it from impassable solid stone into difficult terrain/rubble). A full cavein would be too complex to do without a live DM.

[da newt]

This will sound weird but it is true: Live your life and learn from observing it; if you want to "live extra lives" read, watch, or listen to stories of other lives lived and be open to (yet critical of) what was learned from it.
All that non-fiction and fiction of life, the sciences, arts, news, and gossip? That is the compiled consequences of actions. These are "extra lives lived" and the "observed" changed context is experienced knowledge gained from such living.
One of TTRPGs' fun attractions is it is "extra lives lived" without any real stakes to its consequences -- it's imaginary, and yet the lessons therein can be quite educational. Go play with less fear about embarrassment or failure, and bring your life (or "lives") knowledge to the table.

Thanks and I agree this is fine advice, but just for context: while I am decidedly childish, I'm 48, retired Navy CDR, masters degree, I've circumnavigated the globe, my kids are Sr/Jr in high school, and while I played D&D a bit in Jr/Sr High, I jumped back into it a little over a yr months ago when one daughter joined the school D&D club and the other fell in love w/ Crit Role.

I will be checking out the game theory link / videos.

[da newt]

Max - I'd be a Goblin (I love Hide/disengage and dark vision), and there is NO WAY I'd dungeon crawl while lit up like a Xmas Tree. Also all EKs should know Shadow Blade.

So I've got 150 hp, AC 21 w/ shield, 18 without, +11 to hit, I guess Archery FS (XBE and SS).

My instinct is to Kite the melee only Demon, so I'd like to Exp Ret and Magic Weapon, run and shoot, but that's 2 Conc spells, so I'd Exp Ret and suck up the resistance to all my attacks. w/ +13 to hit, -5 for SS, no good way to get adv, I'm not sure if it matters one way or the other (SS shot or regular). I'd dash and forego the XBE extra attack. I'd move away (giving up op att), shoot 4x, action surge shoot 4x, BA dash. I'd burn shield spell when ever it helps. Then rinse and repeat, around and around one of those big columns. It would be a slog as i (hopefully) slowly cut him down and prevent him from getting into melee with me without burning his action to dash, so I'd limit him to 1 op att per round only.

I wish I had fly, or a broom, or tabaxi climb ...

COA 2: stand and bang - w/ 21 AC + shield spell, I stay toe to toe and upcast Shadow Blade for 3d8 psychic damage and ADV on all attacks. If he tried to move away then charge, I'd BB the op attack. The hoof's prone rider is the scariest bit so I'd def duelist that one, otherwise while I'm sure I'd be good and bloodied, I think I'd win in the end. This is not very clever, but I think I'd limp away victorious. However, PFE&G might be better than SB, ...

So what could I do better?

[da newt]

So I'm not too happy with either of those, so I'll grab the best from both and Kite w/ my +1 Rapier (and hope the demon is as dumb as a zombie, and just keeps coming).

First Defensive FS and shield wielding = 22 AC plus Defensive duelist (+6 AC reaction) = 28 AC once per round. So I attack 4x, then action surge attack 4x, then BA cast EXP RET and move + dash 60' away (triggering an OP ATT vs 28 AC). Then on demon's turn I'm out of his attack range so he can move 40' and ready action or dash to me - I hope he dashes into melee with me so I can repeat turn 1, but if he doesn't I taunt him, maybe cast fireball (but a damage cantrip would be better for unlimited resource), and move to 60' away again. I always make sure I end every turn more than 50' from him. Every time he closes to melee with me, I attack 4x then scoot. I cast shield only if he will be able to multi attack. I recast Exp Ret if I lose conc.

That's better, but relies on a dumb enemy to keep plodding fwd.

My best guess at the math for the above and stand and bang w/ Shadow Blade (assuming all trips fail).

Kite w/ rapier:
19 ac vs +12 to hit means like 65% chance to hit for 1d8 +6 = 10.5 hp each = 4(.65*10.5)= 27.3 hp per round
28 ac vs + 13 to hit ~ 25% chance to hit for 3d10 +7 = 23.5 {and a trip save} = 5.9 hp per round

So like 11 rounds to kill it, taking 66 damage - ish. Assuming he only gets op atts, all trips fail, I attack 4x / round and run. But if you add in 2x action surge then 9 rounds so 54 hp.

Stand and Bang:
19 ac vs +11 to hit w/ adv ~ 84% chance to hit for 3d8 +5 = 16.5 each = 56.1 per round
27 ac (def fs + shield spell) vs +13 to hit ~ 30% chance to hit = 0.3*(2(3d8 +7) + 3d10 +7)= 17.25 per round

-> 5.5 rounds and ~ 95 hp taken, but 2x action surge makes a real difference making it 3.5 rounds only and 60 hp taken.

Did I do that right?

[opaopajr]

Your plan is one of the more sensible and safer ones. I would just reinforce what heavyfuel said about knowing the mechanical nuances:

Exp Ret. is a BA Conc spell that lasts 10 min. Given Goristro moves at 40' that would mean you would typically be eventually out-maneuvered for most races if you could only mve once per round. So you are looking for at least two movements a round, or a way to keep 50'+ away at most times. Also given #14 (and its anterior alcoves, *metagaming knowledge or presumed that this is a PC known map of said cavern*) is not yet confirmed empty (unless it is an oversight given the knowledge of #6) you may want to restrain your circuit to #5, 1, 7, 9, & 13.

First round is Exp. Ret. as BA, then since you need to get 50'+ away to not be further burdened by disadv. for missile atks, and you need to get to the other area so as to play keep away, while also going around the Goristro without triggering OAs, you'll need to use both Move and Action to get away. Within this 1st round movement you may find Action Surge to get your Extra Attacks a worthwhile softening volley (unless it is exactly in melee and would provoke OA to get away).

Further, if it was me, I would check to see what is in my pack or surrounds in terms of expendable items or enviromental assets. I have "One Free Interact with the Enviroment" each turn and I better start using everything to my advantage. Ideally I would be dropping some light sources, likely unlit for now, just to keep things interesting and as a contingency in case the Goristro or other unforeseen monster has tricks up their sleeve/s. If I had fine powders in a bag (flour, rust shavings, etc.) I would take advantage of the cave's lack of wind to set up potential explosive areas (more likely Force than Fire, but again all GM dependent) in the future as the Goristro and I run in circles. At the very worst a Fireball can ignite said dropped light sources or enviro-traps (emergency cave-in for retreat delays?), otherwise they are assets seeded for future vision and tactical threat. At the very least extra lighting prep can allow greater area Goristro (or other's) movement intel, or allow Light to be dismissed off my armor, and even used for misdirection feints (dropped lit sources can be moved later, Int w Obj then Drop again). Basically take advantage of your whole action economy.

Without trying to agg much else, I would see how far one spell, clever use of movement, expendable backpack items, and apparently limitless ammo (thanks Max Wilson GM! :smallcool:) can soften up the Goristro before I need to lunge for a quicker kill. Given at any time the Goristro can use its Action to Dash up to 80' to close into melee (spending its potential to Multiattack (unless latest Sage Advice has ruled it works differently than I remember)), I may have to be ready to Disengage and then BA Dash and Move my Spd to play keep away so as to keep my Exp. Ret. from a potentially Conc disrupting OA.

Lowest race speed I remember is 25', so together that's 50'+ average per round for 10minutes, or 60 rounds, just enough to play keep away. Given Goristro 8-to-16x 5' sq of movement there should be enough space to play keep away and conserve the most amount of resources in case there is further trouble on this floor... but that is no guarantee! And since I'm solo there is less room for error or extravagance. :smallsmile: Because I am sure the Goristro is only the beginning, and even if it was the biggest bad here, any lucky wimp mob could wipe me out if I am softened too much afterwards.

Contingency, expendables, tight mechanical knowledge, conservation of resources, fully use your action economy. Do your Logistics>Strategy>Tactics and you should be OK. :smallcool: Not flashy, but less risk. If this Goristro mob is less known, or GM modified (or buffed unknowingly beforehand from other mobs in the level), kiting still makes sense until more intel is gained and it also sets you up for a lifesaving tactical retreat. Survival is the better part of valor. :smallwink:

[Unoriginal]

So I'm not too happy with either of those, so I'll grab the best from both and Kite w/ my +1 Rapier (and hope the demon is as dumb as a zombie, and just keeps coming).

First Defensive FS and shield wielding = 22 AC plus Defensive duelist (+6 AC reaction) = 28 AC once per round. So I attack 4x, then action surge attack 4x, then BA cast EXP RET and move + dash 60' away (triggering an OP ATT vs 28 AC). Then on demon's turn I'm out of his attack range so he can move 40' and ready action or dash to me - I hope he dashes into melee with me so I can repeat turn 1, but if he doesn't I taunt him, maybe cast fireball (but a damage cantrip would be better for unlimited resource), and move to 60' away again. I always make sure I end every turn more than 50' from him. Every time he closes to melee with me, I attack 4x then scoot. I cast shield only if he will be able to multi attack. I recast Exp Ret if I lose conc.

That's better, but relies on a dumb enemy to keep plodding fwd.



Your plan is one of the more sensible and safer ones. I would just reinforce what heavyfuel said about knowing the mechanical nuances:


While Grappling has an high opportunity cost for a creature with Multiattack, a big brute like a Goristro is likely to use it rather than getting kited (if it doesn't cut the PC's movement short by forcing them prove with its Hoof attack).

But more importantly and more specifically for the demonic bravo, a Goristro can easily break any weapon fit for a Medium-sized opponent, even magic weapons, provided it lands a hit (well, a hit per weapon). And it's hard to prevent it to land a hit.

So the question is: what do you do if your weapons are destroyed?

[LudicSavant]

So the question is: what do you do if your weapons are destroyed?

This is an EK right? I'd summon another one.

[da newt]

What does it take to destroy a Shadow Blade or a +1 rapier? DMG pg 141 says most magic items have resistance to all damage. DMG pg 246-7 lists some basic object hp and AC for a stationary object - but what about for a weapon in hand? What would be right for magic weapon? What type of damage could harm it?

If his +1 rapier was destroyed I'd probably just cast Shadow Blade and stop running.

Yup - a grapple would mess up the Kite strategy, but would also require the Demon to get into range and still have an attack action available to attempt, this PC has Expertise in Athletics (+12 with 10 ST) to resist the grapple or escape it next turn (demon has +7 ST and no Athletics prof so a 25% ish success rate I think).

[Unoriginal]

This is an EK right? I'd summon another one.

An Eldritch Knight can only be bonded to two weapons at once, and can only summon those two. Presumably the EK in this challenge has bonded with the two weapons they are equipped with.


What does it take to destroy a Shadow Blade

Depends on how the DM reads the spell. The text does precise that it is a solid object, but also that the blade lasts as long as the spell does.

Personally since it's make of shadows held together by magic it'd say it is rather frail and such would have 3 (1d6) HPs.


or a +1 rapier? DMG pg 141 says most magic items have resistance to all damage.

A rapier has 10 (3d6) HPs, so it'd take 20 points of damage to break it in one blow. A Goristro deals double damage to items.


DMG pg 246-7 lists some basic object hp and AC for a stationary object - but what about for a weapon in hand?

I usually rule it as: either the wielder's AC or the substance's AC, whichever is the highest.


Max - I'd be a Goblin (I love Hide/disengage and dark vision), and there is NO WAY I'd dungeon crawl while lit up like a Xmas Tree.

That means your PC is blind outside of the 60ft of darkvision you're given.

Th Goristro could literally stay out of your PC's area of vision and throw stones as them until they eventually drop.

Getting kited by a Goristro is rough.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry for the double post, had to switch to my phone



Yup - a grapple would mess up the Kite strategy, but would also require the Demon to get into range and still have an attack action available to attempt, this PC has Expertise in Athletics (+12 with 10 ST) to resist the grapple or escape it next turn (demon has +7 ST and no Athletics prof so a 25% ish success rate I think).

While the math is correct as far as I can see, a Goblin PC cannot take the Prodigy feat.

[MaxWilson]

Max - I'd be a Goblin (I love Hide/disengage and dark vision), and there is NO WAY I'd dungeon crawl while lit up like a Xmas Tree. Also all EKs should know Shadow Blade.

So I've got 150 hp, AC 21 w/ shield, 18 without, +11 to hit, I guess Archery FS (XBE and SS).

My instinct is to Kite the melee only Demon, so I'd like to Exp Ret and Magic Weapon, run and shoot, but that's 2 Conc spells, so I'd Exp Ret and suck up the resistance to all my attacks. w/ +13 to hit, -5 for SS, no good way to get adv, I'm not sure if it matters one way or the other (SS shot or regular). I'd dash and forego the XBE extra attack. I'd move away (giving up op att), shoot 4x, action surge shoot 4x, BA dash. I'd burn shield spell when ever it helps. Then rinse and repeat, around and around one of those big columns. It would be a slog as i (hopefully) slowly cut him down and prevent him from getting into melee with me without burning his action to dash, so I'd limit him to 1 op att per round only.

I wish I had fly, or a broom, or tabaxi climb ...

COA 2: stand and bang - w/ 21 AC + shield spell, I stay toe to toe and upcast Shadow Blade for 3d8 psychic damage and ADV on all attacks. If he tried to move away then charge, I'd BB the op attack. The hoof's prone rider is the scariest bit so I'd def duelist that one, otherwise while I'm sure I'd be good and bloodied, I think I'd win in the end. This is not very clever, but I think I'd limp away victorious. However, PFE&G might be better than SB, ...

So what could I do better?


So I'm not too happy with either of those, so I'll grab the best from both and Kite w/ my +1 Rapier (and hope the demon is as dumb as a zombie, and just keeps coming).

First Defensive FS and shield wielding = 22 AC plus Defensive duelist (+6 AC reaction) = 28 AC once per round. So I attack 4x, then action surge attack 4x, then BA cast EXP RET and move + dash 60' away (triggering an OP ATT vs 28 AC). Then on demon's turn I'm out of his attack range so he can move 40' and ready action or dash to me - I hope he dashes into melee with me so I can repeat turn 1, but if he doesn't I taunt him, maybe cast fireball (but a damage cantrip would be better for unlimited resource), and move to 60' away again. I always make sure I end every turn more than 50' from him. Every time he closes to melee with me, I attack 4x then scoot. I cast shield only if he will be able to multi attack. I recast Exp Ret if I lose conc.

That's better, but relies on a dumb enemy to keep plodding fwd.

My best guess at the math for the above and stand and bang w/ Shadow Blade (assuming all trips fail).

Kite w/ rapier:
19 ac vs +12 to hit means like 65% chance to hit for 1d8 +6 = 10.5 hp each = 4(.65*10.5)= 27.3 hp per round
28 ac vs + 13 to hit ~ 25% chance to hit for 3d10 +7 = 23.5 {and a trip save} = 5.9 hp per round

So like 11 rounds to kill it, taking 66 damage - ish. Assuming he only gets op atts, all trips fail, I attack 4x / round and run. But if you add in 2x action surge then 9 rounds so 54 hp.

Stand and Bang:
19 ac vs +11 to hit w/ adv ~ 84% chance to hit for 3d8 +5 = 16.5 each = 56.1 per round
27 ac (def fs + shield spell) vs +13 to hit ~ 30% chance to hit = 0.3*(2(3d8 +7) + 3d10 +7)= 17.25 per round

-> 5.5 rounds and ~ 95 hp taken, but 2x action surge makes a real difference making it 3.5 rounds only and 60 hp taken.

Did I do that right?

I think you'll actually get more tactical insight from rolling things out (plus it's fun!) instead of just computing DPR numbers, so I'll do that for you below. (Just promise me you'll read them! They took a while.) The things about rolling things out in an actual practice combat is that even though your numbers are less statistically valid, actually "being" in the combat tends to give you more tactical ideas for what to do. You can run the DPR numbers later to check your theories, but first you should run the practice combats.

Before I start, small correction: with a shield you're AC 20, not 21. Defense Fighting Style only works with armor (not shields), so you can either have studded leather (12) + defense + shield + Dex 20 for AC 20, or Mage Armor + shield + Dex 20 for AC 20. Either way you're not getting to AC 21 on this Fighter.

Also note to those people suggesting build optimizations like Shadow Blade: I deliberately made this build suboptimal (e.g. no darkvision) to keep the challenge from being too easy. I wanted a number of strategies to look superficially competitive with each other, from putting up a Protection From Evil to buffing with Stoneskin to Magic Weaponing your hand crossbow to kiting with Expeditious Retreat.

So, you've suggested two strategies, and I'll roll them both for you once (twice would be better but I'll keep this short). You also suggested a strategy for a different build with Shadow Blade and I'll do that too.

#1, Action Surge immediately with Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter -5/+10, use Expeditious Retreat to move 60' away (taking one opportunity attack), repeat. Shield against hits.

#2, same thing, but with Rapier +1 and shield, and using Defensive Duelist against hits.

#3 (technically out of scope) use Shadow Blade instead of rapier + Expeditious Retreat.

Strategy #1 (crossbow and Expeditious Retreat):

Round 1:

Roll 8 attacks at +8 (need 11 or better to hit): 1,16,16,20,18,16,6,20. Five hits (d6+15/2) plus two crits (2d6+15/2). Hits for 8, 8, 10, 10, 9 (45), crits for 12, 9 (21). Total damage 76.

You didn't say but I'll assume you take the opportunity attack before casting Expeditious Retreat to avoid the threat of losing concentration. Goristro makes an opportunity attack with hoof: d20+13. Rolls 19 (+13). The AC 18 Fighter is hit, Shields (2 spell points) but it doesn't help. Makes a saving throw to avoid falling prone, rolls a 19 (+6), which beats DC 21, does not fall prone. Roll 3d10+7 damage: 22 damage taken.

The Fighter then moves back 30', casts Expeditious Retreat (2 more spell points), and is done.

Goristro Dashes 80' intending to pin the Fighter against the rock formation. We know however from looking at the map that the Fighter is just barely fast enough to make this fail--he will end his next turn 5' out of the Goristro's 10' reach. Red movement is this turn, orange is the Goristro's normal movement if the Fighter moves 60' back to his original position.

https://i.postimg.cc/FsN7DV88/Dungeon-Map-Round1.png (https://postimg.cc/pycWdz2J)

Therefore, the Goristro can only get opportunity attacks, and I won't show any maps in this fight going forward.

End of Round 1 status: Goristro has taken 76 damage. Fighter is down 22 HP, 1 Action Surge and 4 spell points.

Round 2:

Fighter makes another 8 attacks (needs 11+): 15, 8, 18, 20, 16, 7, 8, 1. Three hits and one crit: 9, 10, 9, 12 (40 total).

Goristro makes one opportunity attack with Gore: rolls 14+13. Fighter Shields (2 spell points) to reach AC 23, doesn't help. Roll 7d10+7 damage: 42 HP. Fighter makes DC 21 concentration save: rolls 19+8, succeeds.

End of Round 2 status: Goristro has taken 116 damage. Fighter is down 64 HP, 2 Action Surges and 6 spell points.

Round 3:

Fighter makes 4 attacks (needs 11+): 4, 14, 19, 9. Two hits, 10 and 8, 18 total.

Goristry makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls a 4, miss.

End of Round 3 status: Goristro has taken 134 damage. Fighter is down 64 HP, 2 Action Surges and 6 spell points.

Round 4:

Fighter makes 4 attacks (needs 11+): 3, 5, 17, 12. Two hits, 8 and 10, 18 total.

Goristry makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls a 3, miss.

End of Round 4 status: Goristro has taken 152 damage. Fighter is down 64 HP, 2 Action Surges and 6 spell points.

Round 5:

Fighter makes 4 attacks (needs 11+): 9, 15, 11, 20. Two hits, 9 and 8, and one crit, 12. 29 damage total.

Goristry makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls a 17+13. Fighter Shields (2 spell points) but it does not help. Roll 7d10+7: 40 damage. Fighter makes a concentration save, rolls 18+8: succeeds.

End of Round 5 status: Goristro has taken 181 damage. Fighter is down 104 HP, 2 Action Surges and 8 spell points.

Round 6:

Fighter makes 4 attacks (needs 11+): 20, 4, 10, 4. One crit, 11 damage.

Goristry makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls a 16+13. Fighter Shields (2 spell points) but it does not help. Roll 7d10+7: 51 damage. Fighter hits 0 HP.

End of Round 6 status: Goristro has taken 192 damage. Fighter is down and will die.
Results: Goristro is down 181 HP. Fighter is down 155 HP (i.e. is dying), 2 Action Surges, and 10 spell points. Goristro wins.

Strategy #2 (Rapier +1 and Expeditious Retreat):

Round 1:

Roll 8 attacks at +12 (need 7 or better to hit): 18, 15, 20, 4, 5, 5, 14, 7. Four hits for d8+6 (11, 11, 13, 9) plus one crit for 2d8+6 (14). Total damage 58.

Again, fighter takes the opportunity attack first, and the Goristro attempts a hoof attack to knock prone. It rolls 1+13 and misses. Then the Fighter Dashes 60' with Expeditious Retreat (2 spell points).

End of Round 1 status: Goristro has taken 58 damage. Fighter is down 1 Action Surge and 2 spell points.

Round 2:
Roll 8 attacks at +12 (need 7 or better to hit): 13, 5, 1, 14, 3, 3, 18, 12. four hits for d8+6: 14, 9, 11, 14. 48 damage total.

Goristro makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls 18+13. Fighter parries with rapier, boosting AC to 26, but 31 still hits. Roll 7d10+7 damage: 46 damage. Fighter makes a DC 23 concentration check, rolls 20+8, passes.

End of Round 2 status: Goristro has taken 106 damage. Fighter is down 46 HP, 2 Action Surges and 2 spell points.

Round 3:
Roll 4 attacks at +12 (need 7 or better to hit): 17, 3, 18, 3. Two hits, 7 and 13, 20 damage total.

Goristro makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls 5+13, misses AC 20.

End of Round 3 status: Goristro has taken 126 damage. Fighter is down 46 HP, 2 Action Surges and 2 spell points.

Round 4:
Roll 4 attacks at +12 (need 7 or better to hit): 9, 8, 19, 19. Four hits, 11, 14, 12, 10. 47 damage total.

Goristro makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls 20+13. Fighter attempts parry but doesn't matter, it's a crit! Roll 14d10+7: 99 damage. Fighter makes DC 49 concentration save, rolls 13+8, fails. Loses Expeditious Retreat.

End of Round 4 status: Goristro has taken 173 damage. Fighter is down 145 HP, 2 Action Surges and 2 spell points.

Round 5:
Roll 4 attacks at +12 (need 7 or better to hit): 18, 5, 19, 15. Three hits, 7, 9, 10. 26 damage total.

Goristro makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls 11+13, hits AC 20, but Fighter is able to parry (it misses AC 26).

Fighter re-casts Expeditious Retreat (2 spell points) to finish kiting.

End of Round 5 status: Goristro has taken 199 damage. Fighter is down 145 HP, 2 Action Surges and 4 spell points.

Round 6:
Roll 4 attacks at +12 (need 7 or better to hit): 14, 14, 3, 18. Three hits, 9, 9, 11. 29 damage total.

Goristro makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls 1+13, misses.

End of Round 6 status: Goristro has taken 228 damage. Fighter is down 145 HP, 2 Action Surges and 4 spell points.

Round 7:
Roll 4 attacks at +12 (need 7 or better to hit): 2, 13, 2, 19. Two hits, 13, 12. 25 damage total.

Goristro makes opportunity attack with Gore: rolls 20+13, hits. Fighter attempts parry but it's a crit. Roll 14d10+7: 90 damage. Fighter is down.

End of Round 6 status: Goristro has taken 253 damage. Fighter is down 235 HP, 2 Action Surges and 4 spell points.

Results: Goristro has taken 253 HP. Fighter is down 235 HP (i.e. is dying), 2 Action Surges, and 4 spell points. Goristro wins.

Strategy #3 (Shadow Blade, Defensive Duelist):

Okay, addressing Shadow Blade + stand there and take it, instead of Rapier +1 Expeditious Retreat kiting. This is technically outside the scope of the tactical challenge because you don't HAVE darkvision or Shadow Blade, but I'm going to assume you're a goblin with Shadow Blade (and therefore no Light spell on your armor) because I think you'll learn something from it anyway.

Round 1:

Ignite Shadow Blade III (5 spell points).

Roll 8 attacks at +11 with advantage (need 8 or better to hit): 19, 17, 16, 15, 18, 12, 9, 17. Seven hits for 3d8+5 each. 15, 17, 21, 21, 20, 18, 18. Goristro takes 130 total damage.

Now the Goristro hits you back. It backs up 20', then charges back 20' and attacks you with its Gore. It rolls an 18+13, which hits. You attempt a parry but it still hits AC 26. Roll 14d10+7: 82 damage. Roll a DC 41 concentration save: 14+8, fails. Shadow Blade ends.

End of round 1 status: Goristro has lost 130 HP. Eldritch Knight is down 82 HP, 1 Action Surge, and 5 spell points.

Round 2:

Ignite Shadow Blade III (5 spell points).

Roll 8 attacks at +11 with advantage (need 8 or better to hit): 18, 16, 11, 13, 16, 6, 13, 18. Seven hits for 3d8+5 each. 13, 14, 23, 14, 19, 16, 19. Goristro takes 118 total damage.

Again, the Goristro backs up 20', then charges back 20' and attacks you with its Gore. It rolls an 3+13, which misses.

End of round 2 status: Goristro has lost 248 HP. Eldritch Knight is down 82 HP, 2 Action Surges, and 10 spell points.

Round 3:

Roll 4 attacks at +11 with advantage (need 8 or better to hit): 9, 10, 13, 14. Four hits for 9, 14, 17, 11. Goristro takes 51 damage.

Goristro Gores: 7+13 hits, but Shadow Blade is able to parry it.

End of round 3 status: Goristro has lost 299 HP. Eldritch Knight is down 82 HP, 2 Action Surges, and 10 spell points.

Round 4:

Roll 4 attacks at +11 with advantage (need 8 or better to hit): 14, 15, 14, 15. Four hits for 17, 20, 22, 14. Goristro takes 73 damage and goes down.

End of round 4 status: Goristro has lost 372 HP and is dying. Eldritch Knight is down 82 HP, 2 Action Surges, and 10 spell points.
Results: Goristro has taken 372 HP and is dying. Fighter is down 82 HP, 2 Action Surges, and 10 spell points. Fighter wins.

Shadow Blade is very good at dealing damage, but by staying in range of the Goristro you let it hammer you repeated with the charge attack, and you can't even Warcaster (Booming Blade) to punish it for doing so, since you're saving your reaction for Defensive Duelist. At least you win, but you use a lot of resources and take a lot of damage, and one more lucky hit by the Goristro could have killed you. This is a case where you'd do DPR analysis afterwards, to see how much of this strategy's success was based on luck.

My own solution: kite more patiently

You're starting with hand crossbow out (AC 18, no shield). On round 1, Action Surge 8 attacks into the Goristro, then as part of that Action Surge (Arcane Charge) teleport 30' away from the Goristro (east), then move another 30', and Expeditious Retreat for another 30'. You've added 90' of distance to your initial 5', so you're now 95' away. The Goristro cannot catch you this round.

On round 2, move another 90'. You can actually use the tight terrain in the caverns to increase your distance advantage by more than 10' every round, e.g. by following the blue path below you'll gain 5' of distance for every 5' the Goristro has to squeeze through a 10-wide tunnel:


https://i.postimg.cc/Qt34242G/Dungeon-Map-Route.png (https://postimg.cc/06V0mf5c)
Attacking costs you 20' of distance (you move 60', and the Goristro moves 80'), and it has a 10' reach, so if you start your turn 35' away from the Goristro you are safe to attack, which will happen one turn in three even if you don't follow the blue route.

Rolling this out results in the following:

Round 1: 8 attacks at +8 (11 or better needed) from 35' away (within the dim light of Light armor), 10, 3, 10, 19, 11, 17, 12, 2. Four hits for d6+15/2: 9, 10, 8, 10. Goristro takes 37 HP. Cast Expeditious Retreat (2 spell points).

End of round 1 status: Goristro has lost 37 HP. Fighter is down 1 Action Surge and 2 spell points.

Rounds 2-3: Dash.

Round 4: 4 attacks at +8: 15, 18, 14, 4. Three hits for 8, 10, 8. Goristro takes 26 damage.

Goristro has lost 63 HP. Fighter is down 1 Action Surge and 2 spell points.

Round 7: 4 more attacks at +8: 17, 1, 11, 19. Three hits for 10, 9, 8. Goristro takes 27 damage.

Goristro has lost 90 HP. Fighter is down 1 Action Surge and 2 spell points.

It's not really worth rolling out the rest. If the Goristro is 1/3 of the way dead after 42 seconds of combat, and if I didn't have anything tricky planned to happen in the next 3 minutes and didn't intend for the Goristro to be smart enough to surrender or anything, as DM I would just declare the Goristro "dead after 3 minutes of combat", without actually doing the rest of the die-rolling.
Results: Goristro is dead. Fighter used 1 Action Surge, 2 spell points, and a bunch of crossbow quarrels, plus a little under 3 minutes out of his day. He can actually leave Expeditious Retreat up for another 8 minutes while he explores the rest of the cavern. Fighter wins decisively.

Final remarks (builds vs. tactics):
One of the deliberate anti-optimizations of this build is that I removed Mobile feat from it (normally it's a fairly high priority for my archer EKs), because under PHB initiative that would have trivialized the fight using ANY tactic (e.g. Booming Blade + rapier + Expeditious Retreat), and I wanted it to be at least somewhat of a tactical puzzle. You go to war with the army you have, not the army you'd like to have, and depending upon what DM you're playing with you may get stuck using a pregenerated character with a suboptimal "build".

Attacking every round isn't necessarily the best way to win a fight!

[da newt]

Unorigional - fair points. If the Demon had a bag of rocks and wanted to Kite me it would suck. As for a magic rapier only having 10 hp - that sounds ridiculous to me. How many Hp would a shield or armor have? How many hp does the Demon's horns have? It seems like a slippery slope, but interesting to think about. A lvl 20 EK starting w/ a +1 Rapier could give up 1 or 2 attacks every round to first destroy the Rapier then Shadow Blade 7 rounds (7 spell slots) which might not be too bad ... True - goblin would have to rely on acrobatics +11 to counter Grapple.

Max - Good stuff. Thanks. I knew my Kiting COA was weak.
I didn't think there was any way for the Demon to Gore for an op attack - they can't move off turn - but I guess it's just a standing head butt? (that's a great visual - a HUGE Demon trying to gore a small goblin - like trying to stab a mouse w/ a dagger attached to your face)
21 ac is MA (13) +5 dex +3 magic shield = 21 right? Good point about DFS needing armor, but I think 21 is right w/ the +1 shield. So Dueling would be better for these.
For the Kite and +1 Rapier: Man 2 crits w/ Gore are no joke and really change things up.
Arcane charge - never heard of it, learn something every day.
For the stand and bang w/ shadow blade example - I'd get an OP ATT w/ ADV every time he tried to move for a charge and attack w/ BB for 3d8 + 5 + 7d8 = 50 hp av and 84% chance to hit, right?

And then there's the Goblin's Fury of the Small for +20 damage which will all but guaranty his success!

[MaxWilson]

Max - Good stuff. Thanks. I knew my Kiting COA was weak.
I didn't think there was any way for the Demon to Gore for an op attack - they can't move off turn - but I guess it's just a standing head butt? (that's a great visual - a HUGE Demon trying to gore a small goblin - like trying to stab a mouse w/ a dagger attached to your face)
21 ac is MA (13) +5 dex +3 magic shield = 21 right? Good point about DFS needing armor, but I think 21 is right w/ the +1 shield. So Dueling would be better for these.
For the Kite and +1 Rapier: Man 2 crits w/ Gore are no joke and really change things up.
Arcane charge - never heard of it, learn something every day.
For the stand and bang w/ shadow blade example - I'd get an OP ATT w/ ADV every time he tried to move for a charge and attack w/ BB for 3d8 + 5 + 7d8 = 50 hp av and 84% chance to hit, right?

And then there's the Goblin's Fury of the Small for +20 damage which will all but guaranty his success!

Dumb question: what does "COA" stand for?

Yes, the Gore is just a regular attack. They have three attacks (Fist/Hoof/Gore) and can use any one they choose for an opportunity attack. But they can only get the extra +7d10 Charge damage on their own turn since it requires movement.

You're right, I totally forgot that I gave him a Shield +1! My bad. I'd have to look at the logs to see if the demon ever missed by exactly 1, but I don't think so, so I think that doesn't change any of the rolled results. Edit: in Scenario #3, round #3, the demon rolls 7+13 and hits AC 20 exactly, which gets parried, so with the Shield +1 the only change is that you wouldn't have to parry that round.

RE: opportunity attack, I believe it's an 87.5% chance to hit. At +11 to hit with advantage, you need an 8+, so 1-7 are a miss, which means 35% miss chance, squared for disadvantage = 12.5% chance of a miss. Or you could just go to https://shiningsword.blob.core.windows.net/public/v0.3/index.html#battle and plug in "avg 8d?" to get the same result. Similarly, "avg 4.att 19 +11a 3d8+5" will give you your average Shadow Blade damage (4 attacks against AC 19 at +11 to hit with advantage for 3d8+5 on a hit), accounting for crits, which turns out to be 70.20 DPR. I typically use that web site to calculate complex DPRs instead of doing my own math every time.

[Unoriginal]

Dumb question: what does "COA" stand for?

Choice of Action, I think.

[MaxWilson]

Anyone want to post another tactical puzzle/challenge?

I could maybe do another one, along the lines of "you're an 11th level elemental monk in a party of dumb Barbarians who just attack whatever is in frost of them. You're fighting a Nightwalker and six Wraiths. The Barbarians will attack the Nightwalker first. The Wraiths aren't kiting, they're intermixed with the Barbarians, focusing fire on one Barb at a time. What is your best strategy for this combat?"

[KorvinStarmast]

Choice of Action, I think.
It means Course of Action. (It's a bit of military jargon, originating from the staff officer training da newt and I accumulated over the course of our careers .... ).

(A bit of lore from that arcane profession: when you brief the general/admiral on the battle plan, you better have more than one course of action presented or you've not done your job correctly ... )

[MaxWilson]

It means Course of Action. (It's a bit of military jargon, originating from the staff officer training da newt and I accumulated over the course of our careers .... ).

(A bit of lore from that arcane profession: when you brief the general/admiral on the battle plan, you better have more than one course of action presented or you've not done your job correctly ... )

Ah, thanks.

Presenting multiple plans is good for communicating with your party in D&D, too. :)

[Asisreo1]

Anyone want to post another tactical puzzle/challenge?

I could maybe do another one, along the lines of "you're an 11th level elemental monk in a party of dumb Barbarians who just attack whatever is in frost of them. You're fighting a Nightwalker and six Wraiths. The Barbarians will attack the Nightwalker first. The Wraiths aren't kiting, they're intermixed with the Barbarians, focusing fire on one Barb at a time. What is your best strategy for this combat?"
I didn't look at the monster stats and I don't have all the details.

That said, I immediately recognize the wraiths are more important to deal with. The faster they're gone, the less they can disrupt the Barbs. Don't know their CR or AC/HP but at level 11, I'm doing +9 to-hit 1d8+5 x3 times...maybe. I might adjust based on my Ki.

With the lack of information, the only thing I'll commit to is Fire Snakes to try to take out as many wraiths as possible without being in melee (I want to Kite with my 50ft speed). If they catch up to my kite, I'll stop doing the third hit and use my Ki to Step of the Wind away (with my fire snake still going).

If I can get them to group up, I'll see if I can fireball them but it's unlikely. That stays in the back of my mind.

If they turn their attention to me, I'll gaseous form. I don't know their damage type but I'll guess its necrotic. I'll also guess its nonmagical necrotic, so I resist it.

In this form, I'll actually use Water Whip to try to knock down the NightWalker. What people don't often realize is that an elemonk can keep up their gaseous form and use Water Whip or Unbroken Air. I'm sure Unbroken Air is better in this fight since Wraiths and Nightwalkers aren't creatures I'd assume stronger than dexterous, but I want to go in as candidly as I would playing an elemonk.

[MaxWilson]

I didn't look at the monster stats and I don't have all the details.

That said, I immediately recognize the wraiths are more important to deal with. The faster they're gone, the less they can disrupt the Barbs. Don't know their CR or AC/HP but at level 11, I'm doing +9 to-hit 1d8+5 x3 times...maybe. I might adjust based on my Ki.

Here's a monster stat that you might need to know for this scenario: Nightwalker Multiattack consists one +12/5d8+6 necrotic Enervating Focus attack (DC 21 Con or HP reduction is semipermanent), plus a Recharge 6 Finger of Doom: DC 21 Wisdom save or take 4d12 necrotic damage and be paralyzed (until the Nightwalker's next turn ends), which ends Rage and allows auto-crits. If Finger of Doom isn't recharged they can make a second Enervating Focus attack instead.

If the Nightwalker is allowed to paralyze one or more barbs, that Barb is probably going to die under the weight of autocrits from a pile of Wraiths and a Nightwalker. So IMO your first priority is to keep the Nightwalker stunned as long as possible, while you use any leftover attacks after the Nightwalker to whittle away at the Wraiths (Flurry of Blows + Stunning Strike). Fireball is tempting, but if you can give your Barbarian buddies a way to attack a Wraith with advantage WITHOUT having to go Reckless, that will keep them alive longer, and hopefully when the Nightwalker finally breaks free there will be few enough Wraiths left that the affected Barb only takes serious damage instead of dying.

Hmmm, maybe I should flesh this out with details and run it. Say, three Str 20 Dex 14 Con 14 Wis 10 GWM/PAM Barbs (one Zealot 11, one Ancestral Guardian 11, one Bear Totem 11, and each Barb has a Glaive +1 and AC 17), and you're a Dex 20 Con 14 Wis 20 Elemonk 11 with Defensive Duelist and a Shortsword +1. You're all locked in a 30' x 25' sarcophagus with a Nightwalker and 7 Wraiths (the ghosts of an ancient murdered dwarf king and his seven treacherous friends who killed him) for the next 60 seconds. The Nightwalker and the Seven Wraiths will randomly pick a target and all focus fire on it until it's dead or begins Dodging before choosing a new target. The Barbarians will NOT focus fire (they're competitive with each other), they'll each pick a Wraith to kill until they're all dead, and will always attack Recklessly unless they already have advantage. Initiative has not yet been rolled, and this DM likes to re-roll initiative every round to keep things unpredictable.

[da newt]

Max - Yup COA = Course of Action - one plan option

So if you remove the requirement to Kill, I guess the best COA for your first duel is what I like to call "Tabaxi Rogue."

Turn 1: squeal like a little wuss, disengage action, move 30', action surge dash 30', Arcane Charge bampf 30', BA cast ExRet and move 30' and you are 120' away headed out the door with no chance for op att. Round 2: move 30, dash 30, BA dash 30 (save your other action surge for if you really need it to move 60' extra). Repeat. Go find your party.

0 damage taken, one spell cast, one action surge expended, no pride remaining.

[MaxWilson]

Max - Yup COA = Course of Action - one plan option

So if you remove the requirement to Kill, I guess the best COA for your first duel is what I like to call "Tabaxi Rogue."

Turn 1: squeal like a little wuss, disengage action, move 30', action surge dash 30', Arcane Charge bampf 30', BA cast ExRet and move 30' and you are 120' away headed out the door with no chance for op att. Round 2: move 30, dash 30, BA dash 30 (save your other action surge for if you really need it to move 60' extra). Repeat. Go find your party.

0 damage taken, one spell cast, one action surge expended, no pride remaining.

You'd get more mileage out of it if you do your Arcane Charge Action Surge first so you don't need the Disengage action at all. Teleport 30' + Dash 30' (action surge) + Dash 30' (action) + 30' Dash (bonus action) + move 30'. You'll be 150' away at the end of the first round, instead of 120'.

I'm pretty sure you're joking though because in this case it's better to kill the demon than run away. "Run away and look for backup" isn't a bad plan if backup is available, but it isn't necessary in this case.

[da newt]

Crap - one upped on my tabaxi rogue / Monty Python 'run away' COA.

I'll need to read up on Monks, 4EM, and those monsters before tackling the next challenge. I'm too ignorant to propose anything decent.

[Asisreo1]

Here's a monster stat that you might need to know for this scenario: Nightwalker Multiattack consists one +12/5d8+6 necrotic Enervating Focus attack (DC 21 Con or HP reduction is semipermanent), plus a Recharge 6 Finger of Doom: DC 21 Wisdom save or take 4d12 necrotic damage and be paralyzed (until the Nightwalker's next turn ends), which ends Rage and allows auto-crits. If Finger of Doom isn't recharged they can make a second Enervating Focus attack instead.

Those were my initial guesses before looking at the stats because I wanted to see how well I could do with as much info as I would have if I was a player.



If the Nightwalker is allowed to paralyze one or more barbs, that Barb is probably going to die under the weight of autocrits from a pile of Wraiths and a Nightwalker. So IMO your first priority is to keep the Nightwalker stunned as long as possible, while you use any leftover attacks after the Nightwalker to whittle away at the Wraiths (Flurry of Blows + Stunning Strike). Fireball is tempting, but if you can give your Barbarian buddies a way to attack a Wraith with advantage WITHOUT having to go Reckless, that will keep them alive longer, and hopefully when the Nightwalker finally breaks free there will be few enough Wraiths left that the affected Barb only takes serious damage instead of dying.

Hmmm, maybe I should flesh this out with details and run it. Say, three Str 20 Dex 14 Con 14 Wis 10 GWM/PAM Barbs (one Zealot 11, one Ancestral Guardian 11, one Bear Totem 11, and each Barb has a Glaive +1 and AC 17), and you're a Dex 20 Con 14 Wis 20 Elemonk 11 with Defensive Duelist and a Shortsword +1. You're all locked in a 30' x 25' sarcophagus with a Nightwalker and 7 Wraiths (the ghosts of an ancient murdered dwarf king and his seven treacherous friends who killed him) for the next 60 seconds. The Nightwalker and the Seven Wraiths will randomly pick a target and all focus fire on it until it's dead or begins Dodging before choosing a new target. The Barbarians will NOT focus fire (they're competitive with each other), they'll each pick a Wraith to kill until they're all dead, and will always attack Recklessly unless they already have advantage. Initiative has not yet been rolled, and this DM likes to re-roll initiative every round to keep things unpredictable.
My immediate first thought when finally looking at the stats are "Okay. Is this balanced?" The answer? No. Not in any conceivable way.

Obviously, this challenge is beyond "Deadly" though I'm sure you already knew that. The problem, specifically, is that it also goes way beyond the adventuring budget that the game allows. Even with the +1 shortsword and powerful builds, we're most likely just going to die.
The reason is that usually low CR monsters don't contribute to the difficulty and can be ignored. However, these wraiths absolutely do contribute to the difficulty and they bring the exp multiplier up to 2.5. This makes the Nightwalker's exp equal 62,500 exp alone. For comparison, our party's exp budget ends at 42,000 exp over the course of a whole day.

I don't think going for a stun is the correct option, though. It's easily a good move in certain fights but this creature in particular has a +13 con save. Even with my DC 17, it's still very likely to save in the first round. I don't feel comfortable doing anything but dodging with my bonus action. I'm likely in his annihilating aura which gives him advantage and if both hits, I'm taking 56 damage away from my HP and my HP maximum. That HP maximum is 80, btw.
He can also Finger of Death me since I'm also not likely to save. I'm more likely to save than the Barb's, true, but I'm still not above a 50% threshold.

Honestly, the best solution would be to attempt to flee ASAP or else we're rolling new characters.

[MaxWilson]

My immediate first thought when finally looking at the stats are "Okay. Is this balanced?" The answer? No. Not in any conceivable way

My favorite kind of balance, especially for tactical puzzles, is the kind you see on a football field or chessboard: one side may be better than the other but it's conceivable either side could win.

That said, it's possible this particular scenario is weighted against the PCs. It's even more possible that someone else will come up with a more interesting tactical challenge to talk about instead. Unless and until that happens, I'm happy to brainstorm about this one. You may be right about the Nightwalker being a bad target. Maybe it's better to focus on stunning Wraiths to help the Barbarians directly.

@Anybody interested,

Pick a strategy, run the combat, and tell us how many HP/ki you lost and how many your team lost, and how you did it.

[opaopajr]

Uncaught Error: Yes, that should have been 100 rds of Exp. Ret. Ten min. Conc spell with 6 sec. rds. (therefore 10 rds./min.), so should have been (10rds./min. x10mins. =) 100 rds., if Conc is maintained. :smalltongue: mea culpa.

Jargon migration is one of the bigger stumbling blocks in multiple system knowledge. What is defined (e.g. round, turn, etc.) let alone what is their version value (e.g. minute, seconds, GM dependent vaguaries, etc.), and their preferred processing (e.g. roll type, roll equation, rounding up/down) changes plenty, sometimes even between editions. :smallwink: But that's just an excuse.

edit: What is the ruling on a mob using their MultiAttack with regular attacks, like trying to throw rocks? Wouldn't their action economy break down to "Interact w/ Environ" pick up one rock, then Act = Attack 'Throw Rock'? And further wouldn't such be as an Improvised Weapon? Either the Goristro's Multiattack is limited to its Fist & Stomp (thus melee-locked), or even if it can throw multiple collected rocks it still has to spend Acts & Interacts to collect enough for more than one 1d4+STR/rd.

[MaxWilson]

Uncaught Error: Yes, that should have been 100 rds of Exp. Ret. Ten min. Conc spell with 6 sec. rds. (therefore 10 rds./min.), so should have been (10rds./min. x10mins. =) 100 rds., if Conc is maintained. :smalltongue: mea culpa.

I've made that error before too. Sometimes it just feels like there ought to be a 6 in there somewhere. :-) In this case it doesn't matter because 60 rounds and 100 rounds are both plenty of time to kill the Goristro.

[Frogreaver]

I had a thought (stop the presses): There are tons of good build guides all over the interweb that provide optimization advice, but there are few play guides that do a good job of showing how to get the most out of any build. It seems to me that it's pretty easy / simple to create a use this race, these stats and these feats, but that really only provides a fraction of the optimization. (I estimate it's around 33% build + 67% play = total effectiveness).

Where can I find the 'how to best play X class' guides that really provide the information needed to best take advantage of the tools a strong build provides? In my time playing, I've come across very few folks who can play at an above average strategy / tactical level.

Certainly there are some guides that include a few 'combo moves' but even those tend to leave out the why and how those combos work, and when you should chose X over Y etc.

How do I learn how to play more effectively?

For truly tactical play you need to be able to predict what the other players and enemies are going to do turn over turn. That's a skill you can test each gaming session. It's really the first step to becoming a good tactician. You can't analyze in combat decisions efficiently if you don't know the likely outcomes. It also helps if you can predict a few moves ahead using the what-if method.

It's also not something that a guide is going to be a particularly good medium for. Though something a guide could do is create a few hypothetical DM personalities and talk about what tactics / spell load outs tend to work best against each.

[opaopajr]

:smallsmile: You all must be around my age, or I around yours, as you play and think similarly. I assume the worst, assume context (& metagame knowledge) can be altered, and believe that "encounter balance" is an illusion. So I gun for all the options where I don't have to roll dice first.

:smallwink: Remember kids, the dice aren't your friends.

[Pex]

Another tactic to keep in mind.

Action Surge does not mean "Only Use To Attack Again". Taking the Attack action twice is great, but it is also situationally important to do other things. Sometimes you need more movement, so Dash. Sometimes you need to Use An Object or a magic item that's very important to be used Right Now. Sometimes you need to take two actions and neither of them is Attack, but those two actions are absolutely needed right then and there. The point is to think outside the box a little in your strategy as a Fighter. Still Attack Action twice when you need to put the beat down on the enemy, but also think about other things that could be done in the encounter if it makes a difference. Overcome the feeling you're wasting Action Surge if you're not attacking.

[MaxWilson]

I played through the level 11 Barbarians + Elemonk vs. Nightwalker + 7 Wraiths fight as described.

Result: PCs won, barely. The Bear Totem Barbarian had 64/104 HP left, the Ancestor Barb had 1/20 HP left (84 max HP reduction) and DC 20 on his next Relentless save, and the Elemonk was perma-dead with no ki left and 0/2 HP (78 max HP reduction) while the Zealot was either dead at 0/33 HP (61 max HP reduction) after failing too many death saves (stupid Aura of Annihilation) or perma-dead (depending on how RAW you run the Life Eater clause--by strict RAW it doesn't apply since the Zealot was already at 0 HP and dying when the Aura of Annihilation started damaging him, which means he wasn't "reduced to" 0 HP, but I say he's perma-dead anyway).

How was this (pyrrhic) victory achieved? Elemonk played very aggressively with Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike, plus positioning himself for an opportunity attack on a Wraith if it moved forward to focus fire on the current target-du-jour. (The opportunity attack wound up not stunning the Wraith but still, that was the strategy, and at least he got 10 damage out of it.) By stunning 1 Wraith on round 1, and four Wraiths (!) on round 2, he set the stage for the Barbarians to kill one Wraith on round 1 and four Wraiths on round 2, although it killed the Elemonk himself on round 2 when he became the unlucky focus of the Nightwalker's ire. By the beginning of round 4 it was just Nightwalker vs. Ancestor Barb and Barbarian, and unfortunately the Nightwalker chose to attack the Ancestor Barb instead of the Bear Totem. Ancestor Barb almost got vaporized on round 5 by a hit and a crit, but fortunately made his DC 10 and DC 15 Relentless Rage saving throws. On round 6 when everybody was close to death, the Barbs both rolled high initiative (19+2) vs. the Nightwalker's 15+4, and the Ancestor Barb did 73 HP of damage, barely killing the Nightwalker. (312 total damage vs. 297 HP.) Bear Totem's attack was not needed.

I don't really feel like playing through the scenario again, and there are obvious ways the Barbarians could have improved their game (focusing fire, etc.), but as far as the elemonk's tactics go I'm pretty happy with how effective he was. For a smart PC in a stupid party in way over their heads, he died well, and he saved two of his three friends from what many would have thought was a surefire TPK!

================================================== ===


Another tactic to keep in mind.

Action Surge does not mean "Only Use To Attack Again". Taking the Attack action twice is great, but it is also situationally important to do other things. Sometimes you need more movement, so Dash. Sometimes you need to Use An Object or a magic item that's very important to be used Right Now. Sometimes you need to take two actions and neither of them is Attack, but those two actions are absolutely needed right then and there. The point is to think outside the box a little in your strategy as a Fighter. Still Attack Action twice when you need to put the beat down on the enemy, but also think about other things that could be done in the encounter if it makes a difference. Overcome the feeling you're wasting Action Surge if you're not attacking.

This is also true for non-Action Surge actions. We saw in the Goristro fight that attacking every round gets you killed or seriously wounded.

Sometimes what you really need to do right now is Hide or Dodge or Dash instead of Attack, especially if you're not the party's primary dealer.

[Klorox]

One thing most guides miss is the tiers of play, some features should be rated differently depending on your level (and what levels you'll probably achieve).

Absolutely.
I think Treantmonk (https://treantmonk.wordpress.com) does a great job with this. His guides are build guides but he builds his characters from level 1 and discusses playstyle as he goes.
I wholeheartedly agree. Sorry @unoriginal :p


Some very important things to work on to become a stronger tactical player:

- Think in terms of the decision trees you create for your enemies (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24109520&postcount=49). This is an important skill for all characters, but is especially important for being good at playing tanks.

- Always build with your allies in mind. Discuss teamwork strategies with them. Build camaraderie and team spirit. Understand each others' options and capabilities. Work together as a well-oiled machine.

- Use cover at every opportunity. You wouldn't have your ranged characters sitting out in the open in XCOM, would you? So why are you doing it in D&D!? You should be utilizing the battlefield whenever you can. And manipulating the battlefield to make it more usable for you, too. Heck, in 5e even creatures give cover to other creatures. Use that.

- Vision, line of effect, and 'the information war.' This plays a powerful role in high-skilled play and is almost completely overlooked by many players.

- Think in terms of contingencies. Not "I probably won't fail, I have a 90% chance of success" but "when I fail 10% of the time, I will do X." You should have a whole if/then tree in mind for each foreseeable outcome.

- Think in terms of risk management over iterative probability rather than any single outcome. Something that works 90% of the time, but causes a TPK 10% of the time, is still a terrible strategy. Think about "IP proofing" and similar concepts.

- Use rituals as much as you can. Remember that you can use them while moving.

- Action economy is extraordinarily important. It is one of the most important variables to consider in anything.

- Remember that a defense is only as strong as its weakest link. Don't be Achilles. You could have 1,000 hit points and still get taken down by a single failed mental save, for example.

- Learn what kinds of things counter what kinds of things. For example, many people think that large mook swarms are incredibly deadly... but a solid AC and Disadvantage to be hit can cut their damage output from "kill the Reckless Barbarian in one round" to "almost no damage at all."

- Start accounting for more variables when analyzing your decisions. For example, if you're just treating GWM as "+10 damage" and not accounting for accuracy or the crit effect or the opportunity cost of taking a different feat instead, you're going to get extremely misleading results.

Wow, very well written!


I've seen the caltrops/marbles/flasks of oil suggestions above, and I agree.

Add extra rope to your gear pack, and carry around a sack of flour.

Flour helps so much if you suspect an invisible enemy nearby. Use those marbles if you suspect secret doors, they will find the slopes in the passages.

Use your familiar (if you have one). They can't attack, but they can help you spread out these items.

Don't think of this game like a video game. Think above the map. Think outside the box.

DMs often reward creativity and you can do so much in this game.

[LudicSavant]

Wow, very well written!

Another one to add to that list of mine from earlier, though I'm struggling to find the best wording for it...

It's not about how hard you win when you win, but about how hard it is to make you lose. You don't get any points for overkill.

This is why, for example, Assassin is often disfavored. If you have a strong character/group, and you both get Surprise and win initiative, you've probably already won. And yet Assassin's main ability only works when you meet that condition.

By contrast, a TPK situation doesn't need to be common for it to cause you to lose the game. When considering what kind of things you need to prepare for, you don't just want to think about how common that event is, but how severe the consequences for failing to deal with it are. Facing a common modest setback is better than facing an uncommon TPK.

[Segev]

This is why, for example, Assassin is often disfavored. If you have a strong character/group, and you both get Surprise and win initiative, you've probably already won. And yet Assassin's main ability only works when you meet that condition.

This is a very insightful point.

Perhaps the problem with the Assassin (at least at level 3) is not that it's power isn't "good enough," but that it's focusing on the wrong thing. It's focused on exploiting a situation any group of characters can create if the dice cooperate and they're not particularly bad at it. But it's a situation that, once created, is already easily exploited by any character. But the subclass does nothing to help bring that circumstance about. The class helps (a fair bit) by giving opportunity to be proficient in relevant skills and even to double that proficiency bonus, but even a +9 is only so-so helpful when you need everyone else in the party to avoid ruining the surprise.

What if, instead of giving bonus damage (which still isn't likely to instant-kill), the assassin had an ability that made him able to simply get the drop on people? Something like: "Assassin Strike: When initiative is rolled and you are not surprised, you may substitute a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check for your initiative roll. If you do, anybody whose passive perception your roll exceeds is Surprised." Probably not good enough on its own, especially if it renders the party worse off than the enemies due to bad luck or something. Maybe just add it to the third level, period, or make assassin strike work as long as you attack somebody who hasn't yet acted rather than somebody surprised.

More on-topic for this thread, I think the design theory behind the assassin play style is that they will sneak ahead of the party and set up an ambush, with the party rushing in after the assassin starts the fight if he doesn't finish off the target. I'm not sure that's GOOD play, though, because it leaves the assassin vulnerable for perhaps several rounds, alone and exposed. And it's not sufficient extra damage to really be a fight-changer unless the assassin could handle the fight on his own, anyway.

[Teaguethebean]

Back before the servers got taken offline, I was a competitive esports player for Atlas Reactor (which is kind of like... multiplayer XCOM). Took home second place in world finals.

Off topic but that's awesome I loved that game until it took 12 minutes to find a game.

[Evaar]

Another one to add to that list of mine from earlier, though I'm struggling to find the best wording for it...

It's not about how hard you win when you win, but about how hard it is to make you lose. You don't get any points for overkill.

This is why, for example, Assassin is often disfavored. If you have a strong character/group, and you both get Surprise and win initiative, you've probably already won. And yet Assassin's main ability only works when you meet that condition.

Sounds like you're describing what TCG players call "win-more" cards.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Dfi7Snzs4pGSAu52b/the-problem-of-win-more

In brief, for anyone who isn't familiar with the lingo, it's a card that feels awesome to use... but only when you're already in a winning position. Played from "behind" or when you're losing, it isn't actually going to help turn the game around. And the fact that you're dedicating resources to it when you could've dedicated them to something more practical means you're in a weaker overall position.

[MaxWilson]

Sounds like you're describing what TCG players call "win-more" cards.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Dfi7Snzs4pGSAu52b/the-problem-of-win-more

In brief, for anyone who isn't familiar with the lingo, it's a card that feels awesome to use... but only when you're already in a winning position. Played from "behind" or when you're losing, it isn't actually going to help turn the game around. And the fact that you're dedicating resources to it when you could've dedicated them to something more practical means you're in a weaker overall position.

One of the characteristics of 5E play is that players expect to be in a win-more position by default, so they just compete to see who can win most. I believe, for example, this is one reason why paladin smites are popular, despite being a horribly inefficient use of spell slots even compared to paladin spells, especially if you use Divine Smite on a non-crit.

Therefore I advocate cranking the difficulty up to the point where surviving one or more adventures is an achievement.

[LudicSavant]

Sounds like you're describing what TCG players call "win-more" cards.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/Dfi7Snzs4pGSAu52b/the-problem-of-win-more

In brief, for anyone who isn't familiar with the lingo, it's a card that feels awesome to use... but only when you're already in a winning position. Played from "behind" or when you're losing, it isn't actually going to help turn the game around. And the fact that you're dedicating resources to it when you could've dedicated them to something more practical means you're in a weaker overall position.

Yes, that's the one.

Basically Assassin is mediocre because it's largely comprised of 'win-more' cards. Whereas things like Revivify are great because even if you don't end up needing them, the very fact that it was 'in hand' put you in a stronger/safer position.

I'm not super fond of the name 'win-more cards' because it could be misinterpreted by someone who hasn't heard the term before as 'cards that cause you to win more often' when they really do the opposite. They're more like 'unnecessary overkill when you've already won, at the cost of being less able to change a losing position into a winning one.' But that's not as short and catchy.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes, that's the one.

Basically Assassin is mediocre because it's largely comprised of 'win-more' cards. Whereas things like Revivify are great because even if you don't end up needing them, the very fact that it was 'in hand' put you in a stronger/safer position.

I'm not super fond of the name 'win-more cards' because it could be misinterpreted by someone who hasn't heard the term before as 'cards that cause you to win more often' when they really do the opposite. They're more like 'unnecessary overkill when you've already won, at the cost of being less able to change a losing position into a winning one.' But that's not as short and catchy.

Here's the thing with Assassin. I feel like the part of Assassinate everyone focuses on (the auto-crit on surprise) is really just a minor cherry on top of the actual feature, getting advantage on anyone you beat in initiative. That means that as long as you don't go after every monster, you've got a guaranteed opportunity (with advantage even) to Sneak Attack. That's not something that most rogues can guarantee, other than Swashbuckler. Because with high Dex, you're likely to beat your allies to the punch. Which means none of them are in range to get "normal" Sneak Attack and you have to try to hide (if there's anything around, hope you're not a melee rogue) or otherwise get advantage to get your Sneak Attack off on the first turn.

And this comes up every single combat. So even if the auto-crit only comes up 1-2x per campaign, it's just not that big a deal. And when it does, it feels really nice (even if it's mathematically mediocre) to get that big crit against something nasty. And there's something about rogue crits, especially at high levels that makes the "rolling all the dice" smiles start.

Sure, it's not a super-powered feature, but really, none of the PHB rogue level 3 sub-class features are that much of a combat boost.

Arcane Trickster: spells are something, but not that big a combat boost most of the time. Neither is Mage Hand Legerdemain.
Inquisitive: You get something similar to the 1st part of the Assassin feature, except it costs a bonus action and is contested (rather than happening all the time). And one target at a time. Plus other noncombat stuff.
Mastermind: ranged help as a bonus action. Good, but still costing a bonus action per target.
Scout: Movement improvements. No extra damage.
Swashbuckler: Also can Sneak Attack for no cost on first round...at the cost of having to charge ahead. You do get half of mobile for free though. This is also strong.
Thief: Movement and Fast Hands. Yeah, not much of a combat boost.

[Frogreaver]

This is a very insightful point.

Perhaps the problem with the Assassin (at least at level 3) is not that it's power isn't "good enough," but that it's focusing on the wrong thing. It's focused on exploiting a situation any group of characters can create if the dice cooperate and they're not particularly bad at it. But it's a situation that, once created, is already easily exploited by any character. But the subclass does nothing to help bring that circumstance about. The class helps (a fair bit) by giving opportunity to be proficient in relevant skills and even to double that proficiency bonus, but even a +9 is only so-so helpful when you need everyone else in the party to avoid ruining the surprise.

My take on Assassin is quite a bit different.

1. The advantage at the start of the fight is the most relevant of their subclass abilities. It pairs best with a ranged rogue (preferably woodelf for longbow proficiency and additional hiding benefits). What it allows one to do is attack with sneak attack in round 1 of the fight without having to wait on any allies to get in position. You then find a place to bonus action hide, preventing most attacks against you and provides advantage for round 2. Rinse and repeat.

2. The free critical in surprise round ability is for when you are scouting ahead. It gives your level 3 rogue the ability to instantly take out many level appropriate enemies in the scouting segment from ranged and also gives him the ability to perform some nice guerilla warfare style tactics. It's not an ability to expect to use with the main group. Resetting expectations around this ability tends to make the assassin rogue feel quite a bit better.

It takes a good DM to run scouting segments that are fun for the rogue and the rest of the party. With the right DM having a rogue scout ahead can quite enhance the fun of the game for everyone. It's definitely not a subclass that works well under every DM or playstyle, but it's highly effective in the right game.

[LudicSavant]

Here's the thing with Assassin. I feel like the part of Assassinate everyone focuses on (the auto-crit on surprise) is really just a minor cherry on top of the actual feature, getting advantage on anyone you beat in initiative.

Advantage on people you beat in initiative just isn't that huge a deal, especially for an Assassin who A) should be trying to be hidden or otherwise gaining Advantage before combat even starts and B) Assassin's sneak attack with Advantage still just doesn't do that much damage.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Advantage on people you beat in initiative just isn't that huge a deal, especially for an Assassin who A) should be trying to be hidden or otherwise gaining Advantage before combat even starts and B) Assassin's sneak attack with Advantage still just doesn't do that much damage.

But often you can't start hidden. That's just how the game goes a lot of the time. And it does more combat-wise than most of the other rogue level 3 sub-class features, so...

[Nhorianscum]

So as a note.

I've never seen a GM disallow or inhibit assasin class features. If the party and player are working to trigger this it normally happens....

And thus a single enemy is moderately to heavily damaged. Which is... just by default not really a big deal.

Assasin has the issue of being a full martial. People just don't like playing a martial without fancy buttons or "gasps" dm fiat in my dnd!

(Thing is assassinate isn't actually win-more. It's just dece t1 damage)

[Cheesegear]

One of the characteristics of 5E play is that players expect to be in a win-more position by default...

Here's the thing:

Winged Kobold (AC 13; 7 HP), is CR 1/4.
A Level 1 character with 16 (+3) STR, with a Longsword, is hitting at +5, for 7 (d8 + 3) damage.

You've done it. You're killing level-appropriate mobs, relatively easily.

You don't need 18 or 20 STR (Point Buy is **** 'cause you can't have 18s [and thus, 20s] at Level 1, amirite!?).
You can have a Shield to increase your AC and lower your damage dice.
You don't need a free Variant Human Feat at Level 1 (e.g; GWM, PAM).

You're fine. D&D is not that hard.


I believe, for example, this is one reason why paladin smites are popular, despite being a horribly inefficient use of spell slots even compared to paladin spells...

Paladin Smites are popular, in Party vs. Boss Situations, when a single target will typically be a few CRs higher and have mountains of HP, and you have to deal damage, fast. Ideally before the boss gets their turn. A great example is a Hydra; A Hydra has 172 HPs. But a 4-person party can kill a Hydra in one round, if they can each deal 25 Damage on their turn - and the Hydra loses initiative - which is only 100 Damage...But only if everyone deals 25+ damage each.

[LudicSavant]

One of the characteristics of 5E play is that players expect to be in a win-more position by default, so they just compete to see who can win most. I believe, for example, this is one reason why paladin smites are popular, despite being a horribly inefficient use of spell slots even compared to paladin spells, especially if you use Divine Smite on a non-crit.

Therefore I advocate cranking the difficulty up to the point where surviving one or more adventures is an achievement.

I'd say that Divine Smite is situationally efficient, due to the fact that it can't miss (that is, you use the resource once a hit is already confirmed), can critfish, is action-economy free, and because of the usual reason that novas are situationally efficient: sometimes it can be even more inefficient to let the enemy get another turn.

[Cheesegear]

sometimes it can be even more inefficient to let the enemy get another turn.

Build vs. Play; You're a War or Tempest Cleric.
Half your party is dead or dying; Should you heal, or keep dealing damage?
...How many HPs does the enemy have left?

[LudicSavant]

Back before the servers got taken offline, I was a competitive esports player for Atlas Reactor (which is kind of like... multiplayer XCOM). Took home second place in world finals. Off topic but that's awesome I loved that game until it took 12 minutes to find a game.

Awesome to see another Atlas Reactor fan in here. :smallsmile:

[Edea]

Build vs. Play; You're a War or Tempest Cleric.
Half your party is dead or dying; Should you heal, or keep dealing damage?
...How many HPs does the enemy have left?

Not enough data. Which members of the team are down? Some objectives require certain skillsets, others can be reasonably completed with warm bodies.
Why is half the party dead or dying? Is this just from a typical monster assault, or are there other environmental/social conditions in play?
If it's monsters, what kind, how many are left, are more coming, and how smart are they?
If there are environmental concerns, what are they?
If there's a social way to resolve this encounter, is that going to be a more efficient use of resources (which might also dictate whether I heal someone back up, and who)?
What spells slots do I have left unexpended, and what spells did I decide to prepare that day? Do I have a concentration spell up, and what is it if so?
What are we doing in this dangerous location? Are we just there to bash heads in and grab some loot, or is there an overarching objective with a strict time limit (or something else altogether)?
Etc., etc....

[Frogreaver]

Advantage on people you beat in initiative just isn't that huge a deal, especially for an Assassin who A) should be trying to be hidden or otherwise gaining Advantage before combat even starts and B) Assassin's sneak attack with Advantage still just doesn't do that much damage.

A) When you can hide before combat it's redundant. However, being in a position to hide before combat is often not possible. It's also possible you may have failed your stealth roll vs their perception. Basically it's a safeguard against not being able to sneak attack on your first turn.

B) On turn 1 going from normal chance to hit and only 1d6/1d8 + mod and no sneak attack damage vs having advantage and sneak attack from range is a huge difference in turn 1 DPR. It's a very significant swing in DPR on the most important turn in combat.


I'd say that Divine Smite is situationally efficient, due to the fact that it can't miss (that is, you use the resource once a hit is already confirmed), can critfish, is action-economy free, and because of the usual reason that novas are situationally efficient: sometimes it can be even more inefficient to let the enemy get another turn.

This I agree with. Divine Smite is a surprisingly efficient ability - especially since on attack based characters its hard to justify giving up their whole attack action for a lower level spell.

[LudicSavant]

*snip*

No one said it was a useless ability. It's just not enough to actually make them a high tier class.


On turn 1 going from normal chance to hit and only 1d6/1d8 + mod and no sneak attack damage vs having advantage and sneak attack from range is a huge difference in turn 1 DPR. It's a very significant swing in DPR on the most important turn in combat.

You seem to be comparing the ability to 'having no ability at all' instead of to 'being a different character.'

1d6+mod and no sneak attack isn't 'okay' damage raised to 'great' damage via advantage. It's garbage damage raised to alright damage via advantage.

[Frogreaver]

*snip*

No one ever said that anyone said it was a useless ability.
We are also talking rogue subclasses, not classes in general, and no rogue subclass gives anything spectacular at level 3.


You seem to be comparing the ability to 'having no ability at all' instead of to 'being a different character.'

1d6+mod and no sneak attack isn't 'okay' damage raised to 'great' damage via advantage. It's garbage damage raised to alright damage via advantage.

Why would I talk being a different class when you are talking about a rogue subclass being bad. Seems we should be comparing a rogue subclass to other rogue subclasses?

I think your damagometer is broken (maybe skewed toward high level play) :smallwink: You obviously rate poor/okay/good/excellent/extreme damage values on a different scale than I do.

[LudicSavant]

We are also talking rogue subclasses, not classes in general You replied to a comment that didn't compare them to any other Rogue subclasses at all, actually. You didn't actually bother to ask whether I was speaking in terms of classes in general or just Rogue subclasses.


(maybe skewed toward high level play) :smallwink: Nor was high level play mentioned.

[Frogreaver]

You replied to a comment that didn't compare them to any other Rogue subclasses at all, actually.

Nor to any other classes. Hmmmmm.......



Nor was high level play mentioned.

Doesn't mean it wasn't analyzed that way. Things don't have to be stated to be biased through that lens.

[Cheesegear]

Not enough data.

My point is/was that Tempest/War Clerics are a fantastic (sub-)class 'cause they can do everything.
They can melee, tank, heal and deal AoE magic damage. Look at all the abilities and spells they have. There is never a (combat) situation you can't handle. What a great class. Right up there with Paladin.

But because Clerics can do so many things (the Guide told you they could, right?), how do you know what you, as an individual, should do, at your table, with your party composition?
No Guide exists that can tell you how to actually play. I don't think such a Guide can exist.