Some optimisation for Joe the human

[Trandir]

So I'm doing some world building and I got a rather weird idea: Joe the human. A CR 20 human who is the absolute champion of the kingdom's arenas.

Joe has no class levels and only humanoid hit dice, which means he has:
- 80 d8 HD
- +60 BAB and can make a full attack with bonus equal to +60/+55/+50/+45
- 2+Int times 163 skill points (but no class skill so it gets a cap of 41 and effectively half the points)
- competence with simple weapons and any armor that will wear
- 28 feats
- 20 ability score impovememts
- Base bonus to saves as follows +42 reflex , +26 fortitude and will
- 220.000 gp to get some gear
- last but not least 50 points to dermine the ability scores

The main thing to choose is what feats to take. Any suggestion for those and anything else?

Edit: ok the budget for the magic equipment got increased to 800.000 gp
Sidenote: two of the main points for this NPC are: being human, which precludes most templates, being CR 20, so most templates and even class levels would result in a massive decrease of HD, and also would change the title of "the human" to "the (insert class)"

[Crake]

Well, just to throw it out there, but Humans advance through class levels, not racial HD.

[Trandir]

Well, just to throw it out there, but Humans advance through class levels, not racial HD.

Usually yes. But not this one, this unfortunate soul was born with 2 hit dice so he never could trade the first one with a class level. And then decided to just keep piling on racial HD.

[Seerow]

I actually had a thread about basically this a few years ago. You can take a look at what we came up with at that point here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?332557-Silly-Idea-The-Humanoid

[Maat Mons]

Leadership and Epic Leadership for a cohort higher CR than himself?

[ShurikVch]

Usually yes. But not this one, this unfortunate soul was born with 2 hit dice so he never could trade the first one with a class level. And then decided to just keep piling on racial HD.
Crake, probably, meant: outside of occasional "racial"(/"monstrous") classes, there are no way to just take more racial HD
In some cases, creatures could get more HD with age (like true Dragons); in some other cases - by absorbing the "life force" of their victims (like Barghests); but in all other cases - it's a non-option

Actually, it may be better to explain it via templates?
Beast of Xvim: + 1 HD
Lycanthropy (Legendary Tiger): + 26-48 HD; since it isn't prohibited, may add any number of other Lycanthropies/Entomanothropies (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20040621a) (since every "Were-..." could be, technically, considered a separate template)
Kaiju (Dragon #289): good news - +40 HD; bad news - Colossal size, 20' speed, and Int 2

Usually, the better way to get NI HD permanently is to spam "Awaken ..." over and over again; but there is no "Awaken Humanoid" spell, and HD gained during the magically-altered-time, could disappear when the form reverts to "normal"



- 80 d8 HD
Do you know about the Epic Destinies (https://web.archive.org/web/20090218080723/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080428)?
At level 30 - by the cost of 4 epic feats - you may get literal immortality (or even divinity (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#divineRanks)!)

[Trandir]

Crake, probably, meant: ... snip snap ...

Ye I know. Still I had the idea of putting this NPC in the world and I want to do it.

And yes the epic destiny seems pretty damn good but I would like to keep Joe as "human" as possible.

[Rebel7284]

If you care about skills at all, Able Learner effectively doubles your skill points.

A few instances of Martial Study might be helpful. Sadly, Time Stands Still and Strike of Righteous Vitality both have high prerequisites.

[Kayblis]

If you pick Roll With It over 10 times, you would effectively be a Dark Souls PvPer. Spending all stat points into Dex/Con and tanking hits is easy, and Power Attack is really something else with a BAB like that. If you throw 20 of those 28 feats into the dumpster you can still overpower anything that relies on direct number clashing. Able Learner lets you have more skills too.

For the rest though, you'll need Antimagic to not be trivialized. An AMF item or two(Staff, scrolls, etc) will pretty much carry you throughout the tournament day with its long duration, while all your skills are immune to it and you autosucceed on any relevant check. At a +41 to skill checks before stat mods, you're able to meet some low Epic DCs, including Sacrifice Checks to turn your defeated enemy into an offering to your god of choice in exchange for a great boon. You can also auto-identify any spell or power cast at you, so you can boast about reading your enemy's mind as you roll your 50+ check in Perform(blood sports) and (talking smack) for the crowd.

[ShurikVch]

How about to get spellcasting (as this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?219050-Fighter-with-level-9-spells) describes)?

[JyP]

Ye I know. Still I had the idea of putting this NPC in the world and I want to do it.

And yes the epic destiny seems pretty damn good but I would like to keep Joe as "human" as possible.
Do you want to go the One Punch Man way ? A normal human fellow which decided to do normal calisthenics but got granted surnatural strength, speed and resilience somehow ?

I would tend to use Paragon template from epic, and maybe add lycanthrope on top (legendary gorilla) - with normal human appearance

[nedz]

Why not use an NPC class like Commoner or Expert ?

Though 3 levels of Human Paragon seem appropriate.

[Toliudar]

A wing graft of some kind seems essential, to keep you mobile in your AMF.

[Trandir]

Do you want to go the One Punch Man way ? A normal human fellow which decided to do normal calisthenics but got granted surnatural strength, speed and resilience somehow ?

I would tend to use Paragon template from epic, and maybe add lycanthrope on top (legendary gorilla) - with normal human appearance

Pretty much yes, a Saitama

Is the paragon template worth the trade of 60 HD? Joe would have to remain CR 20
And this man is gonna stay as human as possible so no lycanthropy


Why not use an NPC class like Commoner or Expert ?

Though 3 levels of Human Paragon seem appropriate.

Cause the it would have been Joe the commoner, Joe the expert or Joe the human paragon instead of Joe the human. Also the CR would skyrocket if I'd use classes.


A wing graft of some kind seems essential, to keep you mobile in your AMF.

Seems like a good idea.

[Toliudar]

As noted, the easiest paths to victory for Joe would be through leadership, epic leadership, legendary commander, etc. Hand in hand with this, simply having Able Learner, 83 ranks in Diplomacy and the Polyglot feat would solve a LOT of problems.

[Trandir]

As noted, the easiest paths to victory for Joe would be through leadership, epic leadership, legendary commander, etc. Hand in hand with this, simply having Able Learner, 83 ranks in Diplomacy and the Polyglot feat would solve a LOT of problems.

Question: how do you get diplomacy as class skill? Without it able learner just doubles the number of skill points without raising the 41 cap that each one has.

[Rebel7284]

Question: how do you get diplomacy as class skill? Without it able learner just doubles the number of skill points without raising the 41 cap that each one has.

Probably one of these:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills

[InvisibleBison]

- 220.000 gp to get some gear

If he has 80 RHD, shouldn't he be an ECL 80 character and have the appropriate amount of wealth? According to the ELH, p. 317, an 80th level NPC should have 66.9 million gp.

[Trandir]

Probably one of these:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?451088-Alternative-ways-to-get-new-Class-skills

Thanks mate


If he has 80 RHD, shouldn't he be an ECL 80 character and have the appropriate amount of wealth? According to the ELH, p. 317, an 80th level NPC should have 66.9 million gp.

Should, but that's a tad too much so I went with regular capped for npcs at 20th level. Probably an 800k gp budget might be more appropriate

[AvatarVecna]

Should, but that's a tad too much so I went with regular capped for npcs at 20th level. Probably an 800k gp budget might be more appropriate

This is probably the best way to handle it, to be honest. Enough wealth and access to buying epic loot can invalidate pretty much anything else. Anyway, feat advice:

Able Learner at lvl 1 combo'd with a high Int will give Joe plenty of skill points. Add "Jack Of All Trades" to the mix so he can use skills untrained without investing in them, although you could also just drop 1 rank in a whole bunch of skills.

5 feats (Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Combat Reflexes, Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection) gets Joe immunity to anything making a ranged attack as long as he's able to react. The Dex/Wis requirements for Exceptional Deflection are steep but it's well worth the cost. This feat investment hurts less if you were already going for unarmed style, in which case...

Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, and Roundabout Kick will make Joe's unarmed combat much more threatening.

Init boosting stuff is never bad. Improved Initiative, Superior Initiative, and Quick Reconnoiter makes an easy +10 as well as quick perception skills.

Leadership and anything requiring it is objectively the best option, obviously, but that takes the spotlight off Joe.

Fast Healing at least once means Joe goes into every fight fully healed (for all his absurd HP), and Damage Reduction makes it that much harder to take him down. Huge Con requirement for both.

[DMVerdandi]

So I'm doing some world building and I got a rather weird idea: Joe the human. A CR 20 human who is the absolute champion of the kingdom's arenas.

Joe has no class levels and only humanoid hit dice, which means he has:
- 80 d8 HD
- +60 BAB and can make a full attack with bonus equal to +60/+55/+50/+45
- 2+Int times 163 skill points (but no class skill so it gets a cap of 41 and effectively half the points)
- competence with simple weapons and any armor that will wear
- 28 feats
- 20 ability score impovememts
- Base bonus to saves as follows +42 reflex , +26 fortitude and will
- 220.000 gp to get some gear
- last but not least 50 points to dermine the ability scores

The main thing to choose is what feats to take. Any suggestion for those and anything else?






I mean, there are many other ways to kind of express that you are just a super-normal human. Like, someone who is an expert at being a human, rather than any particular class ability.
Honestly, I WOULDN'T neglect using classes tbh.

A better use of 80 hit die to remain as HUMAN AS POSSIBLE would to use as many classes that don't require real flavor.

Paragon human template
>Paragon human 3/ Cleric of Zarus 17
/Divine Mind 20
/Factotum20
/Noble 5

Paragon human with Noble would show that he initially was just an exceptional human.
Cleric of Zarus is showing love of humanity itself begins to embue him with power
then divine mind is to go even further beyond, with the focus on being human above all else itself unlocking the mind, and factotum is another flavorless class which just shows mastery of adaptability and skill and inspiration.

Without necessarily taking NPC classes, this person is as human as human can get.
Take able learner at level 1.
Also take Monastic training and tashalatora with divine mind. This allows you to count it's levels as monk levels for unarmed strike, AC bonus, etc.

[AvatarVecna]

I mean, there are many other ways to kind of express that you are just a super-normal human. Like, someone who is an expert at being a human, rather than any particular class ability.
Honestly, I WOULDN'T neglect using classes tbh.

A better use of 80 hit die to remain as HUMAN AS POSSIBLE would to use as many classes that don't require real flavor.

Paragon human template
>Paragon human 3/ Cleric of Zarus 17
/Divine Mind 20
/Factotum20
/Noble 5

Paragon human with Noble would show that he initially was just an exceptional human.
Cleric of Zarus is showing love of humanity itself begins to embue him with power
then divine mind is to go even further beyond, with the focus on being human above all else itself unlocking the mind, and factotum is another flavorless class which just shows mastery of adaptability and skill and inspiration.

Without necessarily taking NPC classes, this person is as human as human can get.
Take able learner at level 1.
Also take Monastic training and tashalatora with divine mind. This allows you to count it's levels as monk levels for unarmed strike, AC bonus, etc.


Is the paragon template worth the trade of 60 HD? Joe would have to remain CR 20

This isn't about giving Joe 80 HD worth of stuff. It's about giving him CR 20 worth of stuff, and that happens to be Humanoid 80.

[Trandir]

I mean, there are many other ways to kind of express that you are just a super-normal human. Like, someone who is an expert at being a human, rather than any particular class ability.
Honestly, I WOULDN'T neglect using classes tbh.

A better use of 80 hit die to remain as HUMAN AS POSSIBLE would to use as many classes that don't require real flavor.

Paragon human template
>Paragon human 3/ Cleric of Zarus 17
/Divine Mind 20
/Factotum20
/Noble 5

Paragon human with Noble would show that he initially was just an exceptional human.
Cleric of Zarus is showing love of humanity itself begins to embue him with power
then divine mind is to go even further beyond, with the focus on being human above all else itself unlocking the mind, and factotum is another flavorless class which just shows mastery of adaptability and skill and inspiration.

Without necessarily taking NPC classes, this person is as human as human can get.
Take able learner at level 1.
Also take Monastic training and tashalatora with divine mind. This allows you to count it's levels as monk levels for unarmed strike, AC bonus, etc.

Your build is CR 80 tho, I am building for a CR 20, so that means that I can get 20 class levels, and honestly I'd rather go the full humanoid way


This isn't about giving Joe 80 HD worth of stuff. It's about giving him CR 20 worth of stuff, and that happens to be Humanoid 80.

This

[JyP]

Pretty much yes, a Saitama

Is the paragon template worth the trade of 60 HD? Joe would have to remain CR 20

Well, paragon template is CR +15, so should be compared with 60 HD increase.
+15 to all characteristics (vs +15 points with 60 HD increase)
+10 competence bonus to all skills rolls (vs (2+Int)*60 skill points) => I feel like Saitama is not *competent* though.
+29 bonus to AC
+20 luck bonus on damage rolls
+25 luck bonus to attack rolls (vs +40 BAB with 60 HD, so first negative trade)
12 hp per HD => with remaining CR 5 as an humanoid with 20 HD, 240 hp. (with 60 HD instead, 210 hp)


And this man is gonna stay as human as possible so no lycanthropy
well, lycanthropy template would match Goku from Dragon Ball ^^


Note that you have CR +5 max by being a lycanthrope, whatever the number of HD of the animal side.

[ShurikVch]

So, what's about the magic (as I said in #10 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24718591&postcount=10))?


Should, but that's a tad too much so I went with regular capped for npcs at 20th level. Probably an 800k gp budget might be more appropriate
Pity.
Gp is the best thing in the game (when Mart is accessible)
Take the Landlord feat (Stronghold Builder's Guidebook) - and you may just buy the Sigil (yes - that (https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Sigil) Sigil) :smallamused:



And yes the epic destiny seems pretty damn good but I would like to keep Joe as "human" as possible.
And what's so "non-human" about the Artifact Lord, Blade of Ragnarok, Eternal Hero, or Mythic Shadow?

[Trandir]

Well, paragon template is CR +15, so should be compared with 60 HD increase.
+15 to all characteristics (vs +15 points with 60 HD increase)
+10 competence bonus to all skills rolls (vs (2+Int)*60 skill points) => I feel like Saitama is not *competent* though.
+29 bonus to AC
+20 luck bonus on damage rolls
+25 luck bonus to attack rolls (vs +40 BAB with 60 HD, so first negative trade)
12 hp per HD => with remaining CR 5 as an humanoid with 20 HD, 240 hp. (with 60 HD instead, 210 hp)




So in order:
Fair that's 1/6th of the ability score increase
This is likely a tie
yup the AC is a lot worse
If Joe uses power attack at -15 it gets +15 damage and still +25 to hit. So this isn't that much different
So let's say we get Joe +6 enchantment to con, all Ability score increase there and started with a 18. Paragon Joe would have 580 HP, Joe the human would have 1080 HP. Each HD is an extra Con to the hit points so with a decent Con mod. it's better to take the extra hit die

And you forgot the special qualities and spellcasting, those are the main selling points here imo

And also forgot the main feature of the 80 humanoid HD have: 20 more feats that can be epic feats

[JyP]

So let's say we get Joe +6 enchantment to con, all Ability score increase there and started with a 18. Paragon Joe would have 580 HP, Joe the human would have 1080 HP. Each HD is an extra Con to the hit points so with a decent Con mod. it's better to take the extra hit die


well, through excel shenanigans it's even worse. Let's do Con 18, all ability increases to Con, with 80 HD versus paragon template with 20 HD :



CR

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20


level
1st - 3rd
4
8
12
16
20
24
28
32
36
40
44
48
52
56
60
64
68
72
76
80th


Con. Mod
4
4
5
5
6
6
7
7
8
8
9
9
10
10
11
11
12
12
13
13
14


con hp bonus for 4 levels
42
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
56
14


average hit dice for 4 levels (d8 / level)
15
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
18
5


total hp (die + con bonus)
57
131
205
279
353
427
501
575
649
723
797
871
945
1019
1093
1167
1241
1315
1389
1463
1482


























CR















16
16
17
18
19
20


level















1st - 3rd
4
8
12
16
20th


Con. Mod















4+7,5
12
12
13
13
14


con hp bonus for 4 levels















42
56
56
56
56
14


hit dice for 4 levels (max 8 / level)















24
32
32
32
32
8


+12 hp per hit dice















36
48
48
48
48
12


total hp (max die + con bonus +12)















102
238
374
510
646
680

[Trandir]

well, through excel shenanigans it's even worse. Let's do Con 18, all ability increases to Con, with 80 HD versus paragon template with 20 HD :



If you included also belt and books on top of the base 18 and the 15 from hit dice we get to Con: 44 and the corresponding modifier of +17. How did you got +24? And Paragon templated grants 12 HP per hit dice on top of maxing the hit die. So Joe the human gets on average 4.5+Con mod vs Paragon Joe with 12+8+Con mod. That said with a good constitution 3 times as many HD pull their weight.

The fist time my math was off. With the beefy setup of 44 Constitution we can get: Joe the human a healty 1720 HP, and Paragon Joe a solid 740 HP

[JyP]

My math was off also, I did not have right value for Con modifier (it increases every 8 levels), used a wrong hit die and did not include the +12 hp bonus... let me update my previous post.

[JyP]

Checking a bit yesterday evening : even without Humanoid HD cheese, it's not very difficult to setup a Kenshiro character (Hokuto no Ken - Fist of the North Star)

CR 7 : human monk 1, lycanthrope (legendary bear 40 HD) - he is the inheritor of Ursa Major, so we even have some background justification :smalltongue:

I would tend to use incarnum feats afterwards to pile on the kung-fu feats.