if martials had the same cheese as casters (a half rant, half joke)

[King of Nowhere]

i recently came across a few sources that are shamelessly made to provide casters with needless buffs. among them antropomorphic bat (+6 to wisdom, small, fly, but it's got a -4 to str so we can call it balanced and give it LA 0, as if a druid would care about a low str), luminous armor (a total +9 to your AC, including a -4 penalty to people attacking you that stacks with anything, but it gives you a str penalty, so again, we call it balanced). spells that daze you if you succeed your saving throw, you don't even want to know what happens if you pass. spells that ignore SR, ignore saving throws, ignore AC, ignore antimagic.
i'm convinced the major problem of caster/martial disparity is not particularly that casters are flexible and can change their abilities overnight, not even that they can contribute out of combat. it's that some unworthy writers saw fit to give them anything they may want. for every weakness they may have, they provided a spell that shores up that weakness. for every resistance the enemy may have, they provided a way to bypass it. and they slapped in a lot of ludicrous ways of inflating your numbers by tanking what are already your dump stats, or similarly gave other penalties that are completely irrelevant to keep the pretence of balance.
on the other hand, martials can't get nice things. if they try to get a better str, they immediately find themselves slapped with level adjustment. they must pay for every small advancement, and a capstone ability just gives another +1, or replicates a mid level spell.

so i decided to have some fun imagining what it would look if martials had similar cheese provided to them, complete with paper-thin excuses for how it should work. i hope you will find them fun. let's see if this can keep going.

ugly attack
you charge your opponent in a very ungraceful, yet surprisingly effective way.
you get +5 to hit and damage for the next minute. however, you look so ugly doing it that you take 1d2 charisma damage

and your sister too
you get an adrenaline rush and demoralize your opponent by shouting unspeakable insults against his mother
as a free action once per round you get +5 to hit and damage, while your opponent suffers a -5 morale penalty to hit and AC. since you insulted him so, you suffer a -5 penalty to any diplomacy check you attempt with your opponent for the rest of the day.
you can use this ability multiple times. its effect stack. also the penalty stack

parry with your face
you realize that your brain is not important for fighting, and you protect yourself accordingly.
once per round, whenever you are about to be hit, you can use parry with your face. the damage you would take from that attack is halved, but you take 1d4 damage to your intelligence

think with your muscles
you can use your str modifier in place of your intelligence modifier to determine how many skill points you get upon leveling.

body over mind
you can add your str modifier to your will save in place of your wis modifier.

brutugly
brutuglies are a race of dumb ugly brutes without apparent lore or purpose in the world except to be picked by players.
their racial modifiers are +12 str, -6 int, -6 charisma. the net sum of that is 0, so they get no level adjustment. they also have the idiot savant ability
idiot savant: brutugly are generally dumb, but smart in peculiar areas. they get +12 skill points at first level and +3 skill points every other level. they can also take the combat expertise feat even if their intelligence is too low to qualify.

sun brutugly
sun brutuglies are a variant race of brutuglies. they like to bask in the sun, so you can see even better how ugly they are. they take a further -4 to charisma over regular brutuglies, and an additional +4 str.

wood brutugly
another brutugly variant race. members of this race beat up each other with pieces of wood on the face, becoming even more ugly, but they develop agility in the attempt to dodge the blows
they take a further -4 to charisma over regular brutuglies, and an additional +4 dex.


celerattack
you can make this turn all the attacks you would have made the next turn. next turn, you make no attacks.

clobbersword
you learned to use your weapons in inconventional ways (hitting with the flat of your sword for bludgeoning damage, taking a splinter out of your axe's handle for piercing damage) to bypass some damage reductions
you can decide which kind of damage you deal (piercing, slashing, bludgeoning) regardless of your weapons. if your opponent has reduction to all those damages, you can choose to clang your weapons against each other very loudly to deal sonic damage instead, provided you have something to bash your weapon against

no save weapon
if you attack a target with this weapon and miss, the target takes full damage. if you hit, the target takes double damage and is nauseated

bondage training
you learned all about binding people with ropes from... unconventional sources
when you make a successful rope attack, you immobilize the opponent and start suffocating him. if the attacks fails, your opponent is still immobilized, but at least he's not suffocating, so it's all right

[Kayblis]

The funny thing is, if you gave all those joke abilities to a martial class like Fighter or Barbarian, it'd be Tier 3. You're still just hitting things in front of you, only differently. The official straight version of that joke is the Initiator classes, which are great T3 martials but because their abilities are not presented as limited, set-in-stone, full-attack-focused abilities, people call it a 'discount spellcasting system'. You can't have good things if you insist on only having the bad things, surprise surprise.

Most of what you cited as "shamelessly made to provide casters with needless buffs" usually are used by Gishes, who combine martial combat and spellcasting. Yes, you can have both, it's not illegal. Yes, magic makes everything better, even martials. This is not a surprise, that's high fantasy for you. The disparity is known by everyone, and what you do is usually talk with your players about the kind of game you want to have. If it's high magic, high powerlevels, magic solutions to everything, spellcasters are almost required. If it's your standard beer & pretzels game of "I roll to attack, hit, call me when it's my turn again", you'll be well served by an all-martial party, and someone can come with an unique character that hits with a bigger number from time to time. It's really a choice of how much your table is willing to complicate things.

Except Anthro animals, these have never been balanced just like anything out of Savage Species, and no one actually uses them anyways.

[SirNibbles]

luminous armor (a total +9 to your AC, including a -4 penalty to people attacking you that stacks with anything, but it gives you a str penalty, so again, we call it balanced).





The sacrifice occurs when the spell’s duration expires.

Book of Exalted Deeds, page 83


It's not even a penalty; you just take damage at the end of your adventuring day, then cast Restoration.

[Saintheart]

If martials had the same cheese as casters, katanas would actually be indestructible and would have a critical hit range of 1-20.
Yes, I said 1-20.

As it is, martials with similar cheese as casters would have already won every fight they ever got, get, or are going to get into in their lives, because they won it three rounds before it started.

[icefractal]

As it is, martials with similar cheese as casters would have already won every fight they ever got, get, or are going to get into in their lives, because they won it three rounds before it started.
If martials had the same kind of contingency cheese ... it might look pretty cool actually.

A: From stealth, I mentally picture the fight (divination equivalent). Immune to that ... that ... not to focused ranged attacks. Ok, I make a throat-seeking knife throw.
B: That triggers instant deflection, countered and I get initiative.
A: Which triggers my deceptive movement, that throw was a feint and the real throw will still hit.
B: Impending death triggers adrenaline burst, which moves me entirely out of range.
A: You moved, so instant shadow to put me back in stealth.
B: ...
A: No more counters?
B: ****. With the adrenaline burst speed, I'll run, trackless step to escape (the classic 'teleport away and start divining for info' tactic).

So yeah, caster-level cheese for martials? Sounds fun.

[Ignimortis]

If martials had the same kind of contingency cheese ... it might look pretty cool actually.

A: From stealth, I mentally picture the fight (divination equivalent). Immune to that ... that ... not to focused ranged attacks. Ok, I make a throat-seeking knife throw.
B: That triggers instant deflection, countered and I get initiative.
A: Which triggers my deceptive movement, that throw was a feint and the real throw will still hit.
B: Impending death triggers adrenaline burst, which moves me entirely out of range.
A: You moved, so instant shadow to put me back in stealth.
B: ...
A: No more counters?
B: ****. With the adrenaline burst speed, I'll run, trackless step to escape (the classic 'teleport away and start divining for info' tactic).

So yeah, caster-level cheese for martials? Sounds fun.

Isn't that just Exalted 2e with perfect defenses countering perfect attacks? I mean, it does sound cool...

[Saintheart]

If martials had the same kind of contingency cheese ... it might look pretty cool actually.

A: From stealth, I mentally picture the fight (divination equivalent). Immune to that ... that ... not to focused ranged attacks. Ok, I make a throat-seeking knife throw.
B: That triggers instant deflection, countered and I get initiative.
A: Which triggers my deceptive movement, that throw was a feint and the real throw will still hit.
B: Impending death triggers adrenaline burst, which moves me entirely out of range.
A: You moved, so instant shadow to put me back in stealth.
B: ...
A: No more counters?
B: ****. With the adrenaline burst speed, I'll run, trackless step to escape (the classic 'teleport away and start divining for info' tactic).

So yeah, caster-level cheese for martials? Sounds fun.

An object example of caster-level cheese for martials:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYWBSzkmH_A

[bean illus]

Awesome Physique [General]
Prerequisite
Str 16, Dex 16
Benefit
You gain +4 untyped bonus to your choice of either Dex or Str. As an additional benefit, any creature with an Int greater than 3 who sees you is immediately in awe of your physique, and cannot act for a number of rounds equal to your Dex or Str bonus (whichever is higher). This awe affects those who attempt to scry you, and the scry is immediately disrupted.
You're allies have grown accustomed to your awesome physique, and are no longer affected.

Imposing Presence [General]
Prerequisite
Awesome Physique
Benefit
Your Awesome Physique now affects creatures who sense your presence by means other than sight.

[Segev]

If we want to fully carry the joke out there:

Supernal Vision, requires 19 dexterity: you can squint and bend your field of view such that you can see from any point within your current line of sight as if you were standing there. This can be chained.

Shove the World, requires 23 strength: you pick up the world and put it back down beneath your feet where you want it. You may, as a standard action, change your position to anyplace not cut off by walls and ceiling from your current location.

[SirNibbles]

Shove the World, requires 23 strength: you pick up the world and put it back down beneath your feet where you want it. You may, as a standard action, change your position to anyplace not cut off by walls and ceiling from your current location.

That is way better than the mundane teleport idea I had:

Three-Dimensional Anchor: You throw an anchor or other heavy item attached to a chain (which is connected to you) towards your destination. You land within Xd20 feet of your desired destination. The further the location and the less familiar you are with your destination, the further away you land from your intended position.

[Darg]

Flesh of Clay [General]

Using your strength, flexibility, and strong constitution you manually mold your shape into any living thing you know.

Prerequisite
Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20

Benefit
As a full-round action you may assume the form of any single non-unique living creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. You gain all the extraordinary and natural qualities, forms of movement, attacks, and the ability scores of the new form. This definitely does not give you a bonus to disguise checks and all creatures must succeed on a concentration check (10 + 1/2 your HD + # of extra limbs and eyeballs) when performing any new action in order to not simply stare like a drone.



Eww...gross [Fighter Bonus Feat]

Your form disgusts all who perceive it and yet draws magical energy like a magnet.

Prerequisite
Flesh of Clay feat and have been called an aberration by even your puppy.

Benefit
You gain all supernatural and spell-like abilities and attacks of the form you assume using the Flesh of Clay feat.

Special
If you have at least 20 levels in fighter, you get 3 floating bonus feats that you may select and receive while molding your flesh. You lose these feats when you mold your flesh and so may select them anew or another 3 feats. These feats do not have to be fighter bonus feats.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If martials had the same kind of contingency cheese ... it might look pretty cool actually.

A: From stealth, I mentally picture the fight (divination equivalent). Immune to that ... that ... not to focused ranged attacks. Ok, I make a throat-seeking knife throw.
B: That triggers instant deflection, countered and I get initiative.
A: Which triggers my deceptive movement, that throw was a feint and the real throw will still hit.
B: Impending death triggers adrenaline burst, which moves me entirely out of range.
A: You moved, so instant shadow to put me back in stealth.
B: ...
A: No more counters?
B: ****. With the adrenaline burst speed, I'll run, trackless step to escape (the classic 'teleport away and start divining for info' tactic).

So yeah, caster-level cheese for martials? Sounds fun.

Now THIS is anime fightin' magic

[rel]

In the 3.x design space, mundane abilities have a chance of doing something while magic just works.

Even OPs sample abilities are largely following this rule.

The key to putting magic and skill on the same level is to make sure that all abilities follow the same design guidelines.

Either everything should just work, nothing should just work or the split should be the level or cost of the ability not some arbitrary check for robes.

[JyP]

In the 3.x design space, mundane abilities have a chance of doing something while magic just works.
Awesomest Presence : your presence bends reality to martial and mundane activities : a permanent zone of anti-magic surrounds you and your foes.

[King of Nowhere]

In the 3.x design space, mundane abilities have a chance of doing something while magic just works.

Even OPs sample abilities are largely following this rule.

The key to putting magic and skill on the same level is to make sure that all abilities follow the same design guidelines.

Either everything should just work, nothing should just work or the split should be the level or cost of the ability not some arbitrary check for robes.

i'm not trying to balance, nor am i proposing serious abilities. just wanted to poke some fun at the kind of stuff they give to magic users.

[NigelWalmsley]

Isn't that just Exalted 2e with perfect defenses countering perfect attacks? I mean, it does sound cool...

It also has the advantage of making fights end really quickly when the outcome is no longer in question. Save-or-Die gets some hate, but it has real advantages too.

[JyP]

In the 3.x design space, mundane abilities have a chance of doing something while magic just works.

Even OPs sample abilities are largely following this rule.

The key to putting magic and skill on the same level is to make sure that all abilities follow the same design guidelines.

Either everything should just work, nothing should just work or the split should be the level or cost of the ability not some arbitrary check for robes.
This is insightful for me - for example :

- Fabricate spell casting includes a skill roll to create the object from raw components and takes as much time as through Craft skills (a ritual taking weeks of time). Well, at least you need to do Spellcraft skill checks instead of usual craft skill check...
- Fabricate spell casting includes a skill roll to create the object from raw components and takes one round, but the object's duration is very short.
[...]
- Fabricate spell casting takes one round, no rolls and you have a perfect object, normal duration (default D&D). But you can cast it only a few times per day (the horror).

Same kind of shenanigans with Open Locks spell in fact - you are right.

[Quertus]

In the 3.x design space, mundane abilities have a chance of doing something while magic just works.

Even OPs sample abilities are largely following this rule.

The key to putting magic and skill on the same level is to make sure that all abilities follow the same design guidelines.

Either everything should just work, nothing should just work or the split should be the level or cost of the ability not some arbitrary check for robes.

3.0 Vorpal was no save, just die, and triggered on crit.

To *really* put them on equal footing, you've got to give Fighters d4 HP, only a single attack per round (no Iterative attacks, cannot be improved by Haste etc), and only a single attack per day (increases with level, see table).

Then these "techniques" (even ones that are not attacks, even passive or reactive ones) all cost a number of daily attacks to use.

I'll add…

Iterative Attack

By spending 4 additional attacks from their daily attack pool, the Fighter may make a second attack this round. They must still follow the limit on how many of their daily attacks they may spend on any one attack, however.

Iterative Attacks [epic]

Prerequisite: Iterative Attack

As Iterative Attack, but you may take this feat more than once. The effects stack. Each time you take this feat, you may make an additional Iterative Attack per round. Each one costs +4 of your daily attacks.

[Quertus]

Oh, right, and the New Fighter is such a manly man, he won't wear armor, and is such a good sport that he gives everyone else a free shot (all his attacks provoke an Attack of Opportunity (unless he makes a "Poor Showmanship" check or something)).

But, in more the spirit the thread was intended…

Tainted Fighter

You no longer take a penalty to Con from your Taint score. You use (10+ Taint) instead of Strength or Dexterity to determine your attack and damage bonuses.

You may create gear out of thin air / your blood / your Taint as an immediate action; this gear lasts for 1 round. You take damage based on the cost of the gear; see table. This damage is a cost, and thus may not be prevented.

Add your Taint score to the DC to resist Death by Massive Damage / Coup de Grace attacks / anything else where a save is based on damage from attacks you make.

[Tvtyrant]

Gravity of Flexing Muscles:
All opponents who look upon you are shaken to their core, and must compete with your brawny exterior. They must beat you in an opposed strength check to cast any spell, activate any magic item, or use a supernatural or spell like ability. If they lose the check the action fails and they are dazed until their next turn.

Matter over Mind:
You may treat all magic as if it was an illusion and your save to disbelieve it uses a force save. These illusions are treated as being 0% real if the save is made.

Fast Travel:
You and up to Dex Modifier number of allies arrive fully rested at your destination 24 hours later. Nothing of consequence occured in that time, and your enemies have lost track of you.

Piece of Mind:
You make a remark so inane it shatters the minds of greater folk as a standard action. Reduce the Wisdom, Intelligence and Charisma of all hearers to 8 for 24 hours.

Saddle Up:
You concentrate for 1 minute to activate this ability. You acquire an Animal or Magic Beast whose fortitude if less than your fortitude, they are unceasingly loyal to you. The aforementioned beasty must be paid in its HDx1GP worth of food a day.

Plot Hole:
As a full round action you yell and make a hole in reality that goes wherever you want. 15BaB requirement to use.

[GrayDeath]

Isn't that just Exalted 2e with perfect defenses countering perfect attacks? I mean, it does sound cool...


Now THIS is anime fightin' magic

Its called Excalted 2.5.

If all players are of similar Rule Competence, its Combat System is still amazing.

It sadly totally fails once that is no longer the case (yes, even moreso than D&D 3.5).

But yeah, had many such Experiences in that Horribly Exploitable little Gem of a Game. :D