Speculation What are the biggest problems with the warlock design and what would you change? [Archive]

LudicSavant

2020-09-20, 12:48 AM

So I've noticed a trend of the warlock being much more popular as a dip than as a primary class and I'm curious as to why that is.

It's because Hexblade is an insanely potent dip class. It also has some features which are better suited to dips than the actual class itself.

For example, it has Shield on its spell list. Shield is a really fantastic spell... when you're spending a 1st level spell slot on it, like a multiclass Warlock might. But a single-class Warlock spending 5th level spell slots couldn't really care less that Shield was on their list.

As another example, Hexblade's Curse, unlike the vast majority of class features in the game, scales with Proficiency rather than Class Level. A single class character doesn't care if an ability scales with Prof or class level, but a multiclass character sure does!

They also get some really strong level 1 features to hand out to multiclassers. In addition to the two I just named, they also pick up Booming Blade, Armor of Agathys, Cha-based melee attacks, and the coveted Medium Armor + Shield proficiency.

It's basically everything a multiclass dipper could want for Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers, Fighters, Wizards, and possibly some others too.

The level 2 features aren't bad either. Lots of useful Invocations. And Eldritch Blast is good for Cha-based builds.

OldTrees1

2020-09-20, 01:01 AM

Some of the causes are not problems. Here are 2 positive reasons for Warlock being frequently multiclassed into.
1) Warlock is mechanically unique and thus is the ONLY multiclass option for those unique mechanics.For example if I like Paladin but hate vancian casting, I might do a Paladin/Warlock multiclass in a 2:1 ratio. That preference would make me inclined to "repair" any vancian class by multiclassing with Warlock. That would naturally lend Warlock multiclass to be more common than single class for positive reasons.
2) Warlock early levels are consistently rewarding. It takes until 6th level for Warlock to have a dead level. Dead levels at higher levels encourage multiclassing into classes without dead levels at low levels.

However the 5E Warlock does have several problems:
1) A lot of its design is ad hoc and patchwork. As you might notice, Warlocks get 3 different types of spellcasting. This was probabably a compromise hack to handle the base "short rest slots caster" not working well in the "6-9th spells only get 1 slot vancian paradigm".
2) Warlock casting is not at-will. Sure they could not be full casters if it was at-will but the roots of Warlock was the at-will casting.
3) Hexblade 1st level has 1 too many features. Blade Pact has 1 too few features.

Moving 1 feature from Hexblade 1 to Blade Pact is a common change.
For a more radical change I would convert Warlock to an At-Will partial caster. How much casting they get could even be tied to their pact choice.

Toadkiller

2020-09-20, 01:31 AM

It’s eldritch blast and, later, Hexblade being too good from first level. I think it is typically dipping to gain vs dipping to get out of Warlock. Though many players would mix sorcerer in for spell point hijinks. Making EB scale only from Warlock level and making Hexblade different would be the fix. Not sure if it is really needed, but that’s a matter of opinion.

I’m playing one now, planning to stay in Warlock but the siren song of one level of Sorcerer is hard to ignore even just for the level one spell slots and a few more cantrips.

MaxWilson

2020-09-20, 01:42 AM

So I've noticed a trend of the warlock being much more popular as a dip than as a primary class and I'm curious as to why that is. So I would like to know what do you think are some of the biggest problems with the warlock that make it unpopular as a primary/full class and how would you fix/change them?

Speaking for myself, it's a few things but especially the lack of a endgame, due to Mystic Arcana not being upcastable and being only one per spell level. A lot of endgame full caster tricks like Planar Binding just plain aren't accessible to the warlock--or at least haven't been accessible until now. Genie Patron's Wish access is a big deal and may change that.

I also think the warlock class ought to be Int-based for flavor reasons and to distinguish them from sorcerers. Additionally I've found that they work much better under DMG spellpoints than PHB spell slots, so that lower-level spells like Mirror Image don't become a total waste as you gain levels--using spell points prevents their spell list from feeling uncomfortably narrow at 9th level and above. (You have to reverse-engineer your own spell point table/formula for warlocks but that's trivial. Just add up the value of the slots.)

However, my ideal warlock wouldn't be a class at all: it would be halfway between a condition and an artifact-level magic item with strings attached. If a fiend really wants to tempt you to be evil, he doesn't offer you a balanced character class, he offers you something really powerful like 200,000 instant XP, but if you ever go more than 24 hours without killing a sapient creature, you lose those XP permanently and half of your real XP too. Maybe some other magic powers on top, but the key point is that there are Faustian strings attached. A warlock could be a mighty wizard or a mighty warrior or even a mighty paladin, but they aren't _free_ any more, they're tied to something. (Think Harry Dresden's deal with Mab.) To me that's the essence of an NPC or PC warlock: power with obligations.

CDPhenix

2020-09-20, 02:37 AM

It's because Hexblade is an insanely potent dip class. It also has some features which are better suited to dips than the actual class itself.

For example, it has Shield on its spell list. Shield is a really fantastic spell... when you're spending a 1st level spell slot on it, like a multiclass Warlock might. But a single-class Warlock spending 5th level spell slots couldn't really care less that Shield was on their list.

As another example, Hexblade's Curse, unlike the vast majority of class features in the game, scales with Proficiency rather than Class Level. A single class character doesn't care if an ability scales with Prof or class level, but a multiclass character sure does!

They also get some really strong level 1 features to hand out to multiclassers. In addition to the two I just named, they also pick up Booming Blade, Armor of Agathys, Cha-based melee attacks, and the coveted Medium Armor + Shield proficiency.

It's basically everything a multiclass dipper could want for Paladins, Bards, Sorcerers, Fighters, Wizards, and possibly some others too.

The level 2 features aren't bad either. Lots of useful Invocations. And Eldritch Blast is good for Cha-based builds.

Well that is a very good explanation for the dip popularity but why do you think that warlock isn't popular as a primary class? Might it be because the later level abilities are poor or do you have other opinions?

CDPhenix

2020-09-20, 03:01 AM

Some of the causes are not problems. Here are 2 positive reasons for Warlock being frequently multiclassed into.
1) Warlock is mechanically unique and thus is the ONLY multiclass option for those unique mechanics.For example if I like Paladin but hate vancian casting, I might do a Paladin/Warlock multiclass in a 2:1 ratio. That preference would make me inclined to "repair" any vancian class by multiclassing with Warlock. That would naturally lend Warlock multiclass to be more common than single class for positive reasons.
2) Warlock early levels are consistently rewarding. It takes until 6th level for Warlock to have a dead level. Dead levels at higher levels encourage multiclassing into classes without dead levels at low levels.

Those are some very good reasons for the dip popularity.

2) Warlock casting is not at-will. Sure they could not be full casters if it was at-will but the roots of Warlock was the at-will casting.

For a more radical change I would convert Warlock to an At-Will partial caster. How much casting they get could even be tied to their pact choice

So what your saying is that warlock should get more invocations with more at will options (which is, correct me if I'm wrong, how they functioned in 3.5)? That is an idea that's crossed my mind previously and is a concept I like.

3) Hexblade 1st level has 1 too many features. Blade Pact has 1 too few features

Moving 1 feature from Hexblade 1 to Blade Pact is a common change.

I definitely believe that the charisma to hit ability should be moved to pact of the blade, not only to tune down the hexblade dip a bit, but to also improve on non hexblade based bladelocks.

sithlordnergal

2020-09-20, 05:26 AM

I'll be honest, the Warlock was a dip class long before Hexblade came out. Hexblade made the problem worse, don't get me wrong, but even without Hexblade, Warlock would mostly be used for dips. And its all because of one major design issue. If I were to sum up the problems of the Warlock, I'd say it was this: They get just enough resources to perfectly buff every class in the game, but don't get enough resources to stand up on their own. At least not until level 11 and higher.

What I mean by this is that a single classed Warlock only gets 2 spell slots per short rest until level 11. Provided your DM is balancing things around 2-3 encounters per short rest, you'll generally get to cast one spell per encounter, then you're stuck doing something else, usually Eldritch Blast. Now, you may think that the 2 spell slots are balanced by the fact that all warlock spells are cast at a max level, but it sadly isn't. Spells do not scale well in 5e, this is a well known fact, and to make it worse a majority of the Warlock spells either don't scale at all or scale poorly. Meaning the Warlock's key feature of always casting at their highest spell level is rendered moot. Think about it, the only Warlock only spell that scales super well is Armor of Agathys. Outside of that they either scale like every other spell, which is to say they scale terribly, or they don't scale at all. Even Hex, the premier Warlock spell, scales horribly since it takes up your Concentration. Meaning you can't ready a spell or cast a different concentration spell or you lose Hex. Not to mention the 24 hour duration at 5th level spell slots makes no sense since you automatically lose concentration if you sleep since you're Incapacitated while sleeping. I guess its good if you wanna stay up all night and risk a level of exhaustion...

However, Warlock spell slots are treated separately from a standard caster's slots, and as a result you can use them to get far more spells than usual. A Sorcerer 3/Warlock 2 is rocking 6 first level spell slots. To make matters worse, Warlocks have access to a lot of spells that are amazing, but only if you have a decent number of low level spell slots to burn. Take, for example, Hellish Rebuke or Arms of Hadar. Both are really solid 1st level spells, one lets you do a solid amount of damage for being hit and the other is a nice little AoE that can prevent multiple creatures from taking their Reactions. But both are terrible choices for a Warlock. The two spells only deal damage, Arms of Hadar only lasts for one round, and their damage scales poorly. You're probably better off casting Armor of Agathys or Hex since those two spells will, hopefully, last longer. But give Hellish Rebuke and Arms of Hadar to someone with 6 first level spell slots, and now they're amazing. Unless you're at the end of a long adventuring day where you have almost no resources left, you're going to be able to make use of those two spells a lot more than a Warlock would.

Sadly things don't get much better with Invocations. Warlocks know a painfully low number of Invocations until level 9. Up until then you're working with between 2 to 4 Invocations, which just isn't enough. To make it worse, a lot of the Invocations available to low level Warlocks are either super strong, like Agonizing Blast and Devil Sight, or are super niche, such as Eyes of the Rune Keeper and Beast Speech. Usually a Warlock is going to want an Invocation that has to do with their Pact, so really they have 3 Invocations to play with. Agonizing Blast and Devil's Sight further complicate the issue because they're so dang good. They're basically the Great Weapon Master/Sharpshooter of the Invocations. Yeah, technically you don't need them to succeed, but not taking them just makes you worse then a Warlock that takes them. Meaning you don't really get a "free" Invocation to play around with until level 7, at least not without hamstringing yourself.

And again, just like with spell slots, other classes benefit more from the Invocations then the Warlock does. Bards and Paladins can get easy access to what essentially amounts to a rapid fire Heavy Crossbow that deals Force damage, Abjuration Wizards can cast Mage Armor at will to fill their Ward after every encounter, Rogues can see in Magical Darkness to get advantage, Barbarians can get free Temp HP, the list goes on. And while Invocations aren't super strong on their own, when combined with another class they can be amazing. Heck, a Barbarian will get more out of False Life then a Warlock will, simply because Rage can turn that 8 Temp HP into 16 Temp HP thanks to resistances.

And finally, for the icing on the cake, Warlocks have almost nothing to look forward to after level 11. Once your spells are being cast at 5th level and you have 3 spell slots, there's basically nothing else for you. Sure you get Mystic Arcanum, but Mystic Arcanum is terrible. You get to cast one 6th level spell per Long Rest, but you can't upcast it and you can't change it out. Even if you gain another level in Warlock, you're not allowed to change your Mystic Arcanum like you are with your known spells. What you chose is what you get, so choose wisely. Your otherwordly patron features can be a pretty big hit or miss too, depending on what Patron you chose. Hurl Through Hell is really nice, but Dark Delirium and Create Thrall? Not so much, especially since by level 14 most creatures you meet are immune to fear and a lot are immune to charm.

EDIT: I have a house rule that has generally gotten rid of all the problems with the single classed Warlock I mentioned above, and its super simple. I give the Warlock one extra Invocation at level 5, and an extra spell slot at level 6. I've never had those two rules break a game before, and it actually brings the warlock into line with other Short Rest classes like the Monk. Instead of needing a short rest after every single encounter, they can go for 3 encounters before needing a short rest.

Ignimortis

2020-09-20, 06:11 AM

Dienekes

2020-09-20, 06:14 AM

Everyone has gone over the hexblade.

I’ll say my biggest other problem with it has less to do with the class and more to do with the short rest mechanic. From levels 2-10 you only get 2 spells to work with. Spread over the 2-3 encounters per short rest that’s half the game where you’re casting an average of less than one spell per encounter. Which means you’re just going to be spamming eldritch blast or whatever other cantrip you have for most the game.

Now balance-wise its fair. But fun-wise it’s lacking.

sithlordnergal

2020-09-20, 06:28 AM

1) Eldritch Blast should have never been a cantrip.
2) There are two sets of subclasses, which means none of the abilities offered are very good (unless we're talking Hexblade) — pacts and patrons. Add invocations on top, and it becomes a mess - because most invocations ALSO aren't very impactful, or come online super late.
3) Warlock is very front-loaded - you get the most of your stuff in 3 levels, and dipping for 1 or 2 is very good. It slopes off later on very quickly.

So how I'd fix it:
1) EB is a Warlock class feature that scales with Warlock levels. Agonizing Blast doesn't exist.
2) Hexblade doesn't exist, but! Pacts are now much more impactful. Pact of the Tome gives you Agonizing Blast, +1 spell known per level, rituals and so on. Pact of the Blade gives you CHA to attack and damage, as well as medium armor proficiency, and Extra Attack at level 6. Pact of the Chain, well...makes your familiar way better somehow, somewhat like Artificer's pets.
3) Should be already fixed with Hexblade and Agonizing Blast being gone, and EB scaling poorly in this case.

Ehhh, its not really going to fix the issues with the Warlock. They still lack spells per encounter for a majority of their time playing, and while having a free Agonizing Blast is very nice for Pact of the Tome, it doesn't fix the fact that you still have too few Invocations until level 9.

Ignimortis

2020-09-20, 06:33 AM

Ehhh, its not really going to fix the issues with the Warlock. They still lack spells per encounter for a majority of their time playing, and while having a free Agonizing Blast is very nice for Pact of the Tome, it doesn't fix the fact that you still have too few Invocations until level 9.

I don't have time or inclination for a full-on Warlock rewrite, but if I did, I would just make it something like a 3.5 warlock, with at-will casting from a very small "list".

sithlordnergal

2020-09-20, 07:14 AM

I don't have time or inclination for a full-on Warlock rewrite, but if I did, I would just make it something like a 3.5 warlock, with at-will casting from a very small "list".

Oh, just do what I do. I found giving the Warlock one extra Invocation at level 5, and an extra spell slot at level 6 fixes their resource problems. Keeping the spell slot at level 6 helps to balance multiclassing since you have to make a serious investment to get it, while the extra Invocation gives Warlocks a bit more flexibility and the ability to branch out into more flavorful invocations. The extra invocation also helps out Blade Pact Warlocks, since now they can have their Extra Attack, Improved Pact Weapon, and Eldritch Smite at level 6, while also having an Invocation for something fun.

Icewind

2020-09-20, 07:28 AM

As someone who plays Warlock quite a bit, and gets to frequently play even in tiers 3 and 4, warlock has a few very major issues when single-classing.

1. At low level, having only 2 spell slots a short rest feels really bad, even if you're getting frequent short rests... and if you're not getting short rests (either because your group refuses, your DM is running 1-encounter-days, or some encounters are disproportionately more difficult than others) it's even worse. This gets better at high levels - 3 or 4 slots makes things much more manageable, especially when you start factoring in Mystic Arcanum usages on top of those slots, but in Tiers 1 and 2 it feels awful. I played a level 10 Fiend Warlock in an encounter just a couple weeks ago, actually, against a powerful necromancer, and how that combat played out was me casting Wall of Fire to split the necromancer from part of his horde, me counterspelling a circle of death, and... using Eldritch Blast for the rest of the fight, because that was it - I had burned through ALL my spell slots in 1 round, and despite the threat level of the encounter, I had just as many resources for that fight as I had against a few Ropers we fought earlier, as unlike another caster I couldn't conserve resources earlier so I had more for the tougher fight. Eldritch Blast, admittedly, is way better than an average cantrip (when you have Agonizing Blast, at least), so when you're out of slots you're not useless, but it's not amazing unless you're multiclassing Sorcerer...

2. Warlock synergizes with other classes better than itself, past the first few levels. Sorcerer/Warlock still can get you access to 9th-tier spells, and it also lets you Eldritch (Agonizing) Blast -> Quickened Eldritch (Agonizing) Blast for single-target damage that's competitive with powerful martial characters - this requires you to invest fairly heavily into Sorcerer so you don't run out of points mid-fight, but then that multiclass has even more synergy if you have downtime in your adventuring day, since you can turn each short rest you have the time for into a partial sorcery point refund, replenishing and stockpiling resources for later encounters. Going Sorlock also gives you good action economy, because all Warlock really has for its bonus action is Hex (and Hexblade's Curse, if you went for that subclass, but Hexblade's Curse is extremely good even if you only have a single Warlock level so it still doesn't incentivize staying in the class), which really isn't worth concentrating on over other spells at mid and high levels, and just not doing anything with your bonus action tends to feel really bad.

As an even bigger drawback, single-classing Warlock doesn't give you versatility for your high-tier spells. You only get one spell for each Arcanum level, so you can't choose situational but extremely powerful spells like Plane Shift, unless you want that over consistent spells like Forcecage. Other full-casters can take both and choose which to use on a day-to-day basis. Plus, as a Warlock you don't even get extra 6th and 7th level spell slots at levels 19 and 20. Every other full caster does.

Then for Bladelocks, you're usually better off multiclassing into Paladin and taking advantage of Divine Smite (which can even stack with Eldritch Smite on the same hit, if you want to go that far) and Aura of Protection, if you're looking to focus more on melee than full-casting. Lifedrinker is a pretty solid invocation, but not compared to what you would get from Paladin - especially when you include things like Improved Divine Smite, which is basically equivalent to it. Multiclassing here is especially good because if you're going bladelock your best spells are probably going to be the lower-level ones anyway - things like Darkness.

3. The Warlock spell list tends to suck, outside of low level. Your best spell throughout all of Tiers 1 and 2 is usually Darkness - it's arguably even better than Shadow of Moil, given the duration. If Warlocks had access to powerful, exclusive magic - spells equivalent to stuff like Contingency, Simulacrum, Clone, Wish, Tenser's Transformation (for bladelocks), etc., it would feel a lot better to singleclass Warlock. As is, their high-tier spells are mostly lacking (outside of those that are available to most Arcane casters anyway, like Forcecage), and even at lower levels they don't even gain access to spells like Wall of Force, Animate Objects, or Polymorph (this one can be sort of gained with an invocation, but it's still only 1/long rest and it costs an invocation) - they just don't have access to the encounter-swinging spells the other casters can use. Warlock's best spells are mostly low-level... which encourages multiclassing out after you gain access to them.

Bobthewizard

2020-09-20, 07:56 AM

All of this excludes Hexblade, which is a powerful class and an overpowered dip.

I love tier 2 eldritch blast warlocks. Repelling blast is one of my favorite features in the game. It keeps me always thinking about positioning. Add in agonizing blast to keep your damage somewhat reasonable (though not spectacular) and lance of lethargy or grasp of Hadar and I think they are a lot of fun.

Spells need to be managed differently than other casters. You are primarily an archer with a little control. You cast two spells per short rest so you need to make them count. So you want long-acting concentration spells. Hold person, fear, hypnotic pattern, shadow of moil, summon greater demon, sickening radiance, and banishment are all great. I love long-acting utility spells that upcast well - invisibility and fly. You also need to take advantage of replacing spells as you level up. You want as many spells as possible at your highest level. Well, there aren't many great 5th level spells on the list so a lot of 4th level spells are good. But at levels 5-8, with adequate rests, warlocks can cast more of their highest levels spells each day than other casters. By level 7, you have the invocations you really wanted for the build.

So now the downsides. Tier 1 is hard. You have a bad AC and eldritch blast isn't much better than a crossbow. Repelling with just one ray isn't as much fun. Your spell slots are too valuable to use on defense, so you're just very squishy. Even adding sorcerer makes you much tougher, for shield and 1st level slots. Paladin or fighter is required for non-hexblade blade pacts and would even help a blasting warlock.

Tiers 3 and 4, Mystic Arcanum doesn't keep up with bards, sorcerers and wizards and damage falls behind most martials. You have the best invocations already. Repelling blast's 30' per round is fun, but not as useful as it was in tier 2 since more opponents can counter it. The class is still playable, though. Three level 5 slots per short rest is pretty powerful. It's just usually more powerful to multiclass. The level 14 abilities and level 15 invocations are nice but not strong enough to keep more people in the class longer.

intregus

2020-09-20, 08:15 AM

Everyone has already done a great job explaining why and how the class falls,short/is better as a MC.

Here are some of my initial thoughts on how to fix it to make it more like 3.X

Basic premise/goal: Instead of being a really good MC go the opposite route, make it like the paladin class where theres always a good reason to stay in the class depending on what you want for your character, or full casters trying to reach lvl 9 spells.

1. Make eldritch blast a warlock class feature that gets another blast at WL 5 and 11.
2. Create more invocations that modify EB or allow you to use it in new/different ways. Gate these with min lvl requirements depending on how strong they are.
3. Don't use short rest spell slots lean hard into at will casting through invocations. How to do this effectively I'm not 100% sure on, maybe allow non damaging spells that don't require saves(utility spells) to be at will a full spell level behind full casters. For example allow mage armor to be chosen as an at will spell at WL lvl 3, darkness at WL lvl 5 etc. And maybe these at will spells only go through 3rd lvl spells? IDK just an idea.
4. Grant more invocations per level.
5. Make the class int based (granted this isn't a big deal to keep it cha either)
6. I'm not sure if you need different pacts though. I think you might be able to break out each pact ability into invocations since you'll be getting a lot more.
7. Make your patron and the abilities they grant you more impactfull and flavorful, this is your subclass essentially.

That's what I got as a start.

LudicSavant

2020-09-20, 08:18 AM

Well that is a very good explanation for the dip popularity but why do you think that warlock isn't popular as a primary class? Might it be because the later level abilities are poor or do you have other opinions?

I find Warlocks get along fine as a primary class. An optimizer can make a good single-class Warlock at all tiers of play, and I see them played effectively on a regular basis. Like, try comparing an optimized single-classed Hexblade to an optimized Fighter, they do quite well for themselves.

They are just a really attractive dip, too. A too-attractive dip, in the Hexblade's case.

stoutstien

2020-09-20, 08:33 AM

IMO warlocks are just fine as as a single class. The whole warlock dip for power isn't nearly as prevalent as discussed on forums like this one.

If I had to change anything it would be to turn EB into a class feature vs a cantrip just because it's such a large part of the core identity of the class and I just dislike feature tax.

Pex

2020-09-20, 08:36 AM

I would have preferred it be more like the 3E version. I'd have preferred it be all and only about the invocations and Patron features, no spells. It would get more invocations than it has now, maybe start with two and get another one every other level. It would have at will powers, buffs to Eldritch Blast -accepted it scales with Warlock level not character level, buff powers, and short rest refresh powers.

Segev

2020-09-20, 11:02 AM

I’ll try to dig it up when I’m not on my phone, but I have a thread in the home brew section where I tried to remake the Hexblade as a combination of spells, invocations, and minor changes to the Warlock spell list, so it wouldn’t be a Patron and would be less dip-friendly, while still letting a would-be bladepact warlock get everything (and potentially more) that the patron granted.

diplomancer

2020-09-20, 12:24 PM

There should be more Warlock-exclusive spells with good upcasting.

Sorinth

2020-09-20, 12:28 PM

Personally I find that design wise they got Warlock mostly right.
- It's the only full spellcasters that is actually somewhat balanced vs martials
- They offer a number of unique features/abilities
- They offer a variety of different playstyles

That said there are some problems. The mental stat feels wrong for certain builds (This is somewhat a problem throughout 5e). Charisma makes sense if the Patron has unlocked a power within you and it's now completely up to the warlock to harness that power through force of will similar to how a Sorceror uses Charisma to harness a power within. But on the flip side a force of will is often wisdom if you go by saving throws, and if the Patron is actually supplying the power then Con actually makes a lot of sense since it's how much power you can safely handle. The fluff of many warlocks is of being delvers of ancient knowledge would actually imply Int as the base.

The other issue is that the Pact options seem like it should actually come online at level 1 both from a mechanics perspective and from a fluff one. The very name Pact implies this is an aspect of the deal you made, if you for example traded your soul for skill with the blade as Pact of the Blade suggests, then it doesn't make much sense to have nothing Gish related until level 3, same goes for Chain and Tome. It makes way more sense that they should get abilities based on the deal/pact they made right away. Mechanics wise the end result is that you play one style from levels 1-2 and then kind of switch to your actual desired playstyle at level 3. This is especially noticeable when you want to be a Gish, and it's why the "fix" was to put all the Gish related features into Hexblade at level 1.

So in terms of changes, you select both your Patron and Pact at level 1, to balance things a bit move the Level 1 Patron feature to level 3 so that you only get the Expanded Spell List from selecting the Patron at level 1. Then move a bunch of the gish stuff from Hexblade into Pact of the Blade.

This doesn't solve your dip problem, but I also don't consider that a problem to begin with. If you really want to help with that then switching from Cha to Int as the spellcasting stat would solve a lot of issues. It would open up the Wizard/Warlock dips, but that seems less powerful then something like Paladin. Not sure about Warlock/Artificer, I'd have to think on it but I doubt it would be problematic.

Petrocorus

2020-09-20, 01:40 PM

I concur with most of what has been said so far.

I advocate too for moving Hex Warrior to the Pact of the Blade. It would fix both the overpower and over-dippability of the Hexblade and the underpower and need for MCing of the PotBlade.

Hexblade would already be on the upper side of the patrons without it and quite dippable thanks to Shield and the Curse (and short rest smite slots).
And with Hex Warrior, the non-Hexblade bladelocks would be able to do their jobs without dipping Fighter or Paladin.

Making EB and AB class features would also help. It would decrease the interest of the Warlock as a dip and free one of his Invocation, since AB is basically an Invocation tax for any Warlock not optimized for melee.

I personally liked the Warlock in 3.5, even if its damage were underpowered. I like the at-will casting route of the Invocations.
And in 5E, i've seen that an imaginative Warlock can make really good use of this. MoMF can cause a lot of damage in the hand of a skilled player.
Feature that can be powerful depending on the skills of the player is exactly what i like for the Warlock and i'd want to see more of this rather than the stupid 1x/day spell Invocations.

Segev

2020-09-20, 01:56 PM

As promised, here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers) is the attempt I made at revamping the Hexblade. I should probably go in and clean it up into something that doesn't have a lot of discussion going on with it.

HappyDaze

2020-09-20, 02:01 PM

The biggest problem I see is that Warlock doesn't work like all of the other spellcasting classes. The solution I would prefer is not to change the Warlock, but to change the others so that they are each as distinct from one another.

Sorinth

2020-09-20, 02:10 PM

I concur with most of what has been said so far.

I advocate too for moving Hex Warrior to the Pact of the Blade. It would fix both the overpower and over-dippability of the Hexblade and the underpower and need for MCing of the PotBlade.

The problem with just moving Hex Warrior to pact of the blade is that a player who wants to be a warlock gish spends two levels not being a gish.

A standard warlock concept would be the warrior who makes a deal with the patron to become a super fighter. But you can't actually play that character as a straight warlock because the first two levels you don't have proficiency in good weapons/armor, and you are MAD for those levels but then become SAD which means if you dump say Strength because you will be SAD you become really bad those first levels at being the character you want.

If you really think Hexblade dips are a problem, then the answer is to fix the MADness of the other gish classes. Personally I'd actually favour making ability scores less relevant as a whole and making proficiency the main aspect of a characters bonuses.

Ashrym

2020-09-20, 02:36 PM

I prefer straight class. Multi-classing runs into the issue of delayed access to higher level abilities while leveling compared to a straight class.

It is an attractive splash but if that's an issue at the table the easiest fix is to disallow that optional rule. ;-)

Tier 1 spell casters are all spamming cantrips. Pact magic is very competitive.

Tier 2 standard spell casting has enough slots to exceed pact magic but pact magic is still casting more of the highest level spells and slots over the day. The biggest issue here is the warlock cannot manage slots for the same type of nova. The biggest advantage is at-will SLA invocations or additional EB enhancements.

Tiers 3 and 4 aren't really different from tier 2 -- the pact magic slots increase and arcanum are gained while standard casting gains more slots and spells. This still tends to give more spells to standard casters, an average higher level of spell for the warlock, and the main benefit in invocations (including EB enhancements).

Warlocks are limited in how slots are spent compared to most major spell casters. They are great for at-will abilities. Play their strengths instead of looking at the greener grass because if that's what a player wants it's readily available in other classes.

Front loading increases the likelihood of splash advantage. Hex blade makes that obvious. Abilities that apply proficiency bonus instead of ability score are designed to facilitate multi-classing.

If I were to change anything, it would be to adjust the levels hex blade apply CHA bonus to weapons (pushing back the splash incentive), change eldritch blast to an invocation (which are class level based instead of character level based) and add an extra invocation to cover it (also better for non-EB spammers), and clarify that a lower level spell in a higher level slot is permitted for arcanum.

Segev

2020-09-20, 02:38 PM

cutlery

2020-09-20, 02:51 PM

Int casting.

Eldritch blast as a class feature rather than a standard cantrip; so you need 5/11/17 levels in warlock to get the extra beams.

Add one more skill choice (so, three instead of two).

Remove cha to hit/damage from hexblade (or grant it much later, like at level 6).

Boom - fixed.

If you really think Hexblade dips are a problem, then the answer is to fix the MADness of the other gish classes.

Things should progress away from SAD for classes and builds that can excel at melee, ranged, and spell blaster damage.

I'd require paladins use non-finesse weapons to apply smite, for one, and tie number of uses per long rest to paladin levels.

The flexibility of having melee and spell options is its own reward, it doesn't need to be made easier by tying both to a single attribute.

Jason

2020-09-20, 02:58 PM

cutlery

2020-09-20, 03:01 PM

Make the patron a full-on NPC constantly asking the Warlock to forward it's agenda, as agreed. Once your players realize that becoming a Warlock means dealing with a powerful patron always cajoling you it will become much less attractive as a dip.

They moved away from that with paladins, and for good reason.

A set of class features that depends on or can be used as reason to curtail party activities is a mistake; as OOTS neatly summarized: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

Petrocorus

2020-09-20, 03:06 PM

The problem with just moving Hex Warrior to pact of the blade is that a player who wants to be a warlock gish spends two levels not being a gish.

A standard warlock concept would be the warrior who makes a deal with the patron to become a super fighter. But you can't actually play that character as a straight warlock because the first two levels you don't have proficiency in good weapons/armor, and you are MAD for those levels but then become SAD which means if you dump say Strength because you will be SAD you become really bad those first levels at being the character you want.

If you really think Hexblade dips are a problem, then the answer is to fix the MADness of the other gish classes. Personally I'd actually favour making ability scores less relevant as a whole and making proficiency the main aspect of a characters bonuses.

This is true. But this is a problem that doesn't bother me.
First, the level 1 and 2 are more or less a tutorial with a quite fast progression. Many official campaign start at level 3.
Two, this is not the only class to be gimped at first levels. This is basically a standard for arcane casters. A Wizard at level 1 has 3 spells per day, 6 spells known, one of both will probably be used for Mage Armor. He'll spent most of his time casting Fire Bolt. Even warrior types don't have their combat feats and lack their fanciest features (that usually comes at level 2 and 3). So, the Warlock won't be able to melee at level 1 and will have to play a shooter for two levels and uses his 1 spell per rest (so about 3 per day like the Wizard if you follow the guideline).

And of course there's the Hexblade, which never should have seen print.
I must resist the urge to rant once again about the habits of the writers to fix something by publishing another thing.

Sorinth

2020-09-20, 03:39 PM

This is true. But this is a problem that doesn't bother me.
First, the level 1 and 2 are more or less a tutorial with a quite fast progression. Many official campaign start at level 3.
Two, this is not the only class to be gimped at first levels. This is basically a standard for arcane casters. A Wizard at level 1 has 3 spells per day, 6 spells known, one of both will probably be used for Mage Armor. He'll spent most of his time casting Fire Bolt. Even warrior types don't have their combat feats and lack their fanciest features (that usually comes at level 2 and 3). So, the Warlock won't be able to melee at level 1 and will have to play a shooter for two levels and uses his 1 spell per rest (so about 3 per day like the Wizard if you follow the guideline).

A wizard casting firebolt most of the time is still the same play style, he's sitting at range casting spells, the only thing that changes is the power of those spells. Same for martials, even without their signature feature they still play the same role. With the gish warlock it's different, they can't play that frontline role unless they have the armour/weapon proficiencies, so they have to be at the back line casting spells. It's not a case of being weak it's a case of playing a different role

And fluff wise that makes little sense in most cases. For example, I make a former soldier who made a pact on the battlefield to gain enough power to survive and get home to his loved ones. Yet I don't fight like a soldier until level 3? It doesn't make sense, I should have the mundane stuff immediately and play like a normal warrior and with time start gaining these magic powers that I bargained for.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-20, 03:40 PM

There should be more Warlock-exclusive spells with good upcasting. Yes.
Other than that good idea, INT caster, medium armor at level 3 with Pact of Blade (we can argue about shields) and I'd go for one more invocation late game.

EB as a cantrip still works, but if it's a class feature and still scales up at levels 5, 11, and 17, that might be a good fix.

But, going to the original idea of INT caster means a closer look at how the exploits of Wiz/Warlock pans out.

Lord Raziere

2020-09-20, 03:54 PM

The biggest problem with warlock design in my opinion is that hexblade is too flavorfully bound to the death thing and I wish that feature was more generic so that I could flavor a gish in more ways mostly just the 6th level ghost feature that throws things off for me. though the idea of making some of its features more universal to the class is probably the better one.

Petrocorus

2020-09-20, 08:44 PM

Or "fix" something that didn't need a fix.
This i'm not sure. What are you referring to?

A wizard casting firebolt most of the time is still the same play style, he's sitting at range casting spells, the only thing that changes is the power of those spells. Same for martials, even without their signature feature they still play the same role. With the gish warlock it's different, they can't play that frontline role unless they have the armour/weapon proficiencies, so they have to be at the back line casting spells. It's not a case of being weak it's a case of playing a different role

And fluff wise that makes little sense in most cases. For example, I make a former soldier who made a pact on the battlefield to gain enough power to survive and get home to his loved ones. Yet I don't fight like a soldier until level 3?
And as i said, it is true, and doesn't bother me. Much less than having one kind of Warlock being so much better than the others, and also seeing so many builds with 1 or 2 lvl Hexblade dip.
And fluffwise, it doesn't make sense to have so many Pally, Bard and Sorcerer making pact with a death entity.

It doesn't make sense, I should have the mundane stuff immediately and play like a normal warrior and with time start gaining these magic powers that I bargained for.
But that would redefine the whole class, or keep one patron clearly better than the other ones both for dipping and for going BladePact.

Segev

2020-09-21, 12:18 AM

For example, I make a former soldier who made a pact on the battlefield to gain enough power to survive and get home to his loved ones. Yet I don't fight like a soldier until level 3? It doesn't make sense, I should have the mundane stuff immediately and play like a normal warrior and with time start gaining these magic powers that I bargained for.

Not going to comment on the "soldier who made a pact on the battlefield" directly, at first, here, but just on the concept you're discussing in general: A warlock isn't a character who learns his magic and powers through study and training. He might master them that way, but he gets his powers from his Patron. So a Warlock who bargained for martial prowess would get it magically imbued into him, not get trained in it. A warlock who bargains for magic gets magic right away.

If you want to be a soldier who has soldier-skills and "fights like a soldier" from level 1, you probably want to consider multiclassing. Or that, maybe, he wasn't a very well-trained soldier at all. A warlock can use a spear and wear leather armor, after all. Perfect for a conscript thrown into battle after a couple of weeks of drilling on following a noble officer's orders. He'd have been a basic bandit, thug, or commoner (maybe with a different weapon to match his regiment) if he hadn't made his pact and been imbued with the limited magical powers a first-level Warlock gets.

Now, the issue is that the Pact of the Blade is all about making a single-class gish out of the Warlock, and it just doesn't do the job by itself. Hence the Hexblade Patron (which is dumb, in my opinion), and my attempt to fix it by changing its primary features into spells and invocations, leaving the Patron open to be anything you want and any Patron able to grant "the power to fight" to their Warlocks.

Christew

2020-09-21, 12:46 AM

I'll be honest, the Warlock was a dip class long before Hexblade came out.

As someone who plays Warlock quite a bit, and gets to frequently play even in tiers 3 and 4, warlock has a few very major issues when single-classing.

I find Warlocks get along fine as a primary class. An optimizer can make a good single-class Warlock at all tiers of play, and I see them played effectively on a regular basis. Like, try comparing an optimized single-classed Hexblade to an optimized Fighter, they do quite well for themselves.

They are just a really attractive dip, too. A too-attractive dip, in the Hexblade's case.
Some truly inspired Warlock breakdowns in this thread, kudos all.

Dip-wise: Hexblade is straight broken, but Warlock 1&2 were always compelling dips. Hex/Eldritch Blast/Invocations is a solid kit for minimal investment.

Solo-wise: While there are some bumps along the way, I tend to agree that the math and table experience point to Warlock being just fine.

Edea

2020-09-21, 02:05 AM

I'd change the following things about the Warlock:
Indicate quite clearly that Flexible Casting cannot be used with Pact Magic spell slots.
Make eldritch blast a warlock level-scaling class feature instead of a cantrip, and explicitly call out that eldritch blast's not subject to paramagical crap like globes of invulnerability or antimagic fields.
Alter Hexblade and Pact of the Blade (obvs.):

Pact of the Blade: add proficiencies here (you can argue which ones, medium armor/shield/martial weapon/etc.). This now happens at the same level the Valor Bard.
Hexblade Expanded Spells:
1st - sleep, wrathful smite
3rd - blindness/deafness, branding smite
5th - blinding smite, blink
7th - freedom of movement, staggering smite
9th - banishing smite, contagionHexblade's Curse: The damage bonus equals half your Warlock level and can only be applied to one damage roll per turn.
Hex Warrior: Remove it.

Ashrym

2020-09-21, 09:01 AM

cutlery

2020-09-21, 09:25 AM

Dienekes

2020-09-21, 09:31 AM

The issue with eldritch blast being a class feature is it forces EB onto the character and player. Not every concept should have it tacked on.

That's why making it a cantrip was better than a class feature, and why making it an invocation works to slow down multi-classing abuse.

Not every warlock needs to spam EB. ;-)

While completely true, not every warlock needs to spam it, the rest of the features pretty strongly point you in that direction. You don’t have enough spell slots to act like a full caster until 11. You’re going to be spamming your cantrips a lot. And EB is pretty definitively the most useful of the lot. Especially with invocations.

Which isn’t to say you won’t have fun without it. You’ll just be mathematically less useful. Unless you specifically go Hexblade or we drastically change up the class.

Though that does bring up the notion of changing the class. A part of me thinks the design would be improved by having the subclass chosen at level 3 and the pact chosen at 1. With the Pact getting more influence on your standard play style. Blade makes you a frontline Warlock with more armor and weapon proficiencies and since it’s level 1 you could even do weird things like increase hit die size. Tome means you’re the blaster archetype. You get Eldritch Blast, could make the class Int dependent instead of Cha. And Chain gets reworked into being an actual minion focused build.

If the designers were particularly good, the subclasses would then be written in a way that the abilities are pact neutral to be used effectively with any of them. Hexblade would probably get the axe and get replaced with some kind of more necromantic focused version that works whether your weapon, spells, or pet killed the target.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 09:43 AM

Though that does bring up the notion of changing the class. A part of me thinks the design would be improved by having the subclass chosen at level 3 and the pact chosen at 1. With the Pact getting more influence on your standard play style. Blade makes you a frontline Warlock with more armor and weapon proficiencies and since it’s level 1 you could even do weird things like increase hit die size. Tome means you’re the blaster archetype. You get Eldritch Blast, could make the class Int dependent instead of Cha. And Chain gets reworked into being an actual minion focused build.

If the designers were particularly good, the subclasses would then be written in a way that the abilities are pact neutral to be used effectively with any of them. Hexblade would probably get the axe and get replaced with some kind of more necromantic focused version that works whether your weapon, spells, or pet killed the target.

That's a really cool idea that doesn't really detract from how flexible the class is.

I'd even go a bit further and tweak the spell lists by pact; you could omit EB for blade pact, for example (though there would need to be some other way to keep damage relevant - EB+AB with hex on target (easily set up the same round you cast EB) can manage 43.5 damage on average, assuming all bolt hit at level 17.

A bladepact warlock with life drinker and thirsting blade (and also using hex) can manage, with a greatsword (if hexblade) 40.5 damage; true they can up that to 52.5 on the second round with hexblade's curse; but hexblade's curse kicks up the blaster to 67.5 damage; GWM isn't really a factor as the accuracy hit is real (and varies in severity based on armor class, if we really model it), PAM conflicts with bonus actions and wouldn't be useful until round 3, etc (also, above numbers would be for a glaive, not a greatsword, so dpr for the first few rounds would be a couple points lower).

Anyway - EB+AB is the best cantrip there is, but it isn't the best damage option there is (plain old sneak attack with a nonmagical shortsword will also manage 43.5 damage, and doesn't require hex to do it - and can also work with SCAG cantrips for ~13.5 more damage at 17, which would be a dpr loss for the melee blade lock).

I'm 100% ok with eldritch blast not being something all warlocks must use all the time, but they need some other decent at will damage source for that to be the case; ideally one that doesn't cost 3 invocations and specific pacts and patrons to turn on.

LudicSavant

2020-09-21, 09:43 AM

Pact of the Blade: add proficiencies here (you can argue which ones, medium armor/shield/martial weapon/etc.). This now happens at the same level the Valor Bard.
Hexblade Expanded Spells:
1st - sleep, wrathful smite
3rd - blindness/deafness, branding smite
5th - blinding smite, blink
7th - freedom of movement, staggering smite
9th - banishing smite, contagionHexblade's Curse: The damage bonus equals half your Warlock level and can only be applied to one damage roll per turn.
Hex Warrior: Remove it.

Like the removal of Shield from the spell list and decoupling HBC from Proficiency scaling.

How about adding Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade? Hear me out here: One of the issues faced by pre-Hexblade Bladelocks was that Tomelock was sitting right there, picking up Cha-based Shillelagh/Booming Blade if they wanted to hit things.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 09:51 AM

Like the removal of Shield from the spell list and decoupling HBC from Proficiency scaling.

How about adding Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade? Hear me out here: One of the issues faced by pre-Hexblade Bladelocks was that Tomelock was sitting right there, picking up Cha-based Shillelagh/Booming Blade if they wanted to hit things.

If that kept pacts at level 3 at least it would cut down on one level dips for both cha to hit/damage and medium armor and shield proficiencies.

I'd probably suggest making similar changes to other subclasses that grant heavy or medium armor proficiency (like war domain cleric), as that sort of breaks the multiclass bonus proficiencies scheme and weirdly incentivizes one level dips just for those proficiencies.

Ashrym

2020-09-21, 09:54 AM

They don't have to use if they they don't want to; it would simply be a bonus cantrip like the arcane trickster and illusionist get.

Not taking it (and agonizing blast) even when you plan to use melee is a mistake in most cases, given a warlock's small number of spell slots.

How is forcing as a class feature better than allowing it as an invocation?

While completely true, not every warlock needs to spam it, the rest of the features pretty strongly point you in that direction. You don’t have enough spell slots to act like a full caster until 11. You’re going to be spamming your cantrips a lot. And EB is pretty definitively the most useful of the lot. Especially with invocations.

Which isn’t to say you won’t have fun without it. You’ll just be mathematically less useful. Unless you specifically go Hexblade or we drastically change up the class.

Though that does bring up the notion of changing the class. A part of me thinks the design would be improved by having the subclass chosen at level 3 and the pact chosen at 1. With the Pact getting more influence on your standard play style. Blade makes you a frontline Warlock with more armor and weapon proficiencies and since it’s level 1 you could even do weird things like increase hit die size. Tome means you’re the blaster archetype. You get Eldritch Blast, could make the class Int dependent instead of Cha. And Chain gets reworked into being an actual minion focused build.

If the designers were particularly good, the subclasses would then be written in a way that the abilities are pact neutral to be used effectively with any of them. Hexblade would probably get the axe and get replaced with some kind of more necromantic focused version that works whether your weapon, spells, or pet killed the target.

The rest of the features point to cantrips or weapon attacks. They don't have to be EB. EB is the choice because of invocations to enhance it (primarily agonizing blast).

The class features don't make EB that great. The enhancements do. Doesn't it make sense that the entire ability could start and end as an invocation chain instead of start as a class ability but end in an invocation chain?

The OP asked what changes we would make. I wouldn't change EB from optional to required regardless of how useful it might be to typical builds. Especially when EB as an invocation solves the splash complaint and is still available or optional.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 09:59 AM

How is forcing as a class feature better than allowing it as an invocation?

The same way sneak attack is a class feature. That's the default way for rogues to deal damage when they're out of other things to do in combat. EB is the default way for warlocks to deal damage when they are out of slots.

You can do less damage with a greater investment of invocations with melee - that's not good, because even EB+AB just isn't that amazing compared to the sorts of DPR others can put out.

The battlefield control invocations are cool, but not required. EB and AB ought to just be baseline; and removing one invocation gained at level 2 would compensate for it. Warlocks would still be able to build for melee, but would be less able to built for obsolescence, as they'd always have EB/AB - and ideally by making them class features the added bolt scaling for eldritch blast could be built into class progression rather than something everyone gets; which is the case with it as a standard cantrip.

Vogie

2020-09-21, 11:03 AM

I also believe it's the best designed of the classes.

The only issues I'd've liked them to address out of the gate are:

access to medium armor. This could have been done with invocations (such as the Eldritch Armor) or other internal mechanics
Gating Eldritch Blast. I'd also make it a class feature, but I'd also make sure that both the Lifedrinker and Agonizing Blast were only available at level 8, similar to Clerics.
Provide better spells. Long duration, multifunction and concentration-based spells work the best for Warlocks, when they are unneeded for any other class.

With the mechanical upgrades in XGtE, if they were going to really change the warlock for 6e, I'd also have them based off of hexes and curses, and then interacting therein. The warlock would have a limited number of "spell slots", and then also a limited number of hexes per rest.

Ironically, that is also the perfect way to make the warlock its own thing. For example, a melee warlock could curse a target that gives it something like the Armor of Hexes effect, a support warlock could curse the target so their allies heal when attacking it, blaster locks can have things more like the existing hex or hexblade's curse effects. Then, building in more interactions between the warlock and the hexed target, similar to the space explored in Maddening Hex and Relentless Hex, could truly make a wonderful class.

Petrocorus

2020-09-21, 11:16 AM

How about adding Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade? Hear me out here: One of the issues faced by pre-Hexblade Bladelocks was that Tomelock was sitting right there, picking up Cha-based Shillelagh/Booming Blade if they wanted to hit things.

I concur. Before Hexblade, a Tomelock could do better melee than a Bladelock, and still be a better caster.
And the EK's weapon bond is better than the PotB as it is now for most practical purposes.

People keep saying that making the Bladelock SAD is too good compared to other classes, but i don't see this.
Fighter is already SAD, even the EK can be quite SAD and could be completely SAD if it were not for the imposed school choice.
Paladin and melee Bard are MAD, but they have many other features. The Valor/Sword Bard is a full caster and a good skillmonkey even before getting melee options and the Paladin can dump Dex and has features that make him very tough and one of the best damage dealers.
The Bladesinger is MAD, but all Wizard need high Dex (for their AC) and he's still mostly a Wizard. At high levels he'll focus on spells and be quite SAD.
Rogue are SAD, so are Druids to a large degree, and Clerics can be. Sorcerers are no more MAD than Wizard.
I'll take the Monk and the Barbarian to a degree are MAD, and i won't talk about the Ranger.

So making the Bladelock SADder, while still requiring a decent Dex (and Con obviously) is really not that an issue to my mind.

If the designers were particularly good, the subclasses would then be written in a way that the abilities are pact neutral to be used effectively with any of them.
I agree with this and i think this was the original intent. But they mess this up with the PotB and then mess it even more by trying to "fix" it by publishing the Hexblade.
You don't fix a Pact with a Patron. The very point of the Warlock is to be highly customizable by allowing many combo of Pact and Patron, with Invocation for more customization.

How is forcing as a class feature better than allowing it as an invocation?

It's giving you for free a cantrip and an Invoc you're very probably going to take anyway. And that frees you one slot of each to do more orginal stuffs.
As it is now, it basically is a resource tax on most Warlock builds. And the Warlock certainly would need a few more Invocations.

Segev

2020-09-21, 11:28 AM

I could be persuaded to making eldritch blast a class feature, but I'm not sold on it.

As to why that's "better" than making it an invocation: Invocations are expensive, and not something you get before level 2.

The reason Pacts are level 3 and Invocations are level 2 is precisely to reduce dipping. A one-level dip for an invocation or a pact would be very strong. Pacts don't scale much with level, so getting one at level 1 of Warlock and then running something else leaves your Pact choice about as powerful as a Warlock 20's, unless the Warlock 20 spent Invocations on improving it. And not every Warlock is focused enough on the Pact to do that.

I honestly think eldritch blast is fine as-is, and that if you want to do something with Invocations to encourage diversity in cantrip choice, the better approach is to make a few more Invocations that modify other cantrips.

Immolation
Prerequisite: Must know fire bolt. Must be a 5th level Warlock.
When a target is hit by your fire bolt spell, he catches on fire. Each round at the end of his turn, he must make a Dexterity saving throw or suffer the damage again at one fewer die than he took the round prior. He can gain advantage on this check if he spent his action prone and rolling around trying to beat out the fire. Complete immersion in water ends this effect immediately.

Wildfire
Prerequisite: Must know create bonfire.
While you Concentrate on create bonfire, each round as your action you may cause it to spread. Choose a point of origin for a new five-foot cube on the face of one of the existing ones, and expand the area into that new cube. When the spell ends, the whole area extinguishes (though any fire not maintained by the spell persists).

Driving Plague
Prerequisite: Must know infestation.
When you cast infestation, you may roll a number of d4s to determine the direction of movement equal to the number of d6s of damage you roll, and choose which ones to apply and in what order. Each die applied forces him to move another five feet.

Noxious Cloud
Prerequisite: Must know poison spray. Must be a 3rd level Warlock.
When you cast poison spray you may choose to affect a sphere centered on you with a 10 foot radius. You are not affected.

patchyman

2020-09-21, 11:33 AM

IMO warlocks are just fine as as a single class. The whole warlock dip for power isn't nearly as prevalent as discussed on forums like this one.

I’m toying with a house rule to make the invocations that allow you to cast a non-warlock spell once per day while using a spell slot more attractive: reduce the level requirement of the invocation by 2.

I.e. A warlock can take Mire of the Mind at level 3, allowing them to cast Slow (a third level spell) once per day using a spell slot.

I’m hoping that this will (1) encourage players to take invocations that otherwise feel weak; (2) break open “traditional” builds by encouraging new warlock builds; (3) really sell the flavour of the class - patrons give the character power that no other character gets (slow at 3rd level, conjure elemental at 7th level) without overshadowing the other classes.

I feel this is balanced because it costs a limited resource (invocations) and it is more limited than a spell slot (once per day, a single spell, and none of the spells are really game changers). It does require policing the 5 MWD though (which hey, is also good for warlocks).

Note: I don’t allow multiclassing in my games.

Asisreo1

2020-09-21, 11:57 AM

Warlocks are basically one of the best Gish classes even before Hexblade.

If you're playing a Gish, you don't really need your spellcasting stat to be amazing. You can lean into dex or str with pact of the blade. Charisma can be your tertiary ability behind attack stat and Con.

Most of your spells can be one-and-done spells in a fight like Hex or Hellish Rebuke.

A dex + Mage Armor Warlock should have enough AC to compete with most rogues, monks, and Barbarians with a AC 16 to start. They also get spells to help like Fiendish Vigor (which is basically 6 additional HP you can re-apply) and Armor of Agathys. They also have control spells like their tentacle line to adjust.

Nothing quite beats a melee warlock with witch's sight and darkness attached to them, though. It's amazing just how disruptive a single darkness spell can be to enemies when it doesn't effect you. Add spells like Fly, Mirror Image, etc and your Gish warlock will look extremely cool even compared to his Fighter, Barbarian, and Rogue brethren.

People don't talk about it often, but at level 7 and level 9, no matter how many short or long rests your party takes, the warlock will always have 1 more high-level spell castable (with the exception of sorcerer).

A wizard gets 1 4-th level spell at level 7 with no short rests, a warlock gets 2. A wizard gets 2 4th-level spells at level 7 with 1 short rest, a warlock gets 4.

It's also very weird how having few Short Rests. Either 2 things are happening if they don't need a short rest. Either the entire party except the warlock is a sorcerer or you the party never really needed more warlock spells because the day was never challenging enough to warrant them.

Edea

2020-09-21, 12:10 PM

Like the removal of Shield from the spell list and decoupling HBC from Proficiency scaling.

How about adding Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade? Hear me out here: One of the issues faced by pre-Hexblade Bladelocks was that Tomelock was sitting right there, picking up Cha-based Shillelagh/Booming Blade if they wanted to hit things.

That's true. I almost feel like I'd rather make the "Cha-to-attack-and-damage for your weapon attacks" part of an Invocation that requires the Blade pact (so essentially a variant of Agonizing Blast). Should it just be pact-default, though?

Ashrym

2020-09-21, 12:29 PM

The same way sneak attack is a class feature. That's the default way for rogues to deal damage when they're out of other things to do in combat. EB is the default way for warlocks to deal damage when they are out of slots.

You can do less damage with a greater investment of invocations with melee - that's not good, because even EB+AB just isn't that amazing compared to the sorts of DPR others can put out.

The battlefield control invocations are cool, but not required. EB and AB ought to just be baseline; and removing one invocation gained at level 2 would compensate for it. Warlocks would still be able to build for melee, but would be less able to built for obsolescence, as they'd always have EB/AB - and ideally by making them class features the added bolt scaling for eldritch blast could be built into class progression rather than something everyone gets; which is the case with it as a standard cantrip.

So are you saying it's not to guard against dipping so much as you believe EB should be a defining feature of the class? If so I can understand that point of view but it still contradicts the melee Gish in my mind.

Making EB a cantrip in the first place follows that reasoning. As an invocation EB can still do everything you want for the character without requiring it for others. That's a better design overall, IMO.

It's giving you for free a cantrip and an Invoc you're very probably going to take anyway. And that frees you one slot of each to do more orginal stuffs.
As it is now, it basically is a resource tax on most Warlock builds. And the Warlock certainly would need a few more Invocations.

A free cantrip that's not needed or wanted doesn't make it better.

As I mentioned earlier, making it an invocation and adding another invocation available at 1st level keeps EB as free as it is now but cuts the dipping out because it's using warlock levels instead of character levels as the invocation. This solution helps non-EB spammers because they are up 2 invocations over spammers with the extra free invocation and not needing agonizing blast.

If a person is going to make a change it should support more builds instead of supporting more railroading into EB.

That's true. I almost feel like I'd rather make the "Cha-to-attack-and-damage for your weapon attacks" part of an Invocation that requires the Blade pact (so essentially a variant of Agonizing Blast). Should it just be pact-default, though?

I could support this change.

Christew

2020-09-21, 12:44 PM

That's true. I almost feel like I'd rather make the "Cha-to-attack-and-damage for your weapon attacks" part of an Invocation that requires the Blade pact (so essentially a variant of Agonizing Blast). Should it just be pact-default, though?
An interesting question. What would give me pause on making it a separate invocation would be the existing invocation taxes (Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker, and the less required Eldritch Smite and Improved Pact Weapon) on keeping up as a melee Warlock.

Maybe fold it in to Improved Pact Weapon (though that's already kind of a cluttered one).

Asisreo1

2020-09-21, 12:47 PM

Petrocorus

2020-09-21, 01:45 PM

A free cantrip that's not needed or wanted doesn't make it better.

Many melee Warlock also take it to get a range option, even if they don't take AB.

As I mentioned earlier, making it an invocation and adding another invocation available at 1st level keeps EB as free as it is now but cuts the dipping out because it's using warlock levels instead of character levels as the invocation. This solution helps non-EB spammers because they are up 2 invocations over spammers with the extra free invocation and not needing agonizing blast.

If a person is going to make a change it should support more builds instead of supporting more railroading into EB.

Making EB + AB a class feature would also solve the issues i bolded in your comment.

But i see your point. Meleelock also have an Invoc tax with Thirsting Blade, so making EB + AB an Invoc would balance things out and let the meleelock use his slot for something else.
But meleelock would still need some range option until they get IPW, or once they bonded a magic weapon.
In any case, the Warlock could certainly use more Invoc slots. Maybe start with 2 but gets 1 more at every even level.

Joe the Rat

2020-09-21, 02:05 PM

Hi.

There are two things I am looking at here: Dipty dip, and single class playability.

The dip issues are because Warlocks are heavily front-loaded (and hexblade just exacerbated that).
One level gets you the best damage cantrip in the game. Two levels can effectively double your damage at peak level. And yer done. This is because they are based on the mostly-at-will caster, which means cantrips and free cast invocations, of which there are limited options. Beyond that it's your two short-rest-recharge spell slots until late game.

With Eldritch blast, making it a class feature (again) is an option. But I like more variety. 'Blast is fine as a 1d10 force scaling cantrip. Beam Splitting, however, is an excellent option for a class feature. Pick a single-target cantrip with a magic attack roll (or go nuts and add the save-based single target ones), and you can send each die of damage at a different target. Seems like a good one to have around 5th level, no? Or make it an 5th level Invocation, but only if you are going to up or accelerate the invocation progression. Making Grasp, repelling and agonizing, or lance of lethargy available for non-EB cantrips is a separate exercise.

On the long play, you are getting the same number of top-level slots as a full caster, then more starting at 7th. But it doesn't quite even out. feeding the third slot in before 10th would help in mid-level play (and you can't assume RotPC is standard, unless you want to make an Invocation version). A one-a-day Psi-die-style refresh feature or Invocation would be worthwhile. Give it a cost if you like. Heck, all those 1/day spell Invocations could be done without using Warlock slots and probably be fine.

Pact-wise, I'd like to see more structured growth (or more invocations to feed the features). And whether you remove it from Hexblade or not, Use Charisma for Attack Rolls with your Pact Weapon should be a standard feature of Pact of the Blade.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 02:23 PM

So are you saying it's not to guard against dipping so much as you believe EB should be a defining feature of the class? If so I can understand that point of view but it still contradicts the melee Gish in my mind.

Basically yes, because while you can make someone that hits things and uses spells a variety of ways, there's only one at will blaster like the warlock with EB/AB; and what they do with it is a lot more like what an archer ranger does than to what a wizard or sorcerer does.

Leaving EB a cantrip creates multiclass problems, like EK7/warlock2 being technically a better ranged damage dealer than either class alone can manage because EB is a cantrip (and works with war magic) instead of a class feature. EK7/Warlock2/rogue11 is even better and that's just silly.

Basically; EB does too much to be a simple cantrip, even with agonizing blast split out. The separate beams ought to require more investment in the class, both to make the class unique and discourage simple dipping for the same signature ability.

I'd say make it a feature also so it doesn't feel like an invocation tax - that's already bad enough with a melee warlock build.

Segev

2020-09-21, 02:32 PM

Basically; EB does too much to be a simple cantrip, even with agonizing blast split out. The separate beams ought to require more investment in the class, both to make the class unique and discourage simple dipping for the same signature ability.

I won't dispute that it's one of the better damage cantrips in the game, with d10s and a great damage type, but I don't think it's so much better that doing more than gating it to one class's access list is necessary.

I actually don't have a problem with dips for eldritch blast. I view it on the same level as I view dipping rogue for Expertise or Sneak Attack, or dipping cleric for a front-loaded Domain. The one issue it poses is with Spell Sniper, because it's pretty well THE spell to pick up with that feat. And I think that more a problem with Spell Sniper being so wide-open rather than requiring you to use the same class access that gave you your base spell, and that you have a class already for it rather than just being able to do it from...hrm. That'd be an interesting discussion on its own; maybe I'll make a thread: "What kind of builds with no spellcasting classes might you use Spell Sniper on?" Anyway, digressing.

With the exception of Spell Sniper, I think the costs to get eldritch blast are sufficient, and I don't mind dipping for it.

Splitting the beams is actually its own opportunity cost. It's more versatility, but it's also more chances to miss (or hit) and it divides up damage if you do split them. What makes the split beams truly potent is Agonizing Blast adding to each of them.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 02:41 PM

I won't dispute that it's one of the better damage cantrips in the game, with d10s and a great damage type, but I don't think it's so much better that doing more than gating it to one class's access list is necessary.

I actually don't have a problem with dips for eldritch blast. I view it on the same level as I view dipping rogue for Expertise or Sneak Attack, or dipping cleric for a front-loaded Domain. The one issue it poses is with Spell Sniper, because it's pretty well THE spell to pick up with that feat. And I think that more a problem with Spell Sniper being so wide-open rather than requiring you to use the same class access that gave you your base spell, and that you have a class already for it rather than just being able to do it from...hrm. That'd be an interesting discussion on its own; maybe I'll make a thread: "What kind of builds with no spellcasting classes might you use Spell Sniper on?" Anyway, digressing.

A 2-level warlock dip can have EB, AB, and hex, and be as good a blaster as nearly any other full warlock.

A 2-level hexblade warlock dip gets all the necessary goodies from that, too.

I think that's too much for a two level dip; you could do anything else with the other 18 levels and still be pretty much as great an at-will blaster as a pure warlock provided you have the Cha.

Compare with fighter extra attack or rogue sneak attack - it shouldn't scale like that without more warlock levels, or so I argue.

Edea

2020-09-21, 02:54 PM

That's another reason why I'd prefer EB to be a class feature: you could re-write it so you wouldn't get the additional rays unless you had the correct number of warlock levels, and it'd make sense from a design standpoint (cantrips are pretty explicitly written to be class-agnostic).

CDPhenix

2020-09-21, 03:25 PM

So how I'd fix it:
1) EB is a Warlock class feature that scales with Warlock levels. Agonizing Blast doesn't exist.

That is a concept I definitely agree with, would you make it scale like how the cantrip does now or would you make something different?

2) Hexblade doesn't exist, but! Pacts are now much more impactful. Pact of the Tome gives you Agonizing Blast, +1 spell known per level, rituals and so on. Pact of the Blade gives you CHA to attack and damage, as well as medium armor proficiency, and Extra Attack at level 6. Pact of the Chain, well...makes your familiar way better somehow, somewhat like Artificer's pets.

This... seems a bit overkill to me, first of all, I don't think it'd be necessary to remove hexblade altogether. Removing the charisma to hit ability from hexblade and moving it to pact of the blade would definitely help bring it in line with the others, and would stop people from dipping into it for just that ability (that or extending the dips to 3rd level).

Now regarding pact of the tome, that's... a lot, I feel that what you're proposing would easily make it the best option for a generic warlock, agonizing blast itself is a massive reason to take it (and I don't think it follows the theme too well) but that also includes up to 20 extra spells learned. I would put it at the 3 cantrips learned and rituals and keep it at that.

Pact of the blade looks good, giving it the cha to hit that hexblade typically has is something I'v already mentioned I like, and adding an extra attack at level 6 sounds good (although that overlaps with the archetype ability), in fact if were giving blade pact an extra ability at level 6 (or I'd pitch 5 to avoid the overlapping mentioned, but that might put a bit much stuff in level 5) why not give one to all pacts, I'm not sure what they'd be but it could be interesting.

Segev

2020-09-21, 03:40 PM

A 2-level warlock dip can have EB, AB, and hex, and be as good a blaster as nearly any other full warlock.What this tells me is that they wanted the "competent Warlock blaster" build to be a level 2 thing. Anything beyond that is leaning more into being a Warlock than into eldritch blast, but you can still lean harder into eldritch blast if you want. Especially with Xanathar's Guide. Ability to push and pull people being the things I can think of off the top of my head, but I think I remember there being more. Oh, right: Eldritch Spear to get it to 300 feet. Probably pretty niche; I don't think my PCs in my Tomb of Annihilation game ever regretted having "only" 120 ft. on eldritch blast, even when traipsing through the jungle.

Leaning REALLY hard into eldritch blast requires a Sorcerer dip (or a Sorcerer who dipped Warlock), or a UA feat for Distant Spell. That is, if you want to get out to 1200 feet range with Spell Sniper, Distant Spell, and Eldritch Spear. Likely way too much investment for a super-niche trick, though.

A 2-level hexblade warlock dip gets all the necessary goodies from that, too.You'd have to look long and hard for a way to get me to defend the Hexblade Patron. :smalltongue:

I think that's too much for a two level dip; you could do anything else with the other 18 levels and still be pretty much as great an at-will blaster as a pure warlock provided you have the Cha.

Compare with fighter extra attack or rogue sneak attack - it shouldn't scale like that without more warlock levels, or so I argue.
Fighter Action Surge never goes up at all on the Fighter, but remains an amazing ability. Rogue Sneak Attack, I'll grant you.

But you aren't devoting everything about an entire level pick to Sneak Attack: you get other things on top of this. A two-level Warlock dip for eldritch blast + agonizing blast is getting a couple of moderately-useful spells and some forgettable cantrips, none of which are likely contributing to their main build. The rogue is getting Expertise out of just that one level, which is amazing, and gets Cunning Action if they go for a 2-level dip. One could argue that an Expertise on Stealth and Cunning Action makes you as good at hiding as a straight Rogue would be, with no further investment.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 03:54 PM

What this tells me is that they wanted the "competent Warlock blaster" build to be a level 2 thing. Anything beyond that is leaning more into being a Warlock than into eldritch blast, but you can still lean harder into eldritch blast if you want.

You can already get one of those with a two level dip; so Agonizing blast and repelling blast at level 2 is easy. I'd argue that repelling blast is the most useful control addon for EB, also, and they can get it the same level they pick up agonizing blast.

This makes a 2 level warlock dip a better ranged damage dealer than nearly anything else - far better than sorcerer, wizard, bard, or cleric. Far better than martials, even with full progression, with the possible exception of an archery style sharpshooter with a heavy crossbow or dual wielded hand crossbow cheese - but better than basically all other options. That's a lot.

Two warlock levels make any bard, paladin, or sorcerer a better at-will ranged blaster than most rangers and fighters, and about as good as a ranged rogue (without the constraints of sneak attack) - that seems weird to me. I think it is fine for warlocks to do that much ranged damage; their other abilities are balanced around it. But for everyone else to do it, too, with a two level dip?

That sucks for the full warlock. You might as well take levels in something else at that point, because there is a lot more survivability, healing, nova potential, and casting utility (to say nothing of skills) among the other charisma casters.

Segev

2020-09-21, 03:59 PM

You can already get one of those with a two level dip; so Agonizing blast and repelling blast at level 2 is easy. I'd argue that repelling blast is the most useful control addon for EB, also, and they can get it the same level they pick up agonizing blast.

This makes a 2 level warlock dip a better ranged damage dealer than nearly anything else - far better than sorcerer, wizard, bard, or cleric. Far better than martials, even with full progression, with the possible exception of an archery style sharpshooter with a heavy crossbow or dual wielded hand crossbow cheese - but better than basically all other options. That's a lot.

Two warlock levels make any bard, paladin, or sorcerer a better at-will ranged blaster than most rangers and fighters, and about as good as a ranged rogue (without the constraints of sneak attack) - that seems weird to me. I think it is fine for warlocks to do that much ranged damage; their other abilities are balanced around it. But for everyone else to do it, too, with a two level dip?

That sucks for the full warlock. You might as well take levels in something else at that point, because there is a lot more survivability, healing, nova potential, and casting utility (to say nothing of skills) among the other charisma casters.

You say that like full warlocks don't get anything at all after level 2. :smallconfused:

Sure, if all you wanted was the blasting power, that's viable. It isn't synergizing directly with any other class better than it synergizes with staying with Warlock. And "anything else" is now two levels behind. Your sorcerer, wizard, or bard is a whole spell level behind and can't even stack pact magic with regular spell slots via multiclassing rules to get higher-level slots to spend for upcasting. While a full Warlock has auto-upcast spell slots (admittedly few of those, though).

rickayelm

2020-09-21, 04:12 PM

Segev

2020-09-21, 04:25 PM

I like the warlock casting for the most part, between slots that you gain on a short rest, an awesome centric list, and many at will evocation you can have a fairly descent caster.

My problem is with Mystic Arcanum, they are to constrained. You should be able to pick any spell to install in your Arcanum slot. I should be able to take an 8th level Create Undead as my 8th level Arcanum to get the ability to create weights. Or an updated summon greater demon, or any spell from my list as long as it is only one per level.

At the very least, Mystic Arcana should be auto-upcast to the highest level of any of the Mystic Arcana they know. Or they should get other interesting/weird perks for being "deep secrets" taught by their Patrons. As it is, they're built up as if they're this big perk, when really, they're lesser than just having the spell slots.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 05:00 PM

You say that like full warlocks don't get anything at all after level 2. :smallconfused:

Sure, if all you wanted was the blasting power, that's viable. It isn't synergizing directly with any other class better than it synergizes with staying with Warlock. And "anything else" is now two levels behind. Your sorcerer, wizard, or bard is a whole spell level behind and can't even stack pact magic with regular spell slots via multiclassing rules to get higher-level slots to spend for upcasting. While a full Warlock has auto-upcast spell slots (admittedly few of those, though).

In combat, full warlocks spend most of their rounds eldritch blasting. Their warlock levels aren't really contributing much (at least, as warlock levels) after level 2.

A warlock 2/sorcerer x can blast the pants off a full warlock until they are out of spell points, then after combat grind up some spell slots to make more points and do it again, and have some lower level slots for things like shield, absorb elements, misty step, etc. If you're already committed to being a blaster, it isn't that bad.

A warlock 2/paladin 6 is (oath depending) far tougher than a warlock 8 and can blast at range just as well.

Most other classes take a heavier hit to their core at-will damage by multiclassing (fighters lose later extra attacks, paladins might not get improved divine smite, rogues miss out on sneak attack dice). But a warlock dip gives you basically all of it - and what its giving you is what the warlock is doing nine rounds out of ten.

Folks don't dip for firebolt, after all.

Segev

2020-09-21, 05:14 PM

In combat, full warlocks spend most of their rounds eldritch blasting. Their warlock levels aren't really contributing much (at least, as warlock levels) after level 2.

The warlock in my game does a lot with her pact magic spells and her pact weapon, and is often using her invocations for other purposes (depending what invocations she has this level).

She hasn't used it recently due to fewer humanoid enemies, but she enjoyed having a specter minion frequently.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 05:19 PM

The warlock in my game does a lot with her pact magic spells and her pact weapon, and is often using her invocations for other purposes (depending what invocations she has this level).

She hasn't used it recently due to fewer humanoid enemies, but she enjoyed having a specter minion frequently.

The pact weapon, even if hexblade, is less damage than EB+AB, unless one goes super heavy feat investments with GWM and PAM - in which case one should have been a fighter.

So, invocations into pact of the blade to be generally worse with damage along with all the negatives of melee, or pouring feats on top of that to still lag behind other martials unless eldritch smite is in the equation, and then the pact slots are gone.

If one doesn't make that mistake, the pact slots still run out fast; especially if they are ever used for defensive reactions or something like misty step.

There's nothing wrong with warlocks being balanced around eldritch blast/agonizing blast - there's something wrong with letting anyone who wants it level dip to have just as much eldritch blast damage potential.

Segev

2020-09-21, 05:25 PM

The pact weapon, even if hexblade, is less damage than EB+AB, unless one goes super heavy feat investments with GWM and PAM - in which case one should have been a fighter.

So, invocations into pact of the blade to be generally worse with damage along with all the negatives of melee, or pouring feats on top of that to still lag behind other martials unless eldritch smite is in the equation, and then the pact slots are gone.

If one doesn't make that mistake, the pact slots still run out fast; especially if they are ever used for defensive reactions or something like misty step.

There's nothing wrong with warlocks being balanced around eldritch blast/agonizing blast - there's something wrong with letting anyone who wants it level dip to have just as much eldritch blast damage potential.

I haven't broken down the math as to why, but she has neither of those feats and does do better with her pact weapon than her eldritch blast, and she does have agonizing blast. Only recently - like, one session ago - did she get a magic weapon that would make up that difference. She's also used her melee presence as a secondary front-liner to great tactical effect, though, which probably contributes to why she uses the pact weapon over eldritch blast when she makes the choice to do so.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 05:41 PM

I haven't broken down the math as to why, but she has neither of those feats and does do better with her pact weapon than her eldritch blast, and she does have agonizing blast. Only recently - like, one session ago - did she get a magic weapon that would make up that difference. She's also used her melee presence as a secondary front-liner to great tactical effect, though, which probably contributes to why she uses the pact weapon over eldritch blast when she makes the choice to do so.

Individual rounds can tip either way, but on average the accuracy is the same (or worse if not hexblade and dex or str is lower than cha; but assuming the same)

the one breakpoint where a pact weapon can pull into the lead is level 12;

(1d10+5)*3, so 31.5 average damage if everything hits with EB+AB

(2d6+5+5)*2 or 34 for hexblade/blade pact/thirsting blade/lifedrinker

This lead ends at level 17, but its actually not a lead at all if hex and hexblade's curse are in the equation :

EB+AB +hex is 42 damage at level 12

melee is 41

the same is the case with hexblade's curse - the 3rd bolt for EB pulls it into the lead again; so EB+AB remains in the lead if one us using the proper tools, and pulls out to a strong lead at 17.

Using pact slots to smite is good, and worthwhile, but the fact is EB tends to outdamage melee every step of the way remains.

I'd prefer this not to be the case - melee is so inherently risky it should do a bit more damage; and you just don't have the pact slots to smite a lot (and can only eldritch smite with pact slots, although smiting something prone is pretty cool). Some other invocation or something to boost melee around level 15 or 17 would be very nice.

Edit: this just made me think of another warlock fix: spell points instead of pact slots (mystic arcanums would remain the same)

However, rather that following the normal spell point chart, I’d convert their slots to points, and restore those points on a short rest - invocations that spend slots spend whatever the highest level point spell cost would be. So, at level 9, a warlock would have 14 spell points per short rest, but could use them normally (e.g. 2 points to cast shield). They would gain more points when they’d gain more slots, but still be capped at level 5 spells with them (as with pact magic).

Wildstag

2020-09-21, 05:48 PM

They moved away from that with paladins, and for good reason.

A set of class features that depends on or can be used as reason to curtail party activities is a mistake; as OOTS neatly summarized: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html

They intentionally made it so Paladins didn't need a God. They intentionally designed Warlocks to need a Patron. So I feel like the argument that you make doesn't really apply: there was an explicit change made to one, while the other focuses on that higher power aspect.

And even then, they MADE the Warlock that way on purpose. Neutering the major aspect because "it's a dumb thing to do" is just bizarre. If the Warlock doesn't have a patron, where do they get their power from? Because if they just "get magic", they're stepping on Warlock's toes. If they get it from a deity, they're stepping on Cleric's toes. If they get it from their skill with performance, they step on Bard's toes. If they study hard for it all their lives, they step on Wizard's toes. And if they are somehow siphoning "natural" magic, they're stepping on Druid's toes.

The power source was explicitly made to be an otherworldly being. Neglecting that major part of the class' guts because you think it hinders roleplay or whatever is doing a disservice to roleplaying in general. If you have a caster that gets magic given to them by a magic-sugar-daddy, you better believe they're doing favors for the Patron to keep them magic-juices flowing.

Otherwise, if they just get power without ever having to do anything in exchange, you're basically just playing a glorified Sorcerer.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 05:52 PM

The power source was explicitly made to be an otherworldly being. Neglecting that major part of the class' guts because you think it hinders roleplay or whatever is doing a disservice to roleplaying in general. If you have a caster that gets magic given to them by a magic-sugar-daddy, you better believe they're doing favors for the Patron to keep them magic-juices flowing.

Otherwise, if they just get power without ever having to do anything in exchange, you're basically just playing a glorified Sorcerer.

There were rules for paladins losing their powers in previous editions, and they were pretty clear.

There are no such rules for a warlock patron. Now, pissing one off might mean a quest to find a new one for their next level, but you don’t lose your warlock powers if you make your patron mad as the rules exist.

Amechra

2020-09-21, 06:20 PM

@Segev

I suspect that your party member decided to focus on Dexterity/Strength instead of Charisma for her ASIs? Because that would very handily explain the fact that her weapon deals more damage than her Eldritch Blast.

EDIT: The thing is that, if you really want to, you can easily outstrip an Eldritch Blast build with a Bladelock (hint: swap an Invocation for Improved Pact Weapon at 5th). The problem is that EB+AB is so easy that it's hardly worth the effort.

Segev

2020-09-21, 06:39 PM

@Segev

I suspect that your party member decided to focus on Dexterity/Strength instead of Charisma for her ASIs? Because that would very handily explain the fact that her weapon deals more damage than her Eldritch Blast.
Nope. Hexblade, and uses cha for both.

Though she also recently picked up Ijin, and thus might consider finesse weapons in the near future....

Frogreaver

2020-09-21, 09:17 PM

I'm going to start with the warlock that I think is mostly fine. The hexblade played as a caster warlock.

19 AC.
Access to Hypnotic Pattern (typically one of the best AOE control spells in the game).
Can Eldritch Blast with agonizing blast. Can use hexblades curse to boost boss damage.
Can choose tome or chain for additional utility.
Invocation slots are mostly open for additional utility.

For most of the game (levels 1-10) this set of abilities makes the hexblade one of the better and more unique in combat casters. Which means that at this point it's probably more that the other warlock subclasses are missing something than that the warlock class overall is.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-21, 09:26 PM

quit talking about an EB nerf.

Seriously.

EB and its attendant / related invocations is one of the great things about a warlock: it's what a warlock can do that nobody else can do.

Repelling blast is a really cool feature: it knocks back any creature, but, it can't harm an object. (Yeah, read the text carefully on EB). I can't open a door with it but I can knock an ancient dragon back 40' if I hit with all four.

Unique to warlock. Agonizing blast is just right as is.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 09:50 PM

quit talking about an EB nerf.

Who is doing that? EB as it works, with AB is fine - I just think it should be a class feature rather than available with a two level dip. That wouldn't be a nerf to EB, but rather the sort of requisite change multiclassing needs when a class is balanced around a cantrip and cantrips scale by character levels.

I suppose it might be interpreted as a nerf to EB for character builds that are not pure warlocks, but that's their problem - this thread is about fixing warlocks, not warlock dips

Frogreaver

2020-09-21, 10:01 PM

Who is doing that? EB as it works, with AB is fine - I just think it should be a class feature rather than available with a two level dip. That wouldn't be a nerf to EB, but rather the sort of requisite change multiclassing needs when a class is balanced around a cantrip and cantrips scale by character levels.

I suppose it might be interpreted as a nerf to EB for character builds that are not pure warlocks, but that's their problem - this thread is about fixing warlocks, not warlock dips

IMO, unless we are talking level 17+ multiclasses, dipping 2 levels of warlock for EB and agonizing is a huge sidegrade (at best) for any caster. More higher level slots and higher level spell access is just that important.

cutlery

2020-09-21, 10:08 PM

IMO, unless we are talking level 17+ multiclasses, dipping 2 levels of warlock for EB and agonizing is a huge sidegrade (at best) for any caster. More higher level slots and higher level spell access is just that important.

In a game where monks are dipping cleric and wizards are also dipping cleric - is it, really?

You might fall behind pure class casters, but if there aren't any of those, or your pure class casters are more utility (bard) or smite (paladin)-oriented, a two level warlock dip isn't that bad at all, and can provide cantrips and 1st level spells known not otherwise available.

Frogreaver

2020-09-21, 10:50 PM

In a game where monks are dipping cleric and wizards are also dipping cleric - is it, really?

yes

You might fall behind pure class casters, but if there aren't any of those, or your pure class casters are more utility (bard) or smite (paladin)-oriented, a two level warlock dip isn't that bad at all, and can provide cantrips and 1st level spells known not otherwise available.

It doesn't matter what the other players in the game are playing, it matters what you could have played instead.

And just to be clear, I never said hexblade 2 / caster X was a bad build. I said it was at best a sidegrade (unless looking at level 17+)

PhoenixPhyre

2020-09-21, 11:24 PM

And just to be clear, I never said hexblade 2 / caster X was a bad build. I said it was at best a sidegrade (unless looking at level 17+)

I have to agree (although about celestial, not hex). I ran a Celestial Warlock 2/lore bard 6 (we stopped at 8 because people moved) character in a PotA game. It was...underwhelming. I took the dip (started Warlock) for 3 reasons:
* EB/AB to give me something to do cantrip wise
* free healing from celestial (I was the only real support)
* it fit the character pretty well (kicked out of minstrel school, made a pact with a servant of the god of music for "the world's best voice" in exchange for going and fighting evil for a while, awakened my bardic gift as part of that).

I really felt being a spell level behind, plus getting my ASI late. One or the other, not so big a deal. Both? Eyah. Plus getting Magical Secrets late.

Sure, having constant damage was nice. But I often had better things to do with my action than EB, so the difference over replacement wasn't as big as the numbers make it out to be.

Side-grade is a good way of putting it. And EB without AB isn't all that great either. It's still a cantrip, so doing like 55% of melee's steady state damage.

Basically, except for those builds which can go fully SAD via Hexblade (hexadins) or those that can use a battery (ie sorlocks), warlock is mostly a waste as a dip. And those two are overrated IMO.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 08:01 AM

Sure, having constant damage was nice. But I often had better things to do with my action than EB, so the difference over replacement wasn't as big as the numbers make it out to be.

Side-grade is a good way of putting it. And EB without AB isn't all that great either. It's still a cantrip, so doing like 55% of melee's steady state damage.

Basically, except for those builds which can go fully SAD via Hexblade (hexadins) or those that can use a battery (ie sorlocks), warlock is mostly a waste as a dip. And those two are overrated IMO.

If that's truly the case, then there shouldn't be much lost by making EB/AB a class feature rather than low hanging fruit available with a dip.

As for warlock being a waste as a dip - someone should let everyone know, because it is almost as if half the characters in the games I play have warlock levels.

But, really, EB/AB is the bulk of combat for many warlocks; it's great that a bard with warlock dip has better things to do than that, but when they choose to do it they are doing it exactly as well as the class that has essentially no other choice for most rounds; which sounds a lot like a bard with warlock dip does nearly everything a warlock does in combat and more. (For example - healing word and an EB/AB/RB; revive a companion at zero and knock back the creature that downed them all in the same round). A celestial warlock could manage the same thing, but that's their whole schtick; any bard with a warlock dip of any patron can do this.

That needs fixing; either by tying the additional beams or AB damage on additional beams to warlock levels.

Joe the Rat

2020-09-22, 08:13 AM

I like the warlock casting for the most part, between slots that you gain on a short rest, an awesome centric list, and many at will evocation you can have a fairly descent caster.

My problem is with Mystic Arcanum, they are to constrained. You should be able to pick any spell to install in your Arcanum slot. I should be able to take an 8th level Create Undead as my 8th level Arcanum to get the ability to create weights. Or an updated summon greater demon, or any spell from my list as long as it is only one per level.

This feels like it gets into the "is an upcast spell a spell of the upcast level" arguments, but it makes perfect sense to me that you should be able to do that. MA is the only place in the game where there is exact level constraints on selected spells. Every other case (Pact, Prepared, Known) has "up to X" limits, letting you freely upcast. I see no issue with letting you your 8th level Arcanum be an upcast create undead, or nothing but hellish rebuke 6-8 if that's what you really want (But not 9th. That's for Psychic Scream).

Has Lord Crawford weighed in on this specifically?

OldTrees1

2020-09-22, 08:14 AM

As for warlock being a waste as a dip - someone should let everyone know, because it is almost as if half the characters in the games I play have warlock levels.

If it is that high, then it is not about it being a strong dip. Warlock has some unique mechanics and it sounds like your group was starved for those mechanics. For example if they had a 3E Warlock in 5E, I would use that class for EVERY caster because I hate vancian casting. Or maybe it is about how the Invocations feel like mini feats for customization. Or maybe someone wants to be like Elan so they dip Blade Pact for the Cha to attack Hexblade.

Why do they have Warlock levels?

On the topic of Eldritch Blast, there is a reason cantrips scale based on character level rather than class level or spellcasting level. However most cantrips don't get something like Agonizing Blast. And Eldritch Blast (without Agonizing) is a bit better than Fire Bolt. I think it would be better to move Agonizing Blast to 5+ level (still an invocation) and change Eldritch Blast to 1d8. Multiple attacks does give it more consistency and it is a better damage type, so I think it can be fine at 1d8. You could also do the idea of having Warlock include several Cantrip buffing invocations at 5+.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 09:23 AM

If it is that high, then it is not about it being a strong dip. Warlock has some unique mechanics and it sounds like your group was starved for those mechanics. For example if they had a 3E Warlock in 5E, I would use that class for EVERY caster because I hate vancian casting. Or maybe it is about how the Invocations feel like mini feats for customization. Or maybe someone wants to be like Elan so they dip Blade Pact for the Cha to attack Hexblade.

Why do they have Warlock levels?

Not just one group; and I think it is generally because of a very potent ranged option available immediately (well, immediately after adding two levels of warlock).

up to 4d10+20 at 17 is a bunch (~42 damage); more than many classes can expect for their at-will damage. It's big, and it's also the core of what warlocks are doing most of the time. For comparison, fire bolt is 4d10 (22 damage) and Toll the dead or poison spray max at 4d12 (26 damage). Two warlock levels also let you play the hex+EB game.

If warlocks got more combat-useful invocations or more spell slots (possibly, lower level slots of some sort) it wouldn't be an issue, I don't think. But when EB is all you're doing most of the time, it's frustrating that other builds can do all that and more; in the case of fighter and rogue you won't ever attack or sneak attack as strongly.

As you note below, I think this problem is only a problem because EB is a cantrip. It shouldn't be.

On the topic of Eldritch Blast, there is a reason cantrips scale based on character level rather than class level or spellcasting level. However most cantrips don't get something like Agonizing Blast. And Eldritch Blast (without Agonizing) is a bit better than Fire Bolt. I think it would be better to move Agonizing Blast to 5+ level (still an invocation) and change Eldritch Blast to 1d8. Multiple attacks does give it more consistency and it is a better damage type, so I think it can be fine at 1d8. You could also do the idea of having Warlock include several Cantrip buffing invocations at 5+.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'd go further and de-cantripify EB; cutting the damage potential hurts pure warlocks and I don't think they need that nerfing - they already have the problem of being balanced around getting far more short rests per adventuring day than groups really take; though that would only drop them by four points of damage at 17.

Either way; they still have the problem of limited resources; at level 12 (when their melee abilities are near their peak, with lifedrinker) they're still only managing something like 34 damage; plus two doses of either hex (3.5*2) or hexblade's curse (4 * 2); they can curse once per SR and hex 3 times - but only if they cast no other spells (it isn't likely they can keep concentration up all day with one casting of hex - they're going to get hit often enough in melee). EB+AB+hex is one point more damage, and easier to keep concentration at range; and EB+AB+curse is even better and of course outscales at 17.

And thats staying a pure warlock and pouring class choices into melee, just to be a point or two behind Eldritch Blast with one invocation.

Melee as a warlock needs something, and I don't think eldritch smite (which competes with hex for slots) is it. I hesitate to say a third attack as a bonus action (level 15 or 17 invocation), but that might be it.

Segev

2020-09-22, 10:18 AM

Thinking on it, my distaste for changing eldritch blast to a class feature of Warlocks from a cantrip is probably at least in significant part due to a resistance to change. I am not fond of changing things if I don't see them as broken. And while I understand that people are mostly upset that eldritch blast, as a cantrip, auto-upgrades with character level rather than class level, I don't really see it as a problem.

To illustrate why, I will discuss something relatively tangential: illusionists.

Without the UA Feat that grants access to Invocations, a Warlock is actually a better illusionist than the Wizard Illusionist from levels 2 through 10. All due to the Misty Visions Invocation. The ability to cast silent image at will outstrips even Malleable Illusions in versatility and utility. Add in minor illusion for sound, and it's practically as good as major image at will would be. Not quite, no, but close enough that the Wizard Illusionist feels sub-par in comparison. This changes when a wizard hits level 11 and can upcast major image from a 6th-level spell slot, making it permanent and making Malleable Illusions allow them to treat major image as if it were "cast at will" as long as they have one in line of sight, but before then....

And no, dipping 2 levels of Warlock doesn't make this "better," because a 2-level warlock dip is a huge blow to Illusionist advancement, and means that they don't get to really enjoy the benefits of their primary class until character level 13, due to delaying the acquisition of 6th level spell slots. Worse, when they finally get there, they've largely invalidated most of their Warlock investment.

Now, your Bard dipping 2 levels of Warlock for blastlock capacity is never going to hit the point where his investment in Warlock is invalidated, but the point remains that Warlock expands in versatility after level 3 or so, rather than doubling-down on a schtick. This is one reason it's so dip-friendly. If you want one particular Warlock toy, you can get it for a 2- or 3-level dip. This isn't necessarily a problem.

The main fixes to make Warlock attractive enough to those who want to more firmly invest in a theme, I think, would need to be to Mystic Arcanum, not to eldritch blast. The troubles with Mystic Arcanum have been mentioned, and at least some of the solutions are relatively simple: give them the ability to learn a lower-level spell upcast to the appropriate level as a Mystic Arcanum, or maybe even make Mystic Arcana auto-upcast to the highest-level one they have.

Maybe improve some of the higher-level Invocations. Why on Earth is "Jump at will" a 9th level Invocation? Make things gated at that level worth going to that level!

But I just don't see eldritch blast as being so powerful that you need to make it "run warlock to 20 or don't use it."

Amechra

2020-09-22, 10:42 AM

Segev

2020-09-22, 11:01 AM

Easy mode: I'd make them Int-based and reduce Eldritch Blast's damage die to d8s. Hexblade goes out the window, and Pact of the Blade gives you proficiency with martial weapons, medium armor, and shields instead of what it currently does. Everything that the Pact of the Blade does right now (conjuring a cool weapon) is merged with Improved Pact Weapon (which loses its level prereq), and any invocations that are restricted to working with your pact weapon aren't anymore (most importantly, Thirsting Blade is now just Extra Attack).

I'm in the camp that thinks that Bladelocks shouldn't be SAD by default. It probably wouldn't break anything, but stat swaps like that are kinda awkward, and it makes Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast way more attractive as a fallback option than it really should be.Reworking Hexblade and Pact of the Blade is probably a good idea. My approach (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers) was just to create tools in Invocations and spells to allow a gishlock to gish from level 1 with any Patron, and expand on it further later. These naturally synergize with Pact of the Blade, but don't require it.

Another issue I have with the core chassis of the Warlock is how... unequal... the split subclasses are. If you look at the class chart, it looks like Patrons are the big subclass and that your Pact Boons are some minor thing that you take at 3rd level that unlock a few Invocations. However, it's actually the opposite - most Patrons ultimately give you a few minor benefits that sorta flavor your Warlock, while Pact Boons are what actually define your playstyle. It feels kinda backwards to me, and it makes it kinda hard to pick a Patron.

It kind-of depends. Really, Warlocks have two subclasses, which is part of what makes them so cool to explore the build-space for. For an example of a Pact (homebrewed) that really leans into this, I will point to a submission to a subclass design contest (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24428485&postcount=14) I made a few months ago.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 11:51 AM

Reworking Hexblade and Pact of the Blade is probably a good idea. My approach (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers) was just to create tools in Invocations and spells to allow a gishlock to gish from level 1 with any Patron, and expand on it further later. These naturally synergize with Pact of the Blade, but don't require it.

As it currently exists, a melee warlock can't really be that effective later on unless they take the blade pact (or multiclass).

Eldritch smite, thirsting blade, lifedrinker, and improved pact weapon (casting focus) all require pact of the blade, and four invocations+pact is a heavy tax to melee semi-effectively. Lifedrinker in particular is necessary to keep up with 3rd attack (fighter) and improved divine smite (paladin) at level 11. Blade cantrips won't keep up; at least not well.

At 11th or 12th, Shillelagh on a club or staff and a blade cantrip would be 1d8+5+2d8, with the option for one dose of hex. Not terrible, but not great relative to other folks in melee. Better than some bards (unless they take a feat or MC or use a secret or are an elf to get a blade cantrip) and clerics, but... that's basically as good in melee as anyone with a blade cantrip. Is that a gish? If so, it isn't a very good one. A High elf druid can do exactly the same thing.

OldTrees1

2020-09-22, 11:53 AM

Not just one group; and I think it is generally because of a very potent ranged option available immediately (well, immediately after adding two levels of warlock).

I suggest asking. You might be surprised, or you might not. Either way it helps identify if there even is something to address, and what to address. If you are right, then my change of (EB stays a cantrip but 1d8 Force, Agonizing requiring 5th+, and other cantrips having their own invocations) should address that issue without hurting more normal multiclassing or singleclassing.

up to 4d10+20 at 17 is a bunch (~42 damage); more than many classes can expect for their at-will damage.

Based on that high level estimate, I assume you play high level games. I notice this critique is not exclusive to multiclassed warlocks. Do you consider single classed warlocks to have too strong of an Eldritch Blast?

As you note below, I think this problem is only a problem because EB is a cantrip. It shouldn't be.

Yeah, that makes sense. I'd go further and de-cantripify EB; cutting the damage potential hurts pure warlocks and I don't think they need that nerfing - they already have the problem of being balanced around getting far more short rests per adventuring day than groups really take; though that would only drop them by four points of damage at 17.

I was arguing that EB should remain a cantrip because it has the same reason for scaling as Fire Bolt does. (Just because you think multiclassed warlocks have it too good, does not mean they should be nerfed more than needed). It just is a bit better than Fire Bolt. Hence my suggestion to make EB do 1d8 instead of 1d10, move Agonizing Blast to a 5th+ invocation, and make more invocations like Agonizing Blast but for other cantrips.

Yeah, dropping by less than 4 DPR is not a problem and would make it easier to provide Warlocks with multiple forms of offense.

Either way; they still have the problem of limited resources; at level 12 (when their melee abilities are near their peak, with lifedrinker) they're still only managing something like 34 damage; plus two doses of either hex (3.5*2) or hexblade's curse (4 * 2); they can curse once per SR and hex 3 times - but only if they cast no other spells (it isn't likely they can keep concentration up all day with one casting of hex - they're going to get hit often enough in melee). EB+AB+hex is one point more damage, and easier to keep concentration at range; and EB+AB+curse is even better and of course outscales at 17.

And thats staying a pure warlock and pouring class choices into melee, just to be a point or two behind Eldritch Blast with one invocation.

Melee as a warlock needs something, and I don't think eldritch smite (which competes with hex for slots) is it. I hesitate to say a third attack as a bonus action (level 15 or 17 invocation), but that might be it.

I think Mystic Arcanum is a sign WotC didn't know how to make Warlock levels 11-20. Partially I blame the shift from At-will to short rest casting.

Honestly Lifedrinker sounds like WotC used the Extra Attack & Improved Divine Smite paradigm to me.
Tier 1: 1 Attack
Tier 2: 2 Attacks
Tier 3: 2 Attacks x1.5 Damage
Tier 4: You are not Fighter
In contrast WotC used Fighter paradigm for EB.

Another issue I have with the core chassis of the Warlock is how... unequal... the split subclasses are. If you look at the class chart, it looks like Patrons are the big subclass and that your Pact Boons are some minor thing that you take at 3rd level that unlock a few Invocations. However, it's actually the opposite - most Patrons ultimately give you a few minor benefits that sorta flavor your Warlock, while Pact Boons are what actually define your playstyle. It feels kinda backwards to me, and it makes it kinda hard to pick a Patron.

Yeah, levels 6 and 10 feel dead to me because the higher Patrons features are lacking and/or don't fit my concept.

Segev

2020-09-22, 12:02 PM

As it currently exists, a melee warlock can't really be that effective later on unless they take the blade pact (or multiclass).

Eldritch smite, thirsting blade, lifedrinker, and improved pact weapon (casting focus) all require pact of the blade, and four invocations+pact is a heavy tax to melee semi-effectively. Lifedrinker in particular is necessary to keep up with 3rd attack (fighter) and improved divine smite (paladin) at level 11. Blade cantrips won't keep up; at least not well.

At 11th or 12th, Shillelagh on a club or staff and a blade cantrip would be 1d8+5+2d8, with the option for one dose of hex. Not terrible, but not great relative to other folks in melee. Better than some bards (unless they take a feat or MC or use a secret or are an elf to get a blade cantrip) and clerics, but... that's basically as good in melee as anyone with a blade cantrip. Is that a gish? If so, it isn't a very good one. A High elf druid can do exactly the same thing.

I disagree that it's a heavy tax for a single-class gish that's heavier on the caster side. I could see argument for rolling one of them - probably improved pact weapon - into pact of the blade itself, but in general, I think it's probably fine.

My modification of hexblade's curse into a spell is, like the Hexblade Patron, designed to at least on paper work without having to go gish. Because I stole it straight from the Hexblade Patron's mechanics.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 12:03 PM

I suggest asking. You might be surprised, or you might not. Either way it helps identify if there even is something to address, and what to address. If you are right, then my change of (1d8 Force, Agonizing requiring 5th+, and other cantrips having their own invocations) should address that issue without hurting more normal multiclassing or singleclassing.

I've asked several, and the response "eldritch blast is awesome!" is pretty common.

Based on that high level estimate, I assume you play high level games. I notice this critique is not exclusive to multiclassed warlocks. Do you consider single classed warlocks to have too strong of an Eldritch Blast?

Not when that's really their primary tool. Yes they have a few Mystic Arcanums (and foresight is pretty powerful), and as many as 4 5th level slots; but defensive reaction spells and bonus action escapes take the same four slots - to the point where feats that grant once/LR misty step (and potentially also once/LR level 1 hex) seem like a good idea.

I think Mystic Arcanum is a sign WotC didn't know how to make Warlock levels 11-20. Partially I blame the shift from At-will to short rest casting.

Honestly Lifedrinker sounds like WotC used the Extra Attack & Improved Divine Smite paradigm to me.
Tier 1: 1 Attack
Tier 2: 2 Attacks
Tier 3: 2 Attacks x1.5 Damage
Tier 4: You are not Fighter

Can't disagree there - the arcanum selection is narrow, too, and upcasting a regular spell to 6th+ is off the table for warlocks (they don't have 6th/7th/8th/9th level slots, they have Mystic Arcanums).

Some of the high level invocations look terrible - maybe if they were once/day but once/day and taking a warlock slot? Ouch.

Perhaps an option to spend an 8th or 9th level arcanum to boost melee, or a 15+ level invocation... warlocks are just weird in late Tier 3 and Tier 4. Especially if what you want to be doing is melee, alongside fighters and paladins, in particular.

Things perk up a bit with foresight - that's sort of a must pick for a melee lock, at that level. Not too many of the other possible MA choices are that useful; soul cage might be among the most useful (again, if melee is the focus).

OldTrees1

2020-09-22, 12:08 PM

I've asked several, and the response "eldritch blast is awesome!" is pretty common.

Ah, makes sense. Yeah for that I would balance EB against other cantrips and bump the cantrip boosting invocations to 5th level. After trying that for a bit, then see if Warlock 5 / X 12 still feels OP despite losing 3 more levels to warlock. I suspect some will still say "eldritch blast is awesome" but it might be for how it feels rather than "pick OP tool".

Personally I hear about Pact Magic more frequently. But different groups skew differently.

Oh, and I have never heard anyone say Mystic Arcanum. So that also informs me about what we already knew.

Stray thought: What if Warlocks got 6th level pact magic as an alternative to Mystic Arcanum? What level could that be appropriate at? Is 7th level pact magic possible before 21st?

Amechra

2020-09-22, 12:16 PM

As it currently exists, a melee warlock can't really be that effective later on unless they take the blade pact (or multiclass).

Eldritch smite, thirsting blade, lifedrinker, and improved pact weapon (casting focus) all require pact of the blade, and four invocations+pact is a heavy tax to melee semi-effectively. Lifedrinker in particular is necessary to keep up with 3rd attack (fighter) and improved divine smite (paladin) at level 11. Blade cantrips won't keep up; at least not well.

At 11th or 12th, Shillelagh on a club or staff and a blade cantrip would be 1d8+5+2d8, with the option for one dose of hex. Not terrible, but not great relative to other folks in melee. Better than some bards (unless they take a feat or MC or use a secret or are an elf to get a blade cantrip) and clerics, but... that's basically as good in melee as anyone with a blade cantrip. Is that a gish? If so, it isn't a very good one. A High elf druid can do exactly the same thing.

The trick, I've found, is that Eldritch Smite is a trap (you don't have enough spell slots to burn them on burst damage) and that you should be using those spell slots to cast spells like Shadow Blade instead. Seriously, it's not that hard to build a Bladelock that can match or beat an Eldritch Blast user's damage in Tiers 1-3, which is a pretty reasonable expectation for a gish.

I find the idea that the Warlock should be able to match an optimized Fighter or Paladin in melee, even with Pact of the Blade, to be kind of absurd. The Fighter and Paladin are built to murder things with weapons from the ground up - of course your Warlock has to sacrifice quite a bit of their versatility to even get close to that kind of damage output. It would be like expecting Pact of the Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets to make you as good of a spellcaster as the Wizard.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 12:21 PM

Stray thought: What if Warlocks got 6th level pact magic as an alternative to Mystic Arcanum? What level could that be appropriate at? Is 7th level pact magic possible before 21st?

I wondered about that, but based on the full caster spell slot charts and the spell points rules, they seem to be making 5th level spells the point after which magic comes in dribbles. You can only spell point one 6th-9th spell (per level) per day, a lot like MA (though you'll have more choices and can upcast and so on). At 19th full casters finally get a second 6th level slot per LR, and a second 7th at 20th.

Similarly, Flexible casting only lets sorcerers create 5th level slots, and Arcane Recovery is capped at 5th level slots.

So, in that light it looks like MA are sort of balanced around the number of those high level spells per long rest other casters get. So, fine, as far as that goes. The restrictions, though, are punishing, and the lists themselves are not that great; no disintegrate, no teleport, I'd say no wish but that's now on the table with the Genie patron; which is a massive boost in utility even if never used for anything other than replicating spells of 8th level and under.

But, all that said, I agree, the mystic arcanum "system" does not feel great.

I'm not sure what would fix it - perhaps a few more warlock specific spells?

I find the idea that the Warlock should be able to match an optimized Fighter or Paladin in melee, even with Pact of the Blade, to be kind of absurd. The Fighter and Paladin are built to murder things with weapons from the ground up - of course your Warlock has to sacrifice quite a bit of their versatility to even get close to that kind of damage output. It would be like expecting Pact of the Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets to make you as good of a spellcaster as the Wizard.

If part of that was base to pact of the blade, then that would be ok. A warlock shutting out of the utility of the other pacts and spending a lot of invocations just to keep pace is a bit much. I don't think they should be better than a fighter, but I don't think it is necessarily a problem for warlocks to have a bit better at-will melee damage (if they do spend all those invocations) than a paladin. Paladins smite better and will always be tougher.

Or: make eldritch blast a class feature and then it's more clear they are balanced around access to that, and spending invocations on melee to be slightly worse than a paladin is fine.

Instead, someone can build a "melee" warlock, not take EB/AB, and end up being sort of lackluster - especially if they don't go hexblade (and for someone just reading about the patrons, why would they pick hexblade? It's about as boring a setup for a patron as there is). They'd have to have a good enough grasp of the crunch to get why hexblade is good, and if they have that good a grasp of the crunch they will know that (1) EB/AB is always better and (2) other classes at-will melee is better, too. Do Mystic arcanums make up for it? Maybe?

Willie the Duck

2020-09-22, 12:23 PM

Hi. Read the thread, mostly responding to OP though.

There are some oddities of 5e that make warlock dipping appealing (possibly, as mentioned with people who actually dipped warlock on their sorcerers/bards/paladins, more tasty when on the tray than in the mouth). Lore Bards and Paladins seem like very good classes in this edition excepting for a decent at-will ranged attack option (also force damage being as close to a type-resistance trump card as the game has). Paladins and Sorcerers have class features that benefit from being fed spells by the warlock. This is just a highly notable example of the basic problem* of this MC model that has plagued the game since 3e (3.0 in particular).
*Or non-problem, depending on perspective.

To the question of single-classed warlocks, in addition to what's been said (the no pre-L11 3rd spell per SR and lots of DMs having trouble getting in enough SR's per day being a huge part of it), I think a problem is that they don't fill out a role. They are like monks that way -- they don't replace a fighter, rogue, wizard, or cleric unless extremely specifically tuned to that function.

I also believe it's the best designed of the classes.
I kind of agree, with caveats. If, when designing 5e, they had decided that this was the spellcaster model they were going with, I think it would be considered brilliant (with some tweaks). In the same game alongside Long Rest casters (who certainly aren't the only reason why the 5/15MWD exists, but certainly contribute), and in particular with the MC rules we have, I think they are a bit of a misfire.

As to bladelocks/hexblades -- I think they should have made a 'valor bard' warlock subclass (medium armor, martial weapons, two attacks), and then made a warlock-themed fighter archetype, not unlike Eldritch Knights, and put the energy into making that a playable warlock-y martial.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 12:31 PM

To the question of single-classed warlocks, in addition to what's been said (the no pre-L11 3rd spell per SR and lots of DMs having trouble getting in enough SR's per day being a huge part of it), I think a problem is that they don't fill out a role. They are like monks that way -- they don't replace a fighter, rogue, wizard, or cleric unless extremely specifically tuned to that function.

As to bladelocks/hexblades -- I think they should have made a 'valor bard' warlock subclass (medium armor, martial weapons, two attacks), and then made a warlock-themed fighter archetype, not unlike Eldritch Knights, and put the energy into making that a playable warlock-y martial.

I have to agree - when I play a warlock in Tier 2 it can be pretty painful without enough SRs.

The hexblade martial archetype is out there in homebrew-land (manual of eldritch arcana), and while pretty cool, suffers from some of the same short rest reliance issues. At least the melee strength core to the fighter class is there by default - if they get enough SRs it isn't bad at all.

Segev

2020-09-22, 12:34 PM

Since this would be broken, I wouldn't suggest doing it, but my instinctive desire is to give Mystic Arcana to Warlocks as at-will, rather than daily abilities. Some options would even be somewhat viable. Powerful, but not the end of the world. Arcane gate at will is amazing, but isn't going to replace all other combat options, for example. Circle of death, however, would only be limited by the AoE hitting friendlies, and create undead at will would be insane.

What about giving them the ability to cast each Mystic Arcanum once per long rest, plus the ability to expend Pact Magic spell slots to cast them at their minimum levels? This basically keeps the short-rest casting mechanic and extends it to 9th level spells, but prevents upcasting beyond 5th level.

Petrocorus

2020-09-22, 12:35 PM

The main fixes to make Warlock attractive enough to those who want to more firmly invest in a theme, I think, would need to be to Mystic Arcanum, not to eldritch blast. The troubles with Mystic Arcanum have been mentioned, and at least some of the solutions are relatively simple: give them the ability to learn a lower-level spell upcast to the appropriate level as a Mystic Arcanum, or maybe even make Mystic Arcana auto-upcast to the highest-level one they have.

What about simply giving him normal spell slot progression for spell levels 6 to 9? With his spell known progression improved by 4.
Instead of this Mystic Arcanum limited mechanics.

Maybe improve some of the higher-level Invocations. Why on Earth is "Jump at will" a 9th level Invocation? Make things gated at that level worth going to that level!

Yeah, this made no sense, even more so since the Levitate Invoc is on the same level and will often be more effective.

Their should be more high level valuable invocation. Instead of this cast 1x/ a spell, why not having some extra spell known invocation, with maybe the ability at some high level to learn a spell from another list.

And probably more Invoc like Chains of Carceri, allowing to cast mid-level spell at will.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 12:39 PM

Their should be more high level valuable invocation. Instead of this cast 1x/ a spell, why not having some extra spell known invocation, with maybe the ability at some high level to learn a spell from another list.

And probably more Invoc like Chains of Carceri, allowing to cast mid-level spell at will.

A few "cast X cha mod times per day" invocations would be nice, too

Say at level 9 or 11, let them cast shield cha times per long rest as an invocation. Maybe make it pact of the blade, sure. But it woudn't be any more often than a wizard or sorcerer would be doing it.

Maybe if shield is too strong make a new one; eldritch barrier. Make it work like shield only it adds less ac (if it must) and blocks eldritch blast instead of magic missile.

Willie the Duck

2020-09-22, 12:40 PM

The hexblade martial archetype is out there in homebrew-land (manual of eldritch arcana), and while pretty cool, suffers from some of the same short rest reliance issues. At least the melee strength core to the fighter class is there by default - if they get enough SRs it isn't bad at all.

Just having them get 3 attacks at 11th, 2 extra ASIs, and the standard Second Wind/Action Surge (and be balanced around that, rather than trying 12 ways from Sunday to get a viable combat character out of 2 attacks, cha-as-attack stat, and corner case abilities like darkness/devil's sight) would be a step in the right direction).

cutlery

2020-09-22, 12:46 PM

Just having them get 3 attacks at 11th, 2 extra ASIs, and the standard Second Wind/Action Surge (and be balanced around that, rather than trying 12 ways from Sunday to get a viable combat character out of 2 attacks, cha-as-attack stat, and corner case abilities like darkness/devil's sight) would be a step in the right direction).

Yeah, it does a lot - once you get past not having war magic from the eldritch knight (which isn't that great if 3 attacks is on the table, anyway). the one in MoEA is capped at two slots; and one might wonder if 2 3rd level slots (only) per SR is really "enough" for an archetype at 13th level, but that's more a general issue with short rest pact magic than anything else, as it has advanced pretty much just like the EKs casting, otherwise.

Amechra

2020-09-22, 02:31 PM

If part of that was base to pact of the blade, then that would be ok. A warlock shutting out of the utility of the other pacts and spending a lot of invocations just to keep pace is a bit much. I don't think they should be better than a fighter, but I don't think it is necessarily a problem for warlocks to have a bit better at-will melee damage (if they do spend all those invocations) than a paladin. Paladins smite better and will always be tougher.

Or: make eldritch blast a class feature and then it's more clear they are balanced around access to that, and spending invocations on melee to be slightly worse than a paladin is fine.

Instead, someone can build a "melee" warlock, not take EB/AB, and end up being sort of lackluster - especially if they don't go hexblade (and for someone just reading about the patrons, why would they pick hexblade? It's about as boring a setup for a patron as there is). They'd have to have a good enough grasp of the crunch to get why hexblade is good, and if they have that good a grasp of the crunch they will know that (1) EB/AB is always better and (2) other classes at-will melee is better, too. Do Mystic arcanums make up for it? Maybe?

Bladelocks only really need to spend two Invocations on their offense. Eldritch Smite is nice, but you have better uses for your spell slots. Improved Pact Weapon is also nice, but it isn't really necessary if you're in a game where you can reasonably expect to find magic weapons. In Tier 1/2, you're effectively just spending your Invocation Tax on Thirsting Blade instead of Agonizing Blast - prioritize Str/Dex over Cha, and you'll be fine¹. Once you get into Tier 3, you fall behind unless you pick up Lifedrinker and a bonus-action attack from somewhere (I like dual-wielding a Shadow Blade in your off-hand for that tasty 4d8 damage, but PAM is still there as the boring-but-practical option). So, honestly, maybe Lifedrinker needs to be better?

The real issue is that your defense is abysmal if you aren't a Hexblade. Sure, a Dex-focused Bladelock could just pick up Armor of Shadows and have perfectly acceptable AC, but you're otherwise looking at picking up Moderately Armored and casting Armor of Agathys before every fight. This is why my change for the Pact of the Blade gives them armor proficiencies instead of a boost to their offense - if they're going to be a gish, they need to be way less squishy.

¹ Your spell list has plenty of buffs and utility spells on it that don't care about your Charisma. Armor of Agathys and Hex are pretty obvious, and there are other tasty options like Shadow Blade or Darkness + Devil's Sight.

tl;dr

A Bladelock has 2-3 "must-have" invocations (Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker, maybe Armor of Shadows). One of those invocations is only relevant for Tier 3+. They have access to 2 other unique invocations (Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact Weapon).
A Chainlock has 2 "must-have" invocations (Agonizing Blast and Voice of the Chain Master). They're going to want to pick up both of those invocation in Tier 1. They have access to 2 other unique invocations (Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, Chains of Carceri).
A Tomelock has 2 "must-have" invocations (Agonizing Blast and Book of Ancient Secrets). They're going to want to pick up both of those invocations in Tier 1. They have access to 1 other unique invocation (Aspect of the Moon).

I dunno about you, but that looks pretty comparable to me, in terms of invocation taxes.

cutlery

2020-09-22, 02:40 PM

I dunno about you, but that looks pretty comparable to me, in terms of invocation taxes.

I think if they were similarly effective, sure. I don't think that's the case, though - perhaps that's just a case of things being skewed in favor of ranged damage, but EB is both safer to use and better damage. It ought to be the other way around; melee should be a bit better damage but risky to use.

I guess technically smite gets you there (or a nice magic weapon), but you'll run out slots for smite pretty quick.

Maybe a way to burn a slot to "hexify" a weapon so it does a bit more damage for a minute (that does not require concentration, something like some of the channel divinities some paladin oaths get).

Hexblade does get access to elemental weapon - but that requires concentration.

Yakmala

2020-09-22, 02:49 PM

Most of this has already been covered, but #1 on my list is turning Eldritch Blast from a spell into a class feature. It scales with Warlock level only. You can't grab it via Magic Initiate or Magical Secrets. You actually have to level up in Warlock if you want it to improve. Hexblade's Curse should be given the same treatment.

Segev

2020-09-22, 03:02 PM

Asmotherion

2020-09-22, 03:06 PM

What I do think might need a bit of fixing is better, warlock exclusive, scalable spells that benefit Eldritch Blast kinda like the Blast Shape/Eldritch Essance Invocations. Something that would encourage a Warlock to Stay Warlock over his whole carrier rather than diping in-out. Or, the same in the form of a Feature.

For example, at Level 7 minimum, an Invocation of Adding 1d6 (Fire/Cold/Lightning/Accid/Thunder) extra damage to eldritch Blast by "burning" a hit die or taking a level of exhaustion (Kinda like the Old Hellfire Warlock).

Or an invocation that makes EB imune to Anti-Magic Fields and Dead Magic Zones (Like the old Vitriolic Blast).

Or, like, Shape EB into a Cone/Sphere that deals it's full damage for each Ray.

Finally, More Good spells available at-will.

Basically, you need to give more reason to stay Warlock, because right now, you want to multiclass as soon as you get your invocations, and possibly a pact boon.

I don't necessarily think that Eldritch Blast should become a Class Feature, as people do want a Generic "Kamehamehadoken" cantrip option for their mage (or even fighter). Or, maybe turn other cantrips into lesser damage dice than EB, but similar mechanics, since it seems to be so desirable.

I'd probably give a d12 to Eldritch Blast if I was to make it Warlock Exclusive, and have "Fire Bolt" etc at d8, yet have additional attacks at higher levels.

Petrocorus

2020-09-22, 03:06 PM

The real issue is that your defense is abysmal if you aren't a Hexblade. Sure, a Dex-focused Bladelock could just pick up Armor of Shadows and have perfectly acceptable AC, but you're otherwise looking at picking up Moderately Armored and casting Armor of Agathys before every fight. This is why my change for the Pact of the Blade gives them armor proficiencies instead of a boost to their offense - if they're going to be a gish, they need to be way less squishy.
This is why i consider the armor and shield proficiency the biggest perk of Hex Warrior. It benefit almost every builds, except a warladin, while any range build don't really care about the SADness (except the IPW-SS-XBE builds), they all benefit from the proficiencies.

Bladelocks only really need
A Bladelock has 2-3 "must-have" invocations (Thirsting Blade and Lifedrinker, maybe Armor of Shadows). One of those invocations is only relevant for Tier 3+. They have access to 2 other unique invocations (Eldritch Smite, Improved Pact Weapon).
A Chainlock has 2 "must-have" invocations (Agonizing Blast and Voice of the Chain Master). They're going to want to pick up both of those invocation in Tier 1. They have access to 2 other unique invocations (Gift of the Ever-Living Ones, Chains of Carceri).
A Tomelock has 2 "must-have" invocations (Agonizing Blast and Book of Ancient Secrets). They're going to want to pick up both of those invocations in Tier 1. They have access to 1 other unique invocation (Aspect of the Moon).

I dunno about you, but that looks pretty comparable to me, in terms of invocation taxes.
I slightly disagree with this though. I agree AB and TB are clearly taxes. And so is Lifedrinker for a melee build that have few damage bonuses and can hardly go GWM/PAM due to the need for Dex (without Hex Warrior).

But i don't think of VoCM and BoAS as taxes. Because i don't see them as necessary, the chainlock and tomelock are serviceable without them and OTOH the improvement on utility they provide is so big, notably for BoAS, that it can hardly be considered taxes, more like options that are too good to be missed.
Heck, as a chainlock, i may take GotELO before VoCM, especially if i gish a little, or if i managed to find a Periapt of Wound Closure.

Yakmala

2020-09-22, 04:02 PM

I suppose it comes down to this: Is Warlock defined by eldritch blast, or is eldritch blast defined by Warlock?

Right now, Warlock as a class is not defined by Eldritch Blast. An any-class 18 / Warlock 2 multi-class is just as good at Eldritch Blast as a Level 20 Warlock.

I would like to see Eldritch Blast be more of a class defining feature.

Right now, Agonizing Blast is an Invocation Tax for most Warlocks. Repelling Blast to a lesser extent.

I'd like to see Eldritch Blast not only become a class feature, but I'd like to see the modifiers to it expanded and removed from Invocations and instead, treated in a similar manner to a Battle Master's maneuvers. You gain 1-2 at early levels and can pick more of them as you level up. This makes it a class defining feature with a lot of versatility and frees up invocation slots for more of the fun stuff that sometimes gets skipped because of the need to support EB.

Segev

2020-09-22, 04:39 PM

Right now, Warlock as a class is not defined by Eldritch Blast. An any-class 18 / Warlock 2 multi-class is just as good at Eldritch Blast as a Level 20 Warlock.

I would like to see Eldritch Blast be more of a class defining feature.

Right now, Agonizing Blast is an Invocation Tax for most Warlocks. Repelling Blast to a lesser extent.

I'd like to see Eldritch Blast not only become a class feature, but I'd like to see the modifiers to it expanded and removed from Invocations and instead, treated in a similar manner to a Battle Master's maneuvers. You gain 1-2 at early levels and can pick more of them as you level up. This makes it a class defining feature with a lot of versatility and frees up invocation slots for more of the fun stuff that sometimes gets skipped because of the need to support EB.

That's one vote for Warlock being defined by eldritch blast as a desirable goal.

I disagree with that goal, for the record, but I do understand holding it, and if that is your goal, I agree that making it a class feature is the way to go. You could build the class main chassis around it.

Asmotherion

2020-09-22, 05:49 PM

This is why i consider the armor and shield proficiency the biggest perk of Hex Warrior. It benefit almost every builds, except a warladin, while any range build don't really care about the SADness (except the IPW-SS-XBE builds), they all benefit from the proficiencies.

I slightly disagree with this though. Because as good if AB and TB are clearly taxes. And so is Lifedrinker for a melee build that have few damage bonuses and can hardly go GWM/PAM due to the need for Dex (without Hex Warrior).

But i don't think of VoCM and BoAS as taxes. Because i don't see them as necessary, the chainlock and tomelock are serviceable without them and OTOH the improvement on utility they provide is so big, notably for BoAS, that it can hardly be considered taxes, more like options that are too good to be missed.
Heck, as a chainlock, i may take GotELO before VoCM, especially if i gish a little, or if i managed to find a Periapt of Wound Closure.

It's true, Agonising is kinda like a Tax that should be incorporated into the class itself.

Maybe incorporate the things "everyone wants" into the class, and leave invocations as a more customisable option, instead of a tax to do what you entered the class to do either way?

Petrocorus

2020-09-22, 06:20 PM

It's true, Agonising is kinda like a Tax that should be incorporated into the class itself.

With maybe the option to replace it with Thirsting Blade at level 5, so to not make the melee warlock most costful than the range one.

Pex

2020-09-22, 06:44 PM

With maybe the option to replace it with Thirsting Blade at level 5, so to not make the melee warlock most costful than the range one.

The better way is to give Pact of the Blade Extra Attack. Being a Bladelock does not prevent you from also enjoying Agonizing Eldritch Blast. It's a feature to have the versatility to be good at melee and range. Thirsting Blade can then be an invocation that gives a bonus action melee attack that can only be used with your Pact Weapon.

Asmotherion

2020-09-22, 07:27 PM

The better way is to give Pact of the Blade Extra Attack. Being a Bladelock does not prevent you from also enjoying Agonizing Eldritch Blast. It's a feature to have the versatility to be good at melee and range. Thirsting Blade can then be an invocation that gives a bonus action melee attack that can only be used with your Pact Weapon.

I agree with this. Even when I play a Hexblade, I find myself in the backrow most of the time, blasting people eldritchly (since my group has like, 3 tanks, and only 1 member unable to properly melee).

Greywander

2020-09-23, 03:26 PM

I've kind of skimmed through the thread, so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents.

I'm actually okay with dipping for EB, though I can see pushing Agonizing Blast back a few levels in order to require a deeper dip. I like the fact that builds such as a padlock paladin 11/warlock 9 can still take full advantage of EB. I can see why it might be offputting to some people that dipping 2 levels for EB+AB is so popular, but I think this is a feature, not a bug. It's not really different from a sorcerer or bard dipping 2 levels into paladin for smites. As someone else said, this is really more of a sidegrade; what you're getting is pretty nice, but what you're giving up to get it is roughly comparable.

I could see making EB an invocation, but I think it's a bad idea to give an extra invocation at 1st level, as this will only make warlock an even more attractive dip. Now you could pick up Devil's Sight or whatever with only 1 level in warlock instead of 2. Instead, I'd rather simply bundle it with Agonizing Blast. Not every warlock who gets EB also gets AB, but most of them do.

I have mixed feelings about leaving EB as a cantrip. On the one hand, I don't think it's a problem for other classes to get as long as they make the necessary investment (feat or dip), and I do like having it be affected by Spell Sniper. One of the big reasons I don't think EB should be a cantrip is that it works differently from other cantrips, namely, with the beam splitting. When writing homebrew that interacts with cantrips, I often run into problem when EB rears its ugly head and breaks the ability I wrote. Most cantrips can only hit one target, the ones that can hit more than that have some kind of restriction on them, such as requiring enemies to be standing literally right next to each other (Acid Splash, Create Bonfire), uses concentration (Create Bonfire), or requires you to be in melee range (Thunderclap, Sword Burst, Word of Radiance). EB, meanwhile, can hit up to 4 targets anywhere inside the generous 120 foot range (which can be improved to 600 feet). An effect that procs on a hit is balanced for all other cantrips, because they're either single-target or have restrictions, but EB can proc that effect 4x as much at no cost. Adding your ability mod to damage rolls is the classic effect where this comes up, but imagine if, say, monks got an ability that let them spend 1 ki to Stunning Strike with a cantrip, and EB let them Stunning Strike four targets for only 1 ki. You can write the ability in such a way as to exclude EB exploits, but then the wording tends to get convoluted and might hurt legitimate uses with other cantrips.

As for Mystic Arcanum, what if we just turned it into an invocation? You can take it more than once, and each time you do you get a 6th+ level spell that you can cast once per long rest. Your Mystic Arcanum automatically scale up to 9th level as you level up (like Pact Magic scales to 5th level), so you can cast more than one 9th level spell, but not the same one more than once. We can then grant additional invocations instead of Mystic Arcanum, giving you some more flexibility. And actually, we could do the same with Pact Magic. Make Pact Magic an invocation where each time you take it you get one spell that you can cast once per short rest, and your Pact Magic spells automatically scale up to 5th level as you level up. But maybe that's going too far.

As for Hexblade, I'd just move some of its features to the Pact of the Blade, namely the CHA for weapon attacks. This makes a Hexblade bladelock identical after 3rd level, and still makes 3+ level dips just as strong, but curtails the 1 or 2 level dips.

As a few others have said, aside from Hexblade (and blade pact, which I think is too weak), I think the warlock is actually mostly fine. The warlock feels like someone designed a caster using the guidlines for martial classes. If anything, I think it might be other full caster classes that are the problem; a warlock should feel fine next to a fighter or rogue, but might feel impotent next to a wizard.

A couple of other things: I always feel invocation- and cantrip-starved when building a warlock. I wouldn't mind a couple extra of each, though getting Agonizing Blast for free would also help. Some invocations become available at wonky levels, usually too late to be useful. GOO needs a buff. I also think warlock should have been an INT caster, but CHA casting makes it good for padlocks, which I like.

Segev

2020-09-23, 04:33 PM

Asmotherion

2020-09-23, 04:55 PM

For eldritch blast getting in the way of cool rider effects that you don't want proc'ing four times, you could just write each effect to affect a single target. "Choose an affected target of your spell, and [do this thing to them]."

Or, limit the scale of the effect to the point of not breaking anything.

An extra d6 may be a huge deal; Less so for a d4, and even less for a flat +1 (+4 on 4 EBs). Still, even +4 can be very much appreciated.

PhoenixPhyre

2020-09-23, 06:50 PM

For eldritch blast getting in the way of cool rider effects that you don't want proc'ing four times, you could just write each effect to affect a single target. "Choose an affected target of your spell, and [do this thing to them]."

Or even simpler (and more commonly written): "once on your turn when you hit a target with a cantrip, you can [do thing]".

That sort of phrasing is everywhere. For damage dice, you get "add X to one damage roll" such as a lot of the other "add damage to spells" rolls.

Asmotherion

2020-09-23, 07:03 PM

Or even simpler (and more commonly written): "once on your turn when you hit a target with a cantrip, you can [do thing]".

That sort of phrasing is everywhere. For damage dice, you get "add X to one damage roll" such as a lot of the other "add damage to spells" rolls.

Actually, let's not do that. It really messes up imersion. I literally would rather have a lesser bonus, than this.

Those kind of effects really give me a bad headache. It really feels like bad design. At least to me, but I doubt I'm alone in this.

OldTrees1

2020-09-23, 07:32 PM

Actually, let's not do that. It really messes up imersion. I literally would rather have a lesser bonus, than this.

Those kind of effects really give me a bad headache. It really feels like bad design. At least to me, but I doubt I'm alone in this.

You are not alone in this.

Small bonuses is fine for EB.
Then have larger bonuses on invocations for cantrip B.

MaxWilson

2020-09-23, 07:49 PM

cutlery

2020-09-23, 07:56 PM

I don’t think EB, as is, is a problem for pure warlocks. It doesn’t need fixing, but it could use some exclusivity.

I would like for blade pact to be more comparable, but that doesn’t mean a nerf to EB.

And if the yardstick is bladesinger, a fully invested bladelock should mop floor with them, as the bladesinger will cast rings around the warlock.

This might be the case with Hexblade bladelocks, but warlocks shouldn’t be tied to one patron for that.

Greywander

2020-09-23, 09:28 PM

For eldritch blast getting in the way of cool rider effects that you don't want proc'ing four times, you could just write each effect to affect a single target. "Choose an affected target of your spell, and [do this thing to them]."
My issue with this is that there are other cantrips that can also hit multiple targets, and I feel like it would be fair for them to benefit from applying the effect to each target instead of just one. The reason I'm fine with, say, Acid Splash or Thunderclap working this way and not EB is because hitting multiple targets with these spells is nontrivial, whereas EB will always either hit multiple targets or the same target multiple times. Most of the time Acid Splash won't be hitting a second target, so when it does you want it to feel rewarding. Likewise, Thunderclap requires you to get into melee, a place most casters don't want to be, so the benefits should outweigh the disadvantages of being a squishy caster in melee.

Perhaps the best way of handling this is to make EB a single beam, then give warlocks an invocation that splits the beams (and perhaps require, say, 5 levels in warlock to get). I think someone actually already suggested this, in fact. You could have the invocation apply to all warlock cantrips, too, and create other invocations comparable to Repelling Blast and the like but for non-EB cantrips.

cutlery

2020-09-23, 09:40 PM

My issue with this is that there are other cantrips that can also hit multiple targets, and I feel like it would be fair for them to benefit from applying the effect to each target instead of just one. The reason I'm fine with, say, Acid Splash or Thunderclap working this way and not EB is because hitting multiple targets with these spells is nontrivial, whereas EB will always either hit multiple targets or the same target multiple times. Most of the time Acid Splash won't be hitting a second target, so when it does you want it to feel rewarding. Likewise, Thunderclap requires you to get into melee, a place most casters don't want to be, so the benefits should outweigh the disadvantages of being a squishy caster in melee.

Perhaps the best way of handling this is to make EB a single beam, then give warlocks an invocation that splits the beams (and perhaps require, say, 5 levels in warlock to get). I think someone actually already suggested this, in fact. You could have the invocation apply to all warlock cantrips, too, and create other invocations comparable to Repelling Blast and the like but for non-EB cantrips.

Splitting frostbite into four targets would be pretty nice support.

Amechra

2020-09-23, 10:04 PM

Actually, let's not do that. It really messes up imersion. I literally would rather have a lesser bonus, than this.

Those kind of effects really give me a bad headache. It really feels like bad design. At least to me, but I doubt I'm alone in this.

That kind of wording only exists because of stuff like Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile, and Scorching Ray, which potentially let you stack multiple instances of the same bonus onto one enemy. So yeah, it is bad design. :smalltongue:

Greywander

2020-09-23, 10:06 PM

Splitting frostbite into four targets would be pretty nice support.
Indeed, I almost think Frostbite wouldn't need any other kind of boost. Pure damage cantrips, sure, but cantrips that already have a rider would benefit a lot more just by being able to split it.

An invocation that allows beam splitting for cantrips should probably be restricted to spell attacks and saves, so as to exclude the likes of Booming Blade. I kind of feel like AoE spells should also be excluded, so Create Bonfire and Thunderclap/Sword Burst.

Segev

2020-09-24, 12:19 AM

My issue with this is that there are other cantrips that can also hit multiple targets, and I feel like it would be fair for them to benefit from applying the effect to each target instead of just one. The reason I'm fine with, say, Acid Splash or Thunderclap working this way and not EB is because hitting multiple targets with these spells is nontrivial, whereas EB will always either hit multiple targets or the same target multiple times. Most of the time Acid Splash won't be hitting a second target, so when it does you want it to feel rewarding. Likewise, Thunderclap requires you to get into melee, a place most casters don't want to be, so the benefits should outweigh the disadvantages of being a squishy caster in melee.

Perhaps the best way of handling this is to make EB a single beam, then give warlocks an invocation that splits the beams (and perhaps require, say, 5 levels in warlock to get). I think someone actually already suggested this, in fact. You could have the invocation apply to all warlock cantrips, too, and create other invocations comparable to Repelling Blast and the like but for non-EB cantrips.

You could perhaps make the rider effects have some sort of useful, but not overwhelming, scaling, and then make the riders be on the dice of damage rather than on mere "hits."

That way, anything that hits one target only gets the stacking, just like an eldritch blast that is all aimed at one target, and acid splash et al get the fully-stacked rider on all targets, while an eldritch blast gets only lesser-stacked rider effects if split up.

Waazraath

2020-09-24, 03:08 AM

Ovarwa

2020-09-24, 05:38 PM

Hi,

I have a few problems with the Warlock, amidst which I suggest possible solutions. My thinking is still pretty sketchy and preliminary, which reading will probably make obvious.

1) Patrons

Aside from the unnecessary and distracting gendering, many GMs and players see the Patron as a source of punishment and constraint for Warlock players: Hew the line, or lose your power. Obey my command, or lose your power. Behave a certain way, or, you know. The class does not need any constraint of this kind to make up for being too powerful.

I think it is more interesting and appropriate for Warlocks to have a Psychopomp, a guide into the Great Unknown beyond ordinary words or description. Or even an impersonal avenue or initiation into or encounter with greater understanding (that of course cannot really be understood, insofar as ordinary people conceive of such things.) Can the relationship be that of a patron and client? Sure, but it can be so many other things too. Because no one really has a personal relationship with Azathoth, or the Streels of Urtah, or....

Unlike a cleric, a warlock would not then have a relationship with a personage, as such. The relationship is with Evil rather than with the demon who introduced the Warlock to the power of the Dark Side, with the Great Beyond rather than with some power of death or undeath, with The Ultimate Truth rather than with some great teacher, etc.

A mechanic of favor exchange might be interesting, more transactional than what a cleric has, in which a Warlock might ask for a favor and if it is fulfilled, the Warlock will eventually be asked for a favor which, if not fulfilled, causes the Warlock to lose this ability.

2) Pact Magic Problems

It has previously been suggested that pact magic is just as good as the regular kind, usually supported by math and some carefully curated examples showing how a few level 5 slots are just as good as an array of slots ranging from 1 to 5, and maybe even better.

But most of us know this is not true, not by a long shot. Many conversations about this can be found elsewhere, and other conversations that acknowledge the point but suggest that this is how it should be. Nothing wrong with that sort of opinion, but I cannot find myself ok with a mechanic that makes you use a 5th level slot for an ordinary 1st level spell.

I also like the idea of Warlocks doing things differently.

So I'd get rid of Mystic Arcana, which I also don't like. I'd keep Pact Slots, leaving open for now how many a Warlock gets, at what levels a Warlock gets them, and when they replenish, because that's a balancing act, but there would be rather few of these; certainly a level 20 Warlock should not have 4/short rest. Then I'd have them scale past level 5, all the way to level 9. A warlock casting a level 1 spell would still need to use a pact slot, but would roll a die during casting: If the die roll exceeds the spell level, the Warlock does not lose the slot. If the die roll is less than or equal to the spell level, the Warlock loses the slot as usual. Naturally, the die used will increase with Warlock level.

(Heck, a similar mechanic can probably slot into the existing Warlock chassis: At some point, the Warlock rolls a d4 when casting a Warlock spell with Pact Magic; if the die exceeds the spell level, the slot is not expended. Optionally, at some much later point, the Warlock might get a d6.)

I like the feel of this. The Warlock interacts with power beyond understanding, beyond even his understanding, and he always has some of it, but is not sure of its limit. (*It* is boundless, but the Warlock is not.)

3) Great stuff up front, rarely worth going the distance

Nuff said.

At first level, I think a Warlock should get to choose between an Eldritch Blast that improves with class level, or something like a Pact Weapon whose benefits also improve with class level. For me, having one of these is a motif of the D&D class. Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is. What benefits happen when? I don't know.

I think that Hexing is intrinsic to the class, even more fundamental than having some sort of enhanced attack. It should start at level 1, maybe 1/long rest, and get better and more. It should not be a spell. It should not use concentration.

I think all Warlocks should get continuous Foresight at level 16, representing their ineffable insight into the true nature of things.

It would be a cool level 20 ribbon for a level 20 Warlock to himself act as a guide for new Warlocks.

Improved armor? There can be invocations and/or pact abilities for this. And maybe the Pact Weapon version gets +1AC while wielding the weapon. But nothing extreme at level 1.

Using Cha to hit with a Pact Weapon? Maybe the level 1 version of this is that when wielding the PW, if your Cha is greater than the stat used with that weapon, and that stat is <20, you get +1 to hit and damage.

Maybe a Warlock doesn't need spells at level 1. For example, a level 3 Warlock might get a single level 2 Pact Magic slot per short rest, with a d3 replenishment.)

4) Mystic Arcanum

They really aren't nearly as good as getting spell slots. Why not remove this confusing and disappointing mechanic?

Anyway,

Ken

Greywander

2020-09-24, 06:03 PM

cutlery

2020-09-24, 06:31 PM

2) Pact Magic Problems

It has previously been suggested that pact magic is just as good as the regular kind, usually supported by math and some carefully curated examples showing how a few level 5 slots are just as good as an array of slots ranging from 1 to 5, and maybe even better.

But most of us know this is not true, not by a long shot. Many conversations about this can be found elsewhere, and other conversations that acknowledge the point but suggest that this is how it should be. Nothing wrong with that sort of opinion, but I cannot find myself ok with a mechanic that makes you use a 5th level slot for an ordinary 1st level spell.

Yeah, a handful of lower level slots would be so helpful (to the point that a dip in EK, wizard, or sorcerer looks attractive, depending on type of warlock).

Spell points could work, assuming you only get as many spell points per SR as you would need to cast your max level slots, but this is a very small number of spell points; at least you could turn a 5th level slot into a couple of lower level ones in that case.

4) Mystic Arcanum

They really aren't nearly as good as getting spell slots. Why not remove this confusing and disappointing mechanic?

The restriction isn’t necessarily that bad, but permanent is a bit too much. Some longer mechanic (1d8 days, whatever) to replace arcanums would be better. If you pick a bad one you’re sort of stuck.

But, you’re right - the short rest mechanic is hampering. A couple low level slots on top of pact slots wouldn’t make them overpowered at all.

Petrocorus

2020-09-24, 08:28 PM

Instead of Pact Magic spell slots and Mystic Arcanum non-slots, the Warlock was using the spell point variant, with half of what the table of the DMG (p. 289) gives but with a short rest recovery?

cutlery

2020-09-24, 08:56 PM

Instead of Pact Magic spell slots and Mystic Arcanum non-slots, the Warlock was using the spell point variant, with half of what the table of the DMG (p. 289) gives but with a short rest recovery?

I think that's too many spell points; well, too many if short rests are doled out according to WoTCs expectations. Perhaps not if run according to how many tables actually play.

at 11, a wizard 73 spell points; that could be 10 5th level spells per long rest, with arcane recovery eking out one more. That's a bunch. Same goes for sorcerer, really.

A warlock, at 11, gets 3 per SR, with two short rests gets 6 more - that's in the ballpark, maybe.

I'd stick with converting their SR slots into points, so 3 level 5 slots would be 21 points; and for warlocks, no casting 6th level spells with slots. Arcanums handle that, but Arcanums can be swapped - perhaps one arcanum per long rest.

The most recent class versatility UA could be read to imply this, as it groups 1st-9th level spells for the warlock all under "warlock spells" and says the new list enhances "pact magic", despite adding items to the 6th-9th level list. Part of the versatility options is to swap out one spell per long rest, but the replacement must be at the same level (bards and sorcerers have similar options in the UA).

So, 21 spell points at 11th (and one 6th level arcanum), and warlocks can never create spell slots greater than 5th with their "eldritch points". This would increase to 28 points at 17th when they'd get their 4th slot.

Now, I could see sprinkling a few more points on top of that, say, 5 or so - not enough to make another 5th level slot, but a little gravy to smooth things out. Have it scale up starting in Tier 2; so maybe 24 points at 11. These points all return on a short rest, and their maximum is whatever it is (so, no rollover points).

Not really putting out any more 5th level fireballs or cones of cold, but one of those can be sacrificed for a couple shields or misty steps.

Half what a full caster gets would be 36 spell points at 11th; that's enough for 5 5th level spells - too much, I think.

kbob

2020-09-24, 10:35 PM

There are several problems with the warlock (this is coming from someone who’s current favorite char is one) and many here have stated those. I would say that out of all of their problems, the biggest one overall (and surely the biggest reason for not going Warlk 20) is the lack of spells tethered to the short-rest mechanic. I get what they were trying to do but it just handicaps the warlk into something of a joke as far as casters go. They become pseudo-full casters that will be begging their party members for short rests. This makes them dependent on team-play in a way that is unique to any other class. All other classes benefit the most by other party members filling in the gaps that they, themselves, cannot fill adequate or by someone augmenting their ability to do what they are good at. The warlk, save Hexblade which changes the feel of the class more so than any other subclass in my opinion (doesn’t even feel like a warlk anymore just the best gish in the game), dependent on the team play from another player sitting at the end of the table; the DM. For the warlk to “work” it NEEDS short rests. Even with short rests you will still find yourself EBing most of the time but even more so if the DM doesn’t do a lot of short rests. Which it’s easy to say, “ya but 5e is designed for a short rest after 2-3 encounters so the DM is wrong if he doesn’t.” First it’s not wrong. Most games I play don’t have that many short rests. Second, maybe that’s what the game designers wanted but it doesn’t typically play out that way. As a DM, I can tell you it can make things more mechanical and can make you feel pressure to change encounters because of one player (and it’s not his fault). It can seem to take away from things. Like if the party is in a dungeon of some evil genius but that evil genius allows the party to take countless hour long rests throughout. I mean I know you can’t make a dungeon crawl too thought out or the players would have 0 chance but it just takes away from the immersion. And not just as a DM. As a player, I still feel it takes away from the immersion. Honestly the short-rest mechanic, in my opinion, was never necessary. The long rest or once a day 8 hour sleep was fine. Still “gamey” but you could hand waive it as it happened less often and it was the end of the adventuring day (time to heal up and rest from battle). Fits a fantasy game theme.
As far as I can see, the only reason that short rests could be argued as necessary is because of the warlk. I mean it kinda is a problem for them. I mean why do it then? Why take such a cool concept for a class and just beat the crap out of their supposed strongest ability (spell casting) with nerf bat. For flavor?? For balance?? You couldn’t find a way to balance them without reducing them to glorified laser guns??! Well I have an idea, what if you gave them more spells and spell slots and have them regain their slots back after a long rest like everyone else?! Is that too hard?!! I mean is it really freaking necessary to hamstring the poor warlk into 2 @%#\€! spell slots until they reach 11?!! I mean what were they thinking?!! You have to wait until you literally get past half of your max levels to gain an extra spell slot! 11th F$@%\ LEVEL!! I guess the game designers were in true a%_£&@ mode at that time. “We can give them some invocations to add some flair but 3 spell slots is WAY too many! Besides the players will love begging everyone else to stop after every fight for them to baby their character back to ‘usefulness’”. I mean all they had to do was make them get spells back like everyone else. Or if they just HAD to give in to their short rest fetish then at least give them a 3rd spell slot around 6 or something? And maybe another every 3 after that.
But instead we get some deformed hybrid pseudo-full caster that’s really a magical archerer in disguise! I mean invocations are neat in theory but at the end of the day it’s “I shoot them with EB.”
I apologize for the rant. I didn’t mean to go that long but I think I channeled my inner AVGN while writing the latter part.

Nhorianscum

2020-09-24, 10:45 PM

Warlock probably should have been an int class?

Past that not much to say. The short rest design space is odd but it works for what it does and while EB is much maligned by some it's not really a significant DPR boost until tier 3.

Hexblade is really strong but it's not by-default stronger than cleric 1 so meh. It's fine.

Pex

2020-09-24, 10:49 PM

I apologize for the rant. I didn’t mean to go that long but I think I channeled my inner AVGN while writing the latter part.

So, are you just a fan or really him?
:smallyuk:

kbob

2020-09-24, 11:13 PM

So, are you just a fan or really him?
:smallyuk:

Just a fan.

Asmotherion

2020-09-27, 01:18 PM

That kind of wording only exists because of stuff like Eldritch Blast, Magic Missile, and Scorching Ray, which potentially let you stack multiple instances of the same bonus onto one enemy. So yeah, it is bad design. :smalltongue:

I don't know... I mean, mechanically it makes sence, and it feels cool.

Small scaling bonuses stacking is one of my favorite things in D&D :P

As long as it's small enough to average towards the median DPT it's not bad design. You can have a limited selection of spells that do it, or multiple mutually exclusive spells that don't stack (for example a set of buffs that dispel each other).

Miele

2020-09-27, 03:22 PM

I don't see huge problems with the class, yet it could be modified a bit to become more interesting 10 to 20.

Tier 1: it's good, nothing really to be changed here. Maybe move Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade and replace it with something else, but I'm not opposed to dipping here and there for some powerful effects, because in the end, dipping has a cost and it's not insignificant. Many theorycraft up to 20, but campaigns rarely get up there if ever, so making characters working decently well in 3 to 7 levels should be a goal for every class.
Warlock is good at this: you can EB, you can melee if you plan for it, you can support as Celestial, you can become a smiting archer, etc.

What I'd change a little bit is the SR mechanic, it's too arbitrary and not well defined: at the "5 minutes working day" tables the class is kinda weak, if you SR 5 times, it's a tad too strong. I'll take the inspiration from the Samurai's Fighting Spirit: "3 times per long rest" and say that warlocks can recover their slots 3 times every long rest as long as they are not in combat, problem solved and not too strong.

Tier 2: I'd revise a bit the patron boons, make them a tad more interesting or balanced or both. I'd also add 1 invocations at level 5 and 1 spell slot at level 6.

Tier 3 and 4: Mystic Arcanums should be made more open choice and switchable every now and then (not too easily, not too fast).