Sleep Spell useful until which Level?

[Wasp]

Hi everyone!

at which levels would you say is the Sleep spell a viable option? When should a player replace this spell (if they can)?

I am pondering if I should take Sleep for my Lore Bard that will start at 3rd level

Kind regards

Wasp

[KillingTime]

I'd suggest that it's already declining in effectiveness by third.
Don't get me wrong... It's still good. You'll still be able to end an encounter with a party of low level mooks like goblins.
The problem is that by third level, the party isn't afraid of said encounter, so you're going to be less inclined to spend a levelled spell trying to end it in a hurry.
I'd say it's still got a couple of levels of play in it, and you'll definitely want shot of it by 5th, but 1st and 2nd are where it shines.

[Zhorn]

I'd say that more comes down to your DM's campaign style and how they construct your encounters and adventuring days.

For instance, a DM that focuses on ramping up monster difficulty and HP averages for all encounters as you level up and doesn't use encounters with low CR past the first couple of levels, the spell will see almost zero usage past 4th level.

If you have a DM that like battles of attrition in dungeon crawls where it's about wearing the party down over time with multiple smaller skirmishes with kobolds, goblins and such, then Sleep can retain it's usefulness for a long stretch up the level range. Against casters that like to use Conjure Woodland Beings to summon eight Pixies for polymorph shenanigans, Sleep can make for a potent counter to the Pixie's 1 hp, knocking them out and killing their concentration.

As a utility spell to harmlessly eliminate townsfolk and guards, it works rather well to eliminate witnesses without the need to violently assault anyone. But again, if you DM raises the base HP of commoners and guards then that strategy becomes a bust.

[Eldariel]

Like Zhorn said, it's more about what you expect to face. You're about to raid a Goblin stronghold? It's gonna be useful on Tier 1 and even Tier 2. You need to take a VIP alive? It's a great, reliable finisher (I've finished off a level ~7ish caster with it after we beat him up a bit). I've even knocked out a Bulezau with it (again, after the Pally smote it). Overall, as a general purpose spell you might prepare every day I generally keep it for the whole of Tier 1 unless we specifically and only face extremely high HP enemies or elves specifically. With its range, AOE, lack of need for sight and lack of any kind of defenses it just has so many upsides that I'm willing to put up with its faults in most scenarios. After Tier 1, when I'm running Hypnotic Pattern, Web and perhaps Fireball or Dragon's Breath as my go-to AOE effects its need and utility diminishes dramatically.

Even in Tier 1, if my character is a natural Thunderwave user, I might be inclined to lean in that direction instead but again, the lack of save, the range and the sheer amount of "damage" Sleep can do is just great. Hell, I remember an encounter with a few bigger Sahuagin aboard a ship when I wasn't prepped for combat on level 5; I ended up casting Sleep to very good effect with the big brute and few small fry all being low enough to be caught by one Sleep (after they'd gotten knocked around some by Spirit Guardians). But I would've just used a stronger spell if I had any prepared; it was more a social spell prep than anything.


In short:
- No regular preparation on Tier 2 or higher
- Some consideration for not prepping on level 3-4 but generally still take it
- Autoprep on 1-2 unless we're specifically fighting Drow in the Underdark or a similar scenario

FWIW, Lore Bard in my LMoP/SKT/ToD/DoISP game switched it out on level 5 though he's still got locales to go where it'd be useful.

[diplomancer]

An interesting niche use in later tiers is for creatures like Fiends who don't die or get unconscious at 0HP, but get banished. If you need to capture them instead of getting rid of them, sleep allows you to do that. A good way of permanently getting rid of a BBEG if you can right after Plane Shift to THEIR plane.

Of course, only works if they are not undead or immune against being charmed.

[sithlordnergal]

As a general rule I drop sleep at around level 5. By level 5 I generally expect to face things that have over 50 hp, or HP close to 50, such as Bandit Captains, Ghosts, ect. At that point your party has access to spells like Fireball, and while you may lack fireball as a Bard, you have access to stronger AoE spells like Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, and Slow. Even if I'm facing a hoard of low CR mooks with low HP, I find spells like Fear to be a bit more effective than Sleep.

[Bobthewizard]

You could still keep sleep at level 3, but I'd be more inclined to take faerie fire and Tasha's at 3 as my offensive 1st level spells.

If you keep it, know that the way you use it changes around level 3. At levels 1-2 it's a great big gun opener. You can just end encounters with it. By level 3, it's a second or third round spell. Wait until a couple of enemies are wounded and then use it on them. Sometimes the party can't optimally focus fire and you end up with a few wounded enemies. Sleep is still an effective non-concentration way to take out one or two wounded opponents.

By level 5, as enemies gain more HP and your cantrips do more damage, it becomes harder to judge the right time to use it, so I'd usually replace it by then.


As a general rule I drop sleep at around level 5. By level 5 I generally expect to face things that have over 50 hp, or HP close to 50, such as Bandit Captains, Ghosts, ect. At that point your party has access to spells like Fireball, and while you may lack fireball as a Bard, you have access to stronger AoE spells like Fear, Hypnotic Pattern, and Slow. Even if I'm facing a hoard of low CR mooks with low HP, I find spells like Fear to be a bit more effective than Sleep.

It can still be a good follow up to the wizard's fireball to knock out a couple that are still standing. Say you are facing 5 humans with armor and swords. The wizard drops a fireball on them doing 25 points of damage but they are all still standing. You don't know how many HP they started with or how many of them saved. Sleep could be a great 1st level spell to cast there. I'd say you have a good chance of dropping one and possibly dropping two, with no saving throw.

Fear is absolutely way more effective than sleep, but it's a third level slot compared to a first level slot, and a 5th level bard only has 2 3rd level slots. At level 5 you still need to be contributing offensively with your 1st and 2nd level spell slots. So sleep can still be a useful spell to cast at 5th level. Just not as useful as it was before. Like I said, I usually drop it at level 5 and prefer a couple other spells, but you could still get some use out of it.

[Chronos]

I had it on my arcane trickster, which meant that I couldn't even use it at all until level 3. And I did get very good use out of it once (against a bunch of stirges, where it ended the encounter before anyone else did anything). But I think that was the only time I ever used it, before I swapped it out (which I knew I was going to do eventually, even as I took it).

[Lunali]

An interesting niche use in later tiers is for creatures like Fiends who don't die or get unconscious at 0HP, but get banished. If you need to capture them instead of getting rid of them, sleep allows you to do that. A good way of permanently getting rid of a BBEG if you can right after Plane Shift to THEIR plane.

Of course, only works if they are not undead or immune against being charmed.

Plane shift is an awfully expensive way to cast banishment, though it does let you go to their home plane to finish them there if your DM doesn't let you banish mortally wounded fiends.

[Edea]

Oddly, in 5e the spell is most effective against enemy spellcasters, especially non-elf wizards. That's quite a change from previous editions.

Also oddly, one the best early-game defenses against the spell (other than being an elf) is an effect that grants temporary hit points.

[Wasp]

Thank you all! I will keep the spell for now and probably replace it soon with something else.

[Naanomi]

For some characters it has... out of combat utility past that. Sneaking around the king’s castle and don’t want to slaughter the innocent low level servants who would raise an alarm? Sleep is a good tools for reliably subduing non-combatants

[KorvinStarmast]

For some characters it has... out of combat utility past that. Sneaking around the king’s castle and don’t want to slaughter the innocent low level servants who would raise an alarm? Sleep is a good tools for reliably subduing non-combatants Yes! Thank you!

Also, at high levels, it has that unique feature of there being no saving throw. If cast a 9th level, it's 5d8 + 16 d8

When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, roll an additional 2d8 for each slot level above 1st. In a situation where your opponent is a bit bloodied, and all of your allies are in dire straights or subject to conditions, having just under 100 HP worth of sleep might be handy where the Legendary Save can't do anything about it. (Granted, that's an edge case, but worth pondering). Of course, the 'immune to sleep' issue also arises ...

[LudicSavant]

An interesting niche use in later tiers is for creatures like Fiends who don't die or get unconscious at 0HP, but get banished. If you need to capture them instead of getting rid of them, sleep allows you to do that. A good way of permanently getting rid of a BBEG if you can right after Plane Shift to THEIR plane.

Of course, only works if they are not undead or immune against being charmed.

IIRC, it's also one of the ways you can take out a level 20 Zealot Barbarian.

[Eldariel]

IIRC, it's also one of the ways you can take out a level 20 Zealot Barbarian.

Basically any disabling spell works.

[Jamesps]

I imagine it's based on how often your rogue pisses off horde's of commoners you really shouldn't be killing.

In my experience you'll get use out of it throughout all levels in about 50% of the games you play.

[MrStabby]

So there are two trade-offs.

1) At what level is it no longer worth the spell slot?

2) At what level is it no longer worth the spell known?


You can find circumstances where the situational spell is worth the spell slot at higher levels.

The issue is that at higher levels you have so many more spells to pick from, so many spells competing for the allocated spell known, that it just becomes overall better to swap it out. I would usually ditch it by level 3, but at least by level 5 when some top tier disabling, non lethal spells come online as competition. Sure, they aren't as efficient, but freeing up that spell known is really useful.

[Lunali]

Basically any disabling spell works.

Only ones that knock the target unconscious, otherwise they're still up, raging, and trying to break your spell.

[Frogreaver]

I've often wondered, if an ally starts the fight with a fireball and you follow up with a sleep spell on the enemies in the aoe, how effective would that be, even in mid tier. It's a bit of a niche case as it requires some team tactics but I wonder if the spell is decent in that circumstance even against a bit higher hp foes.

To answer the OP question, i'd feel best in most scenarios to trade sleep out between levels 5 and 7.


IIRC, it's also one of the ways you can take out a level 20 Zealot Barbarian.

Level 20 Barbarian has over 200 hp. Sleep in a level 9 slot sleeps for an average 94.5 hp. A max roll comes out to 168 hp. Something doesn't seem right here :smallconfused:

Maybe you can explain though.

[Lunali]

Level 20 Barbarian has over 200 hp. Sleep in a level 9 slot sleeps for an average 94.5 hp. A max roll comes out to 168 hp. Something doesn't seem right here :smallconfused:

Maybe you can explain though.

The difficulty in killing a lvl 20 zealot is not when they are at 200hp, but when they are at 0hp and still fighting at full strength.

[Eldariel]

The difficulty in killing a lvl 20 zealot is not when they are at 200hp, but when they are at 0hp and still fighting at full strength.

Polymorph-line is probably the most commonly prepared easy solution: turn them into a newt or whatever and then hit drop them.

[Frogreaver]

The difficulty in killing a lvl 20 zealot is not when they are at 200hp, but when they are at 0hp and still fighting at full strength.

Seems like the easiest part to deal with? Rage ends in 1 minute regardless of anything else (even persistent rage doesn't extend that). All control effects last at least a minute and many with a single save. Barbarian wis or cha saves will be terrible. Target him with appropriate save and he's finished. Yea it takes a higher level slot than 1 and has around an 85% chance of success instead of 100% but it's not particularly hard to stop him once he hits zero.

[Hellpyre]

Seems like the easiest part to deal with? Rage ends in 1 minute regardless of anything else (even persistent rage doesn't extend that). All control effects last at least a minute and many with a single save. Barbarian wis or cha saves will be terrible. Target him with appropriate save and he's finished. Yea it takes a higher level slot than 1 and has around an 85% chance of success instead of 100% but it's not particularly hard to stop him once he hits zero.

The thing is, you can start a new rage while raging, and a level 20 barb has unlimited faily rages. So you need to make the barb specifically unconcious or otherwise incapacitated to prevent them from raging indefinitely (and only unconsious ends it immediately).

[Frogreaver]

The thing is, you can start a new rage while raging, and a level 20 barb has unlimited faily rages. So you need to make the barb specifically unconcious or otherwise incapacitated to prevent them from raging indefinitely (and only unconsious ends it immediately).

Right, but there's a ton of spells that incapacitate for a minute.

Lowest level one that can easily work (other than sleep) with a single save that i can think of is Suggestion: you are really tired from this fight and need to sleep. Of course there's also hypnotic pattern at level 3. Both are spells you are somewhat likely to have prepared. Polymorph at level 4 is another.

[Zhorn]

Right, but there's a ton of spells that incapacitate for a minute.

Lowest level one that can easily work (other than sleep) with a single save that i can think of is Suggestion: you are really tired from this fight and need to sleep. Of course there's also hypnotic pattern at level 3. Both are spells you are somewhat likely to have prepared. Polymorph at level 4 is another.

And they are all saves. Sleep has no save, you just need to get the target down to low health first, which you are already doing.
Sleep's not a FANTASTIC spell, but for the niche it exists in it is pretty good. It's just a matter of how often you'll come across that niche, which is very DM/campaign dependant.

[LudicSavant]

Level 20 Barbarian has over 200 hp. Sleep in a level 9 slot sleeps for an average 94.5 hp. A max roll comes out to 168 hp. Something doesn't seem right here :smallconfused:

Maybe you can explain though.

It's not about their 200 hp, it's about how to finish them off when they're at 0 hp (they can't die by conventional means, you need to have a 'finisher')

Sleep will auto-work, no-save, when they're at 0 hp.