What would it take to "convince" you to play a wizard with 15 intelligence? [Archive]

Boci

2020-09-20, 08:31 PM

So, thought experiment, I am wondering if people who would not normally play a wizard if they could only have 15 intelligence at character creation, could they be enticed to accepting it for an feat if that were locked behind a race. To that end, I have made 6 new feats for race options that under the regular rules cannot have 16 intelligence at char generation.

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Drow

Insidious Denial
Prerequisite: Elf with the drow subtace
It is not enough to be good at magic, Lolth demands that you take your opponent's skill away and mock them.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Add Counter spell to your spellbook. You may cast Counterspell without expending a spellslot. When you sucessfully Counter a spell in this manner the target must back a constiution save with a DC equal to your spell save or be poisoned for 1 minute as they periodically cough up small, black spiders. Once you have used this ability, you cannot use it again until you finish a long rest, but you may still cast Counterspell using your spellslots.

Vault of the Underdark
Prerequisite: Elf with the drow subtace
Deep beneath the earth, vast libraries are stocked with the fruit from centuries of raiding. Your own spellbook has benefitted from studying these plundered book, and conversations with mages from the surface who were in no position to decline indulging your academic curiosity.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Add two 1st level and two 2nd level spells to your spell book. Whenever you gain a level, add 3 new spells to your spellbook instead of 2. Furthermore you treat any spellbook in your possession as your own for the purpose of the time and gold required to make copies of the spell within.

Orc

Trinkets of the God
Prerequisite: Orc
Many orcs are very religious, for they can count on very little belong their diety and their own kin. You have spent a long with the priests and shamen of your clan, and have learned to accept their gifts.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additionlly an orc (and only an orc) capable of casting a divine spell may gift you a charm, usually an amulet or bracelet but it can be anything worn on the body. Before presenting it, they visualize a spell they can cast, imprinting it upon the trinket. The spell must be of a level equal to or lower than your intelligence modifer. For as long as the trinket remains in your possession you may prepare that spell as if it were in your spellbook. Once you recieve a charm you cannot recieve another one until a week has passed, and you may not have more than 2 charms on you at once. If you already have 2 charms, you must discard one before accepting another.

Spear of the Horde
Prerequisite: Orc
When the hoard marches you charge at the front, using your magic to break open the enemies.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additionlly the first spell you cast in an encounter, if you moved closer to a hostile creature before casting it, becomes a spell of terror. For a spell of terror you may reroll a number of damage dice equal to your intelligence modifer, and any creature who takes damage from it in the round you cast must succeed on a wisdom saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell DC) or be frightened for 1 round. In addition, you areinfused with the energy of the spell and gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage until the start of your next turn.

Dwarf

Runic Armour
Prerequisite: Dwarf, medium armour proficiency
Whilst arcane magic is not their speciality, those dwarves that do learn it often find an overlap with a more common pursuit of their kin.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. You gain proficiency with heavy armour. Additionally you may spend an hour marking your set of armour with your personal rune. Whilst wearing an a set of metal armour marked so, when you fail a constiution save to maintain concentration, the spell does not immediatly end, but rather lasts until the end of your next turn.

Banisher
Prerequisite: Dwarf
Dwarves do not appreciated outsiders invading their home, doubly so if the outsider in question is not even from the material realm.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additonally whenever you target a creature with a spell, or include one in the area of one of your spells, if that creature has the Magic Resistance trait, you may have them lose it for one minute. Finally, you gain advantage on saving throws against the magic of fiends and celestials.

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So, if normally you would much rather have 16 intelligence at char gen, would any of these feats be enough to have you make an exception? If so, which ones? If not, if there a tweak or change that could be made to the feat to make it qaulify? I'm interesting in what you think.

RossN

2020-09-20, 08:48 PM

FabulousFizban

2020-09-20, 09:26 PM

Whatever, i played a 6int wizard named brick

PhoenixPhyre

2020-09-20, 09:35 PM

I'm probably not the target audience, because a 15 INT is well within the playable range for me.

Sigreid

2020-09-20, 09:37 PM

I've willingly played a wizard with a lower int, so it wouldn't take much.

My question is, what is the reason you would want to coax someone into playing a wizard with lower stats if they aren't into it?

sithlordnergal

2020-09-20, 09:42 PM

...There's nothing you could do to convince me to play that.

Boci

2020-09-20, 09:47 PM

Honestly while they are flavourful those all sort of seem like cheating via boosting Intelligence up to 16 and we already have Feats that do that (Keen Mind, Linguist, Observant and Resilient in the PHB and Elven Accuracy in Xanathar's.) Also Vault of the Underdark seems overpowered compared with Magic Initiate or Drow High Magic.

Quite possibly. Whilst there are feats that already give you +1 intelligence, there are some people who dislike playing a wizard without being able to hit 16 at char gen, so those existing feats didn't seem to be enough. I'm wondering if these will be.

I'm probably not the target audience, because a 15 INT is well within the playable range for me.

Whilst the primary audience the people who wouldn't normally do that, I am also interested in hearing from people like you who are fine with a 15 int wizard. Do any of the feats look interesting to you, or would you be unlikely to take them?

My question is, what is the reason you would want to coax someone into playing a wizard with lower stats if they aren't into it?

I'm interested in whether people who dislike a 15 int wizard are against it on principle, or if there is something I can offer them that would make then feel that whilst 16 at char gen would be better, this ability seem impactful, interesting or fun enough that they will accept 15.

Edea

2020-09-20, 10:08 PM

...the ability to increase Intelligence past 20 (no limit), in a campaign that's guaranteed to hit 20th level.

Which is extremely unlikely, so...

Arkhios

2020-09-20, 10:12 PM

The standard array has been 15,14,13,12,10,8 since forever (at least according to my personal experience). Back in 3rd edition (probably earlier too; I started during 3.0 transition to 3.5) 15 int was the most you could get with player's handbook races when using standard array (which is more than fair to be used as a guideline). NONE of them gave a bonus to intelligence, not even elf, and wizard was elf's favored class (which wasn't only flavor, but a mechanical advantage as well). and ability score modifiers were the same as they are now (for example 14-15 gave you a +2 modifier, etc.)

It's not a surprise why grognards often find the newer editions to be "made for babies". Before, you just had to manage with lower scores. And it was fine, even so.

15 is more than enough, and wouldn't take anything to convince me to play a wizard with 15 intelligence. Heck, I would consider even a 14 to be competetive.

Hellpyre

2020-09-20, 10:15 PM

I feel like Spear of the Horde and Banisher are the only two that are reasonable as half-feats. The rest are very useful, enough that I'd say they contribute more interesting questions without the INT boost. (The counterspell one for the drow waffles a bit, but free counterspell plus poison is pretty solid. I might take that on a sorc to free up a spell known.)

bid

2020-09-20, 10:15 PM

Horde, hoard is a treasure.

Ashrym

2020-09-20, 10:16 PM

I don't need enticed. +2 vs +3 isn't that significant when it'll still be +5 later anyway. It's even hard to feel down the ASI when so many builds delay or lose one anyway.

What I look for is what the trade off is. Generally I am gaining something in the choice.

Zhorn

2020-09-20, 10:22 PM

already started off my wizard that way without a feat or other bonus, opting to put my highest stat elsewhere for story reasons.
15's good.

Joe the Rat

2020-09-20, 10:42 PM

I'm the type of player who would "eat" the +1 Int to throw runic armor on anyone even thinking about bring a dwarf spellcaster, because Heavy Armor prof and keeping your spells up after blowing concentration is about worth a feat as-is.

Spear of the Horde is fine, though the damage bump is meh. The general trend on caster feats has been to avoid damage bumps for other features, since damage is not the function of every spell. Maybe give it a BA move, a la the charger feat.

I'm not sure if I would shrug or tear my hair out if I was playing a non-drow wizard and someone else rolled in with an extra book spell per level and a universal spellbook passkey.

Out of curiosity, what do you have for Halfling Barbarians and Dwarf Rogues?

OldTrees1

2020-09-20, 10:46 PM

Whilst the primary audience the people who wouldn't normally do that, I am also interested in hearing from people like you who are fine with a 15 int wizard. Do any of the feats look interesting to you, or would you be unlikely to take them?
I am fine starting with a 15 Int if the race is interesting. I don't think a feat changes that.

Insidious Denial is +1 Int, +1 spell prepared and +1 3rd level slot per day but limited to only counterspell.
I prefer At Will >> Short Rest >> Long Rest abilities, this is not a level's worth of features at 7+ level, and this only works if there are enemy casters.

Vault of the Underdark is a big increase in spells known. That is an at will / passive ability so I am biased in favor of it. It is definitely on the short list of feats for a Wizard.

Trinkets of the God is add 1 divine spell to my spells known. Limited to my Int modifier. I could get Revivify for example. Lots of Wizard character concepts could work based on that. Probably a first pick feat for some characters.

Spear of the Horde is 1/encounter and gives a nice rider effect to that first spell. I could easily see an Orc charging in with a Fireball. Probably a first pick feat for some other characters.

Runic Armour is also nice. A thematic boost to AC. A first pick for some characters.

Banisher on the other hand is only nice at very high level. At that point the +1 Int is not that useful. If I take it at 12th it might be worth it.

Pex

2020-09-20, 11:10 PM

Optimizer me, there would have to be a half-feat I could take at 4th level that gives +1 Intelligence and an ability I really want. Alternatively DX or CO is also 15 to make both 16 at 4th level. Character race must be something I will have fun playing. This can include Variant Human to get a feat I really want. I also have to be in the right mood, which is a personal emotional thing. I lean more towards having at least one feat I really want, so Variant Human has the strongest lead to get the full feat I want and the half feat I'll have fun playing. Two feats is worth the price for me, accepting I have 15 IN 14 DX 14 CO.

opaopajr

2020-09-20, 11:14 PM

Well, if you wanna renegotiate the quality of table snacks & drinks... :smallamused:

Zhorn

2020-09-20, 11:20 PM

Well, if you wanna renegotiate the quality of table snacks & drinks... :smallamused:

Now we're talking.
Let's cover those true player priorities

Segev

2020-09-21, 12:10 AM

I'm probably not the target audience, here. In 3.5, I would fight for the highest casting stat I could get, and in 5e, I will certainly push it as high as I can, but in 3.5, this could dictate a race (or at least strongly influence it), while in 5e, I'm more likely to let it slide due to the lessened importance of numeric supremacy.

I'm far more influenced in character inspiration by traits or by my "vision" of the character than by stat bonuses, though yes, if I don't have a build-concept I want to use a trait for, I would be pushed to a race that gave the "right" bonus for my build.

A 15 in Int is perfectly serviceable on most wizards in 5e. I'd go for the 16 from a high elf if I wanted to play an elf and didn't see something specific in Drow or Wood Elves I wanted, and if I really cared nothing about my race traits, I'd probably go gnome for the +2 to Int, but if I had a concept that cared about racial traits or about race as a concept hook, I wouldn't bat an eye at having no bonus at all to Int on a wizard (which, in elite array, would mean I'd probably put the 15 there, though maybe I'd go as low as the 14 if I really, really wanted a 16 in whatever the race gave a +1 to).

If I wanted to try out an armored single-class wizard, I'd have little problem playing a Mountain Dwarf despite no Int bonus from race. I'd be able to tank Strength and still have no penalty, and I could consider Constitution being on the lower end of my priorities because of the +2 bonus to it.

Christew

2020-09-21, 12:19 AM

Segev

2020-09-21, 12:30 AM

Definitely overtuned for any of my tables, but as a thought experiment I like it. Kudos to some interesting and flavorful feats. This actually makes me think that everyone gets a feat at level 1 + race based half ASI feats would have been a more compelling approach to diverse builds than the new character creation rules.

Just giving a feat or ASI at level 1 to everyone would be a better approach, though you'd have to think hard about what to do with variant humans, because 3/4 of the reason variant humans are preferred almost universally to base humans is that base humans feel underwhelming compared to literally any other race with their bigger stat mods and cool racial traits. You could just allow variant humans an ASI + feat or 2 feats, but that's probably too much. And a standard human + feat or ASI still feels like it's behind any other race + [feat or ASI]. At least to me.

I know I am not always agreed with on standard humans being meh enough that they're underwhelming. So perhaps standard humans with an ASI or feat would be just fine next to all other races getting an ASI or feat at level 1.

Christew

2020-09-21, 12:56 AM

Just giving a feat or ASI at level 1 to everyone would be a better approach, though you'd have to think hard about what to do with variant humans, because 3/4 of the reason variant humans are preferred almost universally to base humans is that base humans feel underwhelming compared to literally any other race with their bigger stat mods and cool racial traits. You could just allow variant humans an ASI + feat or 2 feats, but that's probably too much. And a standard human + feat or ASI still feels like it's behind any other race + [feat or ASI]. At least to me.

I know I am not always agreed with on standard humans being meh enough that they're underwhelming. So perhaps standard humans with an ASI or feat would be just fine next to all other races getting an ASI or feat at level 1.
If everyone has an initial feat you could abandon Variant Human entirely and use race gated feats to adjust everything, including standard human.

Hmm, this has my wheels turning, but feels entirely off topic for this thread. May do a write up in the next few days.

Unoriginal

2020-09-21, 04:34 AM

I don't need convincing to play a caster with 15 in their primats stat. On the other hand, I don't think I'd want to play a character who get either of those feats as a perk.

LudicSavant

2020-09-21, 04:43 AM

So, thought experiment, I am wondering if people who would not normally play a wizard if they could only have 15 intelligence at character creation, could they be enticed to accepting it for an feat if that were locked behind a race.

If it's helpful, there are a couple of races I can think of that I'd consider playing as a Wizard that don't get an Int bonus. They are...

Goblin
Mark of Healing Halfling
...That's all that's leaping to mind. Well, at least for things I'd play for mechanical reasons anyways.

The first one, Goblin, is a 30ft move speed small race with a pseudo-Cunning Action at-will, Darkvision, bonuses to secondary and tertiary stats (Dex/Con), and a little damage booster. The big attraction is the pseudo-Cunning Action, which can fundamentally change your gameplay and let you do stuff like Cast -> Hide each round.

The second one, Mark of Healing Halfling, basically opens you up to being a strong healer (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24670442&postcount=496). Basically it gives you a bunch of key spells known that open up a whole new playstyle for the Wizard.

I suspect some people might say "Mountain Dwarf" but I consider Githyanki, Hobgoblin, and even VHuman to basically do the Mountain Dwarf Wizard's trick better. (Githyanki gets Medium Armor but an Int bonus. Hobgoblin has an ideal statline and strong features and can jump into Moderately Armored at 4. VHuman can end up with +2 Dex / +1 Int / +1 Con and Medium Armor + Shield by level 4, to a Mountain Dwarf's +2 Str / +2 Con / +2 Int / Medium Armor and no Shield by level 4).

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Edit:
As a semi-related note: though this doesn't apply specifically to Wizards (because this race already has an Int bonus) but on my list of "races that I might take even if they have the wrong stats for the class" there's also "Yuan-Ti."

Mr Adventurer

2020-09-21, 04:53 AM

I don't understand, if I start with Int 15 and take one of these feats for free then I have Int 16? That's well within normal parameters?

Edit: oh, the feat isn't free, but becomes available at 4th level like normal? Yeah, I would do this.

Edit 2: be worth considering multiclasses too. Orc EK/War Mage?

LudicSavant

2020-09-21, 04:54 AM

I don't understand, if I start with Int 15 and take one of these feats for free then I have Int 16? That's well within normal parameters?

I think the difference is that you'd get to 16 at level 4, whereas a character who started with 16 could bump to 18 at level 4. Is that correct, Boci?

Anonymouswizard

2020-09-21, 05:25 AM

All I'd need to convince me to play an 8 INT Wizard or Artificer is a story reason and the chance to pick out non stat-reliant spells. Or a lifepath system that would give me a story and interesting gear and spells related to that story.

Sindal

2020-09-21, 06:09 AM

Of the options granted? None

I'll play a 15 int wizard ,if that is the hand I have been dealt in this example, without much complaint.

If given the choice between this and a wizard with superior ASI instead, i'd pick stats so I can focus on being a wizard.

Sigreid

2020-09-21, 06:53 AM

I'm interested in whether people who dislike a 15 int wizard are against it on principle, or if there is something I can offer them that would make then feel that whilst 16 at char gen would be better, this ability seem impactful, interesting or fun enough that they will accept 15.

Fair enough. I'll bow out as I'm not someone who can contribute to that question.

Valmark

2020-09-21, 07:17 AM

You couldn't pay me enough to play a character with odd scores, unless I HAVE TO and am planning on evening out as soon as possible.

If I can't start with 16 because I'm not playing a +1/+2 int race then you bet I'm getting a 14, homewever if the question is really "Would you play a 15 or less int wizard" then yeah. I'm usually picking my race and my class without connections between them, so it happens. That said, half-elves and tieflings have always been my go-to race for that +2 charisma and both of them have "pick-whatever" +1s (well, tiefling has a subrace for each stat) so I never need to start with less then 16 in my primary score unless I want a specific race for once.

No feat is going to change this, regardless of the benefits offered. I'd rather start with 14 and get +2 int then start with 15 and get a half-feat.

RossN

2020-09-21, 07:39 AM

clash

2020-09-21, 08:31 AM

For myself I would play less than 16 starting int as a wizard only if my character concept required it.

For example, if I am intentionally playing a wizard who doesn't rely on int then I would probably just dump it. If I am playing a wizard who the concept is a wizard in heavy armor, then maybe although I might just multiclass cleric to get the armor instead.

If I am planning to play a wizard that relies on int and doesn't need to fulfill very specific requirements for the concept then none of those feats are going to convince me to play a race that doesn't get my int to 16. Starting with 15 means level 12 before maxing the stat and essentially being 4 levels behind on stat the entire time before that. Most games I play don't even get to level 12 which means never catching up.

I personally prefer to start with 17 in my main stat so I can take a related half feat for flavor at level 4 without falling behind.

KorvinStarmast

2020-09-21, 08:44 AM

...There's nothing you could do to convince me to play that. Me either (the penalty on 'spells prepared' is enough to annoy the dickens out of me).

For the OP:
So, if normally you would much rather have 16 intelligence at char gen, would any of these feats be enough to have you make an exception? None of them, for two reasons. The first is the limitation on spells prepared.

2. I realize you put a lot of thought into this, but my lack of interest in racially based feats only grows with time. I think that XGtE made a mistake by going there. I am "egalitarian" when it comes to feats: I want all feats open to all PC races.

FWIW: It is my opinion that that Skilled and Prodigy ought to be merged into a single feat (boost some skills and offer one expertise at the cost of a feat) with racial restrictions removed.

Boci

2020-09-21, 01:09 PM

Okay, some interesting answers. Some people don't care for them, others seem interesting in trying them, no one so far has explicitly said this would be enough to make the difference for them.

Banisher seems to stand out as the weakest, there appears to be some disagreement on Insidious Denial and Spear of the Horde, they might be weaker too and certainly more specialized, and perhaps ID is better for a sorceror, so they don't have to burn a spell known on Counterspell. I did consider making it once per short rest insteadof long, but that felt too powerful.

It seems to be agreed that Runic Armour and especially Vault of the Underdark are the most powerful options, to the point that VotU may even be good enough to make another wizard in the group feel bad.

Trinkets of the God is add 1 divine spell to my spells known. Limited to my Int modifier. I could get Revivify for example. Lots of Wizard character concepts could work based on that. Probably a first pick feat for some characters.

2 divine spells, you can have up to 2 charms on you.

Edit 2: be worth considering multiclasses too. Orc EK/War Mage?

Yeah, multiclassing would be allowed with these feats, so an Eldritch Knight / War Mage could work.

I don't need convincing to play a caster with 15 in their primats stat. On the other hand, I don't think I'd want to play a character who get either of those feats as a perk.

The feats wouldn't be free, you'd still have to take them instead of a stat increase at level 4. Just checking since there appeared to be some misunderstanding about that in my post.

Optimizer me, there would have to be a half-feat I could take at 4th level that gives +1 Intelligence and an ability I really want.

And do any of these feats tick that box?

For the OP: None of them, for two reasons. The first is the limitation on spells prepared.

2. I realize you put a lot of thought into this, but my lack of interest in racially based feats only grows with time. I think that XGtE made a mistake by going there. I am "egalitarian" when it comes to feats: I want all feats open to all PC races.

No problem, you don't have to like them just because I spent time on them, and your answer for why not is useful for me understanding player motivation. I can certainly understand the dislike for race specific feats.

Pex

2020-09-21, 02:50 PM

And do any of these feats tick that box?

Maybe Runic Armor because I have a bias about AC and Concentration.

PhantomSoul

2020-09-21, 03:35 PM

Whatever, i played a 6int wizard named brick

Did they survive to level 13 to learn to conjure a Brick House (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Magnificent%20Mansion#content)?

AvalancheSpring

2020-09-21, 04:07 PM

Banisher seems to stand out as the weakest, there appears to be some disagreement on Insidious Denial and Spear of the Horde, they might be weaker too and certainly more specialized

Both of these feats are extremely strong - especially Spear of the Horde.

Insidious Denial gives an Level 3 extra spell prepared which is one of the most useful in the game, and an extra slot. Compare to any of the existing "get more spells" feats - it beats the pants off of Magic Initiate, Aberrant Dragonmark. The UA feats (Fey Touched / Shadow Touched) are close.

Spear of the horde is a huge game changer. It turns any AOE damage spell to an *uber* opener, with boosted damage, damage resistance, and a concentration-free one turn fear. Put this on an Evoker and you don't even need to win initiative. Just open with Shatter or Fireball or even Thunderwave; unless you get very unlucky with fear saves, the targets are immune, or the enemies are coming in waves, it's basically a battle-winning opener for free (in that an evoker will use an AOE blast in most significant fights anyway, and this makes it vastly better).

As written, the fear even works every round for duration efforts (though that may not be intended) - say hello to flaming sphere, heat metal. Heck put it on a priest for Spirit Guardians - who cares about the Int bonus when you are walking zone of damage, slow, and fear. But to be clear, it's broken even on single round effects.

And do any of these feats tick that box?

If the point is a good half-feat for a caster, you already have solutions in the UA feats. For Orcs you can do Shadow-Touched; for Drow, Shadow-Touched or Fey-Touched.

Use them as a template and make something similarly thematic for Dwarves (e.g. Earth-Touched: +1 Caster stat; Spike Growth and your choice of L1 transmutation or abjuration spells, and a free slot to cast each).

You don't need to make stuff as complicated and powerful as most of these feats.

Alternately, you can just use the pending rules in Tasha's to make more races viable.

Boci

2020-09-22, 06:07 PM

Maybe Runic Armor because I have a bias about AC and Concentration.

Seems to be a strong one, several others have mentioned it. There's a lot packed into it.

Both of these feats are extremely strong - especially Spear of the Horde.

Insidious Denial gives an Level 3 extra spell prepared which is one of the most useful in the game, and an extra slot. Compare to any of the existing "get more spells" feats - it beats the pants off of Magic Initiate, Aberrant Dragonmark. The UA feats (Fey Touched / Shadow Touched) are close.

I'm going off what others said. OldTrees1 didn't seem too impressed with Insidious Denial (though they siad they dislike long rest abilities), and Hellpyre mentioned Spear of the Horde being one of the weaker options.

As written, the fear even works every round for duration efforts (though that may not be intended) - say hello to flaming sphere, heat metal. Heck put it on a priest for Spirit Guardians - who cares about the Int bonus when you are walking zone of damage, slow, and fear. But to be clear, it's broken even on single round effects.

Good catch for multi round spells, I fixed that. As for it still being broken I'm not sure. No one else has said any where broken. I'm not sure how fear for 1 round means winning the encounter.

If the point is a good half-feat for a caster, you already have solutions in the UA feats. For Orcs you can do Shadow-Touched; for Drow, Shadow-Touched or Fey-Touched.

But those weren't enough to convince some people to play a wizard without a racial intelligence bonus. For some these feats still aren't enough.

Alternately, you can just use the pending rules in Tasha's to make more races viable.

Probaby won't be using those rules. That's one of the reasons I made these.

Warpiglet-7

2020-09-22, 06:34 PM

I'm probably not the target audience, because a 15 INT is well within the playable range for me.

My thoughts as well. I play characters with a 15 attack stat frequently. It’s fine.

Mr. Wonderful

2020-09-22, 06:35 PM

I'm the type of player who would "eat" the +1 Int to throw runic armor on anyone even thinking about bring a dwarf spellcaster, because Heavy Armor prof and keeping your spells up after blowing concentration is about worth a feat as-is.

This is something I've been investigating, though in PHB a Mountain Dwarf gives light and medium proficiency, not heavy. Still, breastplate or half plate will do the trick unless you're willing to spend on the Heavy Armor feat, which also gives +1 STR.

The trick here is to be casting spells that don't rely so much on DC. Go for buffs and utility rather than damage, and when you do take a damage spell get one of the "to hit" variety. Abjuration spells especially, and the Abjurer school seems to lean into this sort of wizard.

Which makes sense when you think about dwarves. A whole bunch of martial characters, a few clerics, and the one wizard there to add buffs and counterspell the enemy.

OldTrees1

2020-09-22, 07:16 PM

I'm going off what others said. OldTrees1 didn't seem too impressed with Insidious Denial (though they said they dislike long rest abilities), and Hellpyre mentioned Spear of the Horde being one of the weaker options.

To elaborate
1 extra 3rd level slot at 4th level? Even if it is limited to one useful but very niche spell? A solid choice.
1 extra 3rd level slot at 8th level? That is only used if you encounter a spellcaster? Eh, starting to sound like +1 spell known and not +1 spell slot.
1 extra 3rd level slot at 12th level that can only cast a niche spell, and now usually does so at a 50%+ failure rate?. Yeah, now it sounds like +1 spell known and not like +1 spell slot.
This feat at 16th level? Oh, it is +1 spell known.

So even if you like long rest abilities, Insidious Denial quickly drops off in utility.

And this is from someone that is already willing to have a 15 Int Wizard, so my standard for these feats is low. But this is from someone that does not like long rest abilities, so I am biased against long rest ability feats. So take this advice with the correctly measured amount of salt.

You might notice that Hellpyre considered it in part because Sorcerers get too few spells known.

------

I think I agree with Hellpyre that Spear of the Horde feat fits as a half feat. I do think it is a very solid half feat, but I think it deserves to keep the +1 Int. I just imagine an Orc charging the enemy, casting a fireball on themselves (probably with fire resistance) and roaring. Casting it on yourself is not required, it just sounds flavorful and reminds me of some AoEs that radiated out from the caster.

cutlery

2020-09-23, 09:46 AM

Does starting as wizard with the plan to mix blade singer and arcane trickster later count?

15 int seems pretty likely with point buy and non-tasha's race choices; elven accuracy for +1 int later (at wizard 4) sounds good; and throw the rest of ASIs into dex until 20 (rogue 8). The next ASI at rogue 10 could be a feat, or 2 more int, depending, but with that build you could largely avoid spell attack rolls if you wanted to.

No extra convincing required.

Kurt Kurageous

2020-09-23, 10:38 AM

I'm playing one that started that way right now, a halfling divination wizard.

Charm person (1st) and suggestion (2nd) are really powerful when you know (portent) they are going to fail. This does require getting one low roll out of two for the portent, but it's been very useful to get around the low spell DC of 12 because INT+2.

"I suggest you move as fast as you can way from here." autofailed means the target is going to try and run for 8 hours. When the spell ends, if they are not dead from exhaustion, they are in no shape to return in the next 8 hours.

Not saying that this is a failsafe thing (charm resistance/immunity), but its much more powerful than I expected.

He's currently level 8 and becoming more and more able to change the course of a fight than a fireball would.

Boci

2020-09-23, 07:33 PM

To elaborate
1 extra 3rd level slot at 4th level? Even if it is limited to one useful but very niche spell? A solid choice.
1 extra 3rd level slot at 8th level? That is only used if you encounter a spellcaster? Eh, starting to sound like +1 spell known and not +1 spell slot.
1 extra 3rd level slot at 12th level that can only cast a niche spell, and now usually does so at a 50%+ failure rate?. Yeah, now it sounds like +1 spell known and not like +1 spell slot.
This feat at 16th level? Oh, it is +1 spell known.

So even if you like long rest abilities, Insidious Denial quickly drops off in utility.

That's a fair analysis I feel. I take it you don't value the poison for 1 minute too much? Its not the best on casters, but may matter for something. Gishes would especially suffer from that condition and be less likely to be casting a 4+ level spell, but I don't know how many monsters are printed as gishes, so likely DM dependant certainly.

You might notice that Hellpyre considered it in part because Sorcerers get too few spells known.

True. I got the impression they would be willing to take it on a drow wizard, but they did mention sorceror specifically. That largely works out to be the same, you'll be one stat increase behind a "regular" sorceror, only this time it will be from level 4-12 instead of level 1-12.

Runic Armour was also mentioned as "worth it without the stat increase". So presumably on clerics, or sorcerors (though for sorcerors you'll be two ASIs behind).

I think I agree with Hellpyre that Spear of the Horde feat fits as a half feat. I do think it is a very solid half feat, but I think it deserves to keep the +1 Int. I just imagine an Orc charging the enemy, casting a fireball on themselves (probably with fire resistance) and roaring. Casting it on yourself is not required, it just sounds flavorful and reminds me of some AoEs that radiated out from the caster.

I like the feel of that Spear. I wanted it to require the use of Aggresive, but I couldn't figure out how to word it so without making it awkward, so I'm okay with simply require any amount of movement towards a hostile creature beforehand.

He's currently level 8 and becoming more and more able to change the course of a fight than a fireball would.

Yeah, though that has little to do with him being a halfling.

This is something I've been investigating, though in PHB a Mountain Dwarf gives light and medium proficiency, not heavy. Still, breastplate or half plate will do the trick unless you're willing to spend on the Heavy Armor feat, which also gives +1 STR.

Joe the Rat was talking about Runic Armour, which does give heavy armour proficiency, though yes if you don't mind being a little weaker, (or are using Tasha'a varient rules), a straight up PHB dwarvf can make a cool army caster if you like that kind of thing. As I said, Runic Armour was me trying to sweeten the deal for players who currently didn't feel the concept was supported enough with the existing options (-Tasha's varient rules).

OldTrees1

2020-09-23, 07:49 PM

That's a fair analysis I feel. I take it you don't value the poison for 1 minute too much? Its not the best on casters, but may matter for something. Gishes would especially suffer from that condition and be less likely to be casting a 4+ level spell, but I don't know how many monsters are printed as gishes, so likely DM dependant certainly.
The poison for 1 minute only happens, the first time, when I encounter a caster, that casts a spell, that I spend a reaction to counter, and succeed on countering the spell. All to apply poison (a mostly skill/martial debuff) to the caster.

All those qualifiers get in the way. So regardless of how I feel about poison, it is cut to ribbons after adjusting for the qualifiers. I would be banking on facing 1+ gish per day just to get a chance at a chance for the poison to be relevant.

True. I got the impression they would be willing to take it on a drow wizard, but they did mention sorceror specifically. That largely works out to be the same, you'll be one stat increase behind a "regular" sorceror, only this time it will be from level 4-12 instead of level 1-12.

I did not get that impression, nor anything contradicting that impression. For me, I think Wizards get sufficient spells known that they can be judicious over whether they want a +1 spell known.

Runic Armour was also mentioned as "worth it without the stat increase". So presumably on clerics, or sorcerors (though for sorcerors you'll be two ASIs behind).

Yeah I could see it as such, maybe.

I like the feel of that Spear. I wanted it to require the use of Aggresive, but I couldn't figure out how to word it so without making it awkward, so I'm okay with simply require any amount of movement towards a hostile creature beforehand.

The movement is very flexible for characterization. That was a better design.

Lyracian

2020-09-24, 01:45 PM

...There's nothing you could do to convince me to play that.

Ditto (except maybe cash)

Boci

2020-09-25, 06:45 PM

The poison for 1 minute only happens, the first time, when I encounter a caster, that casts a spell, that I spend a reaction to counter, and succeed on countering the spell. All to apply poison (a mostly skill/martial debuff) to the caster.

All those qualifiers get in the way. So regardless of how I feel about poison, it is cut to ribbons after adjusting for the qualifiers. I would be banking on facing 1+ gish per day just to get a chance at a chance for the poison to be relevant.

So are you saying Insidious Denial is weak compared to the other feats in the OP, or weak in general? If you have a drow wizard who isn't taking Vault of the Underdark for whatever reason, is Insidual Denial a decent choice, or do you think the wizard would best avoid, assuming drow is a given. What should they take instead? Shadow-touched? Put 14 in intelligence and go with an ASI at level 4?

Hellpyre

2020-09-25, 09:30 PM

For what it's worth, I'll address what makes me feel Spear isn't hugely powerful:

Spear of the Horde
Prerequisite: Orc
When the hoard marches you charge at the front, using your magic to break open the enemies.
Benefit: You increase your intelligence score by 1. Additionlly the first spell you cast in an encounter, if you moved closer to a hostile creature before casting it, becomes a spell of terror. For a spell of terror you may reroll a number of damage dice equal to your intelligence modifer, and any creature who takes damage from it in the round you cast must succeed on a wisdom saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell DC) or be frightened for 1 round. In addition, you are infused with the energy of the spell and gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage until the start of your next turn.

It has a lot of qualifications and requirements. If you don't cast a blasting spell at the start of each encounter, it does very little. It can still give you basic damage resistance, but only if you moved into combat. Neither of those are ideal for most wizards. Don't get me wrong, an evoker would love it, but if you open with a buff or control spell, you waste the feat for that encounter. Even if you are an evoker, basically getting a 1 sorcery point metamagic isn't huge, so you are looking at the fear effect. Which lasts a single round, and requires them to fail a save (possibly a second fail in a row, if you aren't using a save-for-half evocation). Applying disadvantage for a turn is good, but it isn't good enough to be a feat on its own. Especially for a Wizard. As a half-feat it is good, but if it delayed your attribute progression it wouldn't be worth it.

Yakmala

2020-09-25, 10:01 PM

I assumed when I read the thread title that you were proposing that the Wizard be locked to 15 intelligence their entire career. I'd be fine with that under the right roleplay circumstances.

But instead, I find it's 15 at the start, and actually 16 when you count a +1 Int feat.

Which to me, is a perfectly normal and acceptable starting value for any primary attribute.

So, honestly, not sure what the point of this question is?

Are there really folks out there that wouldn't consider playing a Wizard with a starting Intelligence below 17?

Hellpyre

2020-09-25, 10:08 PM

OldTrees1

2020-09-26, 09:18 AM

So are you saying Insidious Denial is weak compared to the other feats in the OP, or weak in general? If you have a drow wizard who isn't taking Vault of the Underdark for whatever reason, is Insidual Denial a decent choice, or do you think the wizard would best avoid, assuming drow is a given. What should they take instead? Shadow-touched? Put 14 in intelligence and go with an ASI at level 4?

All of my comparisons are to the general value of an ASI/Feat slot (based on the opportunity cost of losing 1 level's worth of features). So my standard is a bit lower than the standard you intended (because I would already be willing to have a 15 Int Wizard so I don't need the feat to be above par).

So for a Drow Wizard I would be more likely to take +2 Int, +1 Int/+1 Other, or another feat I was interested in rather than Insidious Denial (Resilient Con for example). For example: 15 Int/ 14 Con -> +1Int/+1Con -> Resilient Con -> +2 Int.

Oh and Hellpyre does raise a good point about the limitations of Spear of the Horde (thanks Hellpyre). I was definitely thinking about it in the context of a Wizard that started off taking a step forward (maybe even just 5ft for that qualifier) and casting Fireball as their initial opener (addressing the other 2 qualifiers). And I might have overrated the effect of Frightened. It might split the enemy by making only some able to advance but I had misremembered Frightened 5E as Frightened 3E.

That would downgrade it from a "first pick for some characters" to a "flavor pick for some characters". I might have an Orc Evoker take it as their 8th or 12th ASI. So it is subpar but still acceptable, that means it could definitely be buffed without becoming overpowered. (Honestly just adding the move away clause for that 1rd would be nice.)

Part of the difference in these evaluations is 1) the PC is in control of fulfilling the qualifiers for Spear of the Horde and 2) it is 1/encounter. They can fulfill it every combat. Insidious Denial on the other hand requires the DM to fulfill the qualifiers and only works once per day. What if the 1/day poison worked on any reaction spell? Shield -> Poison attacker? Then the feat gives you a niche reaction and gives you a 1/day reward for using a reaction.

opaopajr

2020-09-26, 09:40 AM

The OP has made it clearer in follow-up posts that the proposal is for feats available in place of ASIs normally, not at chargen, but only available with <15 INT at level 1.

Honestly, it is an interesting design space: Prerequisite -- [STAT] <X at Y Lvl. You could even play with Prereq -- [STAT] <X.

It is a counter-intuitive space, granted, as we think higher better always & forever (more should be rewarded with MOAR!). But as a design space it IS interesting. Could make for some intriguing setting foundation by editing the Feats list and supplanting some for these "Joe Average Blessings."

Hellpyre

2020-09-26, 09:43 AM

1) the PC is in control of fulfilling the qualifiers for Spear of the Horde and 2) it does not run out. They can fulfill it every combat. Insidious Denial on the other hand requires the DM to fulfill the qualifiers and only works once per day. What if the 1/day poison worked on any reaction spell? Shield -> Poison attacker? Then the feat gives you a niche reaction and gives you a 1/day reward for using a reaction.

I think the only real problem there is an issue of how to word it. Do you separate it off into something like "Additionally, once per day, when you cast a spell as a reaction, you may cause the creature to make a Constitution save (save DC equals your Spell Save DC). On a failure that creature is poisoned for 1 minute as they occasionally cough up black spiders."? It might run into some odd reactions with War Caster and OAs then, but it's probably a solid upgrade that doesn't break the feat (even if it messes with the thematics some). But I still like that the feat saves you both a spell known and a spell prepared (since you should generally want Counterspell available to cast just in case every day, and the feat explicitly allows you to cast Counterspell with it). Especially since if you go higher up the levels of optimization, where not starting with a +3 to INT becomes less and less appealing, spellcasters trend towards being more and more dangerous even as non-casters trend towards being less dangerous for the most part.

The other way I'd say to go about it is to lean into the niche harder. Replace "in this way" with "with this feat" and you add the rider onto all your counterspells throughout the day. Still requires enemy casters to be useful, but it is always useful when you do fight them.

Hand_of_Vecna

2020-09-26, 01:59 PM

Spear of the Horde is both strong and cool. I'd use it. Runic Armor seems pretty strong, but it's just more AC I'd already feel like an armored mage in half-plate it isn't altering how a dwarf wizard plays.

I think the reason you see so few low stat wizards in 5e is that cantrips are such solid filler actions. You could get a high strength or sex and use the attack action but then it seems like you would want to be a Eldritch Knight instead.

Hellpyre

2020-09-26, 02:08 PM

You could get a high strength or sex and use the attack action but then it seems like you would want to be a Eldritch Knight instead.

Goodness, would be Charisma or misspelled Dex?

OldTrees1

2020-09-26, 08:30 PM

Goodness, would be Charisma or misspelled Dex?

No, clearly that is high Dex, Con, Wis, & Cha.
Yeah it is probably Dex. Similar typo to Eex, Fex, & Cex.

Boci

2020-09-28, 08:28 AM

I think the only real problem there is an issue of how to word it. Do you separate it off into something like "Additionally, once per day, when you cast a spell as a reaction, you may cause the creature to make a Constitution save (save DC equals your Spell Save DC). On a failure that creature is poisoned for 1 minute as they occasionally cough up black spiders."? It might run into some odd reactions with War Caster and OAs then, but it's probably a solid upgrade that doesn't break the feat (even if it messes with the thematics some). But I still like that the feat saves you both a spell known and a spell prepared (since you should generally want Counterspell available to cast just in case every day, and the feat explicitly allows you to cast Counterspell with it). Especially since if you go higher up the levels of optimization, where not starting with a +3 to INT becomes less and less appealing, spellcasters trend towards being more and more dangerous even as non-casters trend towards being less dangerous for the most part.

The other way I'd say to go about it is to lean into the niche harder. Replace "in this way" with "with this feat" and you add the rider onto all your counterspells throughout the day. Still requires enemy casters to be useful, but it is always useful when you do fight them.

Yeah, I do wonder how poisoning someone because your shield spell caused their attack to miss you works. Its magic, so anything can work at a pinch, but its not elegent as poisoning someone ebcause you successfully countered their spell.

Still, ideas to improve:
Allow them to cast counterspell without preparing it, always poisoning them if successful. As noted, poisoning usually isn't the best condition to inflict on casters, but it can still have its uses
Expand it to include more spells like shield, possibly all reaction spells

That would downgrade it from a "first pick for some characters" to a "flavor pick for some characters". I might have an Orc Evoker take it as their 8th or 12th ASI. So it is subpar but still acceptable, that means it could definitely be buffed without becoming overpowered. (Honestly just adding the move away clause for that 1rd would be nice.)

That could work, modify it off command, having the text read "must succeed on a wisdom saving throw (with a DC equal to your spell DC) or be struck with fear, spending its next turn moving away from you by the fastest available means. Creatures immune to the frightened condition are unaffected by this (but still take damage)". And yes, they could certainly qualify for the feet by moving 5ft forwards. They have moved closer to a hostile creature.

Honestly, it is an interesting design space: Prerequisite -- [STAT] <X at Y Lvl. You could even play with Prereq -- [STAT] <X.

It is a counter-intuitive space, granted, as we think higher better always & forever (more should be rewarded with MOAR!). But as a design space it IS interesting. Could make for some intriguing setting foundation by editing the Feats list and supplanting some for these "Joe Average Blessings."

Whilst it could work, cutting the racial requirements does lose a lot of flavour. Spear of the Horde is an orc feat, drawing on traditional representations of the race in the game. Removing that and making it require intelligence 15, what would the name be? Opening Salvo?

Goodness, would be Charisma or misspelled Dex?

The rouge is a primarily sex based class in D&D...