How would a Neutral Drow city be run/ruled?

[RossN]

I'm very fond of the Drow and I've been batting around ideas for a significant non-evil Drow presence in a world I'm thinking up. One aspect I'd like to explore is a Drow city that has abandonded Lolth - or been abandoned depending on how you look at it.

Basically the city was an old and distant outpost of the main Drow civilization that was deliberately sacrificed during a war in the Underdark. The outpost managed to survive and eventually thrive after a fashion but even after several generations there is bad blood between this city and 'standard' Drow - and Lolth and her clergy have never been forgiven and the rest of the Drow pantheon probably aren't much more popular.

As I've said these Drow are Neutral (not goody two shoes - they are still an ambitious city state) and probably less xenophobic than traditional Drow. At the same time they still live underground and are matriarchal (which to me seems like a strong cultural trait of the Drow regardless of alignment or religion.)

Any suggestions on who would lead this society? Merchant families? Sorcerers? A military aristocracy?

[cutlery]

Depends on their deity, or if they even structure their society around a single deity the way the more well-known Lolth-worshiping cities do.


They could be lawful or not; be oriented around truth or profit or art, anything really.

They would, however, likely need a strong military force, as Lolth would want the other Drow in her sway to wipe them from the map.

[Boci]

I'd cut out the "underdark city abandoned in the war years ago". Don't connect them to the established drow culture, give them an entirely fresh slate.

So, what do drow have? They're elves, but they have superior darkvision and light sensistivity, +1 charisma, proficiency with rapiers, shortsword and handcrossbows and some magic.

So, clearly this race lives underground. Technically they live in an enviroment where there isn't much light, so if you're completly freebrewing they could live on the surface of a world where the sun never rises, but for simplicities sake we'll say its a regular world and they live underground. The handcrossbow thing can at a small stretch be extended to this, underground caves can often be craft, a smaller range weapon could come in handy, especially one you can shoot onehanded, you never know when you'll need to take a shot whilst dangling off a wall.

Still, training some portions of the population this way does indicate a martial bend to your civilization. The +1 charisma implies either some form of charismatic acestry like the tiefling or dragonborn, or they are naturally quite social, perhaps politics is fairly important in their society.

That leaves their magic. Its charisma based so probably not book learned. Now the spells they get, dancing light, fairy fire and darkness, are mostly to do with vision, so maybe this is from the fey, they do have fey ancestry as a trait. Alternativly maybe this is a manifestation of their religion, which rites performed on most level of society cuasing many children to grow up with inherant magic.

[Vogie]

I actually have created something like this in one of my games - my WDH game had a player who wanted to be a half-elf, but half-drow in story. So I created a minor drow merchant family that basically set themselves out as making connections and essentially building a real estate empire, marrying into an half-elvish family to create a no-raiding zone. The surface and dark elves worked out a symbiotic relationship, each using the other's abilities to get their opponents out of the way. They were still Drow - while they still worshipped Lolth, they had slaves (provided by the surface family), and were a strict, brutal matriarchy.

If you expand that family into a full city, I'd expect it to be a very Spartan-esque. The brutality, matriarchy, and whatnot would still be there, but it wouldn't spill over in the ways that Lolth leans them towards sacrifice and slavery. They'd have to always be vigilant - not only from outsiders, but also the more traditional Drow. If you wanted to tone them down, maybe look at the Adem from Patrick Rothfuss' A Wise Man's Fear, which is also a matriarchal martial society.

[Connington]

I'll plug LudicSavant's take (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20485298&postcount=2) on a more functional re-imagining of Drow ecology and culture (and a conception of Lolth that isn't "Evil Sexy Spider Domme"). It makes the most sense if you interpret the traditional lore on Drow and Lolth as xenophobic propaganda, but it could also represent a breakaway culture.

[RossN]

Depends on their deity, or if they even structure their society around a single deity the way the more well-known Lolth-worshiping cities do.


They could be lawful or not; be oriented around truth or profit or art, anything really.

They would, however, likely need a strong military force, as Lolth would want the other Drow in her sway to wipe them from the map.
Good points.

I'd sort of imagined they'd turned their backs on the traditional Drow deities but that doesn't mean they can't adopt 'new' deities.



I'd cut out the "underdark city abandoned in the war years ago". Don't connect them to the established drow culture, give them an entirely fresh slate.

So, what do drow have? They're elves, but they have superior darkvision and light sensistivity, +1 charisma, proficiency with rapiers, shortsword and handcrossbows and some magic.

So, clearly this race lives underground. Technically they live in an enviroment where there isn't much light, so if you're completly freebrewing they could live on the surface of a world where the sun never rises, but for simplicities sake we'll say its a regular world and they live underground. The handcrossbow thing can at a small stretch be extended to this, underground caves can often be craft, a smaller range weapon could come in handy, especially one you can shoot onehanded, you never know when you'll need to take a shot whilst dangling off a wall.

Still, training some portions of the population this way does indicate a martial bend to your civilization. The +1 charisma implies either some form of charismatic acestry like the tiefling or dragonborn, or they are naturally quite social, perhaps politics is fairly important in their society.

That leaves their magic. Its charisma based so probably not book learned. Now the spells they get, dancing light, fairy fire and darkness, are mostly to do with vision, so maybe this is from the fey, they do have fey ancestry as a trait. Alternativly maybe this is a manifestation of their religion, which rites performed on most level of society cuasing many children to grow up with inherant magic.

Hmm. To be honest that's kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Part of the reason I like the Drow is their culture and getting rid of that outright isn't really what I'm looking for at all.



I actually have created something like this in one of my games - my WDH game had a player who wanted to be a half-elf, but half-drow in story. So I created a minor drow merchant family that basically set themselves out as making connections and essentially building a real estate empire, marrying into an half-elvish family to create a no-raiding zone. The surface and dark elves worked out a symbiotic relationship, each using the other's abilities to get their opponents out of the way. They were still Drow - while they still worshipped Lolth, they had slaves (provided by the surface family), and were a strict, brutal matriarchy.

If you expand that family into a full city, I'd expect it to be a very Spartan-esque. The brutality, matriarchy, and whatnot would still be there, but it wouldn't spill over in the ways that Lolth leans them towards sacrifice and slavery. They'd have to always be vigilant - not only from outsiders, but also the more traditional Drow. If you wanted to tone them down, maybe look at the Adem from Patrick Rothfuss' A Wise Man's Fear, which is also a matriarchal martial society.


That's interesting. It's definitely different from the angle I was thinking of for which was a more cosmopolitan, trading sort of place but it is interesting.


I'll plug LudicSavant's take (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20485298&postcount=2) on a more functional re-imagining of Drow ecology and culture (and a conception of Lolth that isn't "Evil Sexy Spider Domme"). It makes the most sense if you interpret the traditional lore on Drow and Lolth as xenophobic propaganda, but it could also represent a breakaway culture.

Very cool. I don't entirely agree with the take for mainstream Drow society but it is definitely onto something.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm very fond of the Drow and I've been batting around ideas for a significant non-evil Drow presence in a world I'm thinking up. One aspect I'd like to explore is a Drow city that has abandonded Lolth - or been abandoned depending on how you look at it.

Basically the city was an old and distant outpost of the main Drow civilization that was deliberately sacrificed during a war in the Underdark. The outpost managed to survive and eventually thrive after a fashion but even after several generations there is bad blood between this city and 'standard' Drow - and Lolth and her clergy have never been forgiven and the rest of the Drow pantheon probably aren't much more popular.

As I've said these Drow are Neutral (not goody two shoes - they are still an ambitious city state) and probably less xenophobic than traditional Drow. At the same time they still live underground and are matriarchal (which to me seems like a strong cultural trait of the Drow regardless of alignment or religion.)

Any suggestions on who would lead this society? Merchant families? Sorcerers? A military aristocracy?

What makes Drow the Drow to you? Knowing what the quintessential Drowness is helps when deciding what to change.

For instance: Dark Eldar are very definitely Drow, as are the Drow from Practical Guide to Evil despite not sharing a lot of traditional qualities (at least to me it is definite.) Dark Templar Protoss are not, nor Night Elves from WoW.

They need to:
Get advantage from hurting or killing others.
Be associated with darkness, hit and run ambushes and assassins.
Be in some sense trapped within the cycle of point A, victims of their own power.


Cribbing off of a bunch of sources:
1. Minotaurs from Dragonlance.
2. Practical Guide to Evil Drow
3. Reports

The Arena:
Shorn of their matriarchs the Drow's sense of competitiveness led to destruction. In a wild scramble for power they crushed one another until all but a few had perished. These few, hunted in the Underdark, set about imposing rules to their society.

Oaths were made to restrict conflict to duels, formally overseen by other members. Over time the Arena was constructed for this purpose, and as betting became more common they found they could bet their life essence. Eventually the betting became the purpose for conflict, the snake biting its own tail.

Drow of all walks of life challenge each other and bet life essence. These beta represent a few years of life transferred from one to another, along with stat or skill points. Memories, ambition and other intangibles can be bet by the dualists. Duals are not restricted in type; duals by potters whose creations are voted on by the audience, mages, and musicians are all common.

Not dualing when challenged is sure to reduce community support for a Drow's business, and once a Drow has achieved a certain amount of victories it becomes all but inevitable that they will continue. Immortal Lords now exploit this, challenging any new rivals and stealing their talent.

[RossN]

What makes Drow the Drow to you? Knowing what the quintessential Drowness is helps when deciding what to change.

For instance: Dark Eldar are very definitely Drow, as are the Drow from Practical Guide to Evil despite not sharing a lot of traditional qualities (at least to me it is definite.) Dark Templar Protoss are not, nor Night Elves from WoW.

They need to:
Get advantage from hurting or killing others.
Be associated with darkness, hit and run ambushes and assassins.
Be in some sense trapped within the cycle of point A, victims of their own power.

Drow are...

Elves
Subterranean/Residents of the Underdark
Civilised/sophisticated with complex politics and urban living
Matriarchal
At least somewhat innately magical

I think beyond that you start getting into something different. The Druchii of Warhammer Fantasy are obviously 'Dark Elves' and share some of those tropes but they are certainly not Drow.

[KorvinStarmast]

: How would a Neutral Drow city be run/ruled? By a Druid. :smallcool:

[Boci]

Hmm. To be honest that's kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Part of the reason I like the Drow is their culture and getting rid of that outright isn't really what I'm looking for at all.

That's fair. Its an interesting project in itself, but for another day.


The Druchii of Warhammer Fantasy are obviously 'Dark Elves' and share some of those tropes but they are certainly not Drow.

Worth noting (I feel), Warhammer Dark Elves are not genetically different to High Elves, the difference is almost entirely political.

[Tvtyrant]

Drow are...

Elves
Subterranean/Residents of the Underdark
Civilised/sophisticated with complex politics and urban living
Matriarchal
At least somewhat innately magical

I think beyond that you start getting into something different. The Druchii of Warhammer Fantasy are obviously 'Dark Elves' and share some of those tropes but they are certainly not Drow.

I don't think a general definition of Drow vs Dark Elf will ever be useful. I'll focus on your definition for this.


Elves: Pretty easy, long lived knife ears known for crafts and magic.
Resident underground: Simple as well, they live underground.
Complex: Cities essentially, stealing some from history and changing them is probably a good first step. Venice comes to mind.
Matriarchal: Merchants princesses who have a monopoly on goods coming in or going out of Dark-Venice. They wear masks which disguise their faces and voices, while men go bare faced and are laborers/craftsmen. The food is grown by non-Drow who live on the outskirts of Dark-Venice. To get the singing and Gondolas is probably the hardest part, the city is suspended on webs between stone pillars over an immense cavern. Only massive spiders can walk on the webs, ranged by male Drow laborers of the lower classes, known for their singing.
Magic: The everpresent singing is what controls the giant spiders that roam the city, without it the webs would not be spun. Singing to spiders is done by men only, who control small spiders to make cloths and large spiders to make the city itself. The women sing to people, enthralling them the same way.

[jjordan]

I'm very fond of the Drow and I've been batting around ideas for a significant non-evil Drow presence in a world I'm thinking up. One aspect I'd like to explore is a Drow city that has abandonded Lolth - or been abandoned depending on how you look at it.

Basically the city was an old and distant outpost of the main Drow civilization that was deliberately sacrificed during a war in the Underdark. The outpost managed to survive and eventually thrive after a fashion but even after several generations there is bad blood between this city and 'standard' Drow - and Lolth and her clergy have never been forgiven and the rest of the Drow pantheon probably aren't much more popular.

As I've said these Drow are Neutral (not goody two shoes - they are still an ambitious city state) and probably less xenophobic than traditional Drow. At the same time they still live underground and are matriarchal (which to me seems like a strong cultural trait of the Drow regardless of alignment or religion.)

Any suggestions on who would lead this society? Merchant families? Sorcerers? A military aristocracy?A nobility composed of those who survived the war. They meet in council and make decisions regarding the ruling of the city. Basically they kept their old society but have adapted it. The priesthood of Llolth is gone, gone, gone and a new, male-dominated, branch of arcane magic-users, subordinate to the council, functions as a secret police, rooting out any attempts by followers of Llolth to infiltrate their society. They're still cruel slavers but, by necessity, have softened their xenophobic stance in order to trade with other species, even going so far as to allow some outsiders to live in their city and allowing drow to reside outside of the city. They are expanding their economic base by licensing some mining rights to dwarves. Half-drow are still subject to a good deal of scorn and prejudice, but the houses which have adopted a policy of giving full membership to the very capable have seen their fortunes rise and many other houses have followed suit. But not all. Half-drow are considered particularly useful in dealing with outsiders and some houses have adopted a deliberate policy of creating blood ties with outsiders in order to strengthen their economic, political, and military ties.

[Seclora]

A nobility composed of those who survived the war. They meet in council and make decisions regarding the ruling of the city. Basically they kept their old society but have adapted it. The priesthood of Llolth is gone, gone, gone and a new, male-dominated, branch of arcane magic-users, subordinate to the council, functions as a secret police, rooting out any attempts by followers of Llolth to infiltrate their society. They're still cruel slavers but, by necessity, have softened their xenophobic stance in order to trade with other species, even going so far as to allow some outsiders to live in their city and allowing drow to reside outside of the city. They are expanding their economic base by licensing some mining rights to dwarves. Half-drow are still subject to a good deal of scorn and prejudice, but the houses which have adopted a policy of giving full membership to the very capable have seen their fortunes rise and many other houses have followed suit. But not all. Half-drow are considered particularly useful in dealing with outsiders and some houses have adopted a deliberate policy of creating blood ties with outsiders in order to strengthen their economic, political, and military ties.

This is pretty close to what I was picturing.

I agree that there would be a titled, martial class at the top of the government. Most likely, given Drow culture, this would default to a council of clan matriarchs, with each house fielding its own troops in support of the general defense of the city, but also their own political gains and enforcing order in their own parts of town. Given that Lolth is no longer a dividing force between the houses, but actually an external threat, it is likely that the city is far more stable internally than most Drow cities.

This would probably also lead/drive them toward forming external alliances, seeking anything to give them an edge on their recurring conflicts with Lolth-inspired Drow. Forming an alliance with local Svirfineblin, surface Dwarves, or Myconid groves seems like the most likely avenues of social expansion, offering a martial alliance and serving as a buffer state in exchange for material support that would allow them to focus more heavily on defending against rival Drow. Dwarven stonework could reinforce their walls and outposts. Svirfineblin gems could power their magic, and their illusions could hide outposts or even paths to the city. Myconids could serve as messengers, supply otherwise hard to acquire lumber, or even be employed to keep a slave populace pacified. In turn, their society would grow, slowly, to accept outsiders as useful and benign, drifting away from xenophobia. Constant warfare with rival Drow would provide them more than enough slaves without the need for risky surface raids anyways.

Where I disagree, however, is the idea of a male, Arcane secret police. Even without Lolth, I think that Drow Matriarchy is too deeply ingrained to allow so much power to lie in the hands of men. Certainly there would be Arcanists, and without Lolth's priestesshood they would likely rise in influence, but I think that what is more likely is that they would see Arcane traditions become dominated by the Matriarchy, seeking an alternate source of power in the absence of Divinity. I'm not sure whether or not the now disenfranchised male arcanist class would take up clerical training, or for what deity, or why it would be Loki(Objectively the best deity). I just don't know.

[cutlery]

I think I'd stick with a matriarchy, too, but it needn't be as callous or overtly oppressive as the classic drow society. Honestly, I wonder about that rendition sometimes, it is a bit over the top.

Bregan D'aerthe was mostly (all?) male and could have easily functioned as a mercenary company outside of Menzoberranzan; perhaps they spend time in the neutral city. Or maybe they don't need to be based in a city at all. Perhaps the neutral city, although still matriarchal, does not have the ruling-house structure of traditional Drow cities, but some other political structure - a monarch, a preistess caste, a democracy - sky (cave-ceiling?) is the limit.

Hell, they could all worship Eilistraee. Unlikely, but the Underdark is a pretty huge place.

[Temperjoke]

I wouldn't discount how quick Eilistraee would be to make moves to secure a group of drow that have become disillusioned and abandoned by Lloth. That being said, how much influence she would have would also depend on how long it's been since this city had been cut off like this. If we're talking only a generation or two, then not much, but if we're talking multiple generations then her clergy would play a big role.

That being said, how such a city is being run/ruled now would depend in part on how they survived the events that caused them to be cut off and abandoned. Did they make peace with the enemy? Are they still in danger? Who survived that would be in a position to re-establish drow control?