Builds using Spell Sniper and little or no spellcasting classes

[Segev]

In the thread on Warlock balance issues, discussion of eldritch blast led me to thinking about Spell Sniper, and how it practically reads "You know eldritch blast now, and gain these benefits." I know it technically lets you pick any ranged target cantrip, but eldritch blast really is kind-of the go-to, here. That aside, though, I was pondering builds using it that don't use spellcasting classes at their core. There are ways to get Spell Sniper without having a single level of a spellcasting class. So, what builds might you use for it if you have no spellcaster levels? What about only a dip or a 1/3 or 1/2 caster class?

Spell Sniper doubles the range on spells that require attack rolls, lets such spells ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, and lets you pick a cantrip that requires an attack roll, using the casting stat of the class from whose spell list you draw it. It requires you to be able to cast at least one spell to take it.

Gnomes, high elves, gith, and drow are obvious possible choices for how to pick it up with no class-based spells known. Drow, gith, and gnomes even benefit from the free sniper spell directly since, unlike high elves, they couldn't have taken a ranged attack spell with their racial features.

Gnomes may be uniquely placed to want to take something like fire bolt over eldritch blast, since they might be influenced by their +2 to Int to seek something off the Wizard list.

Class choice is an interesting one, here. Barbarian is right out; raging is not compatible with spellcasting, and you don't want your features working against each other. Rogue might seem tempting at first, but sneak attack actually only works with weapons (finesse or ranged), not spells. Fighter offers the close quarters shooter fighting style, which has some overlap with spell sniper in the cover-negating department, but gives +1 to hit with ranged attacks and lets you make ranged attacks within 5 ft. of enemies without Disadvantage. The Archery style only works with weapon attacks, so isn't helpful here.

In the end, this feat and its accompanying spell let you replace archery or other ranged weapons, but comes off of a mental stat when you're probably optimized for physicals. Still, is there any way this is better on a (mostly) non-caster than just going for archery? Any interesting builds come to mind?

[x3n0n]

A niche use (opportunity cost is a thing): making Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade (normal range 5') work with reach weapons.

It's already somewhat reasonable on a polearm build, and the new rules make it easier to get a whip on a Rogue.

[MrStabby]

I have seen it used on booming blade a few times and on thorn whip once (which was regretted).

I have never seen it used on eldritch blast.

[Segev]

I have seen it used on booming blade a few times and on thorn whip once (which was regretted).

I have never seen it used on eldritch blast.

Why was it regretted when it was used on thorn whip?

Also, just to be clear: nothing in the feat says it only works with the spell you pick up with the feat; the feat gives you a spell so you're guaranteed to have something you can use with it.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

I mean, I suppose you could take cantrips like EB on non-fullcasting classes, but the fact that the spells gained use the casting stat of the original class, it becomes much less useful (to say nothing of the lack of Agonizing Blast).

The way I lean in regards to spell sniper (as has been mentioned) is to use it to boost the power of the blade cantrips, particularly booming blade, through the use of reach weapons. Of course, the overlap for martial weapon proficiency and extra attack somewhat limits the utility of blade cantrips (at least before level 11), but I think it is the most useful application of spell sniper. The martial clerics come to mind, as do dips in valour bard, though other spellcasters and half casters would also benefit (regardless of dip).

[cutlery]

You have to have spellcasting of some sort to use it; so races with spell features all probably qualify.

Why they'd want it, on the other hand, I don't know. If they took Eldritch blast, for example, it would still be a charisma casting stat for that spell, and they cannot gain eldritch blast. 4d10 isn't really any worse than firebolt (also 4d10 at level 17); with the key difference of multiple strikes to even out the damage in low accuracy situations.

As it happens, I took spell sniper on a warlock, and picked up booming blade with it (I already had green flame blade, and wanted both).

[Man_Over_Game]

Why was it regretted when it was used on thorn whip?

Thorn Whip's range is increased, but its 5-foot pull is not.

Yeah, honestly with the pointless ranges on every 5e spell in the game, the only use I've ever seen out of Spell Sniper, from a realistic element, are builds that are looking to abuse Booming Blade as an attacker with very few attacks.

Which, for the criteria you've mentioned, are basically boiled down to builds with:

Martial Levels that cap at level 4.
Rogue builds.

[cutlery]

Yeah, honestly with the pointless ranges on every 5e spell in the game, the only use I've ever seen out of Spell Sniper, from a realistic element, are builds that are looking to abuse Booming Blade as an attacker with very few attacks.



I think bypassing cover is pretty useful, but that depends on whether or not the DM applies the 1/2 cover from creatures in the way rules or has NPCs make use of other forms of cover.

Executing runners with it (using eldritch blast) is damn fun, but might move the alignment needle (unless it is already on N, of course).

If not an eldritch blaster, I'm not sure I'd ever take it.

[AvatarVecna]

It's weird that this is even a question. What class does this work best with? Well you want one that has Cha primary or secondary, with little to no casting. The first point narrows it down to bard/paladin/sorcerer/warlock, and the second point narrows it down to paladin. Which is actually a really great choice: this gives Paladin a ranged attack that isn't based on a dump stat, and has range/anti-cover to make up for "low damage" (ie, not getting a stat to damage). Smite doesn't apply to ranged weapons anyway, so you're not losing ranged smite capabilities by using a spell for it, and now you don't have to worry about tracking ammunition. You could also pick up a feat to snipe a single invocation to get Cha to damage.

...of course, that's kinda the rub: this is essentially a single-class pal-lock build that spends feats instead of class levels.

[Nagog]

I had considered picking it up on my Triton Fighter, as the prerequisite of "Able to cast a spell" is fulfilled by their racial spells of Fog Cloud and Gust of Wind, which I used liberally. Mostly because wearing plate and a greatsword meant long range was a weakness I'd love to get rid of by busting out a volley of EBs. I eventually went with Booming Blade, as pairing that with Fog Cloud and the Blind Fighting fighting style (and Mobile later on) made for some great 1v1 fighting.

[Segev]

Thorn Whip's range is increased, but its 5-foot pull is not.Ah. I can see that being frustrating. Maybe talk to the DM about altering that? It sounds like a valid place for ruling what exactly the spell is doing.


Yeah, honestly with the pointless ranges on every 5e spell in the game, the only use I've ever seen out of Spell Sniper, from a realistic element, are builds that are looking to abuse Booming Blade as an attacker with very few attacks. Can you please elaborate on what makes 5e spell ranges "pointless?"


Which, for the criteria you've mentioned, are basically boiled down to builds with:

Martial Levels that cap at level 4.
Rogue builds.


Why capping at level 4? And how do rogue builds benefit?

[cutlery]

. You could also pick up a feat to snipe a single invocation to get Cha to damage.


The UA feat to grab invocations is worded so that this is impossible. If you want agonizing blast, you need two levels of warlock. Not that it's a big investment.

[Segev]

The UA feat to grab invocations is worded so that this is impossible. If you want agonizing blast, you need two levels of warlock. Not that it's a big investment.

Weirdly, you technically need only one level. The feat only requires that you be a warlock, not a warlock who already has invocations, to pick up an invocation that has prerequisites. You must also meet the prerequisites, but Agonizing Blast only requires that you know eldritch blast, which a single level dip can get you.

[stoutstien]

Can you please elaborate on what makes 5e spell ranges "pointless?"

Why capping at level 4? And how do rogue builds benefit?

cant speak for MoG but I've seen a common theme at tables where long range is basically anything that isn't within 5 ft and ranges where the extra distance from the feat is never a factor.

rogues get a lot out of BB/GFB and getting a little range with a whip is golden for allowing CA for hide instead of disengaging.

[Segev]

cant speak for MoG but I've seen a common theme at tables where long range is basically anything that isn't within 5 ft and ranges where the extra distance from the feat is never a factor.

rogues get a lot out of BB/GFB and getting a little range with a whip is golden for allowing CA for hide instead of disengaging.

Huh. 60 ft. range has stymied my players a few times, and 30 ft. even more. 120 has usually been enough that it's not mattered, but every now and again the archer has made use of the very long range of a longbow.

[cutlery]

Weirdly, you technically need only one level. The feat only requires that you be a warlock, not a warlock who already has invocations, to pick up an invocation that has prerequisites. You must also meet the prerequisites, but Agonizing Blast only requires that you know eldritch blast, which a single level dip can get you.

Though if you have that level, spending a feat for one invocation instead of taking a another warlock level seems... weird, given you get two invocations that way. You'd really have to have a surfeit of ASIs for that to make sense (and if you did, taking a warlock level shouldn't be a problem).

I see that feat as more for full warlocks to pick up extra invocations, or for anyone and their brother to pick up devil's sight.

[Segev]

Though if you have that level, spending a feat for one invocation instead of taking a another warlock level seems... weird, given you get two invocations that way. You'd really have to have a surfeit of ASIs for that to make sense (and if you did, taking a warlock level shouldn't be a problem).Most likely use I foresee is on a V. Human at level 1.


I see that feat as more for full warlocks to pick up extra invocations, or for anyone and their brother to pick up devil's sight.That does seem most likely, yes. I want to play an Illusionist Wizard with Misty Visions and no multiclassing.

[Man_Over_Game]

Can you please elaborate on what makes 5e spell ranges "pointless?"



Why capping at level 4? And how do rogue builds benefit?


cant speak for MoG but I've seen a common theme at tables where long range is basically anything that isn't within 5 ft and ranges where the extra distance from the feat is never a factor.

rogues get a lot out of BB/GFB and getting a little range with a whip is golden for allowing CA for hide instead of disengaging.

stoutstien about covered it, but, from my experience, most encounters aren't really all that big.

Each square is about a RL inch. Each square represents an IG (In Game) 5 feet.

Most combat encounters I've played with in 5e, on the table are about 2 square feet, which translates to 24x24 squares, which translates to 120x120 feet. Sounds reasonable, right?

Except, most of the time, one of the two sides are in the middle of the battle map. So it's actually closer to 60 feet of distance between targets.

But even that is a bit big, as you're still talking about an entire round spent where the Fighter is Dashing.

Put another way, 60 feet is as relevant of a range as how common it is for a Barbarian or a Fighter to spend their entire turn using the Dash Action. If you don't ever see those players Dash, then 60+ feet is never really relevant. Spell Sniper could be worthwhile for 30 ft. range spells, but those are actually pretty rare, and you're already looking at a rare selection considering how few spells make Ranged Attacks.

So the chance of doubled range being relevant just isn't worth the feat to me.



As for Martial's/Rogues, it's about limiting yourself to a single attack. One major benefit of level 5+ martial classes is the fact that they're getting Extra Attack, and more features that scale with Extra Attack. But if you're leveraging Spell Sniper, you can use, at most, a single attack (without Sorcerer Metamagic shenanigans). So if you're trying to use it as a power boost, and not something that you'll stop using in a few levels, you need to be in a build where you don't make more than a single attack.

Which is why I recommended Martial classes without going over 4 levels, or the Rogue. But that's only if we're following your limitations. Personally, I think Spell Sniper has the greatest potential on a front-line tank/caster, specifically Clerics.

[AvatarVecna]

Any kind of indoor combat is inevitably going to have three relevant range categories:

Melee: You can attack people next to you, and can't attack people any further.
Short Range: You can attack people near you, or attack people further away at disadvantage.
Long Range: You can attack anybody you can see without disadvantage from range.

Outside, it gets more complicated. The big issue with range really factoring into things is just...how absurdly long Long Range is for some styles. Longbows shoot out to 600 ft, but unless you have a mapgrid that's longer than 10 real feet, "600 ft range" is "anywhere on the map". And sharpshooter makes that not be at disadvantage. Crossbows aren't quite that ridiculous, but generally the extreme ranges only come up in two situations:

1) You are playing theatre of the mind and have to snipe somebody from way away and it's your only chance before they escape LoS/LoE, so the extreme range helps keep them shootable a couple extra rounds.

2) You are starting a combat 600 ft away from the enemy, and both of you want to fight each other. Whichever group has the range advantage kites+shoots, while the other alternates between dashing and move-dodging. I know a lot of people who've run this kind of combat, myself included. I don't know anybody who's run it more than once, because this kind of encounter is awful to play through. Depending on how the relative speed and range of the two opposing forces, it's entirely possible that the victor is a foregone conclusion, but you still gotta roll it out cuz things could go sideways. So one team spends 30 rounds shooting at disadvantage while running away, and the other spends 30 rounds getting shot without being able to fight back. Either the team shooting inevitably wins and it's a giant waste of time, or the team getting shot is so relatively OP that the range advantage levels the playing field. No matter which side is players and NPCs, this encounter isn't fun to play through from either side of the screen. It's just a giant waste of time.

[MrStabby]

Why was it regretted when it was used on thorn whip?

Also, just to be clear: nothing in the feat says it only works with the spell you pick up with the feat; the feat gives you a spell so you're guaranteed to have something you can use with it.

So the main issue was that the player just wished they had taken adifferent feat instead - resilient was what they regretted not taking. They wanted something to take advantage of the fact that so many of the party were able to give advantage on attacks and as a cleric they didn't really have any attack roll cantrips.

And yes, it works with anything. One wonders why they stipulated you needed to be a spellcaster for this. With every class (or subclass at least) having a feature to cast spells, so many races with spells, and potentially feats that grant spells, it isn't hard to meet the requirements... and then they give you something to ensure you do...

[Hellpyre]

I've found that it works great in a campaign where you can expect to engage foes in wide open spaces regularly. I've used a two-level dip into warlock for repelling blast+eldritch spear, then tacked on SS later to make large flying foes spend multiple turns closing, or bombard enemies as they approached. Very reliant on the campaign allowing for it, but range can be very powerful if you can take advantage of it.

[x3n0n]

So if you're trying to use it as a power boost, and not something that you'll stop using in a few levels, you need to be in a build where you don't make more than a single attack.

Which is why I recommended Martial classes without going over 4 levels, or the Rogue. But that's only if we're following your limitations. Personally, I think Spell Sniper has the greatest potential on a front-line tank/caster, specifically Clerics.

Eldritch Knight 7-10 is a good spot for the SCAGtrips as well, only a little worse from 11-16, and right back on again at 17-19. The cantrips also benefit more if you have some source of once-per-round advantage.

If you happen to have War Caster, that also benefits the cantrips. (Again, niche to have a reach weapon on anything that takes that feat.)

What Clerics are you thinking of? I can see Arcana cleric benefiting, but otherwise I don't see many ranged spells with attack rolls in the Cleric list.

[cutlery]

And yes, it works with anything. One wonders why they stipulated you needed to be a spellcaster for this. With every class (or subclass at least) having a feature to cast spells, so many races with spells, and potentially feats that grant spells, it isn't hard to meet the requirements... and then they give you something to ensure you do...

Isn’t the prereq “must be able to cast at least one spell”?

That would even include racial cantrips.

[Man_Over_Game]

Eldritch Knight 7-10 is a good spot for the SCAGtrips as well, only a little worse from 11-16, and right back on again at 17-19. The cantrips also benefit more if you have some source of once-per-round advantage.

If you happen to have War Caster, that also benefits the cantrips. (Again, niche to have a reach weapon on anything that takes that feat.)

What Clerics are you thinking of? I can see Arcana cleric benefiting, but otherwise I don't see many ranged spells with attack rolls in the Cleric list.

You don't need the range bonus on any spells that aren't Booming Blade, and the spell itself gives you Booming Blade.

That, of itself, isn't all that interesting, but it does mean that you can do some really fun things, like:


Add more Thunder damage as a Tempest Cleric.
Lock down targets as a War Cleric
Combine it with War Caster, and now you can lock down targets that try to move out of your 10ft reach.


As any kind of heavy-armored Cleric, what were you going to do when you're not casting leveled spells anyway? There really isn't much that feats can give you that will improve your weapon attacks, and not using your weapon attacks means you're losing value from your Cleric feature.

[cutlery]

You don't need the range bonus on any spells that aren't Booming Blade, and the spell itself gives you Booming Blade.

That, of itself, isn't all that interesting, but it does mean that you can do some really fun things, like:


Add more Thunder damage as a Tempest Cleric.
Lock down targets as a War Cleric
Combine it with War Caster, and now you can lock down targets that try to move out of your 10ft reach.


As any kind of heavy-armored Cleric, what were you going to do when you're not casting leveled spells anyway? There really isn't much that feats can give you that will improve your weapon attacks, and not using your weapon attacks means you're losing value from your Cleric feature.

I guess in that situation, magic initiate would be more useful, right? You could pick up thunderclap, too, if it isn’t on the cleric list.

[Man_Over_Game]

I guess in that situation, magic initiate would be more useful, right? You could pick up thunderclap, too, if it isn’t on the cleric list.

The addition of Spell Sniper lets you combine your strategy with Reach weapons, which also dramatically improves the value of Booming Blade (since the enemy will now have to zap himself in order to get within range of you).

Reach is also very helpful for Clerics, as Clerics have more Concentration spells than most other casters.


Sure, you'd get Booming Blade and Thunder Clap, but I'd get Booming Blade and Reach.

[cutlery]

Sure, you'd get Booming Blade and Thunder Clap, but I'd get Booming Blade and Reach.

Well, I’d have neither as it would be a cold day before I played a cleric.

[MrStabby]

Isn’t the prereq “must be able to cast at least one spell”?

That would even include racial cantrips.

Yes, thats what I mean. It is that easy to meet the perequisites. Literally every class can do it. From totem barbarian, shadowmonk, tieflings and so on. Including EVERYTHING.

[cutlery]

Yes, thats what I mean. It is that easy to meet the perequisites. Literally every class can do it. From totem barbarian, shadowmonk, tieflings and so on. Including EVERYTHING.

Right; I suppose I figure it sits mostly in the same space as sharpshooter, or did once upon a time, but the prereq was added after the bonus cantrip was.

I have a hard time finding a use case for it other than a ranged blaster lock (or lock dip), or pretty much anyone with a reach weapon and war caster (but that's two feats and seems expensive compared to sentinel).

I think it makes sense for someone regularly firing ranged cantrips into melee, and the added range is just icing. I don't think the combinations with something like PAM and booming blade is that useful in the grand scheme, as it is only one creature per round, generally, and only ~13.5 damage at most (at level 17) - in terms of the rider damage add for booming blade, as the splash damage from GFB doesn't have a range increase.

So, I wouldn't take it for someone planning to use blade cantrips often for the purpose of opportunity attacks. I would, instead, take it for someone taking warcaster anyway who could also reasonably make a melee attack - that might be a shillelagh tomelock, it might be an eldritch knight (but probably not), it might be an arcane trickster (but also probably not).

I do rather like the feat for a ranged build, though.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

~or pretty much anyone with a reach weapon and war caster (but that's two feats and seems expensive compared to sentinel).

I think it makes sense for someone regularly firing ranged cantrips into melee, and the added range is just icing. I don't think the combinations with something like PAM and booming blade is that useful in the grand scheme, as it is only one creature per round, generally, and only ~13.5 damage at most (at level 17) - in terms of the rider damage add for booming blade, as the splash damage from GFB doesn't have a range increase.

So, I wouldn't take it for someone planning to use blade cantrips often for the purpose of opportunity attacks. I would, instead, take it for someone taking warcaster anyway who could also reasonably make a melee attack~

I would never bet on the DM having enemies willingly eat two booming blade riders through movement+opp attack. The main draw of spell sniper Booming blade is to force melee enemies to eat the rider in order to have them do anything - and that reliability on the rider can effectively double the caster's attack action DPR.

Also, opp attacks and reach weapons are notoriously fussy, so yeah I wouldn't take Spell Sniper with Warcaster either.

[Kane0]

Works nicely on an EK. It allows reach GFB/BB, enhances the ranged attack capability of a STR build and synergises well with War Magic if you’re building towards the cantrip + BA weapon combo (such as with a bow and rogue multiclass)

[iTreeby]

A sorcerer with the distant metamagic might try to get the extra 50 percent range out of a touch spell but because it only works on attack roles and not saves it doesn't really open up much new uses. A favored soul cold try harm and inflict wounds I guess...

[Quietus]

I guess in that situation, magic initiate would be more useful, right? You could pick up thunderclap, too, if it isn’t on the cleric list.

Unfortunately, you couldn't pick up Thunderclap. Spell Sniper requires that the spell you pick up use an attack roll, Thunderclap is save-based. It wouldn't get the additional range, either. Shame, or I'd be taking this on my artificer.

[Chronos]

Which is why Magic Initiate would be more useful, like cutlery said.

And that's the real rub. It's not too hard to find situations where an extra cantrip would be useful. But it is hard to find situations where an extra cantrip and a range increase is more useful than two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell. And that's even more true if you don't have much in the way of spellcasting (and hence, not many other spells that would benefit from the range increase).

[Man_Over_Game]

Which is why Magic Initiate would be more useful, like cutlery said.

And that's the real rub. It's not too hard to find situations where an extra cantrip would be useful. But it is hard to find situations where an extra cantrip and a range increase is more useful than two extra cantrips and an extra first-level spell. And that's even more true if you don't have much in the way of spellcasting (and hence, not many other spells that would benefit from the range increase).

You could put it like this:

You have something you could have done without any feat, your original "default", we'll say this is worth 1 point.
Then you have the value of what cantrips the feat would have provided. A new "default", which we'll say is worth an additional 0.5 points.
Then there's the Reach provided by Spell Sniper, which we'll say doubles the value of Booming Blade, for an additional 0.5 points.
Then there's the value of the alternate level 1 spell, which is probably worth more than a Cantrip, so we'll say it's worth a total of 2 points when you cast it.

So with Magic Initiate, you're occasionally getting nothing out of that feat (as you'll have some cantrips you're casting that didn't come from that feat), and sometimes it's giving +0.5, and once per day it's giving +1.
With Spell Sniper, you're occasionally getting nothing, and sometimes you're getting +1 whenever you're using Booming Blade.

You could say that it's the difference between a Sorcerer vs. a Wizard. A Barbarian and a Ranger. A specialist vs. a generalist.

But from my experience, most melee characters are specialists.

[lukethecat2003]

In the thread on Warlock balance issues, discussion of eldritch blast led me to thinking about Spell Sniper, and how it practically reads "You know eldritch blast now, and gain these benefits." I know it technically lets you pick any ranged target cantrip, but eldritch blast really is kind-of the go-to, here. That aside, though, I was pondering builds using it that don't use spellcasting classes at their core. There are ways to get Spell Sniper without having a single level of a spellcasting class. So, what builds might you use for it if you have no spellcaster levels? What about only a dip or a 1/3 or 1/2 caster class?

Spell Sniper doubles the range on spells that require attack rolls, lets such spells ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, and lets you pick a cantrip that requires an attack roll, using the casting stat of the class from whose spell list you draw it. It requires you to be able to cast at least one spell to take it.

Gnomes, high elves, gith, and drow are obvious possible choices for how to pick it up with no class-based spells known. Drow, gith, and gnomes even benefit from the free sniper spell directly since, unlike high elves, they couldn't have taken a ranged attack spell with their racial features.

Gnomes may be uniquely placed to want to take something like fire bolt over eldritch blast, since they might be influenced by their +2 to Int to seek something off the Wizard list.

Class choice is an interesting one, here. Barbarian is right out; raging is not compatible with spellcasting, and you don't want your features working against each other. Rogue might seem tempting at first, but sneak attack actually only works with weapons (finesse or ranged), not spells. Fighter offers the close quarters shooter fighting style, which has some overlap with spell sniper in the cover-negating department, but gives +1 to hit with ranged attacks and lets you make ranged attacks within 5 ft. of enemies without Disadvantage. The Archery style only works with weapon attacks, so isn't helpful here.

In the end, this feat and its accompanying spell let you replace archery or other ranged weapons, but comes off of a mental stat when you're probably optimized for physicals. Still, is there any way this is better on a (mostly) non-caster than just going for archery? Any interesting builds come to mind?




to an EK, this may allow them to choose ranged cantrip, GFB and utility cantrip, which is int based bc they are int. so either firebolt or toll the dead or chill touch.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

~If SCAG cantrips are allowed at your table a lot of things go out of whack from intended balance~

What are the issues with SCAG cantrips and intended balance? I don't see much problem with them.

[SLOTHRPG95]

What are the issues with SCAG cantrips and intended balance? I don't see much problem with them.

SCAGtrips + Shillelagh lead to silliness* like going Arcana Cleric or Tomelock for good at-will melee damage, rather than War Cleric or Bladelock resp. Even without Shillelagh, the SCAGtrips are just too cheap a way to boost at-will DPR on Clerics (via feat) and Rogues and the like.

To OP: If I were to specifically have to make a non-caster build that made use of Spell Sniper for EB, it'd have to be a Str-based Fighter picking it for a decent ranged option while dumping Dex. For example, a variant half-elf (drow magic) battlemaster who went STR > CON > CHA >> WIS > DEX > INT. At that point, I'd ask my DM if being half-drow is enough to qualify for Drow High Magic, and make a sort of off-brand EK with no actual spell slots but as much racial/feat magic as I could muster.

*Whether something is silly or not is of course a matter of subjective taste, but I think it's not too controversial that the Arcana Cleric was not intended to be a better melee combatant than the domains that get divine strike and martial weapons.

[Mr Adventurer]

I took the feat on an Eldritch Blast Warlock. I also had Pact of the Tome, so I had loads of cantrips, it was great. I very much appreciated the ability to ignore most cover in combat: it's surprising how often the rest of the party being in melee will give the enemy +2 AC, otherwise.

But on topic:

Does Ritual Caster feat qualify you for this one?

[Unoriginal]

In the thread on Warlock balance issues, discussion of eldritch blast led me to thinking about Spell Sniper, and how it practically reads "You know eldritch blast now, and gain these benefits." I know it technically lets you pick any ranged target cantrip, but eldritch blast really is kind-of the go-to, here. That aside, though, I was pondering builds using it that don't use spellcasting classes at their core. There are ways to get Spell Sniper without having a single level of a spellcasting class. So, what builds might you use for it if you have no spellcaster levels? What about only a dip or a 1/3 or 1/2 caster class?

Spell Sniper doubles the range on spells that require attack rolls, lets such spells ignore 1/2 and 3/4 cover, and lets you pick a cantrip that requires an attack roll, using the casting stat of the class from whose spell list you draw it. It requires you to be able to cast at least one spell to take it.

Gnomes, high elves, gith, and drow are obvious possible choices for how to pick it up with no class-based spells known. Drow, gith, and gnomes even benefit from the free sniper spell directly since, unlike high elves, they couldn't have taken a ranged attack spell with their racial features.

Gnomes may be uniquely placed to want to take something like fire bolt over eldritch blast, since they might be influenced by their +2 to Int to seek something off the Wizard list.

Class choice is an interesting one, here. Barbarian is right out; raging is not compatible with spellcasting, and you don't want your features working against each other. Rogue might seem tempting at first, but sneak attack actually only works with weapons (finesse or ranged), not spells. Fighter offers the close quarters shooter fighting style, which has some overlap with spell sniper in the cover-negating department, but gives +1 to hit with ranged attacks and lets you make ranged attacks within 5 ft. of enemies without Disadvantage. The Archery style only works with weapon attacks, so isn't helpful here.

In the end, this feat and its accompanying spell let you replace archery or other ranged weapons, but comes off of a mental stat when you're probably optimized for physicals. Still, is there any way this is better on a (mostly) non-caster than just going for archery? Any interesting builds come to mind?

Fire Genasi have a CON-based Produce Flame, which benefits greatly from Spell Sniper.

Actually a decent attack for a CONbarian.

[MrStabby]

What are the issues with SCAG cantrips and intended balance? I don't see much problem with them.

So classes are nominally balanced around being good at some things and bad at others. You get some strengths, but they are offset by weaknesses. A lot of casting classes abilities are many and diverse, but are generally offset by being less good at at will damage (and somewhat at damage in general). SCAG cantrips turn this on its head; they let casters be both very good at control, area of effect spells, utility and so on whilst also being in the same league as other characters in terms of at will damage potential. Why play a barbarian when you can do nearly as much attack damage with a cleric but also have all your cleric spellcasting on top?


Fire Genasi have a CON-based Produce Flame, which benefits greatly from Spell Sniper.

Actually a decent attack for a CONbarian.

Oh, that's quite fun. I hadn't thought of that! Although isn't the range "Self"?

[Unoriginal]

Oh, that's quite fun. I hadn't thought of that! Although isn't the range "Self"?

True. But you can use it to do a ranged attack with 30ft of range, so maybe it still works.

[Quietus]

True. But you can use it to do a ranged attack with 30ft of range, so maybe it still works.

Unfortunately, RAW, this doesn't work - the Spell Sniper feet increases range, which is an attribute of the spell. If Range is self, then Spell Sniper can't double it.

However, as a DM, I'd absolutely allow it to work on Produce Flame. Nothing about this will break the game.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

They're not balanced.

As evinced by the fact they're consistently top picks in any discussion about optimization and cantrips.

Is EB also not balanced? Toll the Dead?


SCAGtrips + Shillelagh lead to silliness* like going Arcana Cleric or Tomelock for good at-will melee damage, rather than War Cleric or Bladelock resp. Even without Shillelagh, the SCAGtrips are just too cheap a way to boost at-will DPR on Clerics (via feat) and Rogues and the like.

Arcana Cleric + Shillelagh requires a feat tax, as you said, plus another to reliably get full damage off booming blade (lets be honest no DM is going to allow you many riders for either cantrip). It also suffers from poorer utility in their spell list/channel divinity.

Rogues get the opportunity cost of not being able to dual-wield, as well as not using ranged weapons, if they focus on BB. They also need to be either Swash to get both the rider and sneak attack off, otherwise its just an extra 1 to 2d8 while either staying in melee or burning a cunning action.


So classes are nominally balanced around being good at some things and bad at others. You get some strengths, but they are offset by weaknesses. A lot of casting classes abilities are many and diverse, but are generally offset by being less good at at will damage (and somewhat at damage in general). SCAG cantrips turn this on its head; they let casters be both very good at control, area of effect spells, utility and so on whilst also being in the same league as other characters in terms of at will damage potential. Why play a barbarian when you can do nearly as much attack damage with a cleric but also have all your cleric spellcasting on top?
SCAG cantrips are generally gated by the MADness and other opportunity costs of melee combat. Extra attack almost fully eclipses blade cantrip damage until maybe 11th level, and many campaigns don't play father than that. At that point, there is an even greater opportunity cost of going into melee using full casters, since they have their concentration to deal with, among other action economy competition.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I mean, other then grabbing SCAG on Rogue I dont often see this taken at all.
The last time I saw this was Highelf - takes GFB cantrip
Spell sniper - Pickup booming blade on Rogue.
With option of swapping Elf wep training, to Whip proficiency in Tashas, I can see this happening more often on rogues going forward once its released as official content.

Edit - Bonus points if you can get your hands on Illusionist bracers for a second rider option for Sneak attack.

Fully commiting to a Cantrip build.

[Meichrob7]

By RAW doesn’t spell sniper work with sun soul monk since those are ranger spell attacks?

[Segev]

By RAW doesn’t spell sniper work with sun soul monk since those are ranger spell attacks?

The ranged spell attacks would ignore cover. They would not have their ranged doubled, because the monk isn't casting a spell.

[Chronos]

Eldritch Blast is balanced, because it's only natively available to one class, requiring an opportunity cost for anyone else to get them, and other classes don't get any of the riders on it that warlocks do (and other parts of the warlock class are balanced around the fact that they get Eldritch Blast).

Toll the Dead is not balanced. It's a rarely-resisted damage type, and also almost always does more damage than any other cantrip, on a variety of already-strong classes? What were they thinking?

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Eldritch Blast is balanced, because it's only natively available to one class, requiring an opportunity cost for anyone else to get them, and other classes don't get any of the riders on it that warlocks do (and other parts of the warlock class are balanced around the fact that they get Eldritch Blast).

Toll the Dead is not balanced. It's a rarely-resisted damage type, and also almost always does more damage than any other cantrip, on a variety of already-strong classes? What were they thinking?

Toll the Dead is also only native to just three classes, one of them who doesn't need it (Warlock). Yes, it targets a mental save, and yes it does have a higher die size than things like Firebolt, but it also has a conditional that the target must be damaged for that higher die size to matter. It is a good cantrip, but I fail to see the imbalance from what you mention alone. Ain't no one dipping Wizard for Toll the Dead.

Eldritch Blast has a damage type that is arguably just as strong or stronger, with almost no monsters able to resist it. And obviously the opportunity cost is negligible, when Warlock is such a powerful dip class for the other Cha casters and that it's the basis of one of the most popular degenerate white-room multiclass combinations. Heck, the OP even assumed that EB would be the primary choice for a spell sniper cantrip in non-casters, because the damage and multiple rays make it competitive to and more reliable than cantrips like Toll and Firebolt.

Of course Warlock is based around their EB spam, but I don't know if I would go so far as saying they are "balanced" around it (in any way that is effective). Though, that's a discussion for another thread.

[Chronos]

Nobody dips warlock for eldritch blast, either. They dip warlock for other reasons, like Hex Warrior (which is also not balanced), and then pick up Eldritch Blast because they're dipping anyway.

[Quietus]

Nobody dips warlock for eldritch blast, either. They dip warlock for other reasons, like Hex Warrior (which is also not balanced), and then pick up Eldritch Blast because they're dipping anyway.

Bards and some sorcerers would like to have a word with you. Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast is some pretty top shelf stuff.

[Hellpyre]

Nobody dips warlock for eldritch blast, either. They dip warlock for other reasons, like Hex Warrior (which is also not balanced), and then pick up Eldritch Blast because they're dipping anyway.

I have seen many people dip Warlock specifically to pick up EB with invocations. In my (anecdotal) experience, it is by far the main reason players have cited when they chose to dip into Warlock. Hex Warrior is probably around third, after people dipping for spell list expansion in general (both Warlock exclusives and Tome of Shadows).

[Chronos]

Dipping (multiple levels) for EB and invocations, yes. But not for just the one level it'd take to get EB. In other words, it's not EB itself that is unbalanced; it's the other stuff warlocks get that boosts it.

[Hellpyre]

Dipping (multiple levels) for EB and invocations, yes. But not for just the one level it'd take to get EB. In other words, it's not EB itself that is unbalanced; it's the other stuff warlocks get that boosts it.

Your claim has (or at least appears to have) changed since the last comment. You said people dip Warlock for other effects, and pick up EB since, eh, they're already in Warlock.

My experience differs. People I play with, both now and in the past, have dipped warlock explicitly for that shiny EB, and often taken a second level to make it even nicer. For what it's worth, I've seen many more 1-level Warlock dips in no-feats games, where the other avenues of access to EB are cut off.

It is simply a very reliable cantrip, even before invocations come into play.

[Talionis]

3 Chain Warlock/3 Sorcerer/ 6 Eagle Totem Barbarian.

Take Aganizing Blast and Eldritch Spear for your invocations. Take Invisible Imp as a spotter.

Take Distant Spell meta magic on Sorcerer. So you can double range.

Take Spell Sniper and sillily you use sixth level Eagle Barbarian Totem to be able to clearly see an enemy far away.

This will make you a true sniper.

[Segev]

3 Chain Warlock/3 Sorcerer/ 6 Eagle Totem Barbarian.

Take Aganizing Blast and Eldritch Spear for your invocations. Take Invisible Imp as a spotter.

Take Distant Spell meta magic on Sorcerer. So you can double range.

Take Spell Sniper and sillily you use sixth level Eagle Barbarian Totem to be able to clearly see an enemy far away.

This will make you a true sniper.

Can you use the eagle totem sight distance through the Imp?

Regardless, this combo “only” gets you up to 1,200 feet range with EB. That’s very good, but doesn’t really need a spotter with eagle totem.

Nice build idea!