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AslanCross
2007-11-01, 09:04 PM
What do you guys think of them? I just purchased PHB 2 recently and I was looking over the alternative class features suggested for the core classes.

The features I'd like to bring to attention in particular are those that the fighter gets. The fighter can get three of them, and they take the place of bonus feats it gets at later levels.

Of course this gives more reason to take more fighter levels (especially since one of them improves at higher levels. (Elusive Attack). Counterattack isn't that impressive since it trades your iterative attacks for an extra attack as an immediate action, but I guess that makes up for the problem of your later iterative attacks having really low AB.

Overpowering attack also makes up for the problem of later iterative attacks not hitting, but in practice, just how effective is it?

Solo
2007-11-01, 09:15 PM
Metamagic specialist for sorcerers is awesome.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-01, 09:19 PM
From what I understand a lot of people use the shape changer class feature for druids to keep them from becoming massive, city crushing, full casting cataclysmic behemoths.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-01, 09:23 PM
Bardic Knack is good if you want to be more of a Jack of All Trades (especially with the Jack of All Trades feat).

Dhavaer
2007-11-01, 09:39 PM
Dark Companion is pretty awesome.

Temp
2007-11-01, 10:08 PM
I like the Scout's quite a bit. Its name's escaping me at the moment.

And Charging Smite.

In fact, I'm a fan of most of them beside the Barbarian's. Not sure why they chose that one for the site's excerpt.

Reinboom
2007-11-01, 10:37 PM
The Metamagic Specialist for Sorcerers was greatly needed. (Though, I wish it wasn't uses/day...)
The Shapechange Variant helps against Druid abuse greatly.

For the fighter specific...
Elusive attack is ok but, in my opinion, it doesn't warrant going fighter 6 unless you are extremely AC focused. I personally wouldn't waste that many levels.
The rest aren't worth the fighter levels to get there, sadly.

kpenguin
2007-11-01, 10:42 PM
I, for one, dislike Shapechange. It takes away all the utility of wild shape, although I appreciate it being less powerful in combat.

AslanCross
2007-11-01, 10:57 PM
The Monk's Decisive Blow deal doesn't seem to be that good either.It requires a full-round action, so it doesnt make use of the monk's mobility. It penalizes AB too, so it might not end up hitting anyway.

The_Snark
2007-11-01, 10:57 PM
I, for one, dislike Shapechange. It takes away all the utility of wild shape, although I appreciate it being less powerful in combat.

Really? How does it limit the utility? The fact that there aren't any forms with a swim speed is annoying, but aside from that I've found that it allows greater out-of-combat utility (you don't have to waste uses per day to be able to scout as a bird and then come back to report what you've said). It doesn't give you the same range of special attacks, of course, but that's one of the things that makes wild shape too good anyway. (I'm curious, here, not criticizing; I think I've only ever made a druid who got Wild Shape once, so I don't have a lot of practical experience.)

In general, I like the PHBII class features. Most of them are at least somewhat useful. The 18th-level fighter ability could be really good with Robilar's Gambit, as could the monk ability, but you have to be a high-level fighter or monk to do it...

I also like the scout feature. Fast movement is good, but so is a climb speed.

Temp
2007-11-01, 11:04 PM
Really? How does it limit the utility?It also limits Burrow and Climb speeds. And Scent in the form of a your Companion.

They don't come up much, but they might be worth mentioning.

Maybe.

Goumindong
2007-11-01, 11:25 PM
The Monk's Decisive Blow deal doesn't seem to be that good either.It requires a full-round action, so it doesnt make use of the monk's mobility. It penalizes AB too, so it might not end up hitting anyway.

Decisive blow is about 10x better than flurry.

1. You do double damage on your hit

2. You are not penalized for power attacking with a two handed weapon like you are with flurry.

3. ALL attacks made in the round have their damage doubled.

You make your attack at double damage a trip attack, with improved trip after tripping the monster/creature you power attack the poor sod who is on the ground at a -4 penalty[the same as his dropped AC from being prone] with your quarterstaff or large tripping monk weapon. The -4 penalty adds +8 damage and that gets doubled to 16.

Then when he gets up, you do it again with the AoO he provokes.

With smart manuvering you end up trading a couple of weak attacks for a couple of strong attacks.

At low levels its just as good as flurry if not better. At high levels it lets you use power attack easier and is a whole lot better than flurry.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-11-01, 11:47 PM
What I'd love for style is some way to make 2 attacks while still moving, basicly spring attack with two attacks.

Reel On, Love
2007-11-01, 11:54 PM
What I'd love for style is some way to make 2 attacks while still moving, basicly spring attack with two attacks.

...like the Bounding Assault feat in the PHB II? (And Rapid Blitz, which lets you make 3.)

Lord Iames Osari
2007-11-02, 12:25 AM
Decisive blow is about 10x better than flurry.

1. You do double damage on your hit

2. You are not penalized for power attacking with a two handed weapon like you are with flurry.

3. ALL attacks made in the round have their damage doubled.

You make your attack at double damage a trip attack, with improved trip after tripping the monster/creature you power attack the poor sod who is on the ground at a -4 penalty[the same as his dropped AC from being prone] with your quarterstaff or large tripping monk weapon. The -4 penalty adds +8 damage and that gets doubled to 16.

Then when he gets up, you do it again with the AoO he provokes.

With smart manuvering you end up trading a couple of weak attacks for a couple of strong attacks.

At low levels its just as good as flurry if not better. At high levels it lets you use power attack easier and is a whole lot better than flurry.

I disagree. At low levels, you get the same penalty to hit as flurry, but only one attack roll, that is, only one chance to hit. True, hitting that once will do more damage, but still, with flurry if you miss once you still have a chance to hit the next time and do some damage. Decisive strike is an all-or-nothing attack, and as AslanCross pointed out, it limits mobility just as much as flurry does.

The attack penalty for decisive strike decreases at the same rate as flurry, so there's no advantage there, and the amount of damage it can inflict (double normal damage) stays static, whereas flurry increases with the number of iterative attacks you get (plus one, after 11th level). So flurry goes from doubling your damage at 1st level, to tripling it at 8th level, to quadrupling it at 11th level, to quintupling it at 15th level... while decisive strike is still merely doubling your damage.

Now, I'm not saying flurry is all that great, but I don't see how decisive strike is "10x better".

Kyeudo
2007-11-02, 12:31 AM
The Wizard's Immediate Magic is flavorful in quality, and ranges from weak (Counterfire) to near broken (Abrupt Jaunt).

KIDS
2007-11-02, 02:38 AM
Most of those are quite solid. Monk Decisive Strike is ok, Bardic Knack is useful, Sorcerer's Metamagic Specialist is something they should have had in the first place... oh wait.

Shapeshifting variant wonderfully removes the brokeness from the druid but leaves him with all the flavor and a few candies in return, it's wonderfully done. I wouldn't force druids to use it, but it's very appealing. If you don't want to give up animal companion, take Wild Cohort feat.

Fighter features are actually very good. Counterstrike has more tactical feeling to it than most of the published feats and it's useful with some coordination, and overpowering attack is good and frequently used in AoO builds of all kinds, particularly since the book includes Robilar's Gambit.

Wizard ones range from poor to reallly strong, not much to say there. I must have missed some but nothing fell on me as immediately good or bad, mostly flavorful, good as option, not overpowering. It's all well.

Goumindong
2007-11-02, 04:07 AM
I disagree. At low levels, you get the same penalty to hit as flurry, but only one attack roll, that is, only one chance to hit. True, hitting that once will do more damage, but still, with flurry if you miss once you still have a chance to hit the next time and do some damage. Decisive strike is an all-or-nothing attack, and as AslanCross pointed out, it limits mobility just as much as flurry does.

The attack penalty for decisive strike decreases at the same rate as flurry, so there's no advantage there, and the amount of damage it can inflict (double normal damage) stays static, whereas flurry increases with the number of iterative attacks you get (plus one, after 11th level). So flurry goes from doubling your damage at 1st level, to tripling it at 8th level, to quadrupling it at 11th level, to quintupling it at 15th level... while decisive strike is still merely doubling your damage.

Now, I'm not saying flurry is all that great, but I don't see how decisive strike is "10x better".

How does flurry qunitupple your damage at level 11?

A: it doesnt.

How is "limited mobility" worse than "limited mobility"?

A: It isnt

Flurry sucks really hard. You gain two high iterative attacks and lose the ability to power attack. Oh hey, its a slightly better version of two weapon fighting! Which sucks unless you can add things like sneak attack dice to it.

Now, lets take decisive strke.

At low levels:

1. Same average damage before strength modifiers

2. Lets you use 1.5x your strengh modifier and use power attack.

3. increases the damage of all attacks you make in the round, so if enemies provoke 3 attacks, each of those attacks will do double damage

Let me re-iterate this.

1. It lets you use power attack to near the full potential of a fighter.

2. It lets you use power attack to near the full potential of a fighter.

3. It makes AoO monkeys that arent fighters do a lot of damage


Heck, lets take an average monk 10/16/10/10/16/10 and he has weapon finesse. +3 to attack +0 to damage. Has 3 AoOs

and turn him into 14/14/10/10/16/10

+2 to attack and +3 to damage. Now we add power attack. Has 2 AoOs


Build 1 flurry dmg + 3 AoOs = 1d6+0 x 5 = 5d6
Build 2 Decicisve dmg + 2 AoOs = 2d6+6 x 3 = 6d6+18

The power is in its ability to let you use power attack and 1.5x strength bonus to damage. Combined with the ability to do 2x damage on any attack made in that round, letting you get the most out of those AoOs.

If you can make one AoO in a round you decisive strike, the decisive strike will have payed off in full at any level.

Combine that with a potion/spell of enlarge and a reach weapon and your monk will be a usefull on the battlefield, able to use his "full attack" action in a large area and being in a great position to force enemies to provoke AoOs increasing damage further.

This feature makes monks much more usefull and balanced than they are presently with flurry.

its_all_ogre
2007-11-02, 04:28 AM
i like the barbarian one, although it is let down compared to rage because you cannot just use it whenever you feel like it.
charging smite is awesome.
bardic knack is good with dms that do not use bardic knowledge very well (all the dms i have played with).

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-02, 06:17 AM
Ever since PH2 came out, every monk in our campaigns has used it. It seriously makes the monk way better. (decisive strike that is)

Of course they are also combining it with several other feats as well... one that adds a whole ton of acid damage? One that increases their fist damage (in addition to INA).

SpikeFightwicky
2007-11-02, 06:47 AM
Decisive blow is about 10x better than flurry.

1. You do double damage on your hit

2. You are not penalized for power attacking with a two handed weapon like you are with flurry.

3. ALL attacks made in the round have their damage doubled.

You make your attack at double damage a trip attack, with improved trip after tripping the monster/creature you power attack the poor sod who is on the ground at a -4 penalty[the same as his dropped AC from being prone] with your quarterstaff or large tripping monk weapon. The -4 penalty adds +8 damage and that gets doubled to 16.

Then when he gets up, you do it again with the AoO he provokes.

With smart manuvering you end up trading a couple of weak attacks for a couple of strong attacks.

At low levels its just as good as flurry if not better. At high levels it lets you use power attack easier and is a whole lot better than flurry.

If you attack someone on the AoO he provokes through standing up, you don't get to trip him again. He's still considered prone while you take your attack, and you can't trip a prone character to make him 'proner'.

AslanCross
2007-11-02, 06:47 AM
3. increases the damage of all attacks you make in the round, so if enemies provoke 3 attacks, each of those attacks will do double damage



Actually, it says "make one attack at your highest base attack bonus at a -2 penalty." That negates all your STR (or DEX, if you've got Weapon Finesse) modifiers. It only deals double damage if it hits, and it says nothing about AOOs. Sure, when you're at a high enough level it also adds a second attack and the penalty disappears, but from the wording in the book it definitely doesn't modifiy AOOs.

Kaelik
2007-11-02, 07:21 AM
Actually, it says "make one attack at your highest base attack bonus at a -2 penalty." That negates all your STR (or DEX, if you've got Weapon Finesse) modifiers.

I don't have the exact text so I'm not going to bother with the AoO case, but there are many abilities that say "do X at your highest BAB" in DnD. That doesn't mean you negate Str to hit.

Even the actual text for Attack (as a standard action) states that you make one attack at your highest Base Attack Bonus. Does that mean that no attack in the game gets Str to hit? Of course not.

Morty
2007-11-02, 08:25 AM
Ranger's variant is good for archer rangers, and it synergizes greatly with rogue even in melee, while letting you not bother about fairly weak animal companion.

AslanCross
2007-11-02, 08:34 AM
Now you are just being dense on purpose. I don't have the exact text so I'm not going to bother with the AoO case, but there are many abilities that say "do X at your highest BAB" in DnD. That doesn't mean you negate Str to hit.

Even the actual text for Attack (as a standard action) states that you make one attack at your highest Base Attack Bonus. Does that mean that no attack in the game gets Str to hit? Of course not.

Oh, sorry, I guess I misread that. I do think your choice of words is unnecessary, though.

Kaelik
2007-11-02, 08:39 AM
Oh, sorry, I guess I misread that. I do think your choice of words is unnecessary, though.

You are probably right.

Wagadodo
2007-11-02, 09:38 AM
Okay I just have one question about the PHII, they have an alternate class feature for everything but Ninja? So why is that. To lazy to actually go to look at the Wizards boards as to the reason for it.

VerdugoExplode
2007-11-02, 10:05 AM
Well, if they made an alternate class feature for every base class they have every created the PHB2 would be about 4 times as large and cost around $200 which seems a bit excessive. Besides, classes found in other books tend to be variations of the core classes anyway, with your ninja being a combination of a rogue and a monk.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 10:53 AM
Okay I just have one question about the PHII, they have an alternate class feature for everything but Ninja? So why is that. To lazy to actually go to look at the Wizards boards as to the reason for it.

Lessee...no alt class feature for Ninja, Spellthief, Wu Jen, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, Healer, or Samurai. Ninja weren't the only ones left out.

its_all_ogre
2007-11-02, 11:12 AM
because all those classes listed are clearly overpowered.
like the soulknife.

so why did the monk get a alternative feature?:smallbiggrin:

Skyserpent
2007-11-02, 11:59 AM
Conjuration specialist is obscene.

That wizard can now: INSTANTLY teleport 10ft away if you ever try to charge it. Every round. Full attack? Not likely!

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 12:33 PM
Conjuration specialist is obscene.

That wizard can now: INSTANTLY teleport 10ft away if you ever try to charge it. Every round. Full attack? Not likely!

Doing so also uses his swift action for his next turn. No quickened spells for you.

Morty
2007-11-02, 01:26 PM
Doing so also uses his swift action for his next turn. No quickened spells for you.

How many quickened spells will wizard cast before level 10?

Frosty
2007-11-02, 01:27 PM
he can also only do it for a limited amount of times a day. He'll eventually get hit. But yes, there's no reason to not go Conj specialist anymore. Ban evocation and use Orb spells for damage.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 01:30 PM
How many quickened spells will wizard cast before level 10?

Enough. Especially with Metamagic School Focus and/or Arcane Thesis and/or Easy Metamagic. Hooray quickened spells for +1 adjustment.

Kaelik
2007-11-02, 01:36 PM
Doing so also uses his swift action for his next turn. No quickened spells for you.

Quickened Spells take a free action, not a swift, just a specific kind of free action that can only be used once a round. As such he still gets quickened spells just fine, but can't use any of the spells with swift casting time to get off three spells in one round.

Also, where/what is Easy Metamagic?

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 01:38 PM
Quickened Spells take a free action, not a swift, just a specific kind of free action that can only be used once a round. As such he still gets quickened spells just fine, but can't use any of the spells with swift casting time to get off three spells in one round.

Also, where/what is Easy Metamagic?

Bzzt. Wrong.


Quicken Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

Casting a quickened spell is an swift action. You can perform another action, even casting another spell, in the same round as you cast a quickened spell. You may cast only one quickened spell per round. A spell whose casting time is more than 1 full round action cannot be quickened. A quickened spell uses up a spell slot four levels higher than the spell’s actual level. Casting a quickened spell doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity.
Special

This feat can’t be applied to any spell cast spontaneously (including sorcerer spells, bard spells, and cleric or druid spells cast spontaneously), since applying a metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell automatically increases the casting time to a full-round action.

jameswilliamogle
2007-11-02, 01:39 PM
I really like the Druid variant, though wish it wouldn't remove the animal companion, and not being able to cast spells while shapeshifted sucks, though its not horrid (as swift actions)... Does anyone know of a way to get the companion back, btw?

Frosty
2007-11-02, 01:43 PM
Houserule it.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 01:43 PM
I really like the Druid variant, though wish it wouldn't remove the animal companion, and not being able to cast spells while shapeshifted sucks, though its not horrid (as swift actions)... Does anyone know of a way to get the companion back, btw?

There's a feat on the WotC website called Wild Cohort that does just that.

Kaelik
2007-11-02, 02:14 PM
Bzzt. Wrong.

Bzzt. Wrong.

PHB errata does not address Quicken Spell. PHB has no rules for swift actions. Primary Source Rule PHB>Changes made in the SRD (probably made in d20 SRD not even the official one). A quickened spell is a free action.

BardicDuelist
2007-11-02, 02:18 PM
Bzzt. Wrong.

PHB errata does not address Quicken Spell. PHB has no rules for swift actions. Primary Source Rule PHB>Changes made in the SRD (probably made in d20 SRD not even the official one). A quickened spell is a free action.

From the Miniature's Handbook (the official/origonal sorce for swift actions): Casting a quickened spell is a swift action.

Basically, Core: Free action. Anything that uses swift actions: Swift Action.

So...Bzzt. Wrong. I suppose.

Frosty
2007-11-02, 02:23 PM
PHB2 states that quickened spells are swift actions. I see the PHB2 as an update to PHB, so it trumps the PHB.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 02:24 PM
Bzzt. Wrong.

PHB errata does not address Quicken Spell. PHB has no rules for swift actions. Primary Source Rule PHB>Changes made in the SRD (probably made in d20 SRD not even the official one). A quickened spell is a free action.

Actually, Primary Source of Swift and Immediate Actions, the XPH or the Miniatures Handbook depending on who you talk to, states that a quickened spell or power is a Swift Action.

Shisumo
2007-11-02, 02:28 PM
Actually, Primary Source of Swift and Immediate Actions, the XPH or the Miniatures Handbook depending on who you talk to, states that a quickened spell or power is a Swift Action.

...along with every single Swift/Immediate Actions sidebar I can find in my books.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 02:31 PM
...along with every single Swift/Immediate Actions sidebar I can find in my books.

Yup. That's exactly the reason you'll find swift and immediate actions within the SRD: they're originally an alternative rule that became so prevalent and widespread that they decided to alter the Core rules.

jameswilliamogle
2007-11-02, 02:41 PM
There's a feat on the WotC website called Wild Cohort that does just that.thanks for that! excellent... most excellent...

off hand, do you know if i could take the Wild Druid and Shapeshift Druid using this feat?

Frosty
2007-11-02, 02:49 PM
Wild Cohort is nowhere as good as the Animal Companion.

Temp
2007-11-02, 02:50 PM
I'm actually okay with the Animal Companion going. It was cheesy and the Druid didn't need it.

It isn't like the Druid can't still use Wild Empathy/Handle Animal to similar (but less overwhelmingly powerful) effect.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 02:53 PM
It isn't like the Druid can't still use Wild Empathy/Handle Animal to similar (but less overwhelmingly powerful) effect.

Or summon nature's ally, for that matter.

Kaelik
2007-11-02, 03:05 PM
From the Miniature's Handbook (the official/origonal sorce for swift actions): Casting a quickened spell is a swift action.

Basically, Core: Free action. Anything that uses swift actions: Swift Action.

So...Bzzt. Wrong. I suppose.

We should really cut out the Bzzt Wronging. My own was just a sarcastic rejoinder to what I see as a flawed certitude and offensive remark.

Primary Source Rule creates inherent contradictions in cases such as this where one could argue "primary source" for both the feat and the action type. However the Primary Source Rule pretty explicitly states that the PHB take precedence over everything else when it comes to playing the game, and so any action type stated to be free in the PHB remains so no matter what the XPH says.

Quickened Spells as a swift action makes a great deal of sense and may be worth using. And the actual rules as regards quickened spell actions are stupid as hell, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-02, 03:16 PM
We should really cut out the Bzzt Wronging. My own was just a sarcastic rejoinder to what I see as a flawed certitude and offensive remark.

Primary Source Rule creates inherent contradictions in cases such as this where one could argue "primary source" for both the feat and the action type. However the Primary Source Rule pretty explicitly states that the PHB take precedence over everything else when it comes to playing the game, and so any action type stated to be free in the PHB remains so no matter what the XPH says.

Quickened Spells as a swift action makes a great deal of sense and may be worth using. And the actual rules as regards quickened spell actions are stupid as hell, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.

The primary source rule for PHB superiority only is effective when the PHB actually contains rules that are not explicitly overridden by the newer rule. The XPH and the MHB both explicitly state that--among other alterations--quickened powers and spells are swift, not free, actions. Since the newer book explicitly states that it overrides, it does.

Jasdoif
2007-11-02, 03:19 PM
The primary source rule for PHB superiority only is effective when the PHB actually contains rules that are not explicitly overridden by the newer rule. The XPH and the MHB both explicitly state that--among other alterations--quickened powers and spells are swift, not free, actions. Since the newer book explicitly states that it overrides, it does....and if you don't use said alterations, you don't have (RAW) swift or immediate actions in your game, which pretty much negates the Conjurer variant in question.

Goumindong
2007-11-03, 11:53 AM
Actually, it says "make one attack at your highest base attack bonus at a -2 penalty." That negates all your STR (or DEX, if you've got Weapon Finesse) modifiers. It only deals double damage if it hits, and it says nothing about AOOs. Sure, when you're at a high enough level it also adds a second attack and the penalty disappears, but from the wording in the book it definitely doesn't modifiy AOOs.

Besides being wrong, the "highest base attack" means that its not iterative.

If you bother to look at your flurry bonus it says "When you make a full attack action, make an extra attack at your highest base attack bonus, all attacks in the round take a minus two penalty"

And if you bothered to look at the text for decisive strike you would have noticed it says "If the attack hits, it deals double damage (As does any other attack you make until the start of your next turn)."

So lets say you have a monk with

Decisive Strike[class feature]
Power Attack
Improved Trip[bonus feat]
Combat Reflexes[bonus feat]
Knock-Down

Wielding a quarterstaff. He is level 6, he has 16 strength, and a decent amount of dex.

Any time he hits a guy for more than 10 damage, he can make a free trip attempt.

So he gets enlarged so that he now threatens two squares. He Decicisive strikes some guy at +6 before weapon modifiers, if he hits he does 2d6+8 damage an automatically initiates a trip attempt, which he is good at since he is large and has improved trip. He then trips the guy and as per improved trip gets to make a free attack. He attacks again, but this time since the guy is prone, power attacks for -4. He now does 2d6+24 damage when he hits and his bonus to attack is +3[because only the decisive strike takes the penalty

Then, when the guy tries to move or stand up in the next round, since this is still any attack he has made before the begining of his next turn he gets another AoO against the guy for 2d6+24 damage.

And with 14 dex, he still has another AoO there to thwack a guy for 2d6+8 > 2d6+24. He has a total damage on this one character ignoring any other AoOs at 6d6+54

Now a flurrying monk doing the same thing would have done 2d6+3, +2d6+3, +2d6+3[and had a harder time tripping], +2d6+3.

For a total damage of 8d6+12

Is 2d6 worth +44 damage?

Even without knockdown, decisive strike is the best thing to ever happen to monks. It lets them get around their most painful disadvantage, which is being a two weapon fighter based character without extra damage die

Decisive strike lets him exploit the enhancement bonus on weapons more and enhancements such as collision, since they are counted as damage and not extra damage die and are so doubled. It lets hime exploit all the cool battlefield control feats in the PHBII that essentially force creatures to move 5ft or provoke AoOs[excuse me while i knight multiclass for a few levels to fix them being able to move]. The only thing it doesnt do for a monk is make the rest of his bonuses really worthwhile, but that is O.K. really.

Here, lets put it this way. Decisive strike is equivelent to the super-awesome fighter substitute level he gets at level 16. There is no reason to not take it. Always take decisive strike, its awesome it will make you awesome.

Edit: Lets put it this way, every monk i play and every monk i design for someone to play has decisive strike because its that good.

Nonah_Me
2007-11-03, 12:51 PM
I'm the only one that likes domain sponenaety for clerics?

Sorc metamagic is good, Immediate Magic is good (when I DM most of my players forget about their familiars anyway, so I usually have them take it if they specialize). The scout alternative seems to confuse me, but I always have trouble visualizing in 3D when I play tabletop games.

On an unrelated note: The artwork for each of the "iconics" (except for Mialee) is awesome. Especially the favored soul.

AslanCross
2007-11-03, 05:45 PM
And if you bothered to look at the text for decisive strike you would have noticed it says "If the attack hits, it deals double damage (As does any other attack you make until the start of your next turn)."



Okay, I totally missed that. My bad.


And yeah, the art for the iconics in PHB2 is pretty awesome. That's one of the reasons I got it. Poor Mialee, though. (At least she looks better there than in the PHB. >_o)

Lord Iames Osari
2007-11-03, 06:26 PM
How does flurry qunitupple your damage at level 11?

I never said flurry quintuples your damage at level 11. I said flurry quintuples your damage at level 15, assuming that your flurries hit. At 11th level, your damage is only quadrupled. I assume that the flurry hits because you assume that decisive strike hits.

Actually, that's one way in which flurry is better than decisive strike. If you miss once or twice in a flurry, you can afford to do so, and you'll still deal at least your normal damage. Contrast this with decisive strike, where a single failed attack roll makes it useless (I'm disregarding AoOs, since it's always a bad idea to assume that enemies will be so obliging as to do what you want them to do). With flurry, you have multiple chances to hit, and even if you miss all but one of your attacks, you're still doing your normal damage.


How is "limited mobility" worse than "limited mobility"?

A: It isnt

And I never said it was. I only said that in this respect, both were equally sucky.


Flurry sucks really hard. You gain two high iterative attacks and lose the ability to power attack. Oh hey, its a slightly better version of two weapon fighting! Which sucks unless you can add things like sneak attack dice to it.

Where does it say you can't Power Attack while flurrying? I have never before encountered that rule, if indeed it is an actual rule.


Now, lets take decisive strke.

At low levels:

1. Same average damage before strength modifiers

So, in other words, they're even.


2. Lets you use 1.5x your strengh modifier and use power attack.

Waiting for someone to cite me the rule that flurrying cannot be combined with Power Attack and/or two-handed weapons.


3. increases the damage of all attacks you make in the round, so if enemies provoke 3 attacks, each of those attacks will do double damage

Which is: 1 attack, assuming your enemies are not kind enough to provoke AoOs, and/or you lack the Combat Reflexes feat.


Let me re-iterate this.

1. It lets you use power attack to near the full potential of a fighter.

2. It lets you use power attack to near the full potential of a fighter.

Are these supposed to be different points?


3. It makes AoO monkeys that arent fighters do a lot of damage

Here you have a point.


Heck, lets take an average monk 10/16/10/10/16/10 and he has weapon finesse. +3 to attack +0 to damage. Has 3 AoOs

and turn him into 14/14/10/10/16/10

+2 to attack and +3 to damage. Now we add power attack. Has 2 AoOs


Build 1 flurry dmg + 3 AoOs = 1d6+0 x 5 = 5d6
Build 2 Decicisve dmg + 2 AoOs = 2d6+6 x 3 = 6d6+18

The power is in its ability to let you use power attack and 1.5x strength bonus to damage. Combined with the ability to do 2x damage on any attack made in that round, letting you get the most out of those AoOs.

If you can make one AoO in a round you decisive strike, the decisive strike will have payed off in full at any level.

And if your enemies are not so obliging? What then?

Look, I'm not saying decisive strike isn't useful. I'm just saying that it isn't as incredibly better than flurry as you seem to think.

Temp
2007-11-03, 06:28 PM
Yeah, the art's a step up for most of 'em. Not the Hexblade, though, but the Swashbuckler's a massive improvement.


I'm the only one that likes domain sponenaety for clerics?
No way. That 'un's a keeper.

Fax Celestis
2007-11-03, 06:30 PM
Look, I'm not saying decisive strike isn't useful. I'm just saying that it isn't as incredibly better than flurry as you seem to think.

Given two options, it's the better choice. Given a third--that is, playing a different class that doesn't work against itself--I'd go with that.

brian c
2007-11-03, 06:40 PM
Lessee...no alt class feature for Ninja, Spellthief, Wu Jen, Shugenja, Spirit Shaman, Healer, or Samurai. Ninja weren't the only ones left out.

I can see it now...

Alternative Clas Feature: Samurai.

Give up: Sucking

Gain: Not sucking quite as much

(specifics may vary)

Goumindong
2007-11-03, 06:46 PM
I never said flurry quintuples your damage at level 11. I said flurry quintuples your damage at level 15, assuming that your flurries hit. At 11th level, your damage is only quadrupled. I assume that the flurry hits because you assume that decisive strike hits.

Flurry only ever gives you two more attacks, at level 15 you get a total of 5 attacks 11/6/1 and 11/11 with flurry

At the most assuming that you never hit with your iterative attacks that tripples your damage. But that is not the case. As well, you are not able to exploit power attack with flurry of blows.


(I'm disregarding AoOs, since it's always a bad idea to assume that enemies will be so obliging as to do what you want them to do)

This is why you build your build to force opponents to do that.


Where does it say you can't Power Attack while flurrying? I have never before encountered that rule, if indeed it is an actual rule.

Oh, you can power attack all you want, but you do +1 damage for every -1 penalty you take, and in order to do that you have to forgo your unarmed attack weapon progression since only the quarterstaff is a monk weapon which is also not a light weapon.


Which is: 1 attack, assuming your enemies are not kind enough to provoke AoOs, and/or you lack the Combat Reflexes feat.

Combat reflexes is a bonus feat the monk can take at level two... You then build yourself to exploit AoOs. Such as improved trip, and knockdown. Now every time you hit you get an extra attack[at 2x damage], so long as they arent tripped already, and then when they get up...


Look, I'm not saying decisive strike isn't useful. I'm just saying that it isn't as incredibly better than flurry as you seem to think.

No, it is always either as i said, incredibly better or no loss. There are no downsides to running decisive strike instead of flurry.

Lord Iames Osari
2007-11-03, 07:03 PM
Power Attack works with unarmed strikes, despite the fact that they are also light weapons. Says so right in the Power Attack feat description.

3.5 monks don't have an "unarmed attack progression".

And correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the quarterstaff a two-handed weapon? So it would in fact exploit the two-for-one with two-handed weapons aspect of Power Attack.


...I think now I'm being contrary just for the sake of it.

The_Snark
2007-11-03, 07:07 PM
Just a comment—you've stated that using Decisive Strike allowed you to add 1.5 times your Strength modifier to damage. It doesn't; you still add your Strength to damage. (And then you double it, but you deal the damage twice).

There's also nothing preventing you from Power Attacking with a flurry of blows.

So far as I can tell, the main differences between the two...

-Flurry of Blows makes it more likely that you'll hit with at least one attack and do some damage, but less likely that you'll hit with all of them and do full damage.

-Decisive Strike makes it more likely that you'll do your full damage potential, but it's also more likely that you miss and do nothing. It's also better for AoO builds.

Decisive Strike is probably the better of the two, but I don't think I've ever played a monk who didn't have some sort of carrier effect on the unarmed strike, like negative levels, so I've always used Flurry of Blows.

Goumindong
2007-11-03, 09:39 PM
if you use decicive strike with a two handed weapon you add 1.5x str to damage.

You also power attack as a two handed weapon with a two handed weapon.

Flurry does not allow you to power attack as a two handed weapon, only as a one handed weapon.

edit: 3.5 monks sure as hell have unarmed attack progression.

brian c
2007-11-03, 09:57 PM
edit: 3.5 monks sure as hell have unarmed attack progression.

In 3.5, monks have unarmed strike damage progression.

In 3.0, monks had a separate attack progression for unarmed as opposed to weapons.

Dullyanna
2007-11-03, 10:19 PM
Flurry does not allow you to power attack as a two handed weapon, only as a one handed weapon.

That's wrong. When using flurry, a monk applies her strength bonus alone, not 1/2 strength for light weapons, or 1.5 strength for two handed weapons. It doesn't say she can't use power attack. Because of that, I'd also assume that power attack progression for two-handed weapons is 1 for 1 during flurries.

Goumindong
2007-11-03, 10:25 PM
That's wrong. When using flurry, a monk applies her strength bonus alone, not 1/2 strength for light weapons, or 1.5 strength for two handed weapons. It doesn't say she can't use power attack. Because of that, I'd also assume that power attack progression for two-handed weapons is 1 for 1 during flurries.
Which is exactly what i said.[but only with unarmed attacks(specific light weapon exception) and quarterstaffs]

And power attack is not valuable without the 1:2 progression.

Dullyanna
2007-11-03, 10:55 PM
Sorry. I think I misread what you said. The problem with decisive strike, IMHO, is that damn 3/4 BAB the monks get. Please note that I'm not trying to say that it's better or worse than flurry. I kinda like the chaos monk, myself (Not that it's actually better or anything, unless, as Snark said, you've got side affects to your blows)

AslanCross
2007-11-04, 06:25 AM
I noticed something interesting. Flurry of Blows requires the Monk to be unarmored. Decisive Blow says nothing about being unarmored. So if you're a bit insane and want to forgo a lot of your class features in order to raise your AC, you can actually be an armored monk and use Decisive Strike!

kpenguin
2007-11-04, 06:34 AM
A pity that it is a full-round action. I could see people using it as a dip for very powerful comboes with power attack.