[Optimising a build] - Grappling 101

[Wraith]

Lately I've been tinkering with builds to try and optimise a character whose primary method of melee combat is grappling.

I am aware of the oxymoron in that sentence, just go with it please. :smalltongue: I just happen to like the idea of being able to completely shut down one or two enemies non-magically, until the party are ready to deal with them.

Turns out that there's more options than I first thought and I can't decide if the one that I have settled on is the 'best' or not. I'd appreciate any advice or recommendations on the subject from anyone who has any ideas?

The build I've gone with so far:

RACE: Goliath
+2STR and +1CON is pretty great, but I'm particularly interested in Powerful Build. Grappling lets you drag people around the battlefield, dropping them off cliffs or pushing them into hazards, so doubling your carrying capacity seems like fun. They also get an innate proficiency in Athletics which is immensely useful as it means our class skills can go elsewhere, or we can even pick a completely different class if needs be.

LEVEL 1 - Fighter 1
Fighting Style is Defensive; since we expect to have our hands full - both figuratively and literally - with enemies, it might not be easy to always carry a shield

LEVEL 2 - Rogue 1
The fastest way to get Expertise in Athletics, given how it can limit our options I feel that we need to be *good* at it. I also prefer it at second level as Heavy Armour seems particularly important, and we lose that if we start with Rogue at level 1.

LEVEL 3 & 4 - Fighter 2 & 3
For our subclass we take Eldritch Knight. This gives us access to some buffs and makes us more self-sufficient rather than relying on the party for help. Shield in particular is going to be a useful spell in lieu of being able to move out of harms' way.

Other useful spells include:

Poison Spray - Ideally we're grappling with +8 or better and they're now defending with Disadvantage.
Lightning Lure - You can grapple more than 1 person at a time, but grappling makes you slow; this brings THEM to YOU and softens them up into the bargain.
Mold Earth - No cliff nearby to throw an enemy off? Make a pit and drop them into it instead. Bonus if you then bury them up to their neck with a second casting and keep them safe for later...
Create Bonfire - Same principle, but more direct (and sadistic). Can also be used by other party members with similar battlefield-controlling abilities.

LEVEL 5 - Fighter 4
Between Goliath race, standard spread of stats and this +2 put in STR we should quite reliably have 20STR at level 5, which is useful.

LEVEL 6 & 7 - Fighter 5 & 6
This gives us an Extra Attack which means that we can Grapple and then Shove Prone an enemy in the same turn without using Action Surge, which is extremely powerful particularly against enemy spellcasters.
For our second ASI I'm tempted to forgo the stat increase and instead pick up a feat - probably Warcaster. Since grappling reduces our movement speed it's likely that we're not going to be able to move away from enemies, so being able to concentrate on our buffs feels important - particularly for next level....

LEVEL 8 & 9 - Fighter 7 & 8
War Magic at Eldritch Knight 7 is fun because we're going to be standing over an enemy Wizard, twisting their arm out of joint and gently Sneak Attacking them with our off-hand. Being able to do that after casting a cantrip one-handed (due to Warcaster) feels particularly efficient. We also get Level 2 spells - whatever we pick doesn't especially matter because....

Eldritch Knight 8 allows us to pick a non-Evocation, non-Abjuration level 2 spell, and it has to be Enlarge. This is more or less the capstone of the build as it turns our already impressive Athletics roll (likely +10 even without items or other buffs) into one with consistent Advantage. Because we're a Goliath that means we can lift and carry with an effective size of Huge - at 20STR that works out well in excess of 2000lbs, so there's very little that we can't walk off a cliff or into a Bonfire.

What we do with the level 8 ASI hardly even matters. Shield Master is probably the way to go, so long as we don't mind only grappling one enemy at a time - the 'free' shove gives us room to cast more cantrips, and the pseudo-Evasion ability is also great if we're too slow to move out of the way of harmful spell effects.

There's a few other ways we could go, please let me know if I missed anything particularly noteworthy or that you think would work better:

RACE: Duergar (SCAG) - Innate Enlarge at level 3 is a game changer, as we're getting that Advantage WAY earlier and don't need to rely on a spellcasting class. Good stat distribution, too.

RACE: Variant Human - Because of course. More rounded stats than the other two, and with the feat we can pick up Shield Master early or even Tavern Brawler to improve our grapple-to-damage efficiency.

CLASS: Monk (Way of Shadows) - We're fast, we don't need Heavy Armour, and we're particularly good at dragging Wizards into a Silence bubble and holding them there. Makes us pretty MAD though, as now STR, DEX and WIS are at a premium whereas before we just needed STR and a smidge of DEX for multiclassing.

CLASS: Bard (College of Lore) - Expertise at level 3, Cutting Words to detract from escape attempts, Enlarge from Magical Secrets, and all without multiclassing. Only having d8 Hit Dice and Light Armour is going to make us pretty fragile, though.

FEAT: Mobile - Maybe not a high priority, but definitely something I would pick up later when spellcasters start picking up higher level spells and approaching them quickly becomes more urgent.

[Dork_Forge]

Seeing as the Unarmed Style will be making it into Tasha's that seems like a no brainer for this kind of thing, automatically dealing 1d4 to someone you grapple and getting that as additional damage everytime you hit them whilst grappled makes it look a lot more viable very quickly.

The only other thing I'd throw in for consideration is the Battle Rager Barbarian, they get to deal an additional 3 piercing damage on a successful grapple.

[Wraith]

The problem with Barbarian is that they can't cast spells or Concentrate while Raging.

In a low level game where spells are less common then it's awesome, but progressing beyond that means you'll have to ask the party to maintain your Bonfire/Silence for you and you can't throw up a Shield spell if you need it. Doable, but I'm hoping for something a little more self-sufficient if possible :smallsmile:

Nice call on Unarmed Style though, I hadn't seen that one yet. Thank you!

[Dork_Forge]

The problem with Barbarian is that they can't Concentrate while Raging.

In a low level game where spells are less common then it's awesome, but progressing beyond that means you'll have to ask the party to maintain your Bonfire/Enlarge/Silence for you. Doable, but I'm hoping for something a little more self-sufficient if possible :smallsmile:

Nice call on Unarmed Style though, I hadn't seen that one yet. Thank you!

I can understand the desire for self sufficiency, the advantage on grapple checks is nice but if you're grabbing expertise and max strength not really necessary anyway.

[AttilatheYeon]

I can understand the desire for self sufficiency, the advantage on grapple checks is nice but if you're grabbing expertise and max strength not really necessary anyway.

Enlarge also lets you grapple one size category larger.

[Unoriginal]

Lately I've been tinkering with builds to try and optimise a character whose primary method of melee combat is grappling.

I am aware of the oxymoron in that sentence, just go with it please. :smalltongue: I just happen to like the idea of being able to completely shut down one or two enemies non-magically, until the party are ready to deal with them.

Turns out that there's more options than I first thought and I can't decide if the one that I have settled on is the 'best' or not. I'd appreciate any advice or recommendations on the subject from anyone who has any ideas?

The build I've gone with so far:

RACE: Goliath
+2STR and +1CON is pretty great, but I'm particularly interested in Powerful Build. Grappling lets you drag people around the battlefield, dropping them off cliffs or pushing them into hazards, so doubling your carrying capacity seems like fun. They also get an innate proficiency in Athletics which is immensely useful as it means our class skills can go elsewhere, or we can even pick a completely different class if needs be.

LEVEL 1 - Fighter 1
Fighting Style is Defensive; since we expect to have our hands full - both figuratively and literally - with enemies, it might not be easy to always carry a shield

LEVEL 2 - Rogue 1
The fastest way to get Expertise in Athletics, given how it can limit our options I feel that we need to be *good* at it. I also prefer it at second level as Heavy Armour seems particularly important, and we lose that if we start with Rogue at level 1.

LEVEL 3 & 4 - Fighter 2 & 3
For our subclass we take Eldritch Knight. This gives us access to some buffs and makes us more self-sufficient rather than relying on the party for help. Shield in particular is going to be a useful spell in lieu of being able to move out of harms' way.

Other useful spells include:

Poison Spray - Ideally we're grappling with +8 or better and they're now defending with Disadvantage.
Lightning Lure - You can grapple more than 1 person at a time, but grappling makes you slow; this brings THEM to YOU and softens them up into the bargain.
Mold Earth - No cliff nearby to throw an enemy off? Make a pit and drop them into it instead. Bonus if you then bury them up to their neck with a second casting and keep them safe for later...
Create Bonfire - Same principle, but more direct (and sadistic). Can also be used by other party members with similar battlefield-controlling abilities.

LEVEL 5 - Fighter 4
Between Goliath race, standard spread of stats and this +2 put in STR we should quite reliably have 20STR at level 5, which is useful.

LEVEL 6 & 7 - Fighter 5 & 6
This gives us a Second Attack which means that we can Grapple and then Shove Prone an enemy in the same turn without using Action Surge, which is extremely powerful particularly against enemy spellcasters.
For our second ASI I'm tempted to forgo the stat increase and instead pick up a feat - probably Warcaster. Since grappling reduces our movement speed it's likely that we're not going to be able to move away from enemies, so being able to concentrate on our buffs feels important - particularly for next level....

LEVEL 8 & 9 - Fighter 7 & 8
War Magic at Eldritch Knight 7 is fun because we're going to be standing over an enemy Wizard, twisting their arm out of joint and gently Sneak Attacking them with our off-hand. Being able to do that after casting a cantrip one-handed (due to Warcaster) feels particularly efficient. We also get Level 2 spells - whatever we pick doesn't especially matter because....

Eldritch Knight 8 allows us to pick a non-Evocation, non-Abjuration level 2 spell, and it has to be Enlarge. This is more or less the capstone of the build as it turns our already impressive Athletics roll (likely +10 even without items or other buffs) into one with consistent Advantage. Because we're a Goliath that means we can lift and carry with an effective size of Huge - at 20STR that works out well in excess of 2000lbs, so there's very little that we can't walk off a cliff or into a Bonfire.

What we do with the level 8 ASI hardly even matters. Shield Master is probably the way to go, so long as we don't mind only grappling one enemy at a time - the 'free' shove gives us room to cast more cantrips, and the pseudo-Evasion ability is also great if we're too slow to move out of the way of harmful spell effects.

There's a few other ways we could go, please let me know if I missed anything particularly noteworthy or that you think would work better:

RACE: Duergar (SCAG) - Innate Enlarge at level 3 is a game changer, as we're getting that Advantage WAY earlier and don't need to rely on a spellcasting class. Good stat distribution, too.

RACE: Variant Human - Because of course. More rounded stats than the other two, and with the feat we can pick up Shield Master early or even Tavern Brawler to improve our grapple-to-damage efficiency.

CLASS: Monk (Way of Shadows) - We're fast, we don't need Heavy Armour, and we're particularly good at dragging Wizards into a Silence bubble and holding them there. Makes us pretty MAD though, as now STR, DEX and WIS are at a premium whereas before we just needed STR and a smidge of DEX for multiclassing.

CLASS: Bard (College of Lore) - Expertise at level 3, Cutting Words to detract from escape attempts, Enlarge from Magical Secrets, and all without multiclassing. Only having d8 Hit Dice and Light Armour is going to make us pretty fragile, though.

FEAT: Mobile - Maybe not a high priority, but definitely something I would pick up later when spellcasters start picking up higher level spells and approaching them quickly becomes more urgent.

Powerful Build has no effect on grappling, the only restriction is the enemy's size, not their weight.

I know that 'cause I once tried to see if you could make a PC too heavy for grappling.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry for the double post. Am on mobile, will edit when I get home.


The problem with Barbarian is that they can't cast spells or Concentrate while Raging.

Where is it written? I'm fairly certain they can hold Concentration, just not cast new spells.

[AttilatheYeon]

Sorry for the double post. Am on mobile, will edit when I get home.



Where is it written? I'm fairly certain they can hold Concentration, just not cast new spells.

Players Handbook. Description of Barbarian Rage.

[stoutstien]

The rune knight coming out might be the best path for grappling.

[Wraith]

Powerful Build has no effect on grappling, the only restriction is the enemy's size, not their weight.

It's an indirect benefit - Powerful Build increases your lift/drag capacity, and while grappling people you can explicitly lift/drag them around the battlefield. This *is* affected by encumbrance, so the more you can lift then the more options you have.

Having a higher capacity doesn't improve the grapple itself, but it's helpful for controlling larger enemies, heavily armoured enemies, and/or if you decide to be a hero and grapple two enemies with one in either hand. I admit it might not be as important to the build as I have described, but I think it's funny and would like to keep it. :smalltongue:


I know that 'cause I once tried to see if you could make a PC too heavy for grappling.

STR20 x 30, x2 (Powerful Build), x2 (Enlarge) = 2400lbs.

...Loxodon or Centaur with full-platemail, tower shield and also Enlarge'd, maybe? Or have a Moon Druid wildshape into a Stegosaurus, that would work. They'd be grappled, but you wouldn't be able to do much with them :smalltongue:


Players Handbook. Description of Barbarian Rage.

Page 48, according to my book.
Weirdly, it's not one of the bullet-points that describe what Rage does, but it's merged into the paragraph below them for... some reason? Easy to miss if you're just scanning for it, though.


The rune knight coming out might be the best path for grappling.

Interesting, I had completely forgotten about that one.
Giant's Might at lv 3 is pretty much Enlarge for free without needing concentration, which is awesome, and the +2STR Rune is nice. There's not much to do after that until about level 15 though - probably really good as a 3-level dip for a Barbarian or Monk grappler rather than as a main class.

[x3n0n]

As long as we're mentioning UA subclasses that are likely in Tasha's, Way of the Astral Self offers the ability to use Wisdom for Strength checks while "transformed". (It doesn't easily provide advantage on those checks, though.)

Possibly (no overt indications either way for Tasha's) the UA Practiced Expert half-feat, which provides 1 expertise with neither Rogue nor being race-bound.

[Unoriginal]

It's an indirect benefit - Powerful Build increases your lift/drag capacity, and while grappling people you can explicitly lift/drag them around the battlefield. This *is* affected by encumbrance, so the more you can lift then the more options you have.

Having a higher capacity doesn't improve the grapple itself, but it's helpful for controlling larger enemies, heavily armoured enemies, and/or if you decide to be a hero and grapple two enemies with one in either hand. I admit it might not be as important to the build as I have described, but I think it's funny and would like to keep it. :smalltongue:

What I meant is that grappling is entirely independent of lifting/dragging capacity or encumbrance as a whole, by the rules. A character who is 10lbs away from their "encumbered" limit can still grapple two horses and pull them with their movement without encumbrance penalty.

Keeping it won't hurt of course, but you don't need it to control two Enlarged Duergars in full plate.

Preasummably it's because there is no weight given for most enemies, or the fact that making enemies who are still capable of moving is much easier than carrying an inert weight.


...Loxodon or Centaur with full-platemail, tower shield and also Enlarge'd, maybe? Or have a Moon Druid wildshape into a Stegosaurus, that would work. They'd be grappled, but you wouldn't be able to do much with them :smalltongue:

Nope, just doesn't work, as I found out. Though heaviest PC without changing shape is the Warforged.


Players Handbook. Description of Barbarian Rage.




Page 48, according to my book.
Weirdly, it's not one of the bullet-points that describe what Rage does, but it's merged into the paragraph below them for... some reason? Easy to miss if you're just scanning for it, though.

Seems I missed that when I read a thread with someone saying it was possible to keep Concentrating when in rage, then. Thanks for telling me.



Interesting, I had completely forgotten about that one.
Giant's Might at lv 3 is pretty much Enlarge for free without needing concentration, which is awesome, and the +2STR Rune is nice. There's not much to do after that until about level 15 though - probably really good as a 3-level dip for a Barbarian or Monk grappler rather than as a main class.

Well at least Rune Knights do have access to Fighting Styles, plus Action Surge and Second Wind, so all three levels of the dip are useful.

[MrStabby]

So I will say again the usual thing I say when a grapple optimisation thread comes up... don't invest too heavily.

Grappling usually works with pretty limited investment. High strength and proficiency in athletics will mean you will win most die rolls on this. Throw in one source of bonus beyond this, say expertise and you are winning the vast majority of the time.

The problem is that some enemies just can't be grappled. Too big, immune to the condition, flying and so out of reach and so on. Some of these can be mitigated through spells like enlarge/reduce... but then you are spending not only spell slots but precious actions to do this. Better to cut your losses - a light dip into grappling and develop you character to also be awesome in other ways.

My preferred approach is rogue/cleric. A dip of one level of one and the rest in the other class. Cleric can give you heavy armour, shields and some great concentration spells. Protection from good an evil is a good spell anyway, when the enemy cannot move away to hit anyone else it is even better. Rogue 1 gives you the expertise and you can always use sneak attack (rogue 2 is pretty good as well if you want to drag people about. Shield proficiency lets you make use of Shield Mastery feat as well.

More cleric lets you pretty much play a cleric... but you can wield a dagger or a rapier for some sneak attack damage and you can grapple. A grapple and spirit guardians is always quite nice (sheath your weapon and use heavy armour (for some domains) and shield).

Rogue with a dip of cleric is a bit more transformative - less running and hiding but more grapples, dashing forwards, shield bashing... You will have good...ish damage being on average half a SA die behind (which if you care about damage can be offset with things like an arcana cleric taking booming blade).

THe point is, to be able to grapple superbly when it is the right thing to do, but when grappling is just a bad option, to have really great backup plans.

[CTurbo]

I like Lizardfolk or Minotaur for grappler builds so they can have their hands full and still have decent attacks whether that is restraining 1 enemy and attacking or grappling 2 different enemies and still being able to attack.

Tavern Brawler is a good feat pick especially if you don't go with one of the 2 races above. Grappler isn't a very good feat IMO.

I really like Cleric for grappler builds too. War Cleric is probably best for this, but Tempest would work well too. Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are great spells for grapplers, and there's always Bless. Just grab Rogue 1 for the Expertise.

[LudicSavant]

Simic Hybrids make for pretty good grapplers -- they basically get the better part of Tavern Brawler and extra hands to do it with (so you can grapple multiple people *and* wield sword and board at the same time). Loxodons get an 'extra grappling hand' too.

[Wraith]

So I will say again the usual thing I say when a grapple optimisation thread comes up... don't invest too heavily.

You're entirely correct, but that's also a criticism of just about any gimmicky build. Wizards who specialise in Fire-based spells will eventually meet an enemy who is immune to fire... etc. Grappling admittedly has more flaws than most gimmicks, but I'm prepared to face the consequences of my terrible decisions - if nothing else, I'll still be a mid-level Fighter who can additionally pull out a magical longsword and Booming Blade anything that refuses to play 'properly'. :smalltongue:

Just out of curiosity, since it's clear that you have had similar discussions before: What do you think would be a good compliment as a backup to a Grappler build? For me that's why I focused on Eldritch Knight, so I could at least have some ranged/magical options available if all else failed, but as part of the 'package' I'd love to hear other suggestions?


I like Lizardfolk or Minotaur for grappler builds so they can have their hands full and still have decent attacks whether that is restraining 1 enemy and attacking or grappling 2 different enemies and still being able to attack.

I hadn't thought of Lizardman to be honest, though I don't know why - I had the same idea about Minotaur but completely forgot about Bite attacks for some reason. There's also some synergy between dragging people into hazards and being able to hold your breath for 15 minutes... nice, thank you!

...Now I kind of want to try this as a Grung. Being Small only sucks until we're Enlarged, and it's not such a bad thing if your opponent is always Poisoned from the get-go.... :smallbiggrin:


I really like Cleric for grappler builds too. War Cleric is probably best for this, but Tempest would work well too. Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians are great spells for grapplers, and there's always Bless. Just grab Rogue 1 for the Expertise.

I recently played a campaign as a Forge Cleric, that wouldn't be a bad choice too. Their problem is the same as War Cleric though - most of their relevant Domain spells require Concentration but just boost weapon damage rather than making us better Grapplers. Handy, but makes the grappling part a bit redundant.

While looking through the Domains to see which ones might work, I saw Twilight Domain and their ability to see through Magical Darkness. Level 17 seems a bit steep, but it inspired me to think that you can do the same thing with a Warlock Invocation at level 2 - drown an enemy in Darkness, grab them with Advantage, and other enemies can't find you to attack you while you deal with your victim.

Warlock (Hexblade?) Grappler. Class Skills are a bit wonky, but we can fix that with Goliath or a suitable Background. Could be a thing....

[AttilatheYeon]

one thing i like to do is grapple something then hold them in an invironmental effect. Walls of fire, Create bonfire, Cloud of Daggers, all good for a grappler build. I see you wanna go EK. They can get Create Bonfire.

[da newt]

A resource in case you haven't found it already:

https://www.enworld.org/threads/the-grapplers-manual-2-0-grappling-in-5th-edition.468737/#whygrappling

[MrStabby]

You're entirely correct, but that's also a criticism of just about any gimmicky build. Wizards who specialise in Fire-based spells will eventually meet an enemy who is immune to fire... etc. Grappling admittedly has more flaws than most gimmicks, but I'm prepared to face the consequences of my terrible decisions - if nothing else, I'll still be a mid-level Fighter who can additionally pull out a magical longsword and Booming Blade anything that refuses to play 'properly'. :smalltongue:

Just out of curiosity, since it's clear that you have had similar discussions before: What do you think would be a good compliment as a backup to a Grappler build? For me that's why I focused on Eldritch Knight, so I could at least have some ranged/magical options available if all else failed, but as part of the 'package' I'd love to hear other suggestions?

I recently played a campaign as a Forge Cleric, that wouldn't be a bad choice too. Their problem is the same as War Cleric though - most of their relevant Domain spells require Concentration but just boost weapon damage rather than making us better Grapplers. Handy, but makes the grappling part a bit redundant.


So to these points/questions...

Yeah, gimmicky builds suffer from this a bit. I think that the issue is that some people underestimate the number of things that cannot be grappled. Between immunity, size, being out of reach and being better at it than you there are a LOT of reasons why it might not work so well. Add to that the things an enemy can do to stop it - fear being a common one, and it falls down more. Add in the ability to end it as well and you have another weakness, things like misty step or command. It is worth noting that if hit someone with a sword and they use command to make you stop, then you have still hurt them. If you grapple them and are then forced to release, then it can be like you did nothing. Compared with just shooting something with a bow it is going to be less reliable. Don't get me wrong, grappling is awesome, its fun and at the right time it is very effective. It is just the right time is less common than some people think. I am absolutely not telling you to not do this - just to go into it with your eyes open.

So a good backup compliment...

You will have high strength so something that uses the attack action to make weapon attacks will be good here. You also want something that will tend to be good against creatures that are nor able to be grappled. You might also consider some spellcasting - even something as minor as bless twice per day lets you have a big impact in those fights where you cant do your thing.

So I covered cleric above - my prefered option, and rogue. Cleric is also great because of turn undead covering one particular subset of creatures that cant be grappled.

Paladin - you can build with high strength and benefit from that. You get some good low level spells as well and some of the oaths can really help you out with the supernatural things. It is a very, very powerful class as well so you won't be falling behind there. The trouble is that it is still somewhat heavily melee focussed.

Bard can work - not the best build of bard, but with expertise in athletics, valor bard's shields and armour and two attacks you are a pretty effective grappler/shieldmaster, you have full casting progression and with bardic inspiration you bring a lot to the table. The downside, and it is a bigish one, is that there is quite some overlap between what your spells do and what your grappling does. I mean, hypnotic pattern is great, fear is great, but if you are facing something like a pack of ghosts, then none of this works. On the plus side, a lot of the bard spells work on the mental saves rather than the physical so you span those nicely. Those hill giants you have difficulty grappling should fail some saves.

Eldritch knight is OK. So casting firebolt at an enemy you can't reach is pretty sucky, but with war magic you get that and a javalin. And with rogue levels you get to sneak attack so your choice is also pretty solid, I can see why you made it. If you can use UA I would recomend the recent feytouched feat. Hex and Misty step would both be very useful here.