Would this fix the storm sorcerer?

[GalvanicFour64]

So you know how the storm sorcerer is arguably the weakest of the sorcerer subclasses, regardless of the fact that it’s abilities don’t require sorcery points?

If we were to buff Tempestuous magic from 10feet to 20feet (so it would actually be useful) and change heart of the storm to do damage of sorcerer level and not half level, would that fix the subclass?

[Unoriginal]

So you know how the storm sorcerer is arguably the weakest of the sorcerer subclasses, regardless of the fact that it’s abilities don’t require sorcery points?

If we were to buff Tempestuous magic from 10feet to 20feet (so it would actually be useful) and change heart of the storm to do damage of sorcerer level and not half level, would that fix the subclass?

What exactly about the Storm Sorcerer makes it weaker than the other subclasses?

[GalvanicFour64]

What exactly about the Storm Sorcerer makes it weaker than the other subclasses?

The main premise of this subclass is to get fairly up close and personal, do a fair amount of damage and then get out of there

The problem is the 10 feet of movement doesn’t really help that much and the heart of the storm damage isn’t enough to justify going to melee range like that

The 14th and 18th level features are nice imo but they’re a bit late to the party if ygm

[Unoriginal]

The main premise of this subclass is to get fairly up close and personal, do a fair amount of damage and then get out of there

The problem is the 10 feet of movement doesn’t really help that much and the heart of the storm damage isn’t enough to justify going to melee range like that

Do you need to go in melee range? I was under the impression Storm Sorcerer was about giving you options to get out of melee range/punish those who try to force you into it.

[Kireban]

Heart of the storm will be too strong with such a buff.
A change to tempestuous magic will be nice, but i dont think that the 10ft is too short. One of the giant soul ua subclass feats was similar. It is really nice for the lvl1 aoe spells with the close range.
I hope to play this subclass soon.

[micahaphone]

Just spitballing here, but what if it was changed to letting you push around other creatures as well? Be the windy battlefield shuffling sorcerer

[Nhorianscum]

So you know how the storm sorcerer is arguably the weakest of the sorcerer subclasses, regardless of the fact that it’s abilities don’t require sorcery points?

If we were to buff Tempestuous magic from 10feet to 20feet (so it would actually be useful) and change heart of the storm to do damage of sorcerer level and not half level, would that fix the subclass?

Storm is fine as is tbh. Tempestuous magic is actually really good as is and heart is far from bad.

[Edea]

What exactly about the Storm Sorcerer makes it weaker than the other subclasses?

IMO, Storm Sorcery is fine if you're playing a multiclass Sorcadin gish, which is what I think the Origin was designed for.

For example, Tempestuous Magic from the perspective of a straight, traditional caster sorcerer is...lame. Why would I give a crap about +10 movement in exchange for my bonus action, which is needed for Flexible Casting? Spellcasting doesn't even provoke OAs, anymore. But as a gish, suddenly you're up in an opponent's face passing out smites and casting buffs, which mesh with this feature perfectly as it opens up tons of tactical options.

Another one's Heart of the Storm. If I cast witch bolt like a normal sorcerer...yay? I'm way in the back and trying to blast someone 60 feet away, big frickin' woop. But if I'm a gish, and decide to cast thunderous smite in the middle of a group of enemies, suddenly this is a pretty ballin' class feature, etc. etc..

[sophontteks]

It's fine, sure, but it's still the weakest subclass with wild only competing with a uncooperative DM. The other subclasses offer A LOT. Storm needs to multiclass to work at all.

Unfortunately 20 feet still keeps you in melee range, and I think it just makes it a better multiclass option.

Storm sorcerers need something to give them some survivability up close, or make it so their abilities dont require them to constantly be up front.

[Jerrykhor]

They are definitely not fine. How do they NOT have call lightning?

[GalvanicFour64]

IMO, Storm Sorcery is fine if you're playing a multiclass Sorcadin gish, which is what I think the Origin was designed for.

For example, Tempestuous Magic from the perspective of a straight, traditional caster sorcerer is...lame. Why would I give a crap about +10 movement in exchange for my bonus action, which is needed for Flexible Casting? Spellcasting doesn't even provoke OAs, anymore. But as a gish, suddenly you're up in an opponent's face passing out smites and casting buffs, which mesh with this feature perfectly as it opens up tons of tactical options.

Another one's Heart of the Storm. If I cast witch bolt like a normal sorcerer...yay? I'm way in the back and trying to blast someone 60 feet away, big frickin' woop. But if I'm a gish, and decide to cast thunderous smite in the middle of a group of enemies, suddenly this is a pretty ballin' class feature, etc. etc..

That’s fine but something shouldn’t be made solely to multiclass
Like it works great with tempest cleric too but like...it should on it’s own

[GalvanicFour64]

It's fine, sure, but it's still the weakest subclass with wild only competing with a uncooperative DM. The other subclasses offer A LOT. Storm needs to multiclass to work at all.

Unfortunately 20 feet still keeps you in melee range, and I think it just makes it a better multiclass option.

Storm sorcerers need something to give them some survivability up close, or make it so their abilities dont require them to constantly be up front.

Bingo.
So are the changes ok? Orrrr

[GalvanicFour64]

Storm is fine as is tbh. Tempestuous magic is actually really good as is and heart is far from bad.

On it’s own tho? Really?

[GalvanicFour64]

I've heard or seen every one of the sorcerers presented as the weakest now.

Just last month we had a thread about Celestial not giving much because cleric spells don't add much. Shadow regularly get complaints because of spending Sorc points for darkness. Wild gets a ton of bad flak because of DM fiat. And dragon doesn't have enough elements of each type except fire, and that's too resisted.

In my opinion the only valid complaint there is the wild sorcerer, and even then not too much if done right, it’s only 2 sorcery points for darkness WITH DARKVISION, With celestial the problem is with the class itself not the subclass and with dragon that’s a problem with the game, again, not the subclass

Storm is different cos it tries something and doesn’t live up to it

[Jerrykhor]

I haven't seen anyone play a Storm Sorcerer before. IMO its low key as bad as Purple DK, where if you want to play a storm based caster, you'd just play a tempest cleric.

[Skylivedk]

Maybe have the 10 ft increase to 20 ft a bit later.

Definitely needs buffing IMO though. Being compared to pdk is like being told you look good when the lights are off.

[Edea]

I mean, we can homebrew it to be juicy, but from what I'm looking at the core concept needs an overhaul.

I'm also kind-of waiting to see if Psionic Soul/Aberrant Mind/whatever shows up in TCoE legitimizes the idea of Sorcerous Origins supplying a "themed" bonus spells known table (i.e. whether the UA version stuck or not).

[Zilong]

I haven't seen anyone play a Storm Sorcerer before. IMO its low key as bad as Purple DK, where if you want to play a storm based caster, you'd just play a tempest cleric.

In the groups I’ve played in/ GM’d storm sorcerers have been the most common sorcerer subtype. They seem to keep up with the rest of the party. Honestly, even among the classes and subclasses which are considered weak (rangers, wild magic sorcerers, etc.) the ones that I’ve seen in play have no problems contributing meaningfully to the group. Granted, the storm sorcerer in m=the game that I run did die recently, but that was mostly poor tactics on their part. Like accidentally trying to solo a troll and a bunch of troglodytes at level 5.

[GalvanicFour64]

In the groups I’ve played in/ GM’d storm sorcerers have been the most common sorcerer subtype. They seem to keep up with the rest of the party. Honestly, even among the classes and subclasses which are considered weak (rangers, wild magic sorcerers, etc.) the ones that I’ve seen in play have no problems contributing meaningfully to the group. Granted, the storm sorcerer in m=the game that I run did die recently, but that was mostly poor tactics on their part. Like accidentally trying to solo a troll and a bunch of troglodytes at level 5.

But surely it could execute its abilities and hence playstyle better
I’m not saying it’s impossible to be good with it, even something as infamous as the Purple dragon knight/banneret could be played like a boss
But they can be carried out a whole lot better ygm?

[GalvanicFour64]

I mean, we can homebrew it to be juicy, but from what I'm looking at the core concept needs an overhaul.

I'm also kind-of waiting to see if Psionic Soul/Aberrant Mind/whatever shows up in TCoE legitimizes the idea of Sorcerous Origins supplying a "themed" bonus spells known table (i.e. whether the UA version stuck or not).

Personally I think they should be added as homebrew by default
I mean that’s clearly the direction the WoTC,UA etc want to take the sorcerers down given all the recent subclasses so honestly there’s no reason not to

[GalvanicFour64]

Do you need to go in melee range? I was under the impression Storm Sorcerer was about giving you options to get out of melee range/punish those who try to force you into it.

Even then tho it only helps so so

[Zilong]

But surely it could execute its abilities and hence playstyle better
I’m not saying it’s impossible to be good with it, even something as infamous as the Purple dragon knight/banneret could be played like a boss
But they can be carried out a whole lot better ygm?

Not really, in this case, the player wanted the the sorcery points and the sorcerer spell list. That was important since, as mentioned here, the comparison that is always drawn is to the tempest cleric. The cleric stuff was not important to them. Hence, the storm sorcerer was the best fit. Plus, there is some implied lore with every class and sorcerer was just a more interesting motif for that character.

It is just odd to me that people online are constantly trying to “fix” things where there is not a problem to begin with. Funny enough, the only time I’ve seen people disappointed with their characters, in real play,was when the player intentionally tried to optimize the character then realized that the character was a one trick pony that often fell flat because they were focusing too much on mechanical gimmicks.

[GalvanicFour64]

Not really, in this case, the player wanted the the sorcery points and the sorcerer spell list. That was important since, as mentioned here, the comparison that is always drawn is to the tempest cleric. The cleric stuff was not important to them. Hence, the storm sorcerer was the best fit. Plus, there is some implied lore with every class and sorcerer was just a more interesting motif for that character.

It is just odd to me that people online are constantly trying to “fix” things where there is not a problem to begin with. Funny enough, the only time I’ve seen people disappointed with their characters, in real play,was when the player intentionally tried to optimize the character then realized that the character was a one trick pony that often fell flat because they were focusing too much on mechanical gimmicks.

That’s all fair enough but the problem here is it’s not too good at what it’s supposed to be good at
I agree with you, when it comes to the RP aspects and the lore, most of the time I’d like to go storm sorcerer but the mechanics are important too, where is 10 feet gonna get you and what’s the occasional 3 damage points gonna do, it should be buffed a bit imo.

Trust me I get there’s far more than mechanics considering DND is a ROLEPLAYING game but that doesn’t Change the fact that it could be stronger.

[GalvanicFour64]

Heart of the storm will be too strong with such a buff.
A change to tempestuous magic will be nice, but i dont think that the 10ft is too short. One of the giant soul ua subclass feats was similar. It is really nice for the lvl1 aoe spells with the close range.
I hope to play this subclass soon.

What kinda changes to tempestuous magic do you have in mind then?
Also does the 10 feet really make much different? And the 3-10 (max) damage from HotS?

[GalvanicFour64]

It's fine, sure, but it's still the weakest subclass with wild only competing with a uncooperative DM. The other subclasses offer A LOT. Storm needs to multiclass to work at all.

Unfortunately 20 feet still keeps you in melee range, and I think it just makes it a better multiclass option.

Storm sorcerers need something to give them some survivability up close, or make it so their abilities dont require them to constantly be up front.

I just figured a full 30 feet would be too much cos that’s basically double movement but here you can split movement between (bonus) actions.

[GalvanicFour64]

IMO, Storm Sorcery is fine if you're playing a multiclass Sorcadin gish, which is what I think the Origin was designed for.

For example, Tempestuous Magic from the perspective of a straight, traditional caster sorcerer is...lame. Why would I give a crap about +10 movement in exchange for my bonus action, which is needed for Flexible Casting? Spellcasting doesn't even provoke OAs, anymore. But as a gish, suddenly you're up in an opponent's face passing out smites and casting buffs, which mesh with this feature perfectly as it opens up tons of tactical options.

Another one's Heart of the Storm. If I cast witch bolt like a normal sorcerer...yay? I'm way in the back and trying to blast someone 60 feet away, big frickin' woop. But if I'm a gish, and decide to cast thunderous smite in the middle of a group of enemies, suddenly this is a pretty ballin' class feature, etc. etc..

That’s the problem tho
Something shouldn’t be designed around multiclassing. End of.

Edit: aaaaaaaand I’ve just replied to your comment twice, sorry.

[BoxANT]

our group made one change, which makes them much more enjoyable to play (albeit not that much powerful).

Gust (cantrip) can trigger Tempestuous Magic

casting Gust in combat (even with 10 ft. flying) is not usually a good use of your actions (sometimes is tho) but gives a lot of mobility when out of combat and is just a lot of fun

[GalvanicFour64]

our group made one change, which makes them much more enjoyable to play (albeit not that much powerful).

Gust (cantrip) can trigger Tempestuous Magic

casting Gust in combat (even with 10 ft. flying) is not usually a good use of your actions (sometimes is tho) but gives a lot of mobility when out of combat and is just a lot of fun

Hmmmmmmm
Adding cantrips to the prerequisite sounds like a pretty sick idea
Nice

[sophontteks]

I've heard or seen every one of the sorcerers presented as the weakest now.

Just last month we had a thread about Celestial not giving much because cleric spells don't add much. Shadow regularly get complaints because of spending Sorc points for darkness. Wild gets a ton of bad flak because of DM fiat. And dragon doesn't have enough elements of each type except fire, and that's too resisted.

A shadow sorcerer can convert level 2 spells into darkness matamagic uses at perfect effeciency (aka eat a level 2 spell for 2 metamagic, and use it to cast darkness.) The complaints there are completely unjustified. It's essentially a beefed up free spell that can be additionally cast using metamagic.

Celestial is not as strong as it appears. Many argue its the best, so the forum post makes sense...But its still far better then storm. The power of a free known spell for a sorcerer is huge on its own.

Wild was written poorly and its power depends almost entirely on the DM.

[micahaphone]

At this point I'm not helping just complaining, but IDK what mechanic I'd be excited to use for storm sorcerer. In all the other sorc origins, I can picture myself using their features frequently. A draconic sorc is always blasting, and their toughness lets them blast from any position. A wild magic sorc wants to be triggering their surges as much as possible, and using tides of chaos for advantage. Divine Soul makes me excited to think of cleric spells with metamagic. Shadow has a darkness/devil sight style trick, and the hound for some real save or suck spells.

Storm seems to encourage me to be on the front lines but then flit behind the party's frontline after I do an opening salvo. Sort of a skirmisher. And other than Thunder Wave, I'm not sure why I'd want to be up there. It's like a rogue dip sorcerer. Other than the language and weather ribbons, a lightning draconic sorc can probably do the storm borne feel

[Specter]

1st level feature: Obviously, flying 10 feet WITHOUT OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS is a damn good feature. You can move up to 40 feet in one turn and still cast a spell, which should be more than most creatures can using only their move action. Even if you're completely surrounded, you should be able to escape just fine where others would perish.
Also useful to set up spells like cones and radius-based without getting friends caught in them.

6th level: two damage resistances, plus extra guaranteed damage every time you cast a lightning or thunder spell. What else do you want?

14th level: automatic damage again, no hit no save, this time if anyone hits you in melee (not necessarily 5 feet, just melee in general).

18th level: two immunities, AT-WILL flight and optional flight to the whole party and then some.

So no, it doesn't need fixing.

[Kireban]

At this point I'm not helping just complaining, but IDK what mechanic I'd be excited to use for storm sorcerer. In all the other sorc origins, I can picture myself using their features frequently. A draconic sorc is always blasting, and their toughness lets them blast from any position. A wild magic sorc wants to be triggering their surges as much as possible, and using tides of chaos for advantage. Divine Soul makes me excited to think of cleric spells with metamagic. Shadow has a darkness/devil sight style trick, and the hound for some real save or suck spells.

Storm seems to encourage me to be on the front lines but then flit behind the party's frontline after I do an opening salvo. Sort of a skirmisher. And other than Thunder Wave, I'm not sure why I'd want to be up there. It's like a rogue dip sorcerer. Other than the language and weather ribbons, a lightning draconic sorc can probably do the storm borne feel

Storm sorcerer's play should be getting close to enemies, attacking them with close range spells and move away. It is different than all the other subclass play styles. Should be a nice change. Thunderwave and Thunder Step should work great for him.

[Habber_Dasher]

Storm sorcerer's play should be getting close to enemies, attacking them with close range spells and move away. It is different than all the other subclass play styles. Should be a nice change. Thunderwave and Thunder Step should work great for him.

That's the thing though, it doesn't really have the spells to pull off this play style. Most spells that trigger HotS usually require you to target in a way that is incompatible with HotS's area. Take lighting bolt for example. When are you going to be in a situation where there are many enemies in a straight line extending away from you and within 10 feet of you? Spells with a spherical aoe aren't much better unless your casting on top of yourself. Where as a lightning dragon sorc can use LB normally and will probably do more damage and stay father from the enemies.

Thunderwave and thunderstep are good, but TW is a first level spell, and TS's main point is mobility, not damage.

[Edea]

My ranking's probably Divine Soul > Shadow Magic > Wild Magic (Cooperative DM) > Draconic Bloodline > Storm Sorcery > Wild Magic (Uncooperative DM).

Preliminary thoughts:
Tempestuous Magic -add shocking grasp and thunderclap as bonus cantrips, otherwise it's fine.
Heart of the Storm - add call lightning as a bonus spell known, let the damage aura feature also work with cantrips that deal lightning or thunder damage.
Storm Guide - add a sorcery point function that lets you take control of the wind speed.
Wind Soul - move this up to 14th level.
Storm's Fury - now at 18th level, and no longer consumes your reaction; anyone smacking you in melee's getting juiced. Also, you pick lightning or thunder damage each time it happens (no longer lightning-fixed).

[micahaphone]

Storm sorcerer's play should be getting close to enemies, attacking them with close range spells and move away. It is different than all the other subclass play styles. Should be a nice change. Thunderwave and Thunder Step should work great for him.


That's the thing though, it doesn't really have the spells to pull off this play style. Most spells that trigger HotS usually require you to target in a way that is incompatible with HotS's area. Take lighting bolt for example. When are you going to be in a situation where there are many enemies in a straight line extending away from you and within 10 feet of you? Spells with a spherical aoe aren't much better unless your casting on top of yourself. Where as a lightning dragon sorc can use LB normally and will probably do more damage and stay father from the enemies.

Thunderwave and thunderstep are good, but TW is a first level spell, and TS's main point is mobility, not damage.

Habber_Dasher is hitting the nail on the head for me - it seems good for situational issues, like being surrounded and surprised in combat, or when an enemy slips past the front line and beelines to you, but they're all contingent on other things happening. It's nice to have "oh shoot" contingency stuff, but that shouldn't be everything you get. Draconic sorc can do the front line skirmisher role just as well if not better.

And having 1 or 2 spells that your features work well with isn't enough of a selling point. That's more limiting than the draconic sorc's elemental choice. And the level 6 feature is only adding 3-5 extra damage onto your emergency escape button spell, not your bread and butter choices. 10 feet of extra movement as a bonus action lets you set up some slightly more optimal cone or line AOE but I'm not sure that'll be frequently useful

[GalvanicFour64]

1st level feature: Obviously, flying 10 feet WITHOUT OPPORTUNITY ATTACKS is a damn good feature. You can move up to 40 feet in one turn and still cast a spell, which should be more than most creatures can using only their move action. Even if you're completely surrounded, you should be able to escape just fine where others would perish.
Also useful to set up spells like cones and radius-based without getting friends caught in them.

6th level: two damage resistances, plus extra guaranteed damage every time you cast a lightning or thunder spell. What else do you want?

14th level: automatic damage again, no hit no save, this time if anyone hits you in melee (not necessarily 5 feet, just melee in general).

18th level: two immunities, AT-WILL flight and optional flight to the whole party and then some.

So no, it doesn't need fixing.

You can 30feet before and after casting anyway by breaking up your movement, 10 more feet won’t do too much

The resistance are nice, fine, but the damage is kinda small and you gotta be really close.

The other two features are great imo but the first two are the most important and they’re not living up to what they’re tryna do imo ygm?

[Kireban]

That's the thing though, it doesn't really have the spells to pull off this play style. Most spells that trigger HotS usually require you to target in a way that is incompatible with HotS's area. Take lighting bolt for example. When are you going to be in a situation where there are many enemies in a straight line extending away from you and within 10 feet of you? Spells with a spherical aoe aren't much better unless your casting on top of yourself. Where as a lightning dragon sorc can use LB normally and will probably do more damage and stay father from the enemies.

Thunderwave and thunderstep are good, but TW is a first level spell, and TS's main point is mobility, not damage.

You can use thunderstep with Tempestuous Magic- you use the option of tempestuous magic to fly right before the casting, get into a group of enemies, and then thunderstep out of there, dealing the spell's damage and Heart of the Storm's. And can get an ally out of there if he is in danger.

Thunderwave is level 1 spell, but he gain d8s for upscales, so it is not bad. burning hands is great too before you are level 6.

With lightning bolt you should be able to catch 2 enemies within the HotS's area if you keep an eye on the tank, and Chain Lightning becomes a legit option for picking.

[GalvanicFour64]

Habber_Dasher is hitting the nail on the head for me - it seems good for situational issues, like being surrounded and surprised in combat, or when an enemy slips past the front line and beelines to you, but they're all contingent on other things happening. It's nice to have "oh shoot" contingency stuff, but that shouldn't be everything you get. Draconic sorc can do the front line skirmisher role just as well if not better.

And having 1 or 2 spells that your features work well with isn't enough of a selling point. That's more limiting than the draconic sorc's elemental choice. And the level 6 feature is only adding 3-5 extra damage onto your emergency escape button spell, not your bread and butter choices. 10 feet of extra movement as a bonus action lets you set up some slightly more optimal cone or line AOE but I'm not sure that'll be frequently useful

Yushhhhhhh.

[Kireban]

Tempestuous Magic should be looked at as an improved disengage. I think that making it 20ft will be way too strong. It is almost like giving the caster an at will misty step after each casting of leveled spell.

[Segev]

Another one's Heart of the Storm. If I cast witch bolt like a normal sorcerer...yay? I'm way in the back and trying to blast someone 60 feet away, big frickin' woop. But if I'm a gish, and decide to cast thunderous smite in the middle of a group of enemies, suddenly this is a pretty ballin' class feature, etc. etc..

If you're casting witch bolt at all, you're probably wasting the spell slot. It's pretty underwhelming for what it costs.

I agree with the analyses that say the archetype is primarily designed, single-class, to be able to maintain distance and punish those closing it. That it also helps out a sorcadin build is a nice bonus feature.

[Edea]

If you're casting witch bolt at all, you're probably wasting the spell slot. It's pretty underwhelming for what it costs.

It's the only long-range lightning element spell at 1st level for Sorc, LOL. I checked.

Lightning:
Cantrips - don't bother, they don't trigger the class features.
1st - witch bolt (dragon's breath doesn't trigger HotS).
3rd - lightning bolt
6th - chain lightning

Thunder:
Cantrips - don't bother, they don't trigger the class features.
1st - thunderwave (extremely close-range)
2nd - shatter (also extremely close-range)
3rd - thunder step (probably the best one, also close-range)

That's the list. I guess you could wish for other ones?

[Kireban]

Chromatic Orb.

edit: Storm Sphere can be used too. The difficult terrain is useful, but it takes your bonus actions to shoot lightnings so you will have to choose how to spend your actions.

[Edea]

Chromatic Orb.

edit: Storm Sphere can be used too. The difficult terrain is useful, but it takes your bonus actions to shoot lightnings so you will have to choose how to spend your actions.

Storm Sphere doesn't cause lightning damage when you cast it, same reason Dragon's Breath doesn't work.

Also Chromatic Orb eats 50 gp worth of diamonds per cast, yikes. Good on a wizard because they have a bunch of other stuff to fall back on, but I would not pick that as a sorcerer spell known.

[Segev]

Storm Sphere doesn't cause lightning damage when you cast it, same reason Dragon's Breath doesn't work.

Also Chromatic Orb eats 50 gp worth of diamonds per cast, yikes. Good on a wizard because they have a bunch of other stuff to fall back on, but I would not pick that as a sorcerer spell known.

5e material components aren't consumed unless the spell says so. Chromatic orb doesn't say so. It's more a 3e material focus.

[Nhorianscum]

It's fine, sure, but it's still the weakest subclass with wild only competing with a uncooperative DM. The other subclasses offer A LOT. Storm needs to multiclass to work at all.

Unfortunately 20 feet still keeps you in melee range, and I think it just makes it a better multiclass option.

Storm sorcerers need something to give them some survivability up close, or make it so their abilities dont require them to constantly be up front.

Eh, sorc as a base chassis needs to multi to really function by default.

That said I've played storm sorc, as a solitary class, 1-11, in CoS. (I'm just on a mission to play every "community maligned" sub in dificultish modules at this point.)

It... didn't die (the temp magic jump is so good for not dieing in tier 1).

Then it made tier 2 where... tier 2 sorc is tier 2 sorc and really can just boost into things faces, not because tank, but because they're dead now.

Overall, it was just "sorc in a shellnut". (Would a dip have been better with cleric 2 or hexblade 1? Yes, it's a sorc.)

[Edea]

5e material components aren't consumed unless the spell says so. Chromatic orb doesn't say so. It's more a 3e material focus.

Ahh. I wish they'd say "F" instead of "M", the text entry made it look like it eats the diamond every time you cast it (as you can tell I have a 3e mindset).

[Segev]

Ahh. I wish they'd say "F" instead of "M", the text entry made it look like it eats the diamond every time you cast it (as you can tell I have a 3e mindset).

Yeah. There is no "focus" in 5e as a component. "Foci" in 5e are special items that can replace any non-pricey material component. But in 5e, unless it says the M is expended, it isn't. So the 50 gp gem here is what you and I (with our 3.PF mindsets) think of as a "focus," even though in 5e it is termed "M."

[hitchhike79]

Doesnt a start in Tempest Cleric fix most of the issues with this class?
Take it to lvl 2 for max damage channel divinity when needed, then the rest sorc.

Now your a beefy sorc who can go in and out of front line duties and in a pinch actually heal.

I mean if i was making a Storm Sorc thats what i would do.

[Nhorianscum]

Doesnt a start in Tempest Cleric fix most of the issues with this class?
Take it to lvl 2 for max damage channel divinity when needed, then the rest sorc.

Now your a beefy sorc who can go in and out of front line duties and in a pinch actually heal.

I mean if i was making a Storm Sorc thats what i would do.

Starting with a con save is pretty good.

I'd just go Storm7-Tempest2-StormX for a tier 2 or 3 game or straight Tempest for a tier 1 game.

Alternately going storm1-tempest1-storm7-tempest1-stormX is great.

(The maximize channel on shatter is just less power than empower+upcast on lightning bolt with MA. We can really easily push back 1 level of sorc but 2 is rough before we get into that sorc 7 juice.)

[GalvanicFour64]

You can use thunderstep with Tempestuous Magic- you use the option of tempestuous magic to fly right before the casting, get into a group of enemies, and then thunderstep out of there, dealing the spell's damage and Heart of the Storm's. And can get an ally out of there if he is in danger.

Thunderwave is level 1 spell, but he gain d8s for upscales, so it is not bad. burning hands is great too before you are level 6.

With lightning bolt you should be able to catch 2 enemies within the HotS's area if you keep an eye on the tank, and Chain Lightning becomes a legit option for picking.

If you’re close enough for that tho you can just run in there instead

[GalvanicFour64]

Starting with a con save is pretty good.

I'd just go Storm7-Tempest2-StormX for a tier 2 or 3 game or straight Tempest for a tier 1 game.

Alternately going storm1-tempest1-storm7-tempest1-stormX is great.

(The maximize channel on shatter is just less power than empower+upcast on lightning bolt with MA. We can really easily push back 1 level of sorc but 2 is rough before we get into that sorc 7 juice.)

Sure but a class shouldn’t be made for multiclassing only, just proves my point

[GalvanicFour64]

Tempestuous Magic should be looked at as an improved disengage. I think that making it 20ft will be way too strong. It is almost like giving the caster an at will misty step after each casting of leveled spell.

While that may be true, how effective is the 10 feet really?

[GalvanicFour64]

If you're casting witch bolt at all, you're probably wasting the spell slot. It's pretty underwhelming for what it costs.

I agree with the analyses that say the archetype is primarily designed, single-class, to be able to maintain distance and punish those closing it. That it also helps out a sorcadin build is a nice bonus feature.

Yes but it could do it waaayyy better
Question is how do we get there

[GalvanicFour64]

Eh, sorc as a base chassis needs to multi to really function by default.

That said I've played storm sorc, as a solitary class, 1-11, in CoS. (I'm just on a mission to play every "community maligned" sub in dificultish modules at this point.)

It... didn't die (the temp magic jump is so good for not dieing in tier 1).

Then it made tier 2 where... tier 2 sorc is tier 2 sorc and really can just boost into things faces, not because tank, but because they're dead now.

Overall, it was just "sorc in a shellnut". (Would a dip have been better with cleric 2 or hexblade 1? Yes, it's a sorc.)

So you’re saying the half damage and 10 feet was actually of use?

[Segev]

Yes but it could do it waaayyy better
Question is how do we get there

I'm not going to argue yea or nay on this, but I will point out that "it could do it waaayyy better" could be said of literally anything. The question is: would doing it way better make it too good at it? Put another way, is it already right where it should be, or SHOULD it be made better? If so, why should it be made better?

What specific problems are to be addressed, and why are they problems? Where does it fall short, and why is that falling too short of where it should be?

We shouldn't fix something until we know not only what is broken, but why.

[Satori01]

Storm Sorcerer is not weak. Tempestuous Magic and Heart of the Storm, means that even if enemies get close, the SS can cast a spell and disengage, and do a small amount of damage to a targets you chose within 10'.

The verbiage "targets you chose within 10'" is typically reserved for cleric spells.
Add in the Careful spell Metamagic and this means a SS can Thunderwave, deal Heart of the Storm damage at the start of their casting, then do Thunderwave, and then fly 10'.

All without hurting their colleagues.

A 10' Flying Disengage in the right terrain is very useful, and casting any 1st lvl spell can trigger it.
This will include staves.

Heart of the Storm triggers:
whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level or higher that deals lightning or thunder damage, stormy magic erupts from you.

So even if you fall prey to a Counterspell you at least get the Heart of the Storm Damage.

In addition you can still Twin Polymorph etc that all sorcerers can do.

In play, being able to talk to any Elemental is pretty useful, especially in an Eberron game.

[micahaphone]

Storm Sorcerer is not weak. Tempestuous Magic and Heart of the Storm, means that even if enemies get close, the SS can cast a spell and disengage, and do a small amount of damage to a targets you chose within 10'.

The verbiage "targets you chose within 10'" is typically reserved for cleric spells.
Add in the Careful spell Metamagic and this means a SS can Thunderwave, deal Heart of the Storm damage at the start of their casting, then do Thunderwave, and then fly 10'.

All without hurting their colleagues.

A 10' Flying Disengage in the right terrain is very useful, and casting any 1st lvl spell can trigger it.
This will include staves.

Heart of the Storm triggers:
whenever you start casting a spell of 1st level or higher that deals lightning or thunder damage, stormy magic erupts from you.

So even if you fall prey to a Counterspell you at least get the Heart of the Storm Damage.

In addition you can still Twin Polymorph etc that all sorcerers can do.

In play, being able to talk to any Elemental is pretty useful, especially in an Eberron game.

Careful spell metamagic doesn't fully protect your allies they still take half damage

If I wanted a sorcerer who can do okay on the frontline but also run away when needed, a draconic sorc will give AC and hp which is more generally useful, and quicken metamgic would let me cast a spell then disengage. And the draconic sorcerer's bonus damage doesn't require me to be within 10 feet of the target.

Storm Sorc getting "thunder or lightning" doesn't matter, a draconic sorc who chooses lightning is only missing out on Thunderwave, Shatter, and Thunder Step.

Languages are available through several other methods, like backgrounds.

---------------------
Like I said earlier, there are moments when a storm sorc will shine. But it's all too reactive. In play, I'd need to put effort into making use of these features, unless things go wrong. Being a subclass-less sorcerer who has extra GTFO options isn't that appealing. This concept is super cool, but there's not much mechanically to combo with it.


What if you could use your wind gusts to push enemies around? Or if your thunder/lightning magic had extra riders on it, like "when you use a spell slot to deal thunder damage, enemies might get knocked prone. When you use a spell slot to deal lightning damage, enemies have disadvantage on attack rolls for a round, from fried nerves". Now it's different from the pure blaster of a lightning dragon sorc, the features are useful for disengaging, but are still useful even if I'm not retreating from an enemy.

[GalvanicFour64]

I'm not going to argue yea or nay on this, but I will point out that "it could do it waaayyy better" could be said of literally anything. The question is: would doing it way better make it too good at it? Put another way, is it already right where it should be, or SHOULD it be made better? If so, why should it be made better?

What specific problems are to be addressed, and why are they problems? Where does it fall short, and why is that falling too short of where it should be?

We shouldn't fix something until we know not only what is broken, but why.

I agree so I’ll repeat what I’ve told others

To me the 10 feet isn’t enough, you can break up your movement when casting a spell so it’s basically turning 30-40feet (no opportunity attacks for ten of those feet sure but again it’s only 10).
And I feel the HoTS damage is a bit low, ie not too effective as a repellent or as an incentive to get close range

[Edea]

I'm not going to argue yea or nay on this, but I will point out that "it could do it waaayyy better" could be said of literally anything. The question is: would doing it way better make it too good at it? Put another way, is it already right where it should be, or SHOULD it be made better? If so, why should it be made better?

What specific problems are to be addressed, and why are they problems? Where does it fall short, and why is that falling too short of where it should be?

We shouldn't fix something until we know not only what is broken, but why.

I think the primary problem getting people worked up is "why is this subclass melee-focused, on a chassis that's geared to approach combat encounters at range, without giving that chassis the tools that it needs to survive in melee through the subclass alone?"

I'm seeing repeated comparisons to the Tempest Cleric, which not only ensures thunderwave is always prepped and gives you a CD for maximizing lightning damage, but also dumps all armor proficiencies, simple/martial weapon proficiencies, and shield proficiency on you, meaning you survive in the range where Storm Sorcery operates. There's a tremendous incentive to multi compared to the other subclasses (which can be seen as 'bad').

People in this camp probably want the subclass to be not only just effective for a single-classed sorcerer, but comparably effective to the other sorcerer subclasses presented in XGtE for a single-classed sorcerer.

While I also agree Storm Sorcery's certainly not bad, and perfectly playable even for a single-classed sorcerer...it ain't Divine Soul or Shadow Magic on a single-classed sorcerer, not even close.

[GalvanicFour64]

I think the primary problem getting people worked up is "why is this subclass melee-focused, on a chassis that's geared to approach combat encounters at range, without giving that chassis the tools that it needs to survive in melee through the subclass alone?"

I'm seeing repeated comparisons to the Tempest Cleric, which not only ensures thunderwave is always prepped and gives you a CD for maximizing lightning damage, but also dumps all armor proficiencies, simple/martial weapon proficiencies, and shield proficiency on you, meaning you survive in the range where Storm Sorcery operates. There's a tremendous incentive to multi compared to the other subclasses (which can be seen as 'bad').

People in this camp probably want the subclass to be not only just effective for a single-classed sorcerer, but comparably effective to the other sorcerer subclasses presented in XGtE for a single-classed sorcerer.

While I also agree Storm Sorcery's certainly not bad, and perfectly playable even for a single-classed sorcerer...it ain't Divine Soul or Shadow Magic on a single-classed sorcerer, not even close.

Thank you. Edea.
Yes.
As I told someone else, I agree that it’s still perfectly playable but there should be more to it than that.
Do you think my changes help in that regard?

[Jerrykhor]

Storm sorcerer's play should be getting close to enemies, attacking them with close range spells and move away. It is different than all the other subclass play styles. Should be a nice change. Thunderwave and Thunder Step should work great for him.

I dont think people who play Storm Sorcerer are looking for this type of playstyle. Saying they are fine is like saying Beast Master ranger is fine if you accept that your pet is an expandable meatbag that you have to (spend 8 stupid hours) replacing every day.

Storm Sorcerer fails hard because it cannot fulfill the fantasy of being a Wind/Lightning mage or a Storm Mage. Its certainly not fine. If you cannot summon lightning bolts from the sky, where is your goddamn storm? If you cannot change the weather to heavy rain or thunderstorm, where is your STORM? Storm Guide is lame not just because it cannot generate rain or wind on its own, but it also has redundant mechanics. Its mostly going to be used out of combat, so why the Bonus Action requirement? The more i read it, its better off being a 'DM may I' ability like the Bestow Curse spell.

Your lightning and thunder spells are no better than any other Sorcerer, so why bother? Lightning bolts weakness is the narrow shape, if enemies are not lined up nicely, Fireball is preferred. They have no incentive to use LB over FB, unless the enemies happen to be near them, which they can fart out some thunder to hurt them a little. Lame. Also, does not work on cantrips. Double lame.

Maybe they get better at higher levels? Nah. Storm's Fury is just a slightly better Wrath of the Storm, which Tempest Clerics get at level 1. What a joke. Also, using this means you can't use Shield, which means you will get hit more. Meanwhile Draconic Sorcerer at that level can fly around pretending to be Storm from X-Men.

[GalvanicFour64]

I dont think people who play Storm Sorcerer are looking for this type of playstyle. Saying they are fine is like saying Beast Master ranger is fine if you accept that your pet is an expandable meatbag that you have to (spend 8 stupid hours) replacing every day.

Storm Sorcerer fails hard because it cannot fulfill the fantasy of being a Wind/Lightning mage or a Storm Mage. Its certainly not fine. If you cannot summon lightning bolts from the sky, where is your goddamn storm? If you cannot change the weather to heavy rain or thunderstorm, where is your STORM? Storm Guide is lame not just because it cannot generate rain or wind on its own, but it also has redundant mechanics. Its mostly going to be used out of combat, so why the Bonus Action requirement? The more i read it, its better off being a 'DM may I' ability like the Bestow Curse spell.

Your lightning and thunder spells are no better than any other Sorcerer, so why bother? Lightning bolts weakness is the narrow shape, if enemies are not lined up nicely, Fireball is preferred. They have no incentive to use LB over FB, unless the enemies happen to be near them, which they can fart out some thunder to hurt them a little. Lame. Also, does not work on cantrips. Double lame.

Maybe they get better at higher levels? Nah. Storm's Fury is just a slightly better Wrath of the Storm, which Tempest Clerics get at level 1. What a joke. Also, using this means you can't use Shield, which means you will get hit more. Meanwhile Draconic Sorcerer at that level can fly around pretending to be Storm from X-Men.

Man....true.
Any changes you have in mind?
Do you think mine are enough?

[Specter]

You can 30feet before and after casting anyway by breaking up your movement, 10 more feet won’t do too much

The resistance are nice, fine, but the damage is kinda small and you gotta be really close.

The other two features are great imo but the first two are the most important and they’re not living up to what they’re tryna do imo ygm?

It's not just about moving, it's a) moving more than the opponent, and b) doing that without op. attacks.

Let's say a guard approaches you and attacks you. Normally, you'd just stay close and hope whatever spell you cast can down him, because you don't want him to have an opportunity attack from you fleeing. But with your level-1 feature, you can move 10 feet away from him freely, then cast a spell. and then use the rest of your movement. It's effectively saving you from wasting your turn using Disengage.

[GalvanicFour64]

It's not just about moving, it's a) moving more than the opponent, and b) doing that without op. attacks.

Let's say a guard approaches you and attacks you. Normally, you'd just stay close and hope whatever spell you cast can down him, because you don't want him to have an opportunity attack from you fleeing. But with your level-1 feature, you can move 10 feet away from him freely, then cast a spell. and then use the rest of your movement. It's effectively saving you from wasting your turn using Disengage.

But is the 10 feet enough for it to work and not trigger an AoO?
Also what are your thoughts on HoTS?

[sophontteks]

It's weird that it hasnt come up, but maybe making the level 6 ability actually do something would help fix the subclass. We all stuck about the use of the other abilities, and really, they are fine. But the storm sorcerer effectively doesnt even get a level 6 ability.

Because the level 6 ability is garbage, the storm sorcerer is basically just a multiclass option.

[Satori01]

Careful spell metamagic doesn't fully protect your allies they still take half damage

If I wanted a sorcerer who can do okay on the frontline but also run away when needed, a draconic sorc will give AC and hp which is more generally useful, and quicken metamgic would let me cast a spell then disengage. And the draconic sorcerer's bonus damage doesn't require me to be within 10 feet of the target.

Storm Sorc getting "thunder or lightning" doesn't matter, a draconic sorc who chooses lightning is only missing out on Thunderwave, Shatter, and Thunder Step.

Languages are available through several other methods, like backgrounds.

---------------------
Like I said earlier, there are moments when a storm sorc will shine. But it's all too reactive. In play, I'd need to put effort into making use of these features, unless things go wrong. Being a subclass-less sorcerer who has extra GTFO options isn't that appealing. This concept is super cool, but there's not much mechanically to combo with it.


What if you could use your wind gusts to push enemies around? Or if your thunder/lightning magic had extra riders on it, like "when you use a spell slot to deal thunder damage, enemies might get knocked prone. When you use a spell slot to deal lightning damage, enemies have disadvantage on attack rolls for a round, from fried nerves". Now it's different from the pure blaster of a lightning dragon sorc, the features are useful for disengaging, but are still useful even if I'm not retreating from an enemy.

Every SS I have seen in play uses Gust of Wind. The close range class features are backup for when things get close. Sorcerers do not lack for control spells.
One does not need to be a frontliner.

In 5e there are many different ways to achieve the same end.
A lizardperson PC gets the same AC as a Dragon Sorcerer, a Torttle gets even better AC. Sure one can learn Primodial from a Background, just as one can learn draconic, but free is free, and negotiating with enemy Elemental summons is a nice option to have.

A 10' Fly as a bonus action is pretty useful on a sailing ship or airship...you can land on a mast spar etc. It is a great subclass for a nautical theme campaign, just as a DragonSorc is a great subclass for a Tyranny of Dragons or Dragonlance campaign.

[GalvanicFour64]

It's weird that it hasnt come up, but maybe making the level 6 ability actually do something would help fix the subclass. We all stuck about the use of the other abilities, and really, they are fine. But the storm sorcerer effectively doesnt even get a level 6 ability.

Because the level 6 ability is garbage, the storm sorcerer is basically just a multiclass option.

I gave a suggestion in the beginning
Instead of half level damage, make it full, you think that’ll work?

[Segev]

Another thing to consider about the level one feature: it’s flight. Jumping isn’t all powerful, but jumping then adding ten feet to it could be nice. I don’t know that it’s nice enough to consider learning the Jump spell to go with it, but Jump would trigger the flight. Though I suppose it doesn’t help as much since the flight triggers before the cast and thus you couldn’t jump under the spell and then fly. Maybe you can still jump from the wind that’s carrying you?

Niche, but at least entirely the character’s choice to activate/use.

Maybe a metamagic like elemental substitution would be a good idea for sorcerers in general. It would address some of the concerns about storm sorcerer and dragon sorcerer. Though one of the balance points in 3e was that that metamagic was free; all you needed was the feat. I don’t think there’s precedent in 5e for SP-less metamagic, and making them pay an SP per elemental spell just to get features to proc is a bit obnoxious.

Maybe just letting them learn spell variants that are of different elements than normal? Electrifying hands rather than burning hands?

[micahaphone]

Every SS I have seen in play uses Gust of Wind. The close range class features are backup for when things get close. Sorcerers do not lack for control spells.
One does not need to be a frontliner.

In 5e there are many different ways to achieve the same end.
A lizardperson PC gets the same AC as a Dragon Sorcerer, a Torttle gets even better AC. Sure one can learn Primodial from a Background, just as one can learn draconic, but free is free, and negotiating with enemy Elemental summons is a nice option to have.

A 10' Fly as a bonus action is pretty useful on a sailing ship or airship...you can land on a mast spar etc. It is a great subclass for a nautical theme campaign, just as a DragonSorc is a great subclass for a Tyranny of Dragons or Dragonlance campaign.

I agree this subclass is great for a nautical campaign, but most subclasses are useful no matter the setting. Divine Soul is useful even if the setting isn't focusing on celestials vs fiends.

So what should a storm sorc do when they're safe and not under threat? Stand close-ish to the front line to try and get their bonus damage (which is still less than a dragon sorc's bonus damage)? Just do bog standard sorcerer things? Why should I choose this subclass if in many situations it'll be as if I had no subclass?


Edit: I forgot, draconic bloodline's bonus damage also applies to cantrips, not just leveled spells. So a storm sorc can potentially deal more damage once you're past level 11 (when cha mod is outpaced by level/2), and/or if you're close to multiple opponents. I'd still prefer dragon's any range damage boost



Another thing to consider about the level one feature: it’s flight. Jumping isn’t all powerful, but jumping then adding ten feet to it could be nice. I don’t know that it’s nice enough to consider learning the Jump spell to go with it, but Jump would trigger the flight. Though I suppose it doesn’t help as much since the flight triggers before the cast and thus you couldn’t jump under the spell and then fly. Maybe you can still jump from the wind that’s carrying you?

The mini flight is before or after you cast a spell, so you could jump then extra boost.

[Dark.Revenant]

Storm Sorcerer is powerful enough from levels 1 to 5, and again from levels 18 to 20. It's really lopsided; if you buffed the 6th level and 14th level features, I think it's too good at level 18-20. It's already a top-tier option if you're rolling up a 20th level character for some reason. Similarly, buffing 6 and 14 make it a more appealing multiclass option, but it's already "good enough" to not outright kneecap someone who takes it for the flavor rather than the mechanics.

In short, I don't think a quick buff to Storm Sorcery is warranted. If you must change it, what it needs is a complete rewrite to fit the type of abilities you want a storm-themed sorcerer to have.

[Segev]

The mini flight is before or after you cast a spell, so you could jump then extra boost.Ah! Works out great, then! Move and cast jump, and jump and fly at once for +10 ft. of flight to your jumping distance.


Storm Sorcerer is powerful enough from levels 1 to 5, and again from levels 18 to 20. It's really lopsided; if you buffed the 6th level and 14th level features, I think it's too good at level 18-20. It's already a top-tier option if you're rolling up a 20th level character for some reason. Similarly, buffing 6 and 14 make it a more appealing multiclass option, but it's already "good enough" to not outright kneecap someone who takes it for the flavor rather than the mechanics.

In short, I don't think a quick buff to Storm Sorcery is warranted. If you must change it, what it needs is a complete rewrite to fit the type of abilities you want a storm-themed sorcerer to have.

What if we moved the level 14 retaliatory ability down to level 6, and moved the personal flight from 18 down to 14, leaving 18 with the ability to share the flight and the energy-type immunities?

[Nhorianscum]

So you’re saying the half damage and 10 feet was actually of use?

Yes. Constantly.

Both abilities are free, trigger off of things we already do, and are suuuper relevant/powerful.

--------

What folks who are complaining about the level6 are forgetting is that these are "free nonspell super rituals" on a tier 2 sorc. Combat is covered. Base sorc with no origin, no multi, and no boosting feats is still inordanantly strong here.

[Specter]

But is the 10 feet enough for it to work and not trigger an AoO?
Also what are your thoughts on HoTS?

You can choose to use it before or after you cast, so you can either move 10 feet > cast or cast > move 10 feet. So yes, you should be free from opportunity attacks. Notice you can also use it to get in range before you cast a spell (pretty common) or to maneuver better.

Heart of the Storm is good. Even at level 6, it's like "extra 1d6 of damage to all enemies around you". By level 12, it's like an extra d12, for free, and not even considering the two resistances.

[Nagog]

I would fix it by granting light armor proficiency and a +1 health every level up (like Giant Soul and Draconic do). At that point, you still aren't tanky enough to be a tank, but you're not wet tissue paper either, so you can afford to use a SCAGtrip or two (which don't allow you to activate your Tempestuous Magic as they're not leveled spells).

That or drop the armor, grant the health, and allow Tempestuous Magic to be activated by a Canrip but limit it's uses to something like half your level or double your proficiency bonus. Still viable as a regular use ability, but still limited so you can't spam it day in and day out to kite your enemies.

[Nhorianscum]

I would fix it by granting light armor proficiency and a +1 health every level up (like Giant Soul and Draconic do). At that point, you still aren't tanky enough to be a tank, but you're not wet tissue paper either, so you can afford to use a SCAGtrip or two (which don't allow you to activate your Tempestuous Magic as they're not leveled spells).

That or drop the armor, grant the health, and allow Tempestuous Magic to be activated by a Canrip but limit it's uses to something like half your level or double your proficiency bonus. Still viable as a regular use ability, but still limited so you can't spam it day in and day out to kite your enemies.

So past tier 1 sorc does have access to quicken+dodge+shield and the gas to use it "freely"

It's deceptively tanky, more so with a twinned haste, greater invis, or just a polymorph and warcaster on a class with innate con prof.

There are also quite a few nifty magic items that patch up defenses.

[GalvanicFour64]

You can choose to use it before or after you cast, so you can either move 10 feet > cast or cast > move 10 feet. So yes, you should be free from opportunity attacks. Notice you can also use it to get in range before you cast a spell (pretty common) or to maneuver better.

Heart of the Storm is good. Even at level 6, it's like "extra 1d6 of damage to all enemies around you". By level 12, it's like an extra d12, for free, and not even considering the two resistances.

I see your points...and they’re good ones...

So the no AoO stretches to the whole 40feet then?

[GalvanicFour64]

Yes. Constantly.

Both abilities are free, trigger off of things we already do, and are suuuper relevant/powerful.

--------

What folks who are complaining about the level6 are forgetting is that these are "free nonspell super rituals" on a tier 2 sorc. Combat is covered. Base sorc with no origin, no multi, and no boosting feats is still inordanantly strong here.

I see.........

[GalvanicFour64]

The recent replies on the the thread are really changing my mind so I thank all of you for that.

Just wanted to let yall know💙💙💙

[Dark.Revenant]

So past tier 1 sorc does have access to quicken+dodge+shield and the gas to use it "freely"

It's deceptively tanky, more so with a twinned haste, greater invis, or just a polymorph and warcaster on a class with innate con prof.

There are also quite a few nifty magic items that patch up defenses.

Dodge+Shield is indeed a powerful defensive measure, but a tier 2 sorcerer is still going to spend some fairly hefty resources if he's quickening stuff all the time. Those 2 sorcery points do add up. You'll also need Mage Armor for most races (unless your DM goes out of his/her way to give you something like Bracers of Defense or Elven Chain), taking up another spell known.

Unrelated, but Polymorph (on self) removes the benefit of War Caster.

Magic item wishlists are a whole discussion all their own, but in my experience, it's unusual to find the items I want prior to tier 3.

[Nhorianscum]

Dodge+Shield is indeed a powerful defensive measure, but a tier 2 sorcerer is still going to spend some fairly hefty resources if he's quickening stuff all the time. Those 2 sorcery points do add up. You'll also need Mage Armor for most races (unless your DM goes out of his/her way to give you something like Bracers of Defense or Elven Chain), taking up another spell known.

Unrelated, but Polymorph (on self) removes the benefit of War Caster.

Magic item wishlists are a whole discussion all their own, but in my experience, it's unusual to find the items I want prior to tier 3.

Polyself does indeed do that. (warcaster was used as MA didn't exist during my time with storm sorc.)

I guess my view on Quicken+shield is that it consumes 3 points out of a 32 point tank for a cl7 MA sorc. It's enough to shave off one of our nova's if overused but it's definitely cheap at the cost of a 2nd level slot.

I was thinking more staff of defense or the like as a direct boost but any stave or external source of casting will do. (I've never actually taken mage armor on sorc before picking up a relevant stave or a pile of scrolls, that slot is so precious.)

In module or AL play we can almost always snag a good item in tier 1. Homebrew games vary wildly so I can't offer any comparison.

[Satori01]

Why should I choose this subclass if in many situations it'll be as if I had no subclass?


The answer is because it fits your character.
If your character is based off "Being the Most powerful, always",
then sure the utility of being a Divine Soul is hard to beat.

If you want to play a member of a nomadic clan of sailors..SS is the better thematic fit.

A 20th level Storm Sorcerer Upcasting Shocking Grasp as a 1st level spell while applying the Quickened Metamagic to it, can then Twin a second Shocking Grasp, as a 0 level Cantrip.

On an Eladrin Storm Sorcerer with Elven Accuracy against AC 18, DPR on the three Shocking Grasps is 40 points per round. DPR jumps to 60 when you have Advantage on the attacks..like when the target AC of 18 represents plate mail armor.

So a 20th level SS surrounded by 3 Knights is expending 3 Sorcery points, and one 1st level spell slot to produce 60 DPR on the Shocking Grasps spells, alone.

Upcasting, allows Heart of the Storm to activate which is another 10 points of damage, per target.

This is decent RoI for minimal resource investment.

[Segev]

A 20th level Storm Sorcerer Upcasting Shocking Grasp as a 1st level spell while applying the Quickened Metamagic to it, can then Twin a second Shocking Grasp, as a 0 level Cantrip.

I don't think you can upcast cantrips.

[Satori01]

Going off just the text in the PHB, you can.
In Jeremy Crawford's campaign you can not.
So Each Table will have to decide.

Upcasting a Cantrip has one benefit:
the Cantrip, which is a 0 level spell normally, is now a spell of whatever slot you used.

Normally, this is a terrible waste of a spell slot, but very rarely...(Necromancer Wizards or Storm Sorcerers for example), it triggers an interaction with Subclass abilities that may be useful.

CASTING A SPELL AT A HIGHER LEVEL
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is ofa higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
CANTRIPS
A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advance. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster's mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. A cantrip's spell level is 0.

There is no verbiage in the PHB that indicates that Cantrips were to be excluded from the Casting a Spell at Higher Level rules.
Indeed by assigning Cantrips a spell level of 0, it always struck me that design intent was precisely that one could, by intent, upcast Cantrips.

It breaks nothing.

[Edea]

The problematic part of that rule language is the use of 'can be' with qualities it probably shouldn't be addressing.

The first line, and some subsequent text, under Cantrips (PHB p.201 for others' reference) should read, IMO: "A cantrip is a [rudimentary] spell that you are able to cast at-will. Cantrips do not use a spell slot. You also do not prepare your cantrips; once chosen, a cantrip becomes a spell known for you.[...]When another effect calls for a spell's level, treat a cantrip as if its spell level were 0, unless that effect explicitly mentions otherwise."

But it says 'can be cast[...]without using a slot or being prepared in advance,' implying that those parameters are optional. Not only the slot part, but also the prepared part; apparently you can prepare cantrips? But then we go to the wizard's spellbook feature, and it explicitly calls out only being able to have spells of 1st level or higher in it. The preparation example texts for both the cleric and druid also clearly omit using cantrips, calling out only being able to prepare 1st and 2nd level spells at Cleric 3 (or Druid 3).

Seeing that makes me disinclined to allow the upcasting of cantrips, even though the RAW language is murky on the issue.

[Satori01]

Preparation is a non sequitur.

A character knows their Cantrips. Cantrips are 0 level spells that can be cast at will.

Any spell with a spell level assigned is now subject to the Casting a Spell at Higher level rule.

Shocking Grasp cast in a 1st level spell slot, is no longer a Cantrip, it is a 1st level Shocking Grasp spell.

In practice the only time upcasting a Cantrip would be useful is when you need a Light effect of a certain level, or Necromancer Wizards or Storm Sorcerers.

Necros and SS both suffer from a dearth of 1st level spells that inflict Necrotic or Lightning damage, but both classes have access to excellent Cantrips that do damage of those types.

To put it another way, if the SS had a 1st Level Lightning spell other than Witchbolt, the need to upcast Shocking Grasp wouldn't even exist.

Since, unfortunately, Witchbolt is the only option, then allowing the ACTUAL text to play as written, just allows the SS or Necromancer to not SUCK.

Sorcerers are all about breaking the expectation of how spells work. Why should a Storm Sorcerer being effective with Shocking Grasp, be such a shocking proposition?

[micahaphone]

Sorcs do have Chromatic Orb as a 1st level lightning spell,but it's at disadvantage in melee. I never thought of upcasting cantrips, but yeah, I guess that makes sense.

[Segev]

The same text quoted on cantrips clearly states that a cantrip does not take a spell slot. Noting in the text indicates that this is optional, or that you can choose to expend a spell slot on it.

I’d probably allow it, for most of the reasons given, but it does not seem to follow either the RAI or the RAW, to me.

[Satori01]

The same text quoted on cantrips clearly states that a cantrip does not take a spell slot. Noting in the text indicates that this is optional, or that you can choose to expend a spell slot on it.

I’d probably allow it, for most of the reasons given, but it does not seem to follow either the RAI or the RAW, to me.

A Cantrip is a 0 level spell, by definition. Yet as 0 level spell it meets all the criteria to be cast at a higher level.

As a Cantrip is defined by being a zero level spell that uses no slot, upcasting a Cantrip, means it is no longer a cantrip, but a spell of the level of the slot used.
The Cantrip, like any spell, expands to fill the slot.

A caterpillar changes into a butterfly. A caterpillar and butterfly despite being distinct and different are also the same species.

The design is so elegant, you actually can't abuse it.

I always thought the elegance was intentional, but it might merely be accidental, which doesn't Really matter....as an elegant system is beautiful inherently.

[Amechra]

As someone who played a Storm Sorcerer for roughly half a year of weekly games, I think I only ever used Tempestuous Magic (and the ability to speak Primordial).

I mean, I had the additional issue that I stuck to just lightning damage. I can't really suggest it - the only lightning cantrip that's worth anything is Shocking Grasp, and a) my DM wasn't buying the "upcast a cantrip" argument and b) it has a very short range.

I think that giving them Shocking Grasp-but-with-Distant-Spell-included-for-free at 1st level would actually really help. Having a 15ft mini-lightning-bolt that has Advantage against enemies in armor and denies people their Reaction if you hit is actually some pretty decent control.

Honestly, I wish they had just gone with something more flavorful than Storm Guide. Like, I want the weather around me to automatically be stormier, with no additional effort on my part. I want the ability to basically ignore "stormy" magic - if someone hits me with a Gust of Wind or a Sleet Storm, my clothes shouldn't even be ruffled.

But alas, that's not how D&D does things.

[Nagog]

So past tier 1 sorc does have access to quicken+dodge+shield and the gas to use it "freely"

It's deceptively tanky, more so with a twinned haste, greater invis, or just a polymorph and warcaster on a class with innate con prof.

There are also quite a few nifty magic items that patch up defenses.

While I understand what you mean, I also know for a fact that that isn't a sustainable playstyle. That's using 2 sorcery points and a 1st level spell slot every round (not including the spell slot of the quickened spell), and for a class that already has issues with not having enough core resources, that's a huge cost. Further, disadvantage to hit AC 13 is nowhere near as effective as disadvantage on AC of 15+, and having the HP buff to boot means you won't need to invest so many resources into not getting hit, you can just go and do. As a Sorcerer built to be within ~10ft of enemies, constantly draining your resources to make use of your paltry subclass features is a huge flaw in the subclass design.



Magic item wishlists are a whole discussion all their own, but in my experience, it's unusual to find the items I want prior to tier 3.

Magic Items by the request of the player is not often something a DM will just hand out. There are some seriously cheese builds out there that make use of specific magic items, handing out whatever a player wants for whatever reason they want it is something many DMs won't do even for new players.


Going off just the text in the PHB, you can.
In Jeremy Crawford's campaign you can not.
So Each Table will have to decide.

Upcasting a Cantrip has one benefit:
the Cantrip, which is a 0 level spell normally, is now a spell of whatever slot you used.

Normally, this is a terrible waste of a spell slot, but very rarely...(Necromancer Wizards or Storm Sorcerers for example), it triggers an interaction with Subclass abilities that may be useful.

CASTING A SPELL AT A HIGHER LEVEL
When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is ofa higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level. Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.
Some spells, such as magic missile and cure wounds, have more powerful effects when cast at a higher level, as detailed in a spell's description.
CANTRIPS
A cantrip is a spell that can be cast at will, without using a spell slot and without being prepared in advance. Repeated practice has fixed the spell in the caster's mind and infused the caster with the magic needed to produce the effect over and over. A cantrip's spell level is 0.

There is no verbiage in the PHB that indicates that Cantrips were to be excluded from the Casting a Spell at Higher Level rules.
Indeed by assigning Cantrips a spell level of 0, it always struck me that design intent was precisely that one could, by intent, upcast Cantrips.

It breaks nothing.

Cantrips are not spells though. In every situation that they're both included, it includes the phrase "When you cast a spell or a cantrip", showing that they are two different things.
Also, if it's not viable at Jeremy Crawford's table, and there isn't something saying you can, what makes you think that you can do that?

[Segev]

Cantrips are not spells though. In every situation that they're both included, it includes the phrase "When you cast a spell or a cantrip", showing that they are two different things.
Also, if it's not viable at Jeremy Crawford's table, and there isn't something saying you can, what makes you think that you can do that?

While that's true, it's also true that the first phrase under the section defining "Cantrips" is "A Cantrip is a spell."

One could say "If you see a corvid or a crow," and still be correct, even though a crow is a corvid.

On the other hand, Cantrips also expressly say they do not take a spell slot. Whenever any other rules specify that you can cast a spell without expending a spell slot, they do not permit you to choose to upcast it by spending a spell slot of higher than minimum level.

[ahyangyi]

They are definitely not fine. How do they NOT have call lightning?

But... flavor-wise, aren't the storm sorcerers themselves the source of lightnings? Call lightning is something very different, and divine in nature.

[GalvanicFour64]

But... flavor-wise, aren't the storm sorcerers themselves the source of lightnings? Call lightning is something very different, and divine in nature.

Is it tho? To me it falls right under their jurisdiction as callers of the storm.

[micahaphone]

At level 6, they can control the weather and call a storm, so long as they don't call lightning. Only rain and wind, no thunder and lightning!

[Segev]

What if there were just a couple more lightning and thunder spells at first level on the Sorcerer list?

Zap
1st level evocation
Casting time: 1 action
Components: V, S
Range: 30 feet
Duration: Instantaneous
You point your finger at a target and an arc of electricity leaps out to it, dealing 1d6 lightning damage.
At higher levels. When cast from a 2nd level or higher spell slot, the arc of lightning leaps to another target for each spell level above 1st. Each target must be within the spell's range of the previous target, and must be a different creature than the previous target.

((This spell is roughly modeled on magic missile, with the auto-damage, but it has more variance and slightly more damage potential, while also requiring at least two targets to do its arcing thing when upcast. It CAN split the damage more-or-less evenly between two targets if it jumps back and forth, but it's hardly an efficient upcasting.))

Thunderball
1st level evocation
Casting time: 1 action
Components: V, S
Range: 60 feet (line)
Duration: Instantaneous
A sphere of pure sound condenses in your hand, rumbling with barely-contained power. With an underhand gesture you set it rolling in a straight line out from you. It expands to a five-foot diameter sphere and thunders out to sixty feet away from you. Creatures in its path must make a Strength saving throw or take 2d6 Thunder damage and be pushed to any adjacent empty square not in the area of effect. If there are no valid empty squares, they're pushed to the next one along the line and must repeat the save, along with any creature in that square, with the same consequences. If they succeed the save, they instead take half damage and are not pushed.

[GalvanicFour64]

At level 6, they can control the weather and call a storm, so long as they don't call lightning. Only rain and wind, no thunder and lightning!

They can’t call anything at 6th level, only stop rain in a specific area or change wind direction.
See my point?

[GalvanicFour64]

What if there were just a couple more lightning and thunder spells at first level on the Sorcerer list?

Zap
1st level evocation
Casting time: 1 action
Components: V, S
Range: 30 feet
Duration: Instantaneous
You point your finger at a target and an arc of electricity leaps out to it, dealing 1d6 lightning damage.
At higher levels. When cast from a 2nd level or higher spell slot, the arc of lightning leaps to another target for each spell level above 1st. Each target must be within the spell's range of the previous target, and must be a different creature than the previous target.

((This spell is roughly modeled on magic missile, with the auto-damage, but it has more variance and slightly more damage potential, while also requiring at least two targets to do its arcing thing when upcast. It CAN split the damage more-or-less evenly between two targets if it jumps back and forth, but it's hardly an efficient upcasting.))

Thunderball
1st level evocation
Casting time: 1 action
Components: V, S
Range: 60 feet (line)
Duration: Instantaneous
A sphere of pure sound condenses in your hand, rumbling with barely-contained power. With an underhand gesture you set it rolling in a straight line out from you. It expands to a five-foot diameter sphere and thunders out to sixty feet away from you. Creatures in its path must make a Strength saving throw or take 2d6 Thunder damage and be pushed to any adjacent empty square not in the area of effect. If there are no valid empty squares, they're pushed to the next one along the line and must repeat the save, along with any creature in that square, with the same consequences. If they succeed the save, they instead take half damage and are not pushed.

Nice ideas man don’t get me wrong, but we can just reflavour spells, and it’s more the subclass that’s the issue being discussed rn rather than the spells used

[Segev]

Nice ideas man don’t get me wrong, but we can just reflavour spells, and it’s more the subclass that’s the issue being discussed rn rather than the spells used

Sure. My point here is that one of the issues is a lack of spells to trigger a subclass feature on. Does fixing that make the subclass feature sufficient to alleviate the issue with it? If not, what problem(s) remain?

[GalvanicFour64]

Sure. My point here is that one of the issues is a lack of spells to trigger a subclass feature on. Does fixing that make the subclass feature sufficient to alleviate the issue with it? If not, what problem(s) remain?

Fair enough you right,
So recently my mind has almost been completely changed about this, just one thing remains
Does the no opportunity attacks stretch to the full 40 feet of movement or just the 10 feet? If not then I think the issue is tempestuous magic not being efficient enough cos apparently a lot of people think the HotS is very very useful so I think that issues been eliminated.

[Nhorianscum]

Sure. My point here is that one of the issues is a lack of spells to trigger a subclass feature on. Does fixing that make the subclass feature sufficient to alleviate the issue with it? If not, what problem(s) remain?

Eh, Sorc isn't ever running more than 2, maaaaaybe 3 attack spells ever.

[Segev]

Eh, Sorc isn't ever running more than 2, maaaaaybe 3 attack spells ever.But they might like to have some options to choose from in deciding which one, and have some at low level. They rotate them out as they get better ones up the way.


Fair enough you right,
So recently my mind has almost been completely changed about this, just one thing remains
Does the no opportunity attacks stretch to the full 40 feet of movement or just the 10 feet? If not then I think the issue is tempestuous magic not being efficient enough cos apparently a lot of people think the HotS is very very useful so I think that issues been eliminated.I imagine it's just the 10 feet. But remember that you don't provoke OAs just for moving through threatened space. You have to be engaged with the other creature(s) to do so. In 5e, if you don't start engaged with them, you can run past a whole line of enemies and out to the other side without provoking any OAs.

[Edea]

...I almost feel like this origin was supposed to be 'yeah, your dad enlarged himself and boned a storm giant', but then they forgot the sorcerer chassis doesn't really scream 'mini-storm giant'. More 'precious and fragile glowbug everyone likes who dies if it rains too hard'...

[GalvanicFour64]

But they might like to have some options to choose from in deciding which one, and have some at low level. They rotate them out as they get better ones up the way.

I imagine it's just the 10 feet. But remember that you don't provoke OAs just for moving through threatened space. You have to be engaged with the other creature(s) to do so. In 5e, if you don't start engaged with them, you can run past a whole line of enemies and out to the other side without provoking any OAs.

Whilst you’re right about the want for more options, personally I think we could just reflavours spells to lightning and thunder damage, not saying have a thunder damage fireball, but lightning damage? Sure. Thunder based shadow blade per exampl? Fine too. Ygm? Like for example making “scorching ray” into “Destructive Bolts” and changing the damage to lightning.

About tempestuous magic tho, it is sort of built for these combat encounters right? I.E being engaged with enemies cos that’s gonna eventually end up happening during combat right? So wouldn’t that make 10 feet kinda pointless? Unless you’re like 25 feet from an enemy in the first place but if you’re that far away already then you can just move without it and it’d make no difference.

[GalvanicFour64]

Eh, Sorc isn't ever running more than 2, maaaaaybe 3 attack spells ever.

What level we talking here? When you say ever do you mean level 20...?

[Segev]

Whilst you’re right about the want for more options, personally I think we could just reflavours spells to lightning and thunder damage, not saying have a thunder damage fireball, but lightning damage? Sure. Thunder based shadow blade per exampl? Fine too. Ygm? Like for example making “scorching ray” into “Destructive Bolts” and changing the damage to lightning.

About tempestuous magic tho, it is sort of built for these combat encounters right? I.E being engaged with enemies cos that’s gonna eventually end up happening during combat right? So wouldn’t that make 10 feet kinda pointless? Unless you’re like 25 feet from an enemy in the first place but if you’re that far away already then you can just move without it and it’d make no difference.

I don’t understand your second paragraph. Could you please illustrate your point by an example? I think I am picturing a use case different from what you are, but I am not sure what you’re picturing.

[GalvanicFour64]

I don’t understand your second paragraph. Could you please illustrate your point by an example? I think I am picturing a use case different from what you are, but I am not sure what you’re picturing.

Like let’s say for example the party is ambushed so the combatants are within around 40 feet max of the PCs
Let’s say me the storm sorcerer casts thunder wave pushing back like 2/5 of the bandits (why not)
Then I use tempestuous magic to fly back to get some range, So that’s 10 feet of movement without provoking AoO. Nice.
Now I can use the rest of my movement (30 feet) to get some more distance.
I can still be attacked by the other 3/5 bandits and even by the other 2 if I’m unlucky enough so the 10 feet hasn’t really done much to help.

Am I playing this wrong or is this a valid point?

[Nhorianscum]

What level we talking here? When you say ever do you mean level 20...?

I mean ever. There's no point to having more than that.

[Segev]

Like let’s say for example the party is ambushed so the combatants are within around 40 feet max of the PCs
Let’s say me the storm sorcerer casts thunder wave pushing back like 2/5 of the bandits (why not)
Then I use tempestuous magic to fly back to get some range, So that’s 10 feet of movement without provoking AoO. Nice.
Now I can use the rest of my movement (30 feet) to get some more distance.
I can still be attacked by the other 3/5 bandits and even by the other 2 if I’m unlucky enough so the 10 feet hasn’t really done much to help.

Am I playing this wrong or is this a valid point?
I’m trying to picture how you’ve been positioned that blowing away 2/5 of the bandits and then moving ten feet has you still adjacent to bandits that have engaged melee with you already.

You don’t provoke OAs moving through threatened spaces (at least not without special abilities for those doing the threatening) in 5e. So as long as you’ve gotten out of reach of the bandits that had engaged with you in melee already, any new ones you’re next to don’t get to make OAs as you pass them. Unless I’m grossly misremembering 5e’s OA rules.

In any event, the text of the storm sorcerer only says the ten feet it’s granting you don’t provoke OAs. Your normal movement is unmodified. Which is why you can’t fly your full 40 feet, either. Just the ten from the feature; have to move normally for the rest.

[GalvanicFour64]

I’m trying to picture how you’ve been positioned that blowing away 2/5 of the bandits and then moving ten feet has you still adjacent to bandits that have engaged melee with you already.

You don’t provoke OAs moving through threatened spaces (at least not without special abilities for those doing the threatening) in 5e. So as long as you’ve gotten out of reach of the bandits that had engaged with you in melee already, any new ones you’re next to don’t get to make OAs as you pass them. Unless I’m grossly misremembering 5e’s OA rules.

In any event, the text of the storm sorcerer only says the ten feet it’s granting you don’t provoke OAs. Your normal movement is unmodified. Which is why you can’t fly your full 40 feet, either. Just the ten from the feature; have to move normally for the rest.

Oh ok that changes things then if that’s the case, wasn’t aware of that.

Thanks man!

[DracoKnight]

The big complaints I’ve got with it are the lack of built in armor and HP. Pretty soon Mountain Dwarf can get +2 CHA and Medium Armor. Combine that with the Tough feat and the weapons that Dwarves get and I think you have the basis for a really solid mobile/striker gish.

[GandalfTheWhite]

The big complaints I’ve got with it are the lack of built in armor and HP. Pretty soon Mountain Dwarf can get +2 CHA and Medium Armor. Combine that with the Tough feat and the weapons that Dwarves get and I think you have the basis for a really solid mobile/striker gish.

{scrubbed}

[DracoKnight]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You say while your sig talks about how Gandalf, one of the quintessential wizards, is a gish... dude, you’re 2 negative posts from getting put on my ignore list. Have a good day.

[GandalfTheWhite]

You say while your sig talks about how Gandalf, one of the quintessential wizards, is a gish... dude, you’re 2 negative posts from getting put on my ignore list. Have a good day.

{scrubbed}

Anyway, back to the discussion. Storm Sorcerer sucks and needs a rewrite from the ground up to be worthwhile. Just play a dragon sorcerer and pick one of the Lightning origins, you'll be better able to capture the fantasy.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You don’t provoke OAs moving through threatened spaces (at least not without special abilities for those doing the threatening) in 5e. So as long as you’ve gotten out of reach of the bandits that had engaged with you in melee already, any new ones you’re next to don’t get to make OAs as you pass them. Unless I’m grossly misremembering 5e’s OA rules.


Wait...what?

You provoke an OA any time you move from within the reach of a hostile creature's weapons to out of that reach. Whether they've already attacked you or not is irrelevant.

So passing into someone's reach bubble and then out of it again provokes OAs as normal. If there's a long line of people and you start with only one of them in range and then you walk past each and every one of them, they each get an OA attempt (assuming they haven't used their reaction already).

There is no such thing as "engaging you in melee" at least by default. You are automatically threatened by a creature if you are inside their reach at any point during your turn.

For example, the Mobile feat only applies against those you attack, so if you attack one person, move away (no provoking due to the feat) and past another without attacking, that second person gets an OA.

[Segev]

Wait...what?

You provoke an OA any time you move from within the reach of a hostile creature's weapons to out of that reach. Whether they've already attacked you or not is irrelevant.

So passing into someone's reach bubble and then out of it again provokes OAs as normal. If there's a long line of people and you start with only one of them in range and then you walk past each and every one of them, they each get an OA attempt (assuming they haven't used their reaction already).

There is no such thing as "engaging you in melee" at least by default. You are automatically threatened by a creature if you are inside their reach at any point during your turn.

For example, the Mobile feat only applies against those you attack, so if you attack one person, move away (no provoking due to the feat) and past another without attacking, that second person gets an OA.

Really? I'll have to reread the rules, then. Does Disengage protect you from each of those, or if there's a long line of folks, are you in trouble even if you try to Disengage?

[micahaphone]

Really? I'll have to reread the rules, then. Does Disengage protect you from each of those, or if there's a long line of folks, are you in trouble even if you try to Disengage?

From the SRD:

Disengage

If you take the Disengage action, your Movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks for the rest of the turn.

[PhoenixPhyre]

From the SRD:

Disengage

If you take the Disengage action, your Movement doesn’t provoke Opportunity Attacks for the rest of the turn.

Right. Disengage works for the rest of your turn. That's the power of it. Anything else only does what it says.