Does this fix the warlock Bladepact?

[GalvanicFour64]

Would moving the second half of hex warrior (so the CHA weapons, not the proficiencies) to pact of the blade finally grant this pact boon justice?

I mean Since the whole point of the blade pact is basically to summon weapons AND be good with them, this made perfect sense to me.

I’m leaving the proficiencies behind cos someone brought to my attention that giving them the proficiencies aswell might make bladelocks slightly OP, what are your opinions on this aswell?

[cutlery]

Would moving the second half of hex warrior (so the CHA weapons, not the proficiencies) to pact of the blade finally grant this pact boon justice?

I mean Since the whole point of the blade pact is basically to summon weapons AND be good with them, this made perfect sense to me.

I’m leaving the proficiencies behind cos someone brought to my attention that giving them the proficiencies aswell might make bladelocks slightly OP, what are your opinions on this aswell?

I think it's a start (and certainly makes the pact itself stronger for other patrons). It doesn't fix the invocation tax, though - and I'm not sure what would without a somewhat heavy redesign.

That said, they still do pretty ok through tier 2 and at the beginning of tier 3.

I think you'll still have some warlocks investing in str and dipping fighter or investing in dex just for the armor class, as non-hexblade warlocks tend to have a rather poor AC, which isn't wise for a melee character. If they invest in dex for ac, they might as well swing a finesse weapon. If they invest in str - well, ok. A 15 str with a fighter dip for heavy armor won't be that bad, and you can then focus your ASIs on cha for a bladepact fiendlock, say.

[nickl_2000]

I think the bigger effect is to discourage the Hexblade 1 dip than it is to encourage someone to take Bladepact. I'm not saying this is bad in anyway, but putting it out there.

[Segev]

My solution (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587734-Turning-the-Hexblade-quot-Patron-quot-into-modular-powers) is one I find myself posting a link to a lot this week (sorry).

I think putting Cha on the pact wouldn't be too bad, and either putting Thirsting Blade or Improved Pact Weapon onto it would work.

My own solution uses a Cantrip to achieve the Cha SADness, and to acknowledge Hexblade's attempt at fixing Pact of the Blade by making a spell and invocation set to get those powers onto another patron...but that's because my fix's purpose is more to remove Hexblade as a Patron.

[Dork_Forge]

Do you find Blade Pact actually lacking if you ignore the Hexblade?

Personally I'd be reluctant to just fold it in, I'd rather make Cha SAD be an invocation for them.

[Segev]

Do you find Blade Pact actually lacking if you ignore the Hexblade?

Personally I'd be reluctant to just fold it in, I'd rather make Cha SAD be an invocation for them.

If all you want is to put in the SAD Cha, and you want it from level 1, then making it a Cantrip modeled on shilelagh is my suggestion.

Hexblade
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a simple melee weapon)
Duration: 1 minute
The simple melee weapon you are holding is imbued with your Patron's power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of attacks using that weapon. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if the weapon is not in your hand at the end of your turn. If you have Pact of the Blade, you can cast this spell on your Pact Weapon as part of making an attack with it, and your Pact Weapon is a valid target for this spell no matter its form.

[nickl_2000]

If all you want is to put in the SAD Cha, and you want it from level 1, then making it a Cantrip modeled on shilelagh is my suggestion.

Hexblade
Transmutation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a simple melee weapon)
Duration: 1 minute
The simple melee weapon you are holding is imbued with your Patron's power. For the duration, you can use your spellcasting ability instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of attacks using that weapon. The weapon also becomes magical, if it isn’t already. The spell ends if you cast it again or if the weapon is not in your hand at the end of your turn. If you have Pact of the Blade, you can cast this spell on your Pact Weapon as part of making an attack with it, and your Pact Weapon is a valid target for this spell no matter its form.

This makes it available for MI: Warlock if you do that. Do you see that as a problem?

[Dork_Forge]

This makes it available for MI: Warlock if you do that. Do you see that as a problem?

It also eats a cantrip and makes available to all Warlocks, not just bladelocks (and Tomelocks can get Cha based Shilellagh anyway).

Edit: Though to be clear I don't think the Bladelock needs any of this, it has always been more competitive a Gish than a martial Bard, Bladesinger etc. in my opinion.

[jaappleton]

How to fix Bladepact:

1. CHA for weapons is tied to Pact of the Blade at level 3 to prevent dipping

2. Also move Medium Armor and Shield proficiency either to an Invocation, or to Blade Pact.

In doing this you solve the dipping problem and you give all Bladelocks the requisite armor. Of course, if you play with UA then you have the Eldritch Armor invocation available, granting you proficiency in any armor you touch.

[Segev]

This makes it available for MI: Warlock if you do that. Do you see that as a problem?

No more so than shilelagh is with MI: Druid.

[Dork_Forge]

No more so than shilelagh is with MI: Druid.

Shilellagh doesn't have the balance concern of something like a V. Human Sorcerer grabbing it with default access to SCAGtrips and metamagics like Quicken and Twinned, or a Cha SAD Paladin. Not saying it would be ridiculous, but I think that the Cha version you propose has more balance concerns to think about than the OG Druid version.

[Amnestic]

No more so than shilelagh is with MI: Druid.

Wis-focused melee, despite shillelagh, isn't as big a thing as cha-focused melee, so while comparable in nature I don't think their impact would be the same at all.

[GalvanicFour64]

I think the bigger effect is to discourage the Hexblade 1 dip than it is to encourage someone to take Bladepact. I'm not saying this is bad in anyway, but putting it out there.

No I definitely think you’re right, it’s something that kinda gets annoying to see after a while, unless you’re really into minmaxing then by all means enjoy yourself the way you want to

[KorvinStarmast]

Do you find Blade Pact actually lacking if you ignore the Hexblade?
It lacks Medium Armor proficiency, which Valor Bards get (for one)

Personally I'd be reluctant to just fold it in, I'd rather make Cha SAD be an invocation for them. Does that become an invocation tax, or is this still a matter of customization and choices?

FWIW, I think that warlock ought to get one more invocation before the capstone, and that the number by level from 0 to 20 ought to be ... 0-2-2-3-3-4-4-5-5-6-6-7-7-7-8-8-8-9-9-9. Granted, the ability to swap out an invocation at each level up is a way to customize, but some invocations never get let go of in the blade path.

[GalvanicFour64]

My solution is one I find myself posting a link to a lot this week (sorry).

I think putting Cha on the pact wouldn't be too bad, and either putting Thirsting Blade or Improved Pact Weapon onto it would work.

My own solution uses a Cantrip to achieve the Cha SADness, and to acknowledge Hexblade's attempt at fixing Pact of the Blade by making a spell and invocation set to get those powers onto another patron...but that's because my fix's purpose is more to remove Hexblade as a Patron.

Nah man don’t apologise, it’s cool

I just don’t think that using Spells and invocations is the way out, atleast not spells, invocations are cool

That being said, the link is pretty sick, nicely done man

[GalvanicFour64]

I think it's a start (and certainly makes the pact itself stronger for other patrons). It doesn't fix the invocation tax, though - and I'm not sure what would without a somewhat heavy redesign.

That said, they still do pretty ok through tier 2 and at the beginning of tier 3.

I think you'll still have some warlocks investing in str and dipping fighter or investing in dex just for the armor class, as non-hexblade warlocks tend to have a rather poor AC, which isn't wise for a melee character. If they invest in dex for ac, they might as well swing a finesse weapon. If they invest in str - well, ok. A 15 str with a fighter dip for heavy armor won't be that bad, and you can then focus your ASIs on cha for a bladepact fiendlock, say.

Hmmmmmmmm
You right you right

[GalvanicFour64]

Do you find Blade Pact actually lacking if you ignore the Hexblade?

Personally I'd be reluctant to just fold it in, I'd rather make Cha SAD be an invocation for them.

I mean you’re supposed to be able to summon any weapon and use it like a boss.
Majority of weapons are strength so if the class gets a bit MAD in using its own ability thennnn...ygm?

[KorvinStarmast]

A 15 str with a fighter dip for heavy armor won't be that bad, and you can then focus your ASIs on cha for a bladepact fiendlock, say.
Paladin at level 1, then lock? Heavy armor for the win and Charisma needed anyway ...

[Segev]

Shilellagh doesn't have the balance concern of something like a V. Human Sorcerer grabbing it with default access to SCAGtrips and metamagics like Quicken and Twinned, or a Cha SAD Paladin. Not saying it would be ridiculous, but I think that the Cha version you propose has more balance concerns to think about than the OG Druid version.


Wis-focused melee, despite shillelagh, isn't as big a thing as cha-focused melee, so while comparable in nature I don't think their impact would be the same at all.

Feats are, by some readings, more expensive than multiclassing. Though I do get the concern and concede that, as long as shilelagh remains a Druid-only spell and doesn't find its way into a Cha-caster list, you're right about the Wis-focus being less problematic. (Though a Monk/Shilelagh user could be interesting, getting Wis to his flurry with his quarterstaff, maybe.)


I just don’t think that using Spells and invocations is the way out, at least not spells, invocations are coolWhy do you say that? I chose to split it between invocations and spells in order to spread the burden on the Warlock's build resources, and also because the Hexblade's Curse was basically a spell-as-class-feature anyway. The limit on spell slots makes it viable to use in some combats but not others. While being a little more renewable. I limit it from multiclassing with the upcasting requirement - it's a lot more expensive for non-warlocks to upcast. And by the Invocations, which expand it, being Warlock-exclusive. (I wrote this before the UA that gave us the feat to buy Invocations, but coincidentally, it requires minimum warlock levels anyway.)


That being said, the link is pretty sick, nicely done manThanks! :smallbiggrin:

[cutlery]

Do you find Blade Pact actually lacking if you ignore the Hexblade?

Personally I'd be reluctant to just fold it in, I'd rather make Cha SAD be an invocation for them.

I think this is a broader problem if you start going down the path of SADness for classes that cast and engage in melee, and yes, I think that is a problem. But this change to blade pact when the hexblade is already in the mix - no.

If you want to see some serious WTF SADness, check out Odyssey of the Dragonlords Demigod sorcerer - cha to hit/damage at level one. Like, of course folks are going to MC with paladin if that is on the table.

[Yakk]

Pact of the Blade: When you make a weapon attack with your Pact Blade, you add 1/2 of your charisma bonus to damage. If the weapon is non-magical, you also add 1/2 of your charisma bonus to hit; if it is magical, instead add +1.

While wielding the Pact Weapon, when you cast a warlock spell that involves a ranged spell attack, you may choose to instead make a melee spell attack. If you do so, you may add 1/2 of your strength modifier (round up) to any damage done (if the Pact Weapon is Finesse, you may instead add 1/2 of your dexterity modifier (round up)).

Pact of the Chain: Your familiar has an additional 3 HP per warlock class level. As a bonus action you can order your use its action to attack. All creatures you summon using Invocations or Warlock spell slots or class levels gain a bonus to AC, saves and damage rolls equal to your proficiency bonus, except when saving against an effect you impose or dealing damage to you or when you attack them.

Pact of the Book: While holding your Book you can expend an action to regain an expended warlock spell slot. The slot's level is your intelligence bonus (min 1), but never higher than the expended spell slot. You can do this once before completing a short rest.

---

Base class feature (steal damage bonus from Hexblade):

Eldritch Blast: This is a warlock class feature. You gain additional beams based on your Warlock class level, not overall level.

Superior Hex: At 1st level, when you cast Hex on a creature, you may make it a Superior Hex. Add your proficiency bonus to the Hex damage on that target. You may do this once before completing a short rest.

Hexblade's Curse: No longer grants a bonus to damage rolls (stolen by Superior Hex above).

---

Invocation:
Hex Ward: (Requires Pact of the Blade) While holding your pact weapon, you can summon a magical ward that faintly flickers around you as a bonus action. Until you dismiss it or drop your pact weapon, your AC is equal to your 10 plus your charisma bonus plus 1/2 of your dexterity modifier. If at least one hand has no weapons in it and you are not using a shield, you gain an additional 2 AC.

---

Design notes:

1) I gave Pact of the Blade a 1/2 cha-based damage and attack bonus. This makes a 14 dex/16 charisma character competent with their pact knife or rapier.

They also gained "cast ranged magic attacks as melee" with a small damage bonus. This lets you EB in melee range.

A level 5 blade pact warlock with 16 dex and 18 cha and agonizing blast can do a +8 vs AC (1d10+6)x2 melee spell attack that deals force damage. Their melee attack with a rapier is is +9 vs AC for 1d8+5 damage.

2) I boosted the other 2 pacts with more meaty features.

3) I moved Hex damage bonus to baseline warlock. You still get 19-20 crits.

4) I created a medium armor+shield level "ward" invocation for blade pact warlocks.


Level 5 half-elven fey bladelock.

Invocations: Agonizing blast, Hex ward, 2 others.

18 Cha 16 Dex 13 Con

Pact rapier

AC: 17 (10+4 cha + 1 dex + 2 free hand)
HP: 37
At-will: +7 vs AC for 1d10+6 (11.5) force damage, x2 (melee range EB+AB)
With Superior Hex, deals 1d10+1d6+9 (18) x2.

Melee attack: +8 vs AC for 1d8+5 piercing damage (x1, no thirsting blade)

At level 20 with 20 dex 20 cha 14 con and a staff of power (pact weapon), bracers of defence
AC: 23 (10+5 cha + 2 dex + 2 staff of power in 1 hand + 2 bracers +2 free hand)
HP: 163
At-will: +13 vs AC for 1d10+8 (13.5) force damage, x4 (melee range EB+AB)
With superior Hex 1d10+1d6+14 (23)

Melee attack: +13 vs AC for 1d6+10 (13.5) blunt damage (x1, no thirsting blade)

[Dork_Forge]

It lacks Medium Armor proficiency, which Valor Bards get (for one)
Does that become an invocation tax, or is this still a matter of customization and choices?
I think the latest armor invocation that we'll probably see in Tasha's remedies that, they at least get light armor (not all gishes need to have medium armor after all).

Personally I don't see it as an invocation tax, Pacts give you a schtick, if you want to get better at it then why not invest class resources to do so?


FWIW, I think that warlock ought to get one more invocation before the capstone, and that the number by level from 0 to 20 ought to be ... 0-2-2-3-3-4-4-5-5-6-6-7-7-7-8-8-8-9-9-9. Granted, the ability to swap out an invocation at each level up is a way to customize, but some invocations never get let go of in the blade path.

I can agree on the extra invocation certainly.


I mean you’re supposed to be able to summon any weapon and use it like a boss.
Majority of weapons are strength so if the class gets a bit MAD in using its own ability thennnn...ygm?

Why should you a gish get to be as good at spellcasting as a Warlock that invests in it entirely? It allows you to summon a blade at will that you're proficient in, that's already pretty cool and makes them better at it than other Warlocks. Investing in a physical stat (especially Dex) to be what you want is hardly bad, SADness shouldn't be the default for each stat imo.



I think this is a broader problem if you start going down the path of SADness for classes that cast and engage in melee, and yes, I think that is a problem. But this change to blade pact when the hexblade is already in the mix - no.

If you want to see some serious WTF SADness, check out Odyssey of the Dragonlords Demigod sorcerer - cha to hit/damage at level one. Like, of course folks are going to MC with paladin if that is on the table.

If a DM is making changes like this to a campaign then I'd just rip the SADness out of Hexblade, the curse is more than enough and more inline with the other patrons.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the latest armor invocation that we'll probably see in Tasha's remedies that, they at least get light armor (not all gishes need to have medium armor after all).
Unless it's in print I don't consider it applicable, but thanks for the point on that.

Personally I don't see it as an invocation tax, Pacts give you a schtick, if you want to get better at it then why not invest class resources to do so? Fair point.

I can agree on the extra invocation certainly. Thanks, I think it would mitigate slightly the reall necking down of power that Mystic Arcanum represents.

[Amechra]

I personally prefer adding the proficiencies to Pact of the Blade instead - the actual issue with Warlocks going into melee is that they're squishy, and better armor/shields is basically mandatory for them to serve in any sort of melee role.

[Amnestic]

I personally prefer adding the proficiencies to Pact of the Blade instead - the actual issue with Warlocks going into melee is that they're squishy, and better armor/shields is basically mandatory for them to serve in any sort of melee role.

I agree - moving Hex Warrior's features to PotB is a simple+easy 'fix'. It also means that if you are going single class 'lock you get more varied melee patrons than "mysterious shadowfell entity" for everyone.

Hexblade's curse is perfectly fine on its own as a 1st level patron feature honestly.

[cutlery]

I personally prefer adding the proficiencies to Pact of the Blade instead - the actual issue with Warlocks going into melee is that they're squishy, and better armor/shields is basically mandatory for them to serve in any sort of melee role.

Yeah, then it quickly becomes 3 invocations to keep melee up to par; perhaps it already is w/ armor of shadows if not hexblade and not dipping for armor.

Eldritch armor doesn't negate the strength requirement for heavy armor, either.

[GalvanicFour64]

I personally prefer adding the proficiencies to Pact of the Blade instead - the actual issue with Warlocks going into melee is that they're squishy, and better armor/shields is basically mandatory for them to serve in any sort of melee role.

And you don’t think it’d be Too powerful at all? What with blasting capabilities, utility, tanking, control, etc etc
Wouldn’t it have it all?

[LudicSavant]

Being able to use Cha for weapon attacks seems like a completely fair addition to Pact of the Blade, given that Pact of the Tome can get Shillelagh + Booming Blade.

[GalvanicFour64]

Being able to use Cha for weapon attacks seems like a completely fair addition to Pact of the Blade, given that Pact of the Tome can get Shillelagh + Booming Blade.

Exactly right
And given that you get proficiency with the conjured weapon anyway it makes perfect sense

[chainer1216]

Do you find Blade Pact actually lacking if you ignore the Hexblade?

Personally I'd be reluctant to just fold it in, I'd rather make Cha SAD be an invocation for them.

Everything about this post is bad.

Comparing pact of the blade to the other two is a joke, 3 cantrips from any classes or a familiar that is better than any other classes familiar or a...summonable weapon, on a casting class...whose main schtick is an At-Will ranged attack spell.

The second suggestion is to make cha to melee an invocation, on a path that already REQUIRES 2 invocations to work.

[Dork_Forge]

Everything about this post is bad.

Comparing pact of the blade to the other two is a joke, 3 cantrips from any classes or a familiar that is better than any other classes familiar or a...summonable weapon, on a casting class...whose main schtick is an At-Will ranged attack spell.

The second suggestion is to make cha to melee an invocation, on a path that already REQUIRES 2 invocations to work.

On a class whose main schtick can be an at-will ranged attack spell, is that spell requiring invocations to be worth being a main schtick okay then? Pact of the Blade allows you to create any melee weapon you want and grants your proficiency in it or bond with a magic weapon that you can shunt into a pocket dimension at will. Personally I don't think having to invest in your playstyle is a bad thing, rather than having SADness handed to you. If you're choosing Pact of the Blade then you're choosing to fight with a weapon, having to use a physical stat to do so isn't a bad thing. I'm curious what two invocations you think this pact needs to work is though?

Personally I've always held bladelocks as one of the more compelling Gish choices (before Hexblade came out), it's the only full caster Gish to pick up a second attack at the same level martials do and can at the same time pick up at-will temp hp to close the hp gap between them and the martials. That doesn't seem like a weak choice to me, especially not when you can throw Hex on top of your damage, so why do you think it's so bad? Why do you think it not only needs to be Cha SAD, but that it should be handed to you for no reason? Why should you at the same time become as good at melee as you are at casting with no investment on your part? And what about people that want to invest in a physical stat? Afterall if you compare a Cha SAD Bladelock to a Dex based Bladelock, the Dex based has a lot going for it that the Cha based can't really compete with.

I'd like you to avoid blanketly referring to something as bad if possible please, it's rude and your own post is incredibly subjective.

[Asisreo1]

On a class whose main schtick can be an at-will ranged attack spell, is that spell requiring invocations to be worth being a main schtick okay then? Pact of the Blade allows you to create any melee weapon you want and grants your proficiency in it or bond with a magic weapon that you can shunt into a pocket dimension at will. Personally I don't think having to invest in your playstyle is a bad thing, rather than having SADness handed to you. If you're choosing Pact of the Blade then you're choosing to fight with a weapon, having to use a physical stat to do so isn't a bad thing. I'm curious what two invocations you think this pact needs to work is though?

Personally I've always held bladelocks as one of the more compelling Gish choices (before Hexblade came out), it's the only full caster Gish to pick up a second attack at the same level martials do and can at the same time pick up at-will temp hp to close the hp gap between them and the martials. That doesn't seem like a weak choice to me, especially not when you can throw Hex on top of your damage, so why do you think it's so bad? Why do you think it not only needs to be Cha SAD, but that it should be handed to you for no reason? Why should you at the same time become as good at melee as you are at casting with no investment on your part? And what about people that want to invest in a physical stat? Afterall if you compare a Cha SAD Bladelock to a Dex based Bladelock, the Dex based has a lot going for it that the Cha based can't really compete with.

I'd like you to avoid blanketly referring to something as bad if possible please, it's rude and your own post is incredibly subjective.
Allow me to introduce Pact of the Chain.

The pact boon that grants the warlock magic resistance at level 3 for the majority of their time.

The imp and quasit are great combat familiars. A quasit can use Scare without using up your attack action. Those with invisibility can do so without expending your attack either. When it is your turn, the familiars will do more damage than your eldritch blast for the majority of your tier 1 career.

The Sprite is the superior scout since it can not only go invisible but can also read people's emotions while invisible (it can also help see for you while invisible, casting spells like silent image or hex).

Psuedodragons are good in situations where you can't speak but you need to communicate and you don't want to take a whole invocation to do so. It also has a sting that has a low chance of instantly knocking a low-con enemy out.

[cutlery]

Personally I've always held bladelocks as one of the more compelling Gish choices (before Hexblade came out), it's the only full caster Gish to pick up a second attack at the same level martials do and can at the same time pick up at-will temp hp to close the hp gap between them and the martials. That doesn't seem like a weak choice to me, especially not when you can throw Hex on top of your damage, so why do you think it's so bad?

Armor class, for one, and damage output for another.

A bladelock built for melee is generally worse at it and squishier than others. Even things like a bladesinger.

That same bladelock built for melee can outdamage themselves with eb+ab, and better avoid the situations where a low AC is such a problem, without playing games with darkness or using up their concentration (thus forgoing hex).

You can fighter or paladin dip to counter some of that, but once multiclasses are on the table you have fighter/wizards and paladin/sorcerers to contend with.

I don't think eldritch blast needs to be nerfed, as it is what many warlocks rely on because of a paucity of slots. I do think deeply invested melee needs an edge on EB/AB to account for how dangerous it is. EB/AB can also more easily make use of darkness/devil's sight without causing trouble for the other melee in the party.

Even with the armor invocation; we're talking three required invocations by 12; four if you think false life is still relevant at that level (I don't), and probably one or two feats (GWM, PAM - though these curtail your selection of weapon types)

If we don't consider feats (EB+AB doesn't really require them), blade pact and building for melee is comparable to blade singing only less durable; it has a slight damage edge at 5 and at 12-13, but gets matched by then and is nowhere near as durable, nor can it keep up in terms of casting with most adventuring days, it doesn't have the boost to con saves to maintain concentration, and has a more constrained list. The blade lock also won't ever be casting shadow blade at 7th level (and if someone is dedicated to the idea of being in melee, that's not such a terrible use of the slot).

A bladesinger also has access to blink and steel wind strike.

[Amnestic]

I do think deeply invested melee needs an edge on EB/AB to account for how dangerous it is.

I'm still not sure how I feel about it but I've toyed with the idea of adding an Eldritch Blade* cantrip/class feature to specifically Bladepact that scales like Eldritch Blast but on a 1d12 instead of 1d10, to reflect its melee being more dangerous. You'd need to look at relevant invocations and change those so it'd be more work than just dropping it onto the subclass and calling it a day but would an extra 1 (average) damage per attack be sufficient? idk maybe.

*sometimes its Eldritch Claws depending on my mood.

[cutlery]

I'm still not sure how I feel about it but I've toyed with the idea of adding an Eldritch Blade* cantrip/class feature to specifically Bladepact that scales like Eldritch Blast but on a 1d12 instead of 1d10, to reflect its melee being more dangerous. You'd need to look at relevant invocations and change those so it'd be more work than just dropping it onto the subclass and calling it a day but would an extra 1 (average) damage per attack be sufficient? idk maybe.

*sometimes its Eldritch Claws depending on my mood.

That might not be so bad, when you account for the fact they wouldn't be able to move in between swings (or whatever they're called).

I'd probably make it "melee" range instead of "5ft" unless you wanted it to interact with spell sniper - maybe letting it work with spell sniper isn't an issue, as they'd still need a reach weapon - assuming they'd be using their melee weapon to attack with it, like SCAG cantrips. Maybe they only make a melee attack with the first swing and the others are force reverberations.

I'd want to simulate that out compared to a 15th level invocation to grant a third attack. Both edge in on fighter territory, and might be too much.


1d12+cha is the chance for 11*4 at 17, with 4 doses of hex; or 58 average damage (realistically 34.8 against ac 19 with max cha)

EB/AB at 17 is 54 damage; or 32.4 against AC 19.

greatsword bladepact with relevant invocations is 2d6+5+5 + hex at 17, or 41; averaging 24.6 against ac 19.


So, your new cantrip is pretty close; but the bladepact falls well behind.



Fighter doing his thing at 17 is (2d6+5)*3 = 36 (24 with accuracy in the equation), with options for GWM and so on if they spend their extra ASIs that way; assuming the dice favor them that's 66 with GWM, and another 1d4+15 if they went pole arm master (-3 or so, as the first three attacks aren't with a greatsword), if their bonus action is free that round; so a GWM+PAM fighter is putting out (1d10+15)*3+1d4+15, or 79 damage (31.6 against ac 19 with accuracy factored in). Usually, the damage output from GWM is worth a few points over not using it when accuracy is taken into consideration; the point at which it is a loss depends on armor class, attack mod, and proficiency bonus. (At level 17, a fighter with str 20 will average 2.62 points more per round with GWM vs not using it when attacking armor class 19; archetype features and PAM not included - so the real difference between them is much less stark)

An arcane trickster rogue is capable of 1d8+5 +3d8 + 9d6 or 54.5; but is usually better served skipping the SCAG cantrip to have an offhand attack to maximize their chance of landing a sneak attack. Against ac 19 when dual wielding, 33.7 - that second swing nearly always tips the balance.


A bladepact warlock with a 3rd attack also edges too far ahead; (2d6+5+5)*3 or 61.5 with hex (36.9 with accuracy); this is a more reasonable 46.5 (27.9) without lifedrinker; but it's probably the case that adding a third attack will be too much without a big redesign - alternately, carry over the "lacks the two handed property" from hexblade's hex warrior weapon bond feature; which would take GWM off the table and make PAM much less attractive in the bargain and it might not be too bad.


The fighter in the above can have access to toys like blur, blink, mirror image, and greater invisibility, too; they aren't necessarily a pure mundane.

[Dork_Forge]

Allow me to introduce Pact of the Chain.

The pact boon that grants the warlock magic resistance at level 3 for the majority of their time.

The imp and quasit are great combat familiars. A quasit can use Scare without using up your attack action. Those with invisibility can do so without expending your attack either. When it is your turn, the familiars will do more damage than your eldritch blast for the majority of your tier 1 career.

The Sprite is the superior scout since it can not only go invisible but can also read people's emotions while invisible (it can also help see for you while invisible, casting spells like silent image or hex).

Psuedodragons are good in situations where you can't speak but you need to communicate and you don't want to take a whole invocation to do so. It also has a sting that has a low chance of instantly knocking a low-con enemy out.

IIRC the consensus is that Find Fmailiar doesn't grant you the magic resistance of the familiar variant of the actual creature, at the very least it's so uncertain/debated that I don't think that you can rely on it as a given.

familiars are great, but they aren't outdamaging an EB/AB Warlock unless the enemy fails a Con save against one of the most commonly resisted/immune damage types. I love chainlocks, but i really think you're overselling this.


Armor class, for one, and damage output for another.

A bladelock built for melee is generally worse at it and squishier than others. Even things like a bladesinger.

That same bladelock built for melee can outdamage themselves with eb+ab, and better avoid the situations where a low AC is such a problem, without playing games with darkness or using up their concentration (thus forgoing hex).

You can fighter or paladin dip to counter some of that, but once multiclasses are on the table you have fighter/wizards and paladin/sorcerers to contend with.

I don't think eldritch blast needs to be nerfed, as it is what many warlocks rely on because of a paucity of slots. I do think deeply invested melee needs an edge on EB/AB to account for how dangerous it is. EB/AB can also more easily make use of darkness/devil's sight without causing trouble for the other melee in the party.

Even with the armor invocation; we're talking three required invocations by 12; four if you think false life is still relevant at that level (I don't), and probably one or two feats (GWM, PAM - though these curtail your selection of weapon types)

If we don't consider feats (EB+AB doesn't really require them), blade pact and building for melee is comparable to blade singing only less durable; it has a slight damage edge at 5 and at 12-13, but gets matched by then and is nowhere near as durable, nor can it keep up in terms of casting with most adventuring days, it doesn't have the boost to con saves to maintain concentration, and has a more constrained list. The blade lock also won't ever be casting shadow blade at 7th level (and if someone is dedicated to the idea of being in melee, that's not such a terrible use of the slot).

A bladesinger also has access to blink and steel wind strike.

A dex based bladelock is on par with a Rogue for AC without needing Armor of Shadows, if they take it then they're ahead. Damage output is just fine, they get access to Hex and SCAGtrips with the option to pick up a second attack if they want to and even a Smite option is available to them.

I'm not sure why you think damage output is below a Bladesinger, the biggest thing they have going for them is Shadow Blade, which Warlocks have access to. Squishier is also debatable since the Warlock has the hit die advantage and the option to pick up at-will false life to walk into every encounter with 8 temp hp.

Comparing them to EB/AB seems a little redundant since the player clearly wants to not do that by playing a bladelock, but any damage difference is going to be small for most of the actual played levels.

The Bladesinger is dependent on a limited resource that needs a bonus action to activate, which directly competes with Shadow Blade and needs better defenses to make up for the hp gap. Though how are you getting a Bladesinger to have superior damage output to a Bladelock by any substantial margin? By the time 7th level spells are in play the Warlock can have Lifedrinker up.

Here's a significant think that seems ot be missed as well, Blade is not all the Warlock is getting. Bladesinger is the entirity of the Wizard's subclass, the Warlock can have a patron on top of that.

[cutlery]

A dex based bladelock is on par with a Rogue for AC


So, not great, and without cunning action to get out of there.



without needing Armor of Shadows, if they take it then they're ahead. Damage output is just fine, they get access to Hex and SCAGtrips with the option to pick up a second attack if they want to and even a Smite option is available to them.


SCAG cantrip damage isn't something you'd use if you have thirsting blade. At 5th; two attacks are both more consistent and have a higher top end than one attack with a SCAGtrip.




I'm not sure why you think damage output is below a Bladesinger, the biggest thing they have going for them is Shadow Blade, which Warlocks have access to. Squishier is also debatable since the Warlock has the hit die advantage and the option to pick up at-will false life to walk into every encounter with 8 temp hp.


Not 8 at every table, no; and there remain only four total invocations at 7th.

Damage output is about the same as a bladesinger but the bladesinger is more slippery and, at 10th, more durable. False life has long since fallen in usefulness by then, and song of defense offers another resource pool to draw from to take hits.





Comparing them to EB/AB seems a little redundant since the player clearly wants to not do that by playing a bladelock, but any damage difference is going to be small for most of the actual played levels.


The player will know it is always available unless they deliberately choose not to take eldritch blast. I argue that the class is largely balanced around the damage output of eldritch blast, so doing that and relying on the clearly weaker damage output of melee is a mistake.

What I'm arguing is that blade pact should be comparable. It is not.




The Bladesinger is dependent on a limited resource

Warlocks only have an unlimited number of slots in a white room. Their smites and escapes and even shields (if they have access) all draw from the same limited number slots in one encounter, as would shadow blade.

The short adventuring day is far more common than the terribly long adventuring day. The Warlock runs on empty far more often (and for longer) than the bladesinger.

Anyway, bladesinger is just one point of comparison, but one that does all of the gishy things better than a warlock. The EK is similar.

What a warlock can do that neither of them can do is fall back on one of the best at-will ranged attack actions in the game.

[Dork_Forge]

So, not great, and without cunning action to get out of there.

It isn't bad AC and if you want to not be in melee, then just take Improved Pact Weapon and used ranged attacks.


SCAG cantrip damage isn't something you'd use if you have thirsting blade. At 5th; two attacks are both more consistent and have a higher top end than one attack with a SCAGtrip.

I never said that you would take both, I said that you could take a second attack if you wanted to since part of this as a whole is that they require x number of invocations. Though a Celestial Bladelock would get good mileage out of GFB.



Not 8 at every table, no; and there remain only four total invocations at 7th.

If your DM doesn't like the idea of you just casting it until you hit the max, then okay 5-8, average 6.5. Please name the four invocations I have currently said to use all at the same time? These are all options, you can choose to take them to taste, but if you actually invest in being good at melee as a bladelock, you can be.


Damage output is about the same as a bladesinger but the bladesinger is more slippery and, at 10th, more durable. False life has long since fallen in usefulness by then, and song of defense offers another resource pool to draw from to take hits.


What? No, Song of Defense gives you another way to burn your spell slots, it doesn't offer another resource pool at all. It stretches your only pool.

Again, you're comparing an entire subclass against a pact, Fiendlocks get temp hp on a kill, Celestials at 10th get an abundance of temp hp every rest with the option of topping up with False Life between combats if that interests them. I'm deliberately avoiding Hexblade because it's both overpowered and I personally don't like it or what it does to the game.



The player will know it is always available unless they deliberately choose not to take eldritch blast. I argue that the class is largely balanced around the damage output of eldritch blast, so doing that and relying on the clearly weaker damage output of melee is a mistake.

Or unless they don't take AB, since without it EB is mediocre unless you're fighitng low hp mooks.

You keep saying that, so please show me your math on an invested bladelock doing less damage.


What I'm arguing is that blade pact should be comparable. It is not.

Comparable to an entire subclass? No it shouldn't, that's not how Warlocks work. You have a patron and invocations, take it as a whole instead of mistakenly focusing on just the pact and it does compare, favourably.



Warlocks only have an unlimited number of slots in a white room. Their smites and escapes and even shields (if they have access) all draw from the same limited number slots in one encounter, as would shadow blade.

At what point have I indicated anything resembling an assumption of unlimited slots for the Warlock? Shadow Blade should last an entire encounter unless you lose concentration, Smites should be used carefully, the go to damage boost of Hex scales up in duration to the point that a single casting can cover multiple combats. Then there's passive/at-will invocations.


The short adventuring day is far more common than the terribly long adventuring day. The Warlock runs on empty far more often (and for longer) than the bladesinger.

What do you even mean for longer? And yes, of course a short adventuring day favours a long rest class, as it would a Paladin and work against Monks and Fighters. That's not a class problem, that's a table problem.


Anyway, bladesinger is just one point of comparison, but one that does all of the gishy things better than a warlock. The EK is similar.

No, it doesn't do "gishy" things better, that is cleary up for debate. EK is a gish, are you going to now compare the martial prowess of a Fighter like it's the same thing? A more apt comparison would be a martial Bard.


What a warlock can do that neither of them can do is fall back on one of the best at-will ranged attack actions in the game.

The Warlock can do that, but it doesn't need to. This mentality is largely why so many people feel that they need to EB/AB as a Warlock.

[Asisreo1]

IIRC the consensus is that Find Fmailiar doesn't grant you the magic resistance of the familiar variant of the actual creature, at the very least it's so uncertain/debated that I don't think that you can rely on it as a given.

familiars are great, but they aren't outdamaging an EB/AB Warlock unless the enemy fails a Con save against one of the most commonly resisted/immune damage types. I love chainlocks, but i really think you're overselling this.

Let's take an imp, for example. Assuming tier 1 play, Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast does 8.5(1d10+3) damage with a +5 to-hit, this goes up to 9.5 and +6 at the last level of tier 1.

Imp does 1d4+3+3d6 on a failed save with a +6 to hit. That's 16 damage, nearly double with no invocation.

Let's assume they save (or resist). That's still about 10 damage, more than EB+AB. Most tier 1 enemies either don't have poison resistance or have low con that they'll fail.

Past tier 1, yeah, EB-damage will be better but the familiar is still able to contribute to battle with certain actions like Help or Scare or by trying to impose a condition on them.

[cutlery]

It isn't bad AC and if you want to not be in melee, then just take Improved Pact Weapon and used ranged attacks.



And be markedly worse than just if you had used eldritch blast.

If a player really wants the aesthetic of using a bow, great. If a player cares enough about their damage output to look, no.



And you're missing the larger point about comparing to bladesinger - a bladesinger isn't that great at melee. That a blade pact warlock is about as good isn't a gold star.

EB/AB is much more effective in combat, even if the warlock puts their other invocations into melee and takes the blade pact; at minimal cost.

Yes, a warlock can pretend that eldritch blast isn't there, but that doesn't make their melee capability that great.

[Asisreo1]

So, not great, and without cunning action to get out of there.

Rogues get Cunning Action, Warlocks get Expeditious Retreat, if they so choose. Meaning they can also disengage/dodge and dash on the same turn. Does it use a resource? Yes. It's fine, though. What matters is you're out. You also get your invocations by now, which means you can cast fiendish vigor and armor of shadows at-will, softening the blow by giving you more HP and more AC than a rogue.

[cutlery]

Rogues get Cunning Action, Warlocks get Expeditious Retreat, if they so choose. Meaning they can also disengage/dodge and dash on the same turn. Does it use a resource? Yes. It's fine, though. What matters is you're out. You also get your invocations by now, which means you can cast fiendish vigor and armor of shadows at-will, softening the blow by giving you more HP and more AC than a rogue.

at, say, level 7 that's three invocations (armor of shadows, false life, thirsting blade), and one of only two slots for an escape. FWIW, Expeditious retreat does not give you a disengage, so if you use ER to dash, you're getting an opportunity attack - unless you also use your action to disengage, which you could do anyway and move, no ER required, but no damage applied, either. ER won't let you disengage and use an action in the same turn.

Misty step will let you escape as a bonus action, though - once, and still costs a slot.

[Dork_Forge]

Let's take an imp, for example. Assuming tier 1 play, Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast does 8.5(1d10+3) damage with a +5 to-hit, this goes up to 9.5 and +6 at the last level of tier 1.

Imp does 1d4+3+3d6 on a failed save with a +6 to hit. That's 16 damage, nearly double with no invocation.

Let's assume they save (or resist). That's still about 10 damage, more than EB+AB. Most tier 1 enemies either don't have poison resistance or have low con that they'll fail.

Past tier 1, yeah, EB-damage will be better but the familiar is still able to contribute to battle with certain actions like Help or Scare or by trying to impose a condition on them.

The Imp has a +5 to hit, seeing as the DC is 11 a creature doesn't need a good Con to have a greater than 50% of saving. You can certainly use your Imp this way, and it will promptly be killed by whatever you're attacking (its resistances help, but it's never going to alst long as an active combatant).


And be markedly worse than just if you had used eldritch blast.

Markedy worse... how? Let's do level 5 assuming bumping Cha and Dex to +4 at 4th respectively:

EB/AB: 2d10+8=19

Improved longbow: 2d8+10=19

The longbow also has higher accuracy to hit and if you want you have the option of throwing a smite down on top of it (second attack obviously, don't want to put yourself at disadvantage).


If a player really wants the aesthetic of using a bow, great. If a player cares enough about their damage output to look, no.

You made a false assumption about damage because people say EB/AB is so good.



And you're missing the larger point about comparing to bladesinger - a bladesinger isn't that great at melee. That a blade pact warlock is about as good isn't a gold star.

What? I don't think I'm missing anything, I think your comparison didn't look as favourable as you thought it did and you made a mistake about Song of Defense.

I would rate Bladelocks above Bladesingers in overall melee capability. Before Xanathar's they held their own in comparison to the martial classes and they still do but with more options.


EB/AB is much more effective in combat, even if the warlock puts their other invocations into melee and takes the blade pact; at minimal cost.

More effective... at what damage? Because a Rapier looks just like that longbow calc up there ^, you know when the damage came out the same assuming hits but with greater accuracy? That's not even considering other things that can be leveraged, like AoA and Cloak of Flies.


Yes, a warlock can pretend that eldritch blast isn't there, but that doesn't make their melee capability that great.

I'll say compared to what again, because it's melee can certainly stand up to EB/AB.

This may change once the 3rd beam comes online, but that's also 11th level.

[Asisreo1]

at, say, level 7 that's three invocations (armor of shadows, false life, thirsting blade), and one of only two slots for an escape. FWIW, Expeditious retreat does not give you a disengage, so if you use ER to dash, you're getting an opportunity attack - unless you also use your action to disengage, which you could do anyway and move, no ER required, but no damage applied, either. ER won't let you disengage and use an action in the same turn.

Misty step will let you escape as a bonus action, though - once, and still costs a slot.
The only real point for cunning action as an escape is to disengage and dash anyways. If you use your action to attack and BA to disengage, you're probably still within range to get beat up next turn anyways. Disengaging and backing up means nothing without extra distance.

CA should not be used to disengage unless you plan on dashing as your main action. With that, ER and CA are effectively the same in terms of means of escape.

Misty Step is also a good use but as you say, it's a slot for a one-time-use. It's overrated, imo, though its useful to have out-of-combat if you do have it.

[Asisreo1]

The Imp has a +5 to hit, seeing as the DC is 11 a creature doesn't need a good Con to have a greater than 50% of saving. You can certainly use your Imp this way, and it will promptly be killed by whatever you're attacking (its resistances help, but it's never going to alst long as an active combatant).

Yes, it's +5. I was thinking of Sprite.

Sure, but creatures will be failing that save. It's more damage than your baseline even if they succeed anyways so might as well.

Survivability is a non-issue at tier 1, they live just fine. If you have them attack then go invisible, attacks on them will have disadvantage. If they do get hit, most enemies at this tier are doing 5-10 damage which gets reduced to 2-5 for them.

They're unlikely to hit and unlikely to kill within 2-3 hits, much like a PC.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes, it's +5. I was thinking of Sprite.

Sure, but creatures will be failing that save. It's more damage than your baseline even if they succeed anyways so might as well.

Survivability is a non-issue at tier 1, they live just fine. If you have them attack then go invisible, attacks on them will have disadvantage. If they do get hit, most enemies at this tier are doing 5-10 damage which gets reduced to 2-5 for them.

They're unlikely to hit and unlikely to kill within 2-3 hits, much like a PC.

How are you having them attack and turn invisible in the same turn when both are actions?

Survivabilty is nothing like a PC, the Warlock has 21hp at 3rd level assuming only a +1 Con (being conservative) and a higher AC. Using an Imp in an active aggressor role will lead to it being killed, which will quickly drain your PC of gold at the levels where it's most scarce and leave you without you pact boon until you can spare an hour to resummon it.

If the invocations from Class Variants make it though I'll be totally behind this with you though, making the DC your spell save is far more attractive.


Pact of the Blade boon is not broken, so it doesn't need a fix.

Fixing the Hexblade is something thats needed though. Its OP.

Cannot agree more with this.

[Asisreo1]

How are you having them attack and turn invisible in the same turn when both are actions?

On your turn, you use the attack action to have it attack. On the familiar's turn, you use its action to turn invisible or whatever, as long as it isn't attacking.



Survivabilty is nothing like a PC, the Warlock has 21hp at 3rd level assuming only a +1 Con (being conservative) and a higher AC. Using an Imp in an active aggressor role will lead to it being killed, which will quickly drain your PC of gold at the levels where it's most scarce and leave you without you pact boon until you can spare an hour to resummon it.

Effectively, an Imp has 20 HP (damage resistance), plus its immune to the two most likely nonphysical damage types at this level (fire and posion). Again, invisibility should be good enough to compensate for lack of AC.

[Segev]

Pact of the Blade boon is not broken, so it doesn't need a fix.

Fixing the Hexblade is something thats needed though. Its OP.

I agree on the Hexblade (as evidenced by my own efforts to turn it into a not-a-Patron), though I can sympathize with the notion that PotB is underwhelming. In a low-magic-items game, the fact it's a magic weapon is worth something, but that's situational and hard to predict at level 3. A fighter is also proficient with any weapon he wants. The ability to banish it and resummon it is cute, but nothing the EK doesn't also get. "A weapon with almost no special properties that you don't spend gp on" is not much of a class feature. And even if you do find a cool magic weapon, you give up all the flexibility of your pact blade to make the magic weapon your pact weapon. Want that +1 long sword? Well, now you can't have a spear, glaive, quarterstaff, mace, or dagger anymore.

I'm not going to go so far as to say it does nothing. But it could use just a little tweaking, in my opinion.

[cutlery]

Markedy worse... how? Let's do level 5 assuming bumping Cha and Dex to +4 at 4th respectively:

EB/AB: 2d10+8=19

Improved longbow: 2d8+10=19
.

If you never leave Tier 2, it's still two invocations to keep up with a cantrip+invocation; and more MAD than eldritch blast.

If you leave Tier 2; hex makes it outpace it neatly, even when lifedrinker comes online, and then you are three invocations deep just to do less damage at range.

If that doesn't meet your criteria of markedly worse, then let us agree to disagree.


Pact of the Blade boon is not broken, so it doesn't need a fix.

Fixing the Hexblade is something thats needed though. Its OP.




Pact of the blade isn't broken when EB/AB is in the warlock's back pocket.

Pact of the blade without that fallback is very lackluster.

[GalvanicFour64]

If you never leave Tier 2, it's still two invocations to keep up with a cantrip+invocation; and more MAD than eldritch blast.

If you leave Tier 2; hex makes it outpace it neatly, even when lifedrinker comes online, and then you are three invocations deep just to do less damage at range.

If that doesn't meet your criteria of markedly worse, then let us agree to disagree.






Pact of the blade isn't broken when EB/AB is in the warlock's back pocket.

Pact of the blade without that fallback is very lackluster.

It shouldn’t have to be a fallback tho, the point is Customisation, EB+AB shouldn’t be a must

[GalvanicFour64]

Pact of the Blade boon is not broken, so it doesn't need a fix.

Fixing the Hexblade is something thats needed though. Its OP.

What makes you think it’s not broken?

[Dork_Forge]

On your turn, you use the attack action to have it attack. On the familiar's turn, you use its action to turn invisible or whatever, as long as it isn't attacking.


Effectively, an Imp has 20 HP (damage resistance), plus its immune to the two most likely nonphysical damage types at this level (fire and posion). Again, invisibility should be good enough to compensate for lack of AC.

So as long as the Familiar goes after you and no monsters go between you then?





If you never leave Tier 2, it's still two invocations to keep up with a cantrip+invocation; and more MAD than eldritch blast.

If you leave Tier 2; hex makes it outpace it neatly, even when lifedrinker comes online, and then you are three invocations deep just to do less damage at range.

If that doesn't meet your criteria of markedly worse, then let us agree to disagree.


So what if it's two invocations? They're there to be spent on how you want to play, if you want to play a Warlock in melee then it doesn't matter if you're spending them for that purpose. You also get far more invocations than you get cantrips, you seem to think a cantrip+invocation is a significantly lower cost.

It's more MAD but if you've chosen to play this way then that just means that your Cha will probably be sticking around +3 whilst ideally your Dex goes to +5. Giving the Bladelock a higher AC, Initiative and Dex save/skills than the EB/AB machine, that seems like a fair trade off since the EB/AB need Dex anyway...

What happens when someone closes on you with EB? What are you going to do then? The using a bow thing I think would be mostly for flavour, though I'm including it to show that the Bladelock is still more than competent at range. In melee in tier 2 vs EB/AB:

Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 17 ASIs: Dex +2 Dex +2 EA (Cha +1)

EB/AB+Hex= (1d10+5+1d6)*3=42

Melee Bladelock (Improved short sword, life drinker, shadowblade offhand): (1d6+5+4+1)*2+4d8=45

So more on average damage, higher accuracy and bigger crits for Elven Accuracy to exploit through Shadow Blade, compared to the EB/AB build.

Maybe my maths is wrong here... weren't we meant to see the EB/AB Warlock go storming ahead on damage? Let's look at some positives for the Bladelock though, shall we?

-Far easier to gain advantage on the attack (Built into Shadow Blade, prone etc.)

-The option to capitalise on something like Cloak of Flies for another 4 damage each round, poison damage but depending on the enemy could be worth something

-The option of smiting for another 6d8 (27) Force damage and prone, which can give you and other martials advantage and help lock down enemies up to Huge.

But hey, maybe that'll change in tier 4 when the final beam is unlocked, though at that point barely anyone is playing and most of the game has gone by.

You don't need Eldritch Blast as a Warlock to do capable damage.

[Amechra]

OK, I feel like I'm shouting into the wind here...

Starting Assumptions
I'm going to assume that a "normal" EB/AB Warlock is going to start off with 14 Dex, 14 Con, and 16 Cha, and that a Bladelock will start with a 14 Cha, 14 Con, and 16 Dex or Str. The Bladelock will focus on picking up spells and invocations that don't care about Charisma (which covers a lot of the buffs and utility on the Warlock list) - we're building them as a straightforward melee combatant.

This just focuses on offense, because I want to give some evidence for my reasoning that Bladelocks are fully capable of dishing out good damage in comparison to an EB/AB user. The numbers given are before adjusting for accuracy, because that brings in questions like "what's the target's AC?" or "what if you have advantage?". I will say it now - unless you make some very specific build choices, a single-classed Bladelock is going to have miserable AC.

I'm cheating a little bit with the TWF and PAM numbers. Their damage is considerably lower on the turns where they have to spend a bonus action on moving Hex or turning on their lightsaber made of darkness, but their damage when "ready" is good enough that it wouldn't be embarrassing to use those particular fighting styles. Plus I'm lazy, and this post has already taken me over an hour, so...

I've also left out stuff like magic weapons or Rods of the Pact Keeper, so my damage calculations for the Bladelocks are probably a little lower than they should actually be.

Tier 1

Level 3:
The EB/AB user has spent a cantrip and an invocation to be able to make a 1d10+Cha attack as their action (4-13 [avg. 8.5]). They can benefit from Hex (5-19 [avg. 12]).

A Bladelock has spent their Pact Boon and focused on either Strength or Dexterity instead of Charisma. They have a couple simple options that let them deal better damage than EB/AB:

Pull an Elric and use a big heavy weapon as their pact weapon, like a greatsword (5-15 [avg. 10]). They can also benefit from Hex (6-21 [avg. 13.5])
Use a short sword as their pact weapon, then dual wield (probably with a dagger). (5-13 [avg. 9]). This has solid potential with both Hex (7-25 [avg. 16] after setup) or Shadow Blade (6-25 [avg. 15.5] after setup).


At this point, the EB/AB user is down an invocation and a cantrip, while the Bladelock is down their pact boon. Hey, why not pick up a utility invocation a little bit early?

Level 4:
OK, cool, the EB/AB user dumped a +2 into their Charisma (bringing them up to 5-14 [avg. 9.5], or 6-20 [avg. 13] with Hex). Or they decided to take a utility feat - I hear that Crossbow Expert (to fire off Eldritch Blasts while in melee) and Spell Sniper (for extra range) are pretty popular.

The Bladelock has a few options, including some that just opened up this level thanks to feats:

Just dump your +2 into Dex or Str, as appropriate. This option is pretty simple, so I'm not really going to go into detail.
Pick up War Caster and pick up Booming Blade. This is great for keeping your buffs up, and you have a mini-Sentinel package thanks to your ability to smack people with BB if they try to move away from you. I won't be going into much detail with this one, because it's less straight-forward than the others.
Pick up Polearm Master (sorry) and use a Glaive as your pact weapon (5-17 [avg. 14]). It's excellent with Hex (7-29 [avg. 21]), and gives you more opportunities to smack people for trying to close with you or run away from you.


If the EB/AB user grabbed a stat increase and you didn't, your accuracy will fall behind a little bit. This is fine. Even if you took the War Caster route, you're still ahead by an invocation.

Tier 2

OK, at this point, I'm going to skip the whole level-by-level thing, because stuff starts scaling slower.

The EB/AB user is up to two blasts, and can feel smug about picking up a +2 Cha (10-28 [avg. 19]). Hex is still a pretty good choice, since now it's basically free due to the scaling (12-40 [avg. 26]). At 8th level, this is going to go up again, as they max out their Charisma (12-30 [avg. 21] without Hex, 14-42 [avg. 28] with it).

The Bladelock's ability to brag about not having to spend an invocation is over - they pick up Thirsting Blade. All of the options from Tier 1 still work:

A greatsword user is still pumping out reasonable damage (12-32 [avg. 22], 14-44 [avg. 29] with Hex). And they can happily top off their Strength at 8th level (14-34 [avg. 24], 16-46 [avg. 31] with Hex).
PAM has lost some of its unreasonable effectiveness, but it still benefits from Thirsting Blade (12-33 [avg. 22.5], 15-51 [avg. 33] with Hex). And hey, you can finally get that +2 Str at 8th level (15-36 [avg. 25.5], 18-54 [avg. 36] with Hex).
TWF kinda splits here. The version that uses Hex plus a dagger starts to fall behind (11-22 [avg. 17.5], 14-40 [avg. 28] with Hex). You cap out at 8th level with +2 Dex (13-24 [avg. 19.5], 16-42 [avg. 30] with Hex).
Off-handing a Shadow Blade is way better off, thanks to the automatic scaling (13-44 [avg. 28.5]). You get two bumps here - first when you max out your Dex at 8th (15-46 [avg. 30.5]), and again when you get 5th-level slots (16-54 [avg. 35]).


At this point, it's kinda relevant to look at magic weapons. If you're in a game without many magic items, Improved Pact Weapon lets you burn an Invocation for what is effectively an extra ASI. That's a pretty decent trade, in my mind - it's in the same "nice, but not required" bucket as Repelling Blast. In a game with more magic items, I will point out that the Rod of the Pact Keeper takes up an attunement slot, while a magic weapon doesn't.

Tier 3

Now the tears begin.

Our EB/AB user gets their next attack, because cantrip scaling be like that (18-45 [avg. 31.5], 21-63 [avg. 42] with Hex).

The Bladelock... isn't doing so well. At this point, most strategies fall behind, even with Lifedrinker in tow. In fact, given our build choices, Lifedrinker could even be considered to be a trap option - Eldritch Smite handily beats it for damage if you're only getting into a few fights per day, getting better the closer you approach to the "one fight per day" paradigm. Plus, avoiding Lifedrinker lets you spend your higher-level ASIs on the finer things in life, like Con boosts (hey, we're already assuming that the Bladelock is intentionally sticking to spells that don't call for an attack roll or save, so...).


Our greatsword user has dropped behind like a rock, even after picking up Lifedrinker (18-38 [avg. 28], 20-50 [avg. 35] with Hex). Even picking up a +2 Cha at 16th level can't save them (20-40 [avg. 30], 22-52 [avg. 37] with Hex). Good night, sweet emperor of Melniboné - mayhaps someone else will harvest those souls for Arioch.
A PAM + Lifedrinker user maxes out their Strength at 12th and can hold their own, because they're using a broken feat that should feel bad (24-45 [avg. 34.5], 27-63 [avg. 45] with Hex). A 16th level Cha boost happily pushes them further ahead (27-48 [avg. 37.5], 30-66 [avg. 48] with Hex).
Vanilla TWF stumbled, coughed, and died at the end of Tier 2, but picking up Dual Wielder (for the +1 AC and the d8 Pact Rapier) and Lifedrinker at 12th lets our Shadow Blade user stay in the game (20-60 [avg. 41]). Heck, they even get that nice little Cha bump at 16th level to look forward to (22-62 [avg. 43]).


At this point, the Eldritch Blast user has been forced to spend one cantrip and one invocation. The Bladelock has spent their pact boon and two-three invocations. This is actually slightly better than it looks like for the Bladelock - the Eldritch Blast user probably also picked up Repelling Blast, and the Bladelock probably ended up trading Improved Pact Weapon (if they took it) for Eldritch Smite or Lifedrinker when they got their hands on a +2 weapon.

Tier 4

Eldritch Blast upgrades again. The EB/AB user is now one of the elite few that gets to make four attacks per action (24-60 [avg. 42], 28-84 [avg. 56] with Hex).

At this point, a Bladelock is only keeping up if they're a PAM + Lifedrinker build with at least a +2 weapon, and even then they're going to be behind until 19th level. This was expected, though - getting extra attacks is so incredibly good for your expected damage that's it's very hard to make up the difference.

What About Hexblades?

Hexblades can absolutely laugh at the EB/AB build throughout Tier 3. Before that, they're just a less MAD Bladelock build, but at 12th level... look, Lifedrinker on a PAM user is kinda gross when that PAM user was already using their Charisma for attack and damage (33-54 [avg. 43.5], 36-72 [avg. 54] with Hex). Hand them a +1 glaive, and they handily win in Tier 4 too. Hexblades. Not even once.

My Takeaways

If you're going to be a Bladelock, I'd definitely go for Dex and rock out with Shadow Blade, since your AC will be much better than the alternatives (Armor of Shadows + Dual Wielder lets you top out at AC 19). But that's just me.

More generally, the big problem I'm seeing is Lifedrinker. If you're building a non-Hexblade Bladelock, it's a pretty small damage bump - not inconsequential, just pretty small. The Paladin is adding +1d8 damage on all of their attacks (with the option for more by burning spell slots on spells and smites), while the Bladelock is adding +1d6+2 or +1d6+3 to the damage for one specific weapon against one specific enemy, with the option for more if they have a specific Invocation - it comes out to roughly the same with some careful planning. Meanwhile, the Hexblade makes that +1d6+5, which is fantastic in comparison.

Lifedrinker would actually be way more balanced if it gave you +1d6 damage instead of adding your Charisma to damage. Maybe throw on a flavorful rider (like Chill Touch's "your target can't heal until the beginning of your next turn" thing) to make it a little more interesting?

But yeah. If the Pact of the Blade needs a boost built into it at 3rd level, it should be defensive, not offensive. Defense is where Bladelocks start burning invocations on stuff like Armor of Shadows or Fiendish Vigor, or spell slots on stuff like Armor of Agathys.

[Yakk]

Hexblade EB+AB is what you compare Hexblade Bladelock to.

That sad thing that Hexblade's curse scales so well with EB blasts it is often better as a EB blaster than a melee.

At 20, with Hex and Hexblade's Curse, that is
1d10+1d6+11 (20) x 4 = 80
cost: concentration, 1/encounter curse, 1 invocation, 1 cantrip

At 20, with Hex and Hexblade's curse and PAM and Lifedrinker
1d10+1d6+16(25) x2 + 1d4+1d6+16 (22) = 72
cost: concentration, 1/encounter curse, 2 invocations, pact

Each +1 on the polearm gives you 3, so you need a +3 polearm vs +3 rod to match damage.

The rod's attunement cost a red herring; it is more than fair trade for the spell slot/day recycle and DC buff; I think any warlock would take an item that read "attune to this for +3 spell DCs and an extra spell slot/day at the cost of an action". If anything, that leans things back towards the blaster.

[jas61292]

Pact of the Blade boon is not broken, so it doesn't need a fix.

Fixing the Hexblade is something thats needed though. Its OP.

This 100%.

Honestly, if I was tasked with "fixing" pact of the blade, the only thing I would ever consider doing would be removing it all together. You can talk all you want about how Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome are better, but the fact is, those are mostly minor effects. A few cantrips or a slightly better version of a single first level spell. Yet for some reason people want an alternative to these to radically change everything about the class and make it a competent melee warrior. That simply cannot happen with a feature that minor. By removing pact of the blade altogether, perhaps people would finally give up on the generic warlock as a melee warrior.

And then, maybe we could balance the Hexblade to be more of a Valor or Swords bard like subclass that actually gives a focus on melee, without being overpowered or having random extraneous features that exist to simply try and pretend its not just a hotfix and is actually generic and designed for every pact equally.

[Dork_Forge]

snipped for length

You did a great job here but I ahve to disagree with tier 3, there's no reason to fall behind here. You also made me realise that I shouldn't have been adding Life Drinker to the Shadow Blade in my calc further upthread, but also opened my eyes to TWF for the Bladelock. So, some starting stats and ASIs for the Bladelock in question (Half Elf):

Welp this made me realise my previous calc shouldn't have applied some invocations but eh, I still hold out hope for the Bladelock in Tier 3

Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 17 ASIs: Dex +2 Dex +2 EA (Cha +1)

EB/AB+Hex= (1d10+5+1d6)*3=42

Melee Bladelock (Improved short sword, life drinker, shadowblade offhand): (1d6+5+4+1)*2+4d8=45

So more on average damage, higher accuracy and bigger crits for Elven Accuracy to exploit through Shadow Blade, compared to the EB/AB build.

Something to also consider is that it's pretty hard to improve upon EB from a pure damage perspective, there's plenty to add on for control (push, pull, slow) but once you max out Cha it's just Hex and beam improvment.

Bladelocks on the other hand have some decisions they can make for real damage boosts depending on what tiers of play they'll be in:

-Eldritch Smite can add burst damage not available to EB/AB builds, this is applicable from tier 2, but it can help push you further ahead in tier 3 and close and gap in tier 4 (if you actually go that high) since at level 10+ an Eldritch Smite is worth an additional 27 force damage and the prone condition for advantage on your other attacks. Elven Accuracy lets you exploit the prone condition very well whilst also making crits more likely in general if you're more inclined to Smite on a crit.

-Since you're in melee anyway then Cloak of Flies can add a decent amount of additioanl damage (campaign dependent since it's poison).

-A single Fighter dip can net a Fighting Style, if you're not going to break out of tier 2, then you can grab Dueling for an additional 2 per hit, if you're going tier 3 and beyond then TWF can drop another 5 onto your Shadow Blade from your Dex modifier.

-For magic items, the best you're going to get for EB/AB is an accuracy boost, but +x weapons boost both damage and accuracy as well as potential damage centric items like a Flame Tongue.

Multiclassing in general looks better for a bladelock:

-Starting with Fighter you can Action Surge to further exploit your Life Drinker/ IPW/Fighting Style damage bonuses and Second Wind to offset being in melee damage. Going Battlemaster gives you a lot of control and additional dice to drop on damage. All of this keeps you keyed off of short rests, adding up for perfect synergy.

-RAW better for Str based Bladelocks, but two levels in Paladin will net a Fighting Style and Smites (with a couple first level slots to help fuel them). The casting gives some flexibility and slots to help fuel either your Smites or spells and Lay on Hands to help between combats.

[Lord Raziere]

This 100%.

Honestly, if I was tasked with "fixing" pact of the blade, the only thing I would ever consider doing would be removing it all together. You can talk all you want about how Pact of the Chain or Pact of the Tome are better, but the fact is, those are mostly minor effects. A few cantrips or a slightly better version of a single first level spell. Yet for some reason people want an alternative to these to radically change everything about the class and make it a competent melee warrior. That simply cannot happen with a feature that minor. By removing pact of the blade altogether, perhaps people would finally give up on the generic warlock as a melee warrior.

And then, maybe we could balance the Hexblade to be more of a Valor or Swords bard like subclass that actually gives a focus on melee, without being overpowered or having random extraneous features that exist to simply try and pretend its not just a hotfix and is actually generic and designed for every pact equally.

Eh.

I'd really only be okay with this if we get a Generic gish class like the Magus in exchange, because Hexblade isn't generic enough to refluff on its own and its the closest thing to what I'd consider an ideal gish.

[cutlery]

You did a great job here but I ahve to disagree with tier 3, there's no reason to fall behind here. You also made me realise that I shouldn't have been adding Life Drinker to the Shadow Blade in my calc further upthread, but also opened my eyes to TWF for the Bladelock. So, some starting stats and ASIs for the Bladelock in question (Half Elf):

Welp this made me realise my previous calc shouldn't have applied some invocations but eh, I still hold out hope for the Bladelock in Tier 3

Str 8 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 17 ASIs: Dex +2 Dex +2 EA (Cha +1)

EB/AB+Hex= (1d10+5+1d6)*3=42

Melee Bladelock (Improved short sword, life drinker, shadowblade offhand): (1d6+5+4+1)*2+4d8=45

So more on average damage, higher accuracy and bigger crits for Elven Accuracy to exploit through Shadow Blade, compared to the EB/AB build.



SB has a few moments, but it obviously doesn't work with hex warrior, Thirsting blade, lifedrinker, or improved pact weapon.

Not the best use of concentration. Great for a bladesinger, though, who is likely attacking with dex anyway, and gets to add song of victory, too.

Shadowblade is a poor choice for a spell known for a blade pact warlock.





Something to also consider is that it's pretty hard to improve upon EB from a pure damage perspective, there's plenty to add on for control (push, pull, slow) but once you max out Cha it's just Hex and beam improvment.



Hex and Hexblade's curse, if you want, for up to 14 (hex) and 24 (curse) additional per cast of EB.

[Amechra]

It seems like I can't post anything lately without people finding issues with it. I'm losing my edge. :smallbiggrin:


Hexblade EB+AB is what you compare Hexblade Bladelock to.

[SNIP]

Each +1 on the polearm gives you 3, so you need a +3 polearm vs +3 rod to match damage.

The rod's attunement cost a red herring; it is more than fair trade for the spell slot/day recycle and DC buff; I think any warlock would take an item that read "attune to this for +3 spell DCs and an extra spell slot/day at the cost of an action". If anything, that leans things back towards the blaster.

This is all fair - I only mentioned the Hexblade in order to point out one of the many, many reasons why it's a mistake, and how skewed things get if you make a build that wasn't initially designed to be SAD SAD. Like, imagine if the Barbarian got a feature at higher levels that was just "add your Strength modifier to damage" - that isn't a feature that's likely to see print, because it's effectively just "you get +5 damage". Or if you had a Rogue subclass that let you add your Dexterity to your attack rolls the way that Devotion Paladins let you add your Charisma - it's just too easy.

I'll repeat it until I'm blue in the face: Adding the "you can use Cha instead of Dex/Str" feature from Hex Warrior to Pact of the Blade does not fix the issues with Bladelocks. If anything, it actually hurts the Bladelock, since having a high Charisma pushes you towards taking Eldritch Blast (since, hey, it's a potent back-up option), which in-turn pushes you to pick up Agonizing Blast. And then invocations like Grasp of Hadar and Repelling Blast start looking really good as well. And we're back to everyone complaining that "Bladelocks take up way too many invocations" and "Well, I was playing a Bladelock, but then I ended up just pinging people with Eldritch Blast from the back line". And you're still just as squishy as you were when you started.

Meanwhile, giving them proficiency in Medium Armor and Shields helps address their squishiness issues (because at least your AC will be decent). And, at the same time, it reduces the chance that you'll be directly comparing your Pact Weapon and your Eldritch Blast on the same character. And, heck, even if you do end up deciding to ignore the weapon and go with maxing out Eldritch Blast, you'll still have something to show for your Pact Boon. As far as I'm concerned, it's obviously the better solution.

And you're perfectly correct vis-a-vis the rod - I was mostly pointing out the distinction because, while the Rod is really great, it still has that opportunity cost. I probably shouldn't have mentioned it, because it honestly wasn't a very important point, and might have mislead someone.


You did a great job here but I ahve to disagree with tier 3, there's no reason to fall behind here. You also made me realise that I shouldn't have been adding Life Drinker to the Shadow Blade in my calc further upthread, but also opened my eyes to TWF for the Bladelock.

Sorry that it was so long. And it's entirely fair to disagree with my Tier 3 numbers - I admit that I left out stuff like magic weapons and heavy optimization, because I wanted to point out how relatively straightforward it would be to build a straight Bladelock that can keep up with an EB/AB build without having to dump all of your Invocations/feats/whatever into it. You also probably noticed that I picked a less-than-optimal array - the Bladelock in my post is closer to what you'd get if you started from the Standard array and went with Dragonborn or Goblin instead of Half-Elf (or the like).

And I'm glad that I've turned someone else onto the fact that you can off-hand a Shadow Blade. It's one of the few ways to make TWF worth it at higher levels, and Warlocks are one of the classes that can use it the best (because the opportunity cost to upcast it is greatly reduced when you only have higher-level slots). And who could say no to some actually-effective TWF?


So, some starting stats and ASIs for the Bladelock in question (Half Elf):

[SNIP]

So more on average damage, higher accuracy and bigger crits for Elven Accuracy to exploit through Shadow Blade, compared to the EB/AB build.

Remember that my comparison was between an EB/AB build and a Bladelock build that put minimal effort into optimizing their damage, because part of the impetus for my wall of text was the insistence from some people that Bladelocks are just plain worse than an Eldritch Blast build, without any references to level ranges or benchmarks.

It isn't my fault that Eldritch Blast's optimization floor is so close to its optimization ceiling. So I wanted to show that you can make a pretty decent Bladelock while putting in a similar amount of effort (AKA "I tossed an invocation or two at it, then did other things").


Something to also consider is that it's pretty hard to improve upon EB from a pure damage perspective, there's plenty to add on for control (push, pull, slow) but once you max out Cha it's just Hex and beam improvment.

Bladelocks on the other hand have some decisions they can make for real damage boosts depending on what tiers of play they'll be in:

[SNIP]

Ah, I see, you're looking at using the prone from Eldritch Smite for your crit-fishing.

Cloak of Flies is pretty good if you're running around with higher stats in general - I skipped over it because it'd be 2-3 bonus damage per round with the stats I listed, and you'd probably be better off picking up a utility invocation at that point. I'll be honest - Cloak of Flies and Maddening Hex don't really wow me. Though, come to think of it, Relentless Hex might be nice for a Bladelock... though it does come online a little late.


Multiclassing in general looks better for a bladelock:

[SNIP]

I was intentionally leaving out multiclassing, because then people could argue that Bladelocks "need" to multiclass to be good at what they do. I will admit that having access to a fighting style would really help the comparisons - especially if you picked up Two-Weapon Fighting for the Shadow Blade build, since it'd more-or-less let you keep up with the PAM build until Tier 4, and because it'd let the "off-hand a dagger with Hex" builds survive into Tier 3.

EDIT:


SB has a few moments, but it obviously doesn't work with hex warrior, Thirsting blade, lifedrinker, or improved pact weapon.

Not the best use of concentration. Great for a bladesinger, though, who is likely attacking with dex anyway, and gets to add song of victory, too.

Shadowblade is a poor choice for a spell known for a blade pact warlock.

And yet, in a Hexblade-free world, off-handing a Shadow Blade handily keeps up with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex damage until Tier 3 with minimal optimization, without even taking Improved Pact Weapon into account. Come on, I spent, like, two hours doing the math there. :smalltongue:

(And before you go "but we aren't in a Hexblade-free world", that's because we're in one of the bad timelines. I can dream of a better world than this one, dang it!)

[Dork_Forge]

SB has a few moments, but it obviously doesn't work with hex warrior, Thirsting blade, lifedrinker, or improved pact weapon.

Not the best use of concentration. Great for a bladesinger, though, who is likely attacking with dex anyway, and gets to add song of victory, too.

Shadowblade is a poor choice for a spell known for a blade pact warlock.

I realised after and corrected the reply to you with an accurate version, still beating out EB/AB.

I'm not sure why you consider a chunk of damage a poor use of concentration, the Dex argument is redundant as I showed you a Dex build and Song of Victory doesn't come online until 14th level. I like Bladesingers but you're really stretching for this to be a clear win for them.

...Are you going to say why it's apparently a bad choice of spell known?



Hex and Hexblade's curse, if you want, for up to 14 (hex) and 24 (curse) additional per cast of EB.

I left out Hexblade because it's eroneous and I don't like it, proving that you can keep up with EB/AB with any old patron. If you do HBC though I'm not understanding what you're looking to achieve, you can just compare it to a (still Dex based) Hexblade Bladelock, they can still proc that additional damage up to 3 times and can proc it more times in tiers 1 and 2 than an EB/AB can. Then there's the enhanced crit range favouring Bladelocks since you can drop a Smite on a crit and have a higher chance of critting with your Shadow Blade.

Though I will remind you HBC is one target, once per short rest and if you're using Hex will take two rounds for your damage to come online. Good for boss fights and low number high hp encounters, but come on, such a limited ability is hardly something to rave about as a baseline, regardless of it applying better on the Bladelock.




Sorry that it was so long. And it's entirely fair to disagree with my Tier 3 numbers - I admit that I left out stuff like magic weapons and heavy optimization, because I wanted to point out how relatively straightforward it would be to build a straight Bladelock that can keep up with an EB/AB build without having to dump all of your Invocations/feats/whatever into it. You also probably noticed that I picked a less-than-optimal array - the Bladelock in my post is closer to what you'd get if you started from the Standard array and went with Dragonborn or Goblin instead of Half-Elf (or the like).

And I'm glad that I've turned someone else onto the fact that you can off-hand a Shadow Blade. It's one of the few ways to make TWF worth it at higher levels, and Warlocks are one of the classes that can use it the best (because the opportunity cost to upcast it is greatly reduced when you only have higher-level slots). And who could say no to some actually-effective TWF?

No need to apologise it was a good read and TWF holds a special place in my heart. I want to clarify though, I didn't want to correct you, I wanted my post to be supplementary to your own, not in opposition.


Remember that my comparison was between an EB/AB build and a Bladelock build that put minimal effort into optimizing their damage, because part of the impetus for my wall of text was the insistence from some people that Bladelocks are just plain worse than an Eldritch Blast build, without any references to level ranges or benchmarks.

It isn't my fault that Eldritch Blast's optimization floor is so close to its optimization ceiling. So I wanted to show that you can make a pretty decent Bladelock while putting in a similar amount of effort (AKA "I tossed an invocation or two at it, then did other things").

And you did a great job of it, imo the EB/AB must have mentality is detrimental to Warlock play overall, not enhancing it. That's because it comes across as mandatory and if you're not doing it you're subpar, when people may enjoy playing something now so... I'll be honest boring for the most part.


Ah, I see, you're looking at using the prone from Eldritch Smite for your crit-fishing.

It's a happy accident, I figured that I could squeeze EA into the build at a decent point in the overall breakdown whilst boosting Cha and thought why not. The extra crit fishing on an upcast Shadow Blade sure is nice though...


Cloak of Flies is pretty good if you're running around with higher stats in general - I skipped over it because it'd be 2-3 bonus damage per round with the stats I listed, and you'd probably be better off picking up a utility invocation at that point. I'll be honest - Cloak of Flies and Maddening Hex don't really wow me. Though, come to think of it, Relentless Hex might be nice for a Bladelock... though it does come online a little late.

Cloak of Flies is highly campaign specific, but having used it in some pvp scenarios it's actually a nice deterrent for forcing enemies away from you for OA or adding a little extra punishment for staying in close (not bad for mook erosion either).


I was intentionally leaving out multiclassing, because then people could argue that Bladelocks "need" to multiclass to be good at what they do. I will admit that having access to a fighting style would really help the comparisons - especially if you picked up Two-Weapon Fighting for the Shadow Blade build, since it'd more-or-less let you keep up with the PAM build until Tier 4, and because it'd let the "off-hand a dagger with Hex" builds survive into Tier 3.

Yeah I was really looking to add an expanded look, partially to show potential and partially to highlight the limits of an EB/AB Warlock. The optimisation ceiling for that is so low it removes a lot of the fun from it unless you can count on a Druid casting Spike Growth so you can rake people through it.

[cutlery]

And yet, in a Hexblade-free world, off-handing a Shadow Blade handily keeps up with Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast + Hex damage until Tier 3 with minimal optimization, without even taking Improved Pact Weapon into account. Come on, I spent, like, two hours doing the math there. :smalltongue:

(And before you go "but we aren't in a Hexblade-free world", that's because we're in one of the bad timelines. I can dream of a better world than this one, dang it!)

Two problems with that; (1) you're intentionally making your pact weapon a light finesse weapon which sucks when you're out of slots, and (2) you've only got a minute of shadow blade per slot. You also aren't attacking with that pact weapon on any turn when you've lost shadow blade. You will lose concentration on shadow blade.

Shadowblade and then specifically picking a pact weapon to offhand it is probably more complicated than just picking a greatsword and taking blade invocations.


So, I don't think it is a simple a build and setup task as eb+ab (and sometimes remembering hex).


FWIW, using hex and a greatsword also lets you switch between melee and ranged modes in the same encounter as soon as a target with hex dies, if you wish. With shadow blade.... you can throw it, I guess, then expend a bonus action next turn to call it back.



I realised after and corrected the reply to you with an accurate version, still beating out EB/AB.

I'm not sure why you consider a chunk of damage a poor use of concentration,



See above. No slots or broken concentration leaves you with a poor weapon; and one you had better have spent blade invocations on or you're back to EB spam, anyway.

Losing shadowblade is a much bigger deal than losing hex (or something like faerie fire). And, before you suggest war caster or resilient:con or a fighter dip for it; the EB/AB spammer doesn't need those, nor is a greatsword wielding bladelock in such dire straits when concentration is broken.

If you do rely on feats, you could toss PAM/GWM in the equation and use a glaive as your pact weapon and have an all day every day use for a bonus action that gains lifedrinker. As with SB, you could use concentration for a source of advantage (Shadow of Moil; Darkness, etc).

Not relying on dual wielding also keeps your bonus action free for other, more interesting things - like crown of stars at 13th or misty step or hex applications (or hexblade curse applications), or relentless or maddening hex.


Anyway, SB is using concentration for around 4.5-9 more points of damage with one swing, with a lackluster pact weapon at all other times. That's with a 5th level slot, and you could instead use that slot and that concentration to cast something like Phantasmal Killer or Negative Energy Flood or Shadow of Moil (which synergizes well with GWM) or Danse Macabre.

SB drops off in terms of damage advantage once lifedrinker is on the table, anyway; 18+mod + 1d6+mod+mod vs 4d6+modx4; with two doses of hex each time. 36.5 + hex vs 34 + hex.

If you think a best case damage increase of 2.5 per round is worth the concentration slot and bonus action - ok? You're gonna lose that concentration, though, and thats going to suck, especially if you're out of slots.


Edit: Only... it's only a 2.5 damage increase if you gain the two weapon fighting style somehow. Without it, you're managing 31.5 with a level 5 SB and a lifedrinker pact blade offhand (32.5 if improved pact weapon). You're managing 34 with a greatsword pact weapon, 36 if improved pact weapon.

Shadow Blade is a great spell, but not for blade warlocks.

[Segev]

I see shadow blade mentioned as a good fish choice for Warlocks. I can’t help but feel like it is actually pretty bad: with only two spells per short rest, it’s essentially consuming all their spell slots, and it isn’t a pact weapon so can’t be used twice in a round. (I can see it’s appeal for an Eldritch Knight, though.)

I propose the following:

Black Blade
Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade
You learn the Shadow Blade spell, which does not count against the number of pact magic spells you know. You may cast it normally by expending a spell slot, or at its base level without expending a spell slot.

You may also take Shadow Blade as a Mystic Arcanum. If you do, when you cast it from that feature or when using a pact magic spell slot, it is upcast to the level of mystic arcanum you learned it as.

(So taking it as the 7th level or higher mystic arcanum spell makes it get 5d8 when cast as a mystic arcanum or from a pact magic spell slot.)

[Dork_Forge]

Two problems with that; (1) you're intentionally making your pact weapon a light finesse weapon which sucks when you're out of slots, and (2) you've only got a minute of shadow blade per slot. You also aren't attacking with that pact weapon on any turn when you've lost shadow blade. You will lose concentration on shadow blade.

If you're out of slots between combats you can just swap your short sword/scimitar into a Rapier. What are you talking about you won't be attacking with your pact weapon if you lose concentration? Recasting Shadow Blade is a bonus action, there's nothing stopping you getting your normal two pact weapon attacks.


Shadowblade and then specifically picking a pact weapon to offhand it is probably more complicated than just picking a greatsword and taking blade invocations.

And worse damage.


So, I don't think it is a simple a build and setup task as eb+ab (and sometimes remembering hex).

As simple? No, but higher optimisation ceiling and more damage so...


FWIW, using hex and a greatsword also lets you switch between melee and ranged modes in the same encounter as soon as a target with hex dies, if you wish. With shadow blade.... you can throw it, I guess, then expend a bonus action next turn to call it back.

What is your point here? Switching to EB as the grestsword user?



See above. No slots or broken concentration leaves you with a poor weapon; and one you had better have spent blade invocations on or you're back to EB spam, anyway.

A +1 weapon is not a poor weapon, I listed a bunch of invocations to support the pact weapon as well, why wouldn't you be taking them? You realise no slots and/or a broken concentration loses Hex and makes you EB damage plummet too right?


Losing shadowblade is a much bigger deal than losing hex (or something like faerie fire). And, before you suggest war caster or resilient:con or a fighter dip for it; the EB/AB spammer doesn't need those, nor is a greatsword wielding bladelock in such dire straits when concentration is broken.

I wasn't going to suggest those things,but why is it such a terrible thing to lose concentration on Shadow Blade? You're acting like it's Haste or something, there's no dire straits here.


If you do rely on feats, you could toss PAM/GWM in the equation and use a glaive as your pact weapon and have an all day every day use for a bonus action that gains lifedrinker. As with SB, you could use concentration for a source of advantage (Shadow of Moil; Darkness, etc).

And be stuck with Strength as your primary, require feats on a normal ASI chassis.


Not relying on dual wielding also keeps your bonus action free for other, more interesting things - like crown of stars at 13th or misty step or hex applications (or hexblade curse applications), or relentless or maddening hex.

Misty Step is not a consistent use, if you need to teleport out, you can just not bonus attack that round and teleport out. Crown of Stars is a ranged attack so doesn't gel with running into melee and maddening hex is only useful if you're fighitng clustered together groups and dump damage on your turn to use Hex instead of Shadow Blade.


Anyway, SB is using concentration for around 4.5-9 more points of damage with one swing, with a lackluster pact weapon at all other times. That's with a 5th level slot, and you could instead use that slot and that concentration to cast something like Phantasmal Killer or Negative Energy Flood or Shadow of Moil (which synergizes well with GWM) or Danse Macabre.

So you mean a bunch of action spells that have nothing to do with being a Bladelock? You're changing the argument now, the point was that Bladelocks can not only keep up with EB/AB spam, but exceed them.


SB drops off in terms of damage advantage once lifedrinker is on the table, anyway; 18+mod + 1d6+mod+mod vs 4d6+modx4; with two doses of hex each time. 36.5 + hex vs 34 + hex.

No, it doesn't drop off, Life Drinker applies to your two main attacks just fine, Shadow Blade is still gravy. The only way you'd get more out of Life Drinker is with something like PAM which you'd lose damage on the bonus attack and reduce your damage types, potentially lose some advantage and get smaller crit opportunities.


If you think a best case damage increase of 2.5 per round is worth the concentration slot and bonus action - ok? You're gonna lose that concentration, though, and thats going to suck, especially if you're out of slots.

Why on earth do you keep saying about running out of slots? Tier 3 is 3 slots per short rest, if concentration is actually a concern then yes you certainly can take Warcaster or Res:con. Losing Concentration is not guaranteed especially since a tier 3 Warlock has a lot of options available for temp hp.


Edit: Only... it's only a 2.5 damage increase if you gain the two weapon fighting style somehow. Without it, you're managing 31.5 with a level 5 SB and a lifedrinker pact blade offhand (32.5 if improved pact weapon). You're managing 34 with a greatsword pact weapon, 36 if improved pact weapon.

I've gone through the maths quite clearly, with no assumption of a fighting style whatsoever. I even covered multiclass options (inc. fighting styles) that increase damage further in my reply to Amechra.


Shadow Blade is a great spell, but not for blade warlocks.

THe numbers appear to disagree


I see shadow blade mentioned as a good fish choice for Warlocks. I can’t help but feel like it is actually pretty bad: with only two spells per short rest, it’s essentially consuming all their spell slots, and it isn’t a pact weapon so can’t be used twice in a round. (I can see it’s appeal for an Eldritch Knight, though.)

I propose the following:

Black Blade
Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade
You learn the Shadow Blade spell, which does not count against the number of pact magic spells you know. You may cast it normally by expending a spell slot, or at its base level without expending a spell slot.

You may also take Shadow Blade as a Mystic Arcanum. If you do, when you cast it from that feature or when using a pact magic spell slot, it is upcast to the level of mystic arcanum you learned it as.

(So taking it as the 7th level or higher mystic arcanum spell makes it get 5d8 when cast as a mystic arcanum or from a pact magic spell slot.)

I like this.

[KorvinStarmast]

Allow me to introduce Pact of the Chain.

The pact boon that grants the warlock magic resistance at level 3 for the majority of their time.
Nope. The only time a pseudo dragon grants magic resistance as a familiar is the variant familiar from the MM, which is an NPC under DM control. You will not find the text in PHB Chain that has it provide that magic resistance as a familiar. (I'll check SAC to see if they spelled this out finally after a lot of tweets on the topic) But it would be kind of cool.
EDIT: detailed reasoning is here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/73735/22566) and also here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/101217/22566).

The Sprite is the superior scout since it can not only go invisible but can also read people's emotions while invisible (it can also help see for you while invisible, casting spells like silent image or hex). It's a great scout.

Pact of the Blade boon is not broken, so it doesn't need a fix.
Fixing the Hexblade is something thats needed though. Its OP. Hexblade exists because Pact of Blade lacked ... something. (Armor Class, among other things). Hex blade didn't resolve that, and I agree with its impact as OP/bad fix.

I'm not going to go so far as to say it does nothing. But it could use just a little tweaking, in my opinion. Yes, PoTB could use a small tweak.

Pact of the blade isn't broken when EB/AB is in the warlock's back pocket.

Pact of the blade without that fallback is very lackluster. Yes. I think it could use a summons. :smallbiggrin: Some shadowy creature like the Shadow Sorcerer gets at level 6. Oh, wait, did they do that already for Hexblade ... :smalltongue:

This 100%.

Honestly, if I was tasked with "fixing" pact of the blade, the only thing I would ever consider doing would be removing it all together. If we want to gish, play a Paladin. :smallbiggrin:

I'd really only be okay with this if we get a Generic gish class like the Magus in exchange, because Hexblade isn't generic enough to refluff on its own and its the closest thing to what I'd consider an ideal gish. Or, we can stop searching for the perfect gish since there is already blade singer, and removing the racial restrictions (I mean, WTF was that all about?) and there we go.

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Yes. I think it could use a summons. :smallbiggrin: Some shadowy creature like the Shadow Sorcerer gets at level 6. Oh, wait, did they do that already for Hexblade ... :smalltongue:


Technically, you only get to play that trick after killing a humanoid yourself (person you slay). If you won't be killing any persons for the adventuring day (or you fail to get the killing blow) it's a pretty lackluster subclass feature. Heck, even if you manage to use it, it isn't that exciting.

Well, its nice compared to the shadow sorcerers shadow hound, I guess.



If we want to gish, play a Paladin. :smallbiggrin:
Or, we can stop searching for the perfect gish since there is already blade singer, and removing the racial restrictions (I mean, WTF was that all about?) and there we go.

Paladins ain't gishes, they're paladins - aka smitemachines.

Warlockery is weird, I'll give it that; it keeps coming down to whether or not foresight is worth it (and worth getting on-time at level 17) vs multiclassing into some other two-attack martial.

Ek to 7 with warcaster and shadow blade+BB/GFB + war magic is pretty nice damage that scales well (and nets you a non-bond-specific extra attack) with the ability to freely change to other bonded weapons when you don't feel like using the slot; although every time you take a warlock level you're faced with the knowledge you could have taken wizard levels instead to get higher level slots for SB more quickly. OTOH, you can more freely select from patrons if you add some fighter first and come to peace with the MADness.

Both Hex warrior and blade pact are clunky in a game where you aren't otherwise tied to specific weapons.






THe numbers appear to disagree





No, it doesn't drop off, Life Drinker applies to your two main attacks just fine, Shadow Blade is still gravy


At 12; without hex, assuming 100% accuracy and max dex:

SB is 4d8 + 5; offhand shortsword is 1d6+5 - only +5 for lifedrinker, as you won't get your cha unless you have a fighting style.

That's 18+5 + 3.5+5, or 31.5. Lifedrinker doesn't apply to the shadowblade attack.

at 12, with a greatsword and a str of 20 (or hexblade and greatsword pact weapon and cha of 20):

2d6+10 *2, or 34.

Using no slot, and keeping concentration free, so you could still apply hex, and haven't even used a bonus action yet, so you could apply hex that round.

If you force yourself to only use dex, It's okay. But a rapier is still 29 damage, and you have concentration free for hex; so if you compare with equal use of resources, that's 36 damage for a pact rapier with hex at level 12; and you aren't stuck using your bonus action to keep up in round 2.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, its nice compared to the shadow sorcerers shadow hound, I guess. Personally, I love that shadow hound. One of my favorite things about playing a shadow sorcerer.

Paladins ain't gishes, they're paladins - aka smitemachines. With respect, warrior, caster, gish and we already have a thread where the semantic hair splitting about the term "gish" has been beaten into the ground. You don't have to agree with me, for sure, but the game already has a gish: Paladin. It has another version of a gish called Eldritch Knight.

Warlockery is weird, I'll give it that; We have an accord.

Ek to 7 with warcaster and shadow blade+BB/GFB + I think Shadow Blade is a lot better on an Arcane Trickster who can get in, SA, and disengage. Rinse and repeat.
That's my two cents on Shadow Blade.

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I think Shadow Blade is a lot better on an Arcane Trickster who can get in, SA, and disengage. Rinse and repeat.
That's my two cents on Shadow Blade.

Hell, the AT can get in and Booming Blade with SB and apply SA, then cunning action to disengage.


A bladesinger 6/AT x can do some pretty fun things with shadow blade, too. The greater hit consistency they get with two attacks almost keeps pace, but it comes a bit ahead with a decently upcast shadow blade.

[KorvinStarmast]

A bladesinger 6/AT x can do some pretty fun things with shadow blade, too. The greater hit consistency they get with two attacks almost keeps pace, but it comes a bit ahead with a decently upcast shadow blade. All the more reason to drop the racial restriction on Bladesinger. :smallcool:

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All the more reason to drop the racial restriction on Bladesinger. :smallcool:

I suspect they will in Tasha's, but with how damned many elves and half elves there are it isn't such a great restriction.

Holdover stuff from the 2e splatbook era Complete Book of Elves, when elves basically got everything.

[Dork_Forge]

At 12; without hex, assuming 100% accuracy and max dex:

SB is 4d8 + 5; offhand shortsword is 1d6+5 - only +5 for lifedrinker, as you won't get your cha unless you have a fighting style.

That's 18+5 + 3.5+5, or 31.5

at 12, with a greatsword and a str of 20 (or hexblade and greatsword pact weapon and cha of 20):

2d6+10 *2, or 34.

Using no slot, and keeping concentration free, so you could still apply hex, and haven't even used a bonus action yet, so you could apply hex that round.

If you force yourself to only use dex, It's okay. But a rapier is still 29 damage, and you have concentration free for hex; so if you compare with equal use of resources, that's 36 damage for a pact rapier with hex at level 12; and you aren't stuck using your bonus action to keep up in round 2.

What, why are you attacking with SB as the action? Main action should be two Thirsting blade attacks with an improved short short/scimitar and then bonus with the Shadow Blade:




Melee Bladelock (Improved short sword, life drinker, shadowblade offhand): (1d6+5+4+1)*2+4d8=45



Which is a darn sight better than what you are suggesting.

[KorvinStarmast]

I suspect they will in Tasha's, but with how damned many elves and half elves there are it isn't such a great restriction. That would be nice. I'd love to do a vHuman Bladesinger.

Holdover stuff from the 2e splatbook era Complete Book of Elves, when elves basically got everything. Aye. "Let's play an elf game ....."

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What, why are you attacking with SB as the action? Main action should be two Thirsting blade attacks with an improved short short/scimitar and then bonus with the Shadow Blade:



Which is a darn sight better than what you are suggesting.

Not on round one it isn’t, and if you lose concentration you are mostly shut down.

Round one planning to use hex is actually useful, and has at least the chance of remaining useful for the next fight without spending another slot.

I mean, if we are going for a one round nova, just smite with both slots and skip shadow blade entirely.

Oh, and the accuracy increase via advantage from shadow of Moil will handily beat both, and scales with high ac enemies particularly well; at least until 17 when foresight on the table.

[Dork_Forge]

Not on round one it isn’t, and if you lose concentration you are mostly shut down.

Round one planning to use hex is actually useful, and has at least the chance of remaining useful for the next fight without spending another slot.

I mean, if we are going for a one round nova, just smite with both slots and skip shadow blade entirely.

So you're only looking at the first round of damage now?

You can't smite twice in one turn, Shadow Blade is better value.

Why would you be mostly shut down by just losing concentration? Are you going to claim that the EB build is shut down by losing the 3d6 from Hex?

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So you're only looking at the first round of damage now?

You can't smite twice in one turn, Shadow Blade is better value.

Why would you be mostly shut down by just losing concentration? Are you going to claim that the EB build is shut down by losing the 3d6 from Hex?

No, I said if.

And no, EB is not shut down by losing hex, more is it as likely to lose it because it doesn’t need to be in melee.

Further, on the happy occasion where it maintains concentration to the end of the fight, it has hex to reuse later.

Losing conc as an EB blaster is a potential loss of 10.5 damage at 11th; its a loss of 18 with SB offhand attacks.

And, again, you have to be in melee range to use them.


But, more numbers (whoops, did that with prof bonus of 6; dropping it to 4 at level 12):

scimitar (or shortsword), +5 in attack stat and cha, two attacks
4d8 Shadowblade in offhand, assuming advantage from shadow blade

against AC 19: 29 dpr, after round one;
Round one: 15 DPR (can't cast shadowblade and swing it in the same turn)


greatsword (2d6+5 +5) plus hex,

against AC 19: 23 dpr.
Round one: also 23 dpr


It takes Three rounds for shadowblade offhand to catch up, and this is assuming dim light and advantage on shadow blade attacks (it takes much longer without that).


When concentration is inevitably broken;
15 DPR with pact one-hander against the same AC;
19 DPR with pact greatsword against the same AC

EB spam drops to 17 DPR with broken concentration; EB with hex is also 23 DPR, from round one.

In the case of both the greatsword and eldritch blast, you have free bonus actions; one of which might be to apply hexblade's curse in round 2; this is something a hexblade using shadowblade can use, too, but it will take many more rounds to catch up.

If you are certain you won't lose concentration, shadow blade looks pretty good. But if we bring feats into the equation GWM is on the table, and you become starved for bonus actions.

[Dork_Forge]

No, I said if.

And no, EB is not shut down by losing hex, more is it as likely to lose it because it doesn’t need to be in melee.

Further, on the happy occasion where it maintains concentration to the end of the fight, it has hex to reuse later.

Losing conc as an EB blaster is a potential loss of 10.5 damage at 11th; its a loss of 18 with SB offhand attacks.

And, again, you have to be in melee range to use them.

Yes, you said "and if you lose concentration you are mostly shut down" not if it's the first round, but whatever.

Being at ranged is a good way to keep concentration, so is having a decent Con, maybe picking up Warcaster the +2 Cha at 12 (-2 damage per round but eh). Going into combat with temp hp is also a great way, like the 12 temp hp from each rest a Celestial gets, the 5-8 temp hp from False Life, Armor of Agathys etc. Since concentration checks are half damage it's not that difficult to maintain concentration if you have some form of damage mitigation and a positive Con.

I'm not sure you ever answered this, but what is the plan when something gets within 5ft of the EBlock?

Edit: Wait did you consider losing a bonus attack as shut down? It's just lowered damage, that isn't being shut down.

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I'd call dropping to melee with just your pact shortsword as feeling pretty shut down. You have pretty much entirely built around that offhand attack, spent a precious slot on it, used a precious known spell, and spent a round setting it up.

You might even lose concentration before you even get to use it; unless you swing with it in round one (a dpr loss, unless you have dim light advantage).



I'm not sure you ever answered this, but what is the plan when something gets within 5ft of the EBlock?

Misty step 10', move another 30', followed by repelling blast EB bolts if escape is 100% required; because they aren't starved for bonus actions. Melee if they'd rather save the spell slot; for a full blaster tomelock I'll usually cast shillelagh with my first spare bonus action; add in a scagtrip if necessary.

If it's a bladelock, you're probably using grasp of hadar to pull your target to you instead of the reverse. A bladelock can EB blast just as well as any other warlock, after all.

Shadow blade just doesn't seem like a good use of a spell slot for the few damage you get out of it. I suppose if you can't think of anything better to case, but I wouldn't even learn the spell on a warlock.

[Dork_Forge]

I'd call dropping to melee with just your pact shortsword as feeling pretty shut down. You have pretty much entirely built around that offhand attack, spent a precious slot on it, used a precious known spell, and spent a round setting it up.

What are you talking about? You're built around your pact weapon, the only thing you did for SB was choose it as a spell known and cast it.

Since when is a spell known on a Warlock precious? You have 12 at 12th and Pact magic makes worthwhile choices slim pickings, personally I wouldn't have a hard time fitting it in at all.


You might even lose concentration before you even get to use it; unless you swing with it in round one (a dpr loss, unless you have dim light advantage).

True:

If you get hit

If you fail the save

If you didn't have a stack of temp hp or other countermeasure

You're pushing it like losing concentration is likely, it really isn't especially in a party where there's multiple targets to choose from not just you.



Misty step 10', move another 30', followed by repelling blast EB bolts if escape is 100% required; because they aren't starved for bonus actions. Melee if they'd rather save the spell slot; for a full blaster tomelock I'll usually cast shillelagh with my first spare bonus action; add in a scagtrip if necessary.

So SB is poor decision making but burning a 5th level slot on a non scaling 2nd level spell is a wise choice? So dropping down to two attacks with a +1 short sword with Cha added on top is being shut down, but reverting to using a basic Shilellagh isn't being shut down?


If it's a bladelock, you're probably using grasp of hadar to pull your target to you instead of the reverse. A bladelock can EB blast just as well as any other warlock, after all.

The entire point of this is that you don't need Eldritch Blast you can take it sure, but as the numbers have proved time and again, you certainly don't need it to remain competitive.



Shadow blade just doesn't seem like a good use of a spell slot for the few damage you get out of it. I suppose if you can't think of anything better to case, but I wouldn't even learn the spell on a warlock.

And you have a heavy bias to just sitting back and spamming EB, so I'm not surprised you wouldn't learn it. A 4d8 bonus action attack with a built in advantage condition is good, no matter how you slice it, it's good. Throw in Elven Accuracy as the build I suggested to you does and you're looking at a decent chance of crits too.

This is all with a straight 'lock too, as my other post shows, the optimisation ceiling for Bladelocks is far higher than this, so if it's keeping up with EB now (and it is) then it will just push further ahead.

Eldritch Blast isn't the be all, end all of Warlocks.

[Amnestic]

If you didn't have a stack of temp hp or other countermeasure


Just to interject, don't assume this is the case - sage advice indicates temp HP doesn't change how concentration works for you at all and you'd still have to roll regardless. DM mileage may vary though.

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Just to interject, don't assume this is the case - sage advice indicates temp HP doesn't change how concentration works for you at all and you'd still have to roll regardless. DM mileage may vary though.

Yep; hit is hit, temp hp or not, you ought to roll for concentration.

[Dork_Forge]

Just to interject, don't assume this is the case - sage advice indicates temp HP doesn't change how concentration works for you at all and you'd still have to roll regardless. DM mileage may vary though.

Thank you for pointing that out, I had no idea it worked like that, it's... well pretty stupid. It undermines the point of temp hp and pushes Tenser's Transformation into being a pretty crappy spell.

Good to know for when I play at other tables, however I won't be running it that way for my players.



Yep; hit is hit, temp hp or not, you ought to roll for concentration.

If you knew that then why didn't you say it in our back and forth instead of waiting for Amnestic?

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If you knew that then why didn't you say it in our back and forth instead of waiting for Amnestic?

Because it's rather obvious.

Anyway; using a spell slot, filling both hands, and using every rounds bonus action to eke out an extra 3-4 damage a round over 9 rounds (even with dim light advantage) is a much worse option than just waiting for a hit and using that slot for a 6d8 smite when you really need the damage; which incidentally averages as the same amount of damage - 27, and you choose where and when to apply it.

You clearly disagree. That's fine, but you may have found the class that gains the absolute least from using shadowblade in the game.

[Amechra]

You clearly disagree. That's fine, but you may have found the class that gains the absolute least from using shadowblade in the game.

The thing about taking Shadow Blade on a Warlock is that they have much less of an opportunity cost when it comes to upcasting it.

Most classes using Shadow Blade are going to be burning lower-level spell slots on it, because the upcasting tends to be inefficient. Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are going to be stuck with a 2d8 weapon until Tier 4, while Bladesingers have plenty of spells known and have way better things to be spending their Concentration/Spell Slots on.

Whenever a Warlock casts it, they get a weapon equivalent to the one that a Bladesinger would get if they spent their highest level spell slot on casting it (well, up until level 13, where the Wizard could choose to cast it out of their single 7th level spell slot). At the same time, there are a surprisingly small number of spells that scale well on the Warlock list, so the fact that Shadow Blade grows with you as you level up is appreciated.

---

Shadow Blade also has some advantages that I think you're glossing over:

1) Hex is cool and all... but it only applies to one enemy at a time. If you're in a situation where you have to divide your attention between multiple enemies, Hex is way less useful.
2) If you're in the kind of game where there are multiple fights per rest, or where fights tend to be longer, Shadow Blade is way more efficient than Eldritch Smite. Burning a spell slot on being able to deal 2d8-4d8 damage per bonus action for a 5-6 round fight is going to go further than dealing 6d8 damage once.
3) If you've set yourself up to crit fish, it's a meaty weapon that brings its own pretty-easy-to-achieve advantage condition. That's nothing to sneeze at.
4) Your opportunity attacks will hurt more. If you do the whole War Caster + Booming Blade thing, you'll pack a pretty big punch.
5) It gives you a distinct playstyle from a classic Warlock without horribly nerfing your damage. You know, for if you want a change of pace.

As for Concentration... I'm currently toying with a Bladelock build centered around off-handing Shadow Blade. The current plan is to start off with a single level of Draconic Sorcerer (to free up an Invocation slot, grab Con proficiency, and pick up a couple of spell slots to cast Shield from) before swapping over to Fiendlock. Will it be super-optimal? Probably not... but if I wanted that, I'd be a Hexadin.

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The thing about taking Shadow Blade on a Warlock is that they have much less of an opportunity cost when it comes to upcasting it.


While that is true, they also gain less from it than nearly anyone else - compare with Far Step or Blink, slot for slot.

A Bladesinger (at 9th) gets quite a bit from it - they get to go from 1d6 or 1d8+dex to 4d8+dex with two attacks (and are also free to take an offhand stab if they happen to have nothing else to spend a BA on; for ~3.5).

A rogue similarly gets the extra d8s, and may gain markedly from the advantage in dim light.

An Ek can attack 3 times for 4d8+mod, or twice with a dose of war magic cantrips, depending on level (this latter choice not in the first round).

The warlock might also have a decent chance of starting the encounter already concentrating on hex; and as discussed, hex is more flexible with ranged attacks when required. If pure damage is required, you can deliver about as much as an SB offhand with a smite (granted, invocation cost) with no impact to action economy, and that damage is guaranteed once you choose to use it. Back to hex, you can switch from melee and ranged and back in the same fight, re-applying it as targets expire; and hex can also be modified to allow very cool things with bonus actions.

Is shadow blade better than not spending a slot? In terms of damage output, sure; if you keep it for all nine rounds and use your BA to swing it each time (the damage edge decreases when not in dim light, also).

Is it the best use of that slot or of those bonus actions? I don't think so, in the case of the warlock. Not when smite is on the table and not when a variety of encounters are on the table, and not when the adventuring day lasts longer than five minutes.

It is a small enough increase to DPR I wouldn't even take it with a warlock, given their limited spells known; with a special caveat for non-bladepact warlocks. It's a decent boost to a one-attack-a-round warlock on top of a SCAGtrip. Though, again, I don't know if I'd find room for it in the warlock's limited spells known list for a non-bladelock.

[Dork_Forge]

Because it's rather obvious.

Anyway; using a spell slot, filling both hands, and using every rounds bonus action to eke out an extra 3-4 damage a round over 9 rounds (even with dim light advantage) is a much worse option than just waiting for a hit and using that slot for a 6d8 smite when you really need the damage; which incidentally averages as the same amount of damage - 27, and you choose where and when to apply it.

You clearly disagree. That's fine, but you may have found the class that gains the absolute least from using shadowblade in the game.

Sorry but I find that rather far fetched, you combated every point I've put across where you could see an issue with it. If it were so obvious then why would they publish a Sage Advice article including the answer?

I completely disagree, the defacto upcasting nature of pact amgic makes it a great candidate for Warlock. Since you're so convinced though, what would your 12th level spell list look like? So few precious spells after all.




While that is true, they also gain less from it than nearly anyone else - compare with Far Step or Blink, slot for slot.

Your comparison is casting Blink at 12th level? A spell that not only doesn't upcast, but takes an action to cast (with a minute duration) and whose defensive purpose you can't even really on, it's entirely random. So you've blown 33% of your resources on a terrible spell for a Warlock, or well most people unless they can afford to precast it.

Far Step is a nice spell... but entirely irrelevant since it's not a damage spell.


A Bladesinger (at 9th) gets quite a bit from it - they get to go from 1d6 or 1d8+dex to 4d8+dex with two attacks (and are also free to take an offhand stab if they happen to have nothing else to spend a BA on; for ~3.5).

A Bladesinger is worse off for melee entirely, Shadow Blade doesn't fix the Warlock having higher accuracy, a focus weapon and far higher reliable damage.


A rogue similarly gets the extra d8s, and may gain markedly from the advantage in dim light.

There is no reason why anyone would benefit from this more than anyone else, if the situation is dim light, it's dim light, a Rogues ability to hide as a BA (which I assume you're referring to) is redundant in that case.


An Ek can attack 3 times for 4d8+mod, or twice with a dose of war magic cantrips, depending on level (this latter choice not in the first round).

Yes, it works very well on an EK, though that doesn't stop it being good on a Warlock too.


The warlock might also have a decent chance of starting the encounter already concentrating on hex; and as discussed, hex is more flexible with ranged attacks when required. If pure damage is required, you can deliver about as much as an SB offhand with a smite (granted, invocation cost) with no impact to action economy, and that damage is guaranteed once you choose to use it. Back to hex, you can switch from melee and ranged and back in the same fight, re-applying it as targets expire; and hex can also be modified to allow very cool things with bonus actions.

The way Hex scales is with duration, since it starts at 1 hour and shoots to 8 hours, this is pretty terrible since you can't maintain concentration over a short rest and you're a short rest dependent class.

Hex is extremely bonus action heavy, something that you seem to be against Shadow Blade for and necrotic damage, which there seems to be quite a few monsters resistant to it. Is it likely to come up? Depends on what you're playing, for example there's necrotic resistant creatures as a potential enemy in the new adventure.

I have no idea what you mean by "can be modified to allow very cool things with bonus actions," unless you're referring to facilitating grapples but that seems off.


Is shadow blade better than not spending a slot? In terms of damage output, sure; if you keep it for all nine rounds and use your BA to swing it each time (the damage edge decreases when not in dim light, also).

Is it the best use of that slot or of those bonus actions? I don't think so, in the case of the warlock. Not when smite is on the table and not when a variety of encounters are on the table, and not when the adventuring day lasts longer than five minutes.

5 minute adventuring days are terrible for Warlocks, the longer the day the more short rests you can try to fit in (especially since Cat Nap exists).


It is a small enough increase to DPR I wouldn't even take it with a warlock, given their limited spells known; with a special caveat for non-bladepact warlocks. It's a decent boost to a one-attack-a-round warlock on top of a SCAGtrip. Though, again, I don't know if I'd find room for it in the warlock's limited spells known list for a non-bladelock.

Really curious what your spell selection looks like, since even with using SCAGtrips it's just worse on other Warlocks because they likely aren't focusing on Str or Dex to keep up with the curve.