Swimming Dive Charge Attack

[Ripptor]

Moving this out of Simple RAW for a fuller discussion of multiple rules :smallsmile:

So, I have a Mermaid Were-Scorpion that wants to do a jumping charge attack out of the water with her stinger, that counts as a Dive. The most recent Dive rules I can find, from All About Movement (Part Five) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a):


If a flyer makes a diving charge of at least 30 feet (6 squares) and also loses 10 feet of altitude or more, it can attack only with a claw or with a piercing or slashing weapon. These attacks, however, deal double damage.

My read on this is that it requires:

1) A Fly Speed (But not necessarily currently flying)
2) Charging
3) 30' forward movement
4) 10' descending movement
5) A Piercing or Slashing weapon

I did find a previous thread on Leap Attack + Diving Charge (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?274707-Leap-Attack-Diving-Charge-Possible), which concludes that a Flier can jump to meet these requirements as long as they descend at least 10' (DC 40). I also asked again in the Simple RAW thread, so I'm fairly sure the above is good, but if there's anything we're missing at this point let us know!

The more interesting part is in starting this from the water... The rules for jumping out of water are in Stormwrack:


Creatures with swim speeds use their swim speed to determine their Jump skill modifier for jumps made in water, gaining a +4 bonus for every 10 feet by which their swim speed exceeds 30 feet. If their swim speed is less than 30 feet, they take a–6 penalty for each 10 feet by which it falls short of 30 feet. For example, a creature with a swim speed of 50 feet has a +8 bonus on Jump checks made from water. Creatures without swim speeds generally can’t make jumps out of water.

Long Jump: Crossing a horizontal distance in the air requires a long jump, just as described under the Jump skill in the Player’s Handbook.

High Jump: A swimming high jump works much like the high jump described in the Jump skill description, except that there is a –10 penalty for executing this jump in water. The height you reach measures the distance you get between the water and your feet (or tail, as the case may be). If you achieve a negative result, you don’t actually get completely out of the water. For example, if your result is a –4, your jump distance is –1 foot—which means that all your body except for the last foot of your body length gets out of the water, at least for a moment.

Launch into Air: With a successful high jump that gets you entirely clear of the water (a result of 0 feet or better), you can begin flying at an elevation of 5 feet (presuming you have a fly speed).
She's looking to take the feat Flying Fish Leap that lets her ignore the -10 Jump penalty for doing so, as well as make one Jump check to simultaneously perform a Long and High jump, but only really wants to do so if we can make this work:


She has a Fly Speed (15', Avg), but will be using her Swim speed (60') to Move + Jump out of the water
She picks a target in 120' and attempts a charge
She gets a running start of 20' or more in the water
She rolls a Jump check (at +12, ignoring the -10 penalty) to jump X', ascending (X/4)' and descending (X/4)' towards the target
If X is less than the distance, she ... lands too early, and face-plants into the ground?
If X covers the distance, but (X/4) is less than 10', it's just a normal Charge
If X covers the distance, and (X/4) is at least 10', she can Dive for double Sting damage

So, as long as she can reliably succeed a DC 40 Jump check, does this sound like it works?

Thanks for reading!!

[ciopo]

minor point of order, per srd, a flying dive charge is claw and talons only http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
afaik, on savage species that is contradicted for a specifica race only, where piercing weapons are included, I don't remember the specific race.

Other than that, I don't see a problem with your breakdown, except to maybe nitpick that if going by a strict reading, you can't "arc up" as your intended movement part of the charge, since that would clash with the "must move in a straight line". I am assuming your intended target would be on a boat or something, so in a 3d enviroment they would begin at an higher elevation than you if you start underwater, jumping at them to make a dive sounds yay spectacular, but outside of the definition of a charge

I'd consider it valid anyway, because rule of cool

[Ripptor]

minor point of order, per srd, a flying dive charge is claw and talons only http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
afaik, on savage species that is contradicted for a specifica race only, where piercing weapons are included, I don't remember the specific race.

I had linked an article from WotC that had outlined that a Dive may be made with either a Slashing or Piercing weapon. Is that not considered as having precedence over the SRD? I'm unaware of the hierarchy of these...


Other than that, I don't see a problem with your breakdown, except to maybe nitpick that if going by a strict reading, you can't "arc up" as your intended movement part of the charge, since that would clash with the "must move in a straight line". I am assuming your intended target would be on a boat or something, so in a 3d enviroment they would begin at an higher elevation than you if you start underwater, jumping at them to make a dive sounds yay spectacular, but outside of the definition of a charge

I don't believe that gaining altitude ruins a charge, at least not by jumping. There are rules for both charging downhill, charging uphill, and jumping over obstacles during a charge in order to avoid things that would otherwise impede it:



If you don’t have line of sight to the opponent you want to charge at the start of your turn, you can’t charge that foe. To charge, you must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and can move up to double your speed. You must be able to reach the closest space from which you can attack the designated opponent. This movement must occur before your attack. If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, is difficult terrain, or contains a creature (not a helpless one), you can’t charge. You can’t charge if the ending space is occupied or blocked. Since you move to charge, you can’t take a 5-foot step during the same turn. You provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for your movement.

Jumping during a Charge
You can make a long jump to avoid an obstacle as part of a charge, as long as you continue to meet all other criteria for making a charge before, during, and after the jump.

Since an uphill slope is just difficult terrain, you can jump it and continue your charge, as long as you can draw a straight Line of Sight to them (and there aren't other obstacles in the way you can't jump!).


I'd consider it valid anyway, because rule of cool

I believe I'm going to just let her have at it, I don't see any reason not to yet... She's not going Leap Attack Uber-Charger (yet, anyway) so it's not going to break anything, and be pretty cool when she does pull it off!

[ciopo]

your quote wasn't with the link when I replied, we're cool on the diving charge :)

[Venger]

minor point of order, per srd, a flying dive charge is claw and talons only http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
afaik, on savage species that is contradicted for a specifica race only, where piercing weapons are included, I don't remember the specific race.
I believe you're thinking of raptorans.