Eldritch knight Build suggestions

[Syjyl4488]

Hello hive mind, currently I am playing a 4th level variant human ek in a taldorei setting. 27 point buy, plus an additional starting feat. I started with the following stats str 15, dex 13, con 16, int 13, wis 10, cha 7. I took mi as my variant feat (minor illusion n prestidigitation cantrips, find familiar spell), heavy armor master (boosted str to 16 plus dr), and observant (boosted int to 14), took bb, and ll as cantrips, exp retreat, shield, absorb elements, and protection from evil and good for 1st lvl spells. I plan on resilient dex for 6th lvl, and gwm master at 8th (wielding a greatsword), any further suggestions and how to make him an even bigger badass?

[Segev]

What is your play style? What fighting style did you take, and what do you normally do in combat? Sounds like you're leaning heavily into being a single-class fighter/wizard, with the feat selections helping you bump the magic and intellect side of things.

[GlenSmash!]

Quick question, who do you get down to a Cha 7 in point buy? Is that a Taldorei specific thing?

Anyway, it seems like a heavy armor greatsword wielder is not getting a lot out of that 13 dex. Also Resilient Dex is honesty not that great IMHO. Failing a Dex save typically results in twice as much damage, but after a while damage just isn't a big deal. Failing a save that results in a debilitation condition (could be Con, Int, Wis, Cha) is usually far worse. Heck failing a Perception check could be far worse than failing a Dex save. Instead of Resilient dex I think just boosting Strength to 18 so you have a better chance to hit, to make Strength checks and saves, and do more damage would be more broadly useful.

[MrStabby]

I would agree resilient (dex) isnt a great choice. If you are worried about losing too many HP to dex saves you might be better just using the ASI to boost Con or going S&B and using the shield master feat.

What content are you able to use?

For example I am a big fan of the UA feytouched feat on an eldritch knight.

[Syjyl4488]

Segev, I am a 2h greatsword user primarily focusing on melee, my spell selections are being geared to suit that...I will pick up some evoc magic like shatter and fireball, but I was looking for more input on Magic’s and feats I could take

[Syjyl4488]

Glen & Mrstabby, I am not currently using a shield, and I asked the dm if I could lower my cha in order to put an extra point in dex. I have been in games where dex saves were very important even outside of magical combat including initiative and the dex skills. I want him to be tough, strong, quick, and smart...I was looking for feat selection n spell advice after 8th lvl honestly

[GlenSmash!]

Outside of increasing Strength for the obvious combat benefits, the Alert feat is a good one if you are wanting to be quick and have good initiative rolls. Lucky is also very useful for a variety of situations. If skills are a big concern Prodigy might be worth looking at.

Edit: For spells, Warding Wind could be useful for control. Shadowblade unfortunately won't work with GWM but 2d8 Psychic damage is still nice, and with a higher spell slot you can get it to 3d8 later on. You can also throw it and summon it back to your hand so it's a decent medium range option.

Misty step is nice for extra mobility, Magic circle is a good upgrade from Protection From good or Evil. At 14 hast and fly are both good options.

[Segev]

Segev, I am a 2h greatsword user primarily focusing on melee, my spell selections are being geared to suit that...I will pick up some evoc magic like shatter and fireball, but I was looking for more input on Magic’s and feats I could take


Glen & Mrstabby, I am not currently using a shield, and I asked the dm if I could lower my cha in order to put an extra point in dex. I have been in games where dex saves were very important even outside of magical combat including initiative and the dex skills. I want him to be tough, strong, quick, and smart...I was looking for feat selection n spell advice after 8th lvl honestly

I recommend you open the second of these posts with the "edit" function, and copy its contents to your clipboard or a notepad, then delete that post. Then open the first of these posts with the "edit" function, paste in the copied portion, and save it.

Now to the first post: You probably want Great Weapon Master, as that seems popular for increasing damage dealt. -5 to hit for +10 to damage is good if you're hitting regularly as-is.

Expeditious retreat takes Concentration, but if you're not using it for anything else, it's great for your "fast" pillar. Dash as a bonus action each turn!

Fly is even better, though, if you have the Concentration to spare.

If you're using your familiar, consider dragon's breath as a spell; you can make your familiar the target and he can be a useful AoE every round for a while. Just be prepared for him to become a target of enemies, so you'll need gp to resummon him after a fight, most likely. But that's still an attack not hitting anybody less replaceable.

[CTurbo]

Instead of taking Res(Dex) and Observant, take Res(Wis) and +2 Str instead. I would not personally want to ride with "just" 16 Str through level 12. Especially not with GWM.

[Gignere]

You’ll want 18 str before GWM so will second the pick up + 2 str at 6 before GWM at 8. With absorb elements you really don’t need dex saves, resilient wis is probably better in the long run.

[cutlery]

You’ll want 18 str before GWM so will second the pick up + 2 str at 6 before GWM at 8. With absorb elements you really don’t need dex saves, resilient wis is probably better in the long run.

I agree, you’ll want the accuracy first.

[Syjyl4488]

Glen, thx for the spell suggestions...I was leaning toward misty step and warding wind after I pick up shatter...alert is a good feat, but should I pick that at 12th or war caster and then wait until 14th for the other?

[Syjyl4488]

Segev...I like the way you think, was gonna pick up gwm at 8th. Only problem with dB is that it takes away from the buffs I might need to use on myself...it is a good attack option that lasts for the initial rounds of combat, and I could get my familiar back 1/day without expending a slot...but is it worth taking away from er, or pfe&g?

[Kemev]

I'm a little confused by your ability scores. You're effectively starting with a 28 point buy (for the extra -1 Cha) to get str 15, dex 13, con 16, int 13, wis 10, cha 7? I think I'm missing where the 16 Con comes from... by my math that should be 14 Con?

I also get what you're saying about wanting a character that's fast and tough, but to echo what other folks have said, the 13 dex is pretty bad. Again, you've already got Absorb Elements, and the overwhelming majority of dex saves are for elemental damage. And most abilities that have dex saves are limited use per encounter (ie, Fireball, dragon's breath weapon). If you're really worried about it, the Lucky feat is a much better option than Resilient. The reroll is worth about a +3 bonus, and if you don't need it for dex saves, you can use your luck points for something else.

If you do take Lucky, you can double down on it with Human Determination (from UA, with DM's ok of course), which gives you another pseudo-luck roll. If you're looking for ways to make your character more powerful in tier 2-3, I would take this over Heavy Armor Master. HAM's a solid feat at low levels, but it's got a severe diminishing margin of returns at higher levels.

I'm not in love with the current spell selection either. The save DC on Lightning Lure is going to be too low to be effective most of the time (no effect if they save, and most monsters will have a good Strength save). I'd rather take Silent Image, and then skip Magic Initiate. I think this is also a case where I'd take Green Flame Blade over Booming Blade (see below for details).

Speaking of save DCs, there's a case to be made that Int doesn't actually do much for Eldritch Knights. It doesn't improve the number of spells you know like it would for an actual Wizard, and you know so few spells that you could reasonably skip anything with a save or attack, and just focus on movement and defense.

This would free up the ASI you spent on Observant for something a bit higher powered (either +2 Str, or get GWM earlier in your build).

With that said, I'd be looking at something like...

Starting stats from standard point buy: Str 15, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 (if you really want, make Int 14 and Wis 10)

free feat: Lucky
V. Human feat: Human Determination
ASI 4: GWM
ASI 6: Prodigy - expertise Athletics (see below) or +2 Str
ASI 8: War Caster (at this point you probably have concentration spells you want to keep. The cantrip on opportunity attacks is extra gravy)


I would not personally want to ride with "just" 16 Str through level 12. Especially not with GWM.

Maybe. I think there's a case to be made for using shove routinely starting at level 5 (ie, shove first attack, attack with advantage + GWM on prone target second attack). In this scenario, I'd rather expertise Athletics... it's got a better damage EV, and it's a helpful team effect.

The only problem is this line of attack is it's kind of a non-bo with War Magic and Booming Blade (assuming your DM won't let you take the bonus action first). Then again, Booming Blade isn't as good when you're making multiple attacks anyway (since the second part of the damage doesn't stack). This is why I think GFB is actually better here... use shove + multiple attacks vs. a large single target, or War Magic GFB x2 for multiple enemies.

If you were content to attack with a SCAG cantrip every round and not fool around with the shove, then yes the +2 Str is better.

[Tanarii]

Dump Dex, increase Int. You don't need Dex on a Str Fighter, and you need Int for your occasional ranged magical attacks. That's a large chunk of the power of EKs compared to normal Str fighters.

Don't bother with GWM, that's a wasted feat on an EK. Once you hit level 7 you'll be mostly using War Magic to make a cantrip + single attack. Especially if you have access to the SCAG cantrips.

Edit;: ah, I missed this is an existing character. Well, if you can't rebuild, concentrate on raising Str and Int with your next few ASIs. Also swap out a spell for Thunderwave, and get Shatter when you have access to level 2 spells. If you don't have a ranged attack cantrip make that your next cantrip pick.

[Segev]

Dump Dex, increase Int. You don't need Dex on a Str Fighter, and you need Int for your occasional ranged magical attacks. That's a large chunk of the power of EKs compared to normal Str fighters.

Don't bother with GWM, that's a wasted feat on an EK. Once you hit level 7 you'll be mostly using War Magic to make a cantrip + single attack. Especially if you have access to the SCAG cantrips.

Edit;: ah, I missed this is an existing character. Well, if you can't rebuild, concentrate on raising Str and Int with your next few ASIs. Also swap out a spell for Thunderwave, and get Shatter when you have access to level 2 spells. If you don't have a ranged attack cantrip make that your next cantrip pick.

On GWM on EKs, I do suggest you take Tanarii's advice over mine. I haven't really done much with EKs, so he's probably got a better grasp on their priorities and capabilities.

Tanarii, I would be interested to know more about why GWM is a waste on EKs.

[Tanarii]

Tanarii, I would be interested to know more about why GWM is a waste on EKs.
Because most of the time you're only making one attack with your weapon.

[Eldariel]

Because most of the time you're only making one attack with your weapon.

Isn't it generally still optimal to just full attack once you get your 3rd attack? That's one of the reasons I'm not very high on EK class features: full attack is Fighter's big thing and their class features are anti-synergistic with it to the point that I generally just use their spellcasting and Fighter chassis (which is plenty good, granted).

[Gignere]

Because most of the time you're only making one attack with your weapon.

Not really if you build for it, but it doesn’t become really good until you get haste and/or greater invisibility. Of course if you have someone on your team giving you easy advantage it becomes very competitive.

However generally speaking you are correct because once shadow blade came out, it became the optimal DPR build for EKs, and it turns online faster than self buffed GWM for EKs.

[Mr Adventurer]

What specifically for EKs competes for your bonus action alongside the potential extra attack from GWM?

[cutlery]

What specifically for EKs competes for your bonus action alongside the potential extra attack from GWM?

From purely potential damage, war magic and a SCAG cantrip from 7-10 and 17-19; GWM changes this math, but you'll need to do some side math as GWM is eventually a damage loss at high target AC, unless you have a way to gain advantage. If you can apply the damage from green flame blade (two adjacent enemies) it's a better pick pretty much until 20.

War magic lets you make an extra attack as a bonus action after a cantrip; hence the conflict.

[Syjyl4488]

Kemev, I can’t dump dex as this is an existing character now, also I’ve been in situations with previous dm’s where dex saves were necessary to avoid massive damage from sources other than elemental damage, so I’m covering my bases. I got an additional bump to str n con from vhuman ability boosts plus the half feats I’ve taken, and I didn’t take any ranged cantrips figuring I can use my bow (which works with extra attack), which makes it even more important to bump up dex. I appreciate the suggestion tho. Gwm is definitely going to be an upgrade, because we’re in a high magic world with magic weapons (some of which all our characters already have), and we are using max hp for characters and monsters so I’m going to need the extra damage. We’re also using the kobold press weapon maneuvers so I don’t really need gfb, since one of the greatsword maneuvers allows me to attack 2 adjacent targets as an action (for reduced damage but still superior to gfb).

[Mr Adventurer]

Oh yes, War Magic, of course. At 11th you get your third attack though which might be a better option than two attacks one of which is a SCAGtrip

[Syjyl4488]

Tanarii, the dmg boost from gwm also works with the bb and bonus action attack since they’re both melee attacks. I can’t use ua, but we are allowed to use the kobold press weapon maneuvers and since enemies will be at max hp it’s even more important for me to be dealing as much dmg as possible.

[Tanarii]

Tanarii, the dmg boost from gwm also works with the bb and bonus action attack since they’re both melee attacks.Its not a good idea to take -25% to hit when you've got massive bonuses to damage / base damage. yes, that is true. But I'm pretty sure if you crunch the numbers you'll find DPR drops if you use GWM with BB or GFB.

[da newt]

It would be interesting to run the number to see DPRs for various options vs ACs.

1) GWM + GFB + Familiar Help, normal attack
1a) GWM +GFB + Help, GWM attack
1b) GFB + Help, GWM attack
1c) GFB + Help, normal attack
2) (PAM + GWM)x3 (+ more opp attacks)
3) Shadow Blade + GFB, shadow blade

For OP: Your build is sort of MAD in it's focus. You are building a 'do lots of stuff well, but no one thing great' character. I agree with those who don't think res dex adds much - you already have Abs El, so it's sort of redundant.

[Segev]

For OP: Your build is sort of MAD in it's focus. You are building a 'do lots of stuff well, but no one thing great' character. I agree with those who don't think res dex adds much - you already have Abs El, so it's sort of redundant.

The OP has indicated that his dex saves are out of a concern for high non-elemental damage. I don’t know how much that concern carries over to his current DM, but without knowing the kind of damage he fears, telling him to use an anti-elemental damage shield when he fears nonelemental damage is unlikely to be persuasive.

If he really can let his dex stay where it is, we need to find out what he’s really looking at in his game before we can say so with certainty.

[Syjyl4488]

The thing is I’ve had a lot of dm’s throw in cave ins, where we had to make at least 10 dex saves to avoid taking enough damage from falling debris to make it out, I’ve had dm’s use monsters that force dex saves to avoid traps and monster abilities (we don’t have a dedicated rogue either so I have to be prepared for those things too. Dex saves also come into play against spells like erupting earth which doesn’t deal elemental dmg.

[Syjyl4488]

Also, there is a different attunement system in place, more like diablo, head, hands, armor, gloves, etc. so there is an option to boost my stats without losing out on the feats I could acquire.

[Specter]

Guide in my signature might help.

[cutlery]

Oh, if AU feats are available I'd take Fey Touched over magic initiate.

A familiar is handy, but misty step is fantastic (and it explicitly calls out that you can cast it with slots, so you don't need to use a free spell for it at 7th or 8th) and a +1 to a mental stat of your choice; its a really great feat for a class with so many restrictions on their spells known, because it also grants one more 1st level divination or enchantment spell - hunters mark or hex are good choices, as is gift of alacrity (+1d8 to initiative rolls for 8 hours).

If and when you decide you want a familiar later, I'd take ritual caster instead of MI; much more utility and FF isn't something you need to be able to cast daily (and if you do, it's a ritual anyway), or dip a couple levels of wizard. School of War magic offers an initiative bonus and a nice reaction to boost to ac or (more importantly) a save.

[Syjyl4488]

Cutlery...he allows a lot of things but not ua, plus I already took mi...ff is a ritual spell, but ek’s can’t cast rituals normally anyway, so if it dies I can resummon it once per long rest for free thx to mi. The party does have quite a few casters, so I’m more of the tank

[cutlery]

Cutlery...he allows a lot of things but not ua, plus I already took mi...ff is a ritual spell, but ek’s can’t cast rituals normally anyway, so if it dies I can resummon it once per long rest for free thx to mi. The party does have quite a few casters, so I’m more of the tank

The ritual caster feat would have given you two level 1 rituals (FF could have been one, detect magic another) and you can add other spells later; all the way up to 6th level rituals when your level is high enough.

You can summon a familiar as often as you want with ritual caster, it only takes 70 minutes. Far more utility from ritual caster if what you want is a familiar. I’d ask if you can change this.

The regular once a day find familiar spell takes an hour, so it isn’t like you are getting a quick cast for it out of magic initiate.

[Kemev]

Edit;: ah, I missed this is an existing character. Well, if you can't rebuild, concentrate on raising Str and Int with your next few ASIs. Also swap out a spell for Thunderwave, and get Shatter when you have access to level 2 spells. If you don't have a ranged attack cantrip make that your next cantrip pick.

I made same mistake; thought this was a character designed to start at level 4.

If that's the case, I mostly agree with just advancing Str + Int for the next couple ASIs, and not worry about either resilient or GWM. But the kobold press rules are a wild card for me... I'm not familiar with them, so it's hard for me to guess how to optimize a build.

[Syjyl4488]

Kemev only the weapon rules...greatsword is pretty sweet, I can use my reaction to stop from being moved against my will and attack 2 adjacent targets (so I don’t need gfb, damage gets reduced by half, but our dm is gifting us with some crazy powerful items early on, my greatsword deals an additional 1d6 dmg per hit, so instead of 2d6 normally it’s 3d6, except for the wpn maneuver its 2d6 per target, instead of 1d6). it’s a really high magic campaign but the enemy hp is also maxed out so anything extra I get contributes to taking them down. I need the dex saves because a lot of dm’s I’ve had recently throw in a lot of non elemental damage which requires dex saves, and it boosts initiative bow attacks and to help from doing really poorly on stealth checks.

[GlenSmash!]

Glen, thx for the spell suggestions...I was leaning toward misty step and warding wind after I pick up shatter...alert is a good feat, but should I pick that at 12th or war caster and then wait until 14th for the other?
War Caster first. Droping a Booming Blade on an Attack of Opportunity when an enemy is trying to move away from you is too good. They either stay next to you to avoid damage, or then proc the addition damage by moving away. It's a win win.

Guide in my signature might help.
I second this. This is actually where I've been getting advice for my own EK, and what I've suggested in this thread.

[Syjyl4488]

Glen, Specter, I actually did post comments on that thread when I was building an ek for a previous campaign that fell apart, but I wanted more input for level 9 n beyond, plus more frequent comments to compare notes. I like the guide, and there are certain spells I know I want to take once I get 2nd lvl, and 3rd lvl slots, but I want valid opinions I can look at...for example, if I was approaching the 2nd lvl slots I know my first is shatter and my third will be warding wind, fourth will be darkness...but what should my free pick be? I have a few buff spells already, should I go for misty step or dragon’s breath? I can use misty step even with pfe&g up, but dB gives my familiar at will damage for 10 rounds (but it interferes with my own buffs), which is better?

[Syjyl4488]

Also, which is more important for an ek...counterspell or dispel magic?

[cutlery]

Also, which is more important for an ek...counterspell or dispel magic?


How well do you expect to be able to make spellcaster ability checks? If you dump or have low-ish int, I'd skip counterspell.

The same is also true for dispel magic, but can be used to knock out a range of buffs on a caster. I'd take dispel for utility, but you won't be winning a counterspell duel against a full caster.

[Syjyl4488]

Cutlery I just picked up a headband of intellect so my int bonus is +4, and hit 5th lvl so prof is +3

[stoutstien]

Cutlery I just picked up a headband of intellect so my int bonus is +4, and hit 5th lvl so prof is +3

Still a hard sell on counterspell unless you are practically the only one in the party that can have it. EK just don't have the slots or spell levels to fuel it. so if you're playing in a campaign where counterspell is very important and the centerpiece you probably want somebody who can do more than 4 times a day.

[Eldariel]

Still a hard sell on counterspell unless you are practically the only one in the party that can have it. EK just don't have the slots or spell levels to fuel it. so if you're playing in a campaign where counterspell is very important and the centerpiece you probably want somebody who can do more than 4 times a day.

OTOH 4 is infinitely more than 0. IME every character that can pull it off should have it. Someone to cover for when enemy Counter-Counterspells or when an ally fails the check or when there are multiple enemy casters is just insanely useful.

[stoutstien]

OTOH 4 is infinitely more than 0. IME every character that can pull it off should have it. Someone to cover for when enemy Counter-Counterspells or when an ally fails the check or when there are multiple enemy casters is just insanely useful.

Depends on how often each individual player will be willing to sit on their reaction. Ranged EK have an easier time fitting in CS and are less likely to have a ton of competition for said reaction. EK up front might have a higher priority of staying alive so defensive reaction spells will be a bigger factor.

[Tanarii]

Still a hard sell on counterspell unless you are practically the only one in the party that can have it. EK just don't have the slots or spell levels to fuel it. so if you're playing in a campaign where counterspell is very important and the centerpiece you probably want somebody who can do more than 4 times a day.
If you're counterspelling that often, you've got other problems.

[stoutstien]

If you're counterspelling that often, you've got other problems.

Why is that?

[Syjyl4488]

I mean...we have a plethora of divine spellcasters so they, in theory, could have it prepared, so it isn’t essential...I was just thinking that it would be nice to have if we encounter enemy spellcasters. That being said I could load up on another attack spell like having lightning bolt AND fireball...haste will be my free 3rd lvl spell tho, any other suggestions for 3rd lvl spells?

[Tanarii]

Why is that?
You're using level 3+ spells slots. And you're blind firing. Using a counter-spell against the first spell in a big bad battle isn't bad, but other situations it's taking a fairly large chance the spell wasn't worth countering.

Admittedly, it's a bigger fraction of valuable resources if you're an EK high enough level to cast level 3 spells, vs a full caster of the same level. So on reflection, your point was a good one.


I mean...we have a plethora of divine spellcasters so they, in theory, could have it prepared, so it isn’t essential...I was just thinking that it would be nice to have if we encounter enemy spellcasters. That being said I could load up on another attack spell like having lightning bolt AND fireball...haste will be my free 3rd lvl spell tho, any other suggestions for 3rd lvl spells?
If you feel you have enough known spells hanging around to spare one for emergency / occasional use, Counter Spell is not a terrible pick. Despite my objection, it's a good back-pocket spell to have when you're really worried about a spell being laid out against you, no matter what it might be.

(Edit: if you're DM house rules it so you know what enemy spell is being cast, a very common house rule, it's a great pick if you've got spells known to spare and commonly hold those high level spell slots in reserve.)

If you have XGtE maybe the Wall spells? Sending for non-adventuring day communications?

[cutlery]

It isn't a terrible spell for an Ek to have (and it's not one of your precious "free" spells), but a legit full caster will do something like counterspell your counterspell. Potentially a mistake, but if they're doing that so they can forcecage you, well, you're out of the fight (unless you get lucky with misty step; but that's a charisma saving throw. Good luck.).

I'm of the opinion that if you need counterspell on an Ek, you have made other grave tactical errors. If you don't have a full caster at all, your DM should have mercy on you, but if you do - that's their job. You can pinch hit in a case where something truly nasty happens and their counterspell fails - but you won't be so great at it.

[Tanarii]

It isn't a terrible spell for an Ek to have (and it's not one of your precious "free" spells), but a legit full caster will do something like counterspell your counterspell. Potentially a mistake, but if they're doing that so they can forcecage you, well, you're out of the fight (unless you get lucky with misty step; but that's a charisma saving throw. Good luck.).
That's one of the best uses of counterspell as a PC. You know what your PC is casting, and if an enemy casts a spell as a reaction to your PC's spell, you can be fairly sure you know what the enemy casting, as well as the value of your PCs spell right under the circumstance.

[cutlery]

That's one of the best uses of counterspell as a PC. You know what your PC is casting, and if an enemy casts a spell as a reaction to your PC's spell, you can be fairly sure you know what the enemy casting, as well as the value of your PCs spell right under the circumstance.

Yep, assuming they aren't upcasting it that's a great use of a reaction; and one they might not be expecting from a martial.

But that's you sniping from the sidelines in someone else's counterspell duel - not having one yourself.

[Syjyl4488]

Speaking about counterspell duels...if someone casts a 4th lvl counter, does a 3rd lvl counter counter it? Or does it need to make a check? This is weird...but in which case, if it does then it’s still worth taking...

[stoutstien]

You're using level 3+ spells slots. And you're blind firing. Using a counter-spell against the first spell in a big bad battle isn't bad, but other situations it's taking a fairly large chance the spell wasn't worth countering.

Admittedly, it's a bigger fraction of valuable resources if you're an EK high enough level to cast level 3 spells, vs a full caster of the same level. So on reflection, your point was a good one.


If you feel you have enough known spells hanging around to spare one for emergency / occasional use, Counter Spell is not a terrible pick. Despite my objection, it's a good back-pocket spell to have when you're really worried about a spell being laid out against you, no matter what it might be.

(Edit: if you're DM house rules it so you know what enemy spell is being cast, a very common house rule, it's a great pick if you've got spells known to spare and commonly hold those high level spell slots in reserve.)

If you have XGtE maybe the Wall spells? Sending for non-adventuring day communications?

aye. its never a bad pick of a spell if you have it on your list. as you said it act like an insurance spell more than a general use spell on the EK spell slot progression.

wall spells are always nice and i like wall of sand for the movement reduction stacking with difficult terrain.

[Chugger]

Treantmonk has iirc several Eldritch Knight videos on his YouTube channel. He's very smart and definitely worth checking out. Even the one devoted to EK archer is worth watching just to learn about other things the EK can do.

If you're going to keep using a two hand sword are you going GWM for a feat? If so the secret to making GWM work is to mitigate the -5 to hit. An owl familiar can give you advantage on one attack a turn, and advantage mitigates a lot of the minus to hit. Another tactic is to damage a target and then cast Hold Person on it - after you get the ability to cause it to have a disad on the ST. Hope hold holds and now you have advantage and auto-crit. Hold Person is actually a kind of marginal spell and tricky to use well, however.

The thing is, as an EK you get lots of attacks (as a fighter) - 3 per round at lvl 11 - more at higher levels. A fighter who is landing 6 GWM blows on his action surge turn is doing crazy good damage, if each hits. That's 42 average damage for the two hand sword hits, 30 damage for the str bonus (more if you have a girdle of giant str), 6 if your sword is +1 (and it should be by this point), and 60 damage for the gwm feature. That's 138 damage. But with the -5 to hit, an EK is not going to be doing that unless he figures out a way to mitigate this -5 to hit on each blow.

Maybe you don't want GWM - but I would _not_ take it unless you have a plan to make it work, to mitigate the penalty. I've seen players create GWM builds that do nothing to mitigate the penalty, and they miss, miss, hit, miss, miss, miss... it can be very frustrating.

[Syjyl4488]

Ok, so counterspell is viable...but what about my 2nd lvl free pick...is dragon’s breath worthwhile since I have a familiar, or should I just focus on my own buffs? It gives me an at will variety of dmg types for a combat, but that means I can’t buff myself...

[cutlery]

Ok, so counterspell is viable

It really isn't a good use of a spell slot; but you'll end up with an excess of abjuration/evocation spells.

You'll for sure need to pump up intellect if you plan to use it, as by the time you have access to it full casters are throwing around level 6 and 7 spells; which is a DC 16 or 17 intelligence check for you, unmodified by proficiency bonus.

Dragon's breath at 8th level is also probably not worth it.

If you will be using GWM, I'd suggest misty step for the mobility - mobility is huge. If not, I'd suggest shadow blade for the damage increase.

[Syjyl4488]

Well I already got a headband of intellect, so I’m ok with counterspell. My biggest issue with db is the concentration, sure it’s extra damage but I can’t buff myself if I’m running it, so I probably will take misty step...thx for the advice. Plus I don’t need shadow blade, I already got a badass greatsword I’m using...

[cutlery]

Well I already got a headband of intellect, so I’m ok with counterspell. My biggest issue with db is the concentration, sure it’s extra damage but I can’t buff myself if I’m running it, so I probably will take misty step...thx for the advice. Plus I don’t need shadow blade, I already got a badass greatsword I’m using...

Even with a +4 intellect bonus, you are forced to roll to counter many spells simply because you can't upcast it.

You'll have so few 3rd and 4th level slots I think it may only rarely be worth it; particularly compared to options like blink or haste.

I wouldn't bother with DB at all for the concentration slot. Seems like a great way to get one use before the familiar takes an arrow in the face. Familiars die real easy if they ever give NPCs are reason. Dragon Breath is just such a reason.

[Mr Adventurer]

Arguably, non-Chain familiars can't use Dragon's Breath since they can't make attacks.

[stoutstien]

Arguably, non-Chain familiars can't use Dragon's Breath since they can't make attacks.
Not an attack in any shape or form so they are g2g to spam it. Makes them a prime target and it's not like they are hard to hit.

[Mr Adventurer]

Not an attack in any shape or form so they are g2g to spam it. Makes them a prime target and it's not like they are hard to hit.

I don't believe there is firm footing in the rules for such an unequivocal claim.

If someone vomits fire on me with intent to harm, I will certainly feel that they have attacked me.

[Syjyl4488]

Either way, I don’t plan on taking it...between my magic greatsword (+2 wpn and +1d6 dmg) and war magic I can deal more dmg than db puts out to single targets, and I plan on taking a few aoe’s that should work well (shatter - which is like a frag grenade, and fireball), those will give me the ability to deal with crowds. Since I’m an ek, buffing myself to deal with threats, is kind of the whole point. I’m building him much as I imagine rat trap from starship troopers, capable of much mayhem and protecting the squishies. He’s not going to be the strongest or toughest thing out there, but he’s well rounded enough to get the job done and move fast when he needs to.

[cutlery]

I don't believe there is firm footing in the rules for such an unequivocal claim.

If someone vomits fire on me with intent to harm, I will certainly feel that they have attacked me.

It's hostile, sure, but it isn't the Attack action.

PHB, p 240:

"Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal."

And Dragon Breath:

"Until the spell ends, the creature can use an action to exhale energy of the chosen type in a 15-foot cone."

So, it ought to work.

That familiar is gonna die, and fast, but it ought to work.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's hostile, sure, but it isn't the Attack action.

PHB, p 240:

"Your familiar acts independently of you, but it always obeys your commands. In combat, it rolls its own initiative and acts on its own turn. A familiar can't attack, but it can take other actions as normal."

And Dragon Breath:

"Until the spell ends, the creature can use an action to exhale energy of the chosen type in a 15-foot cone."

So, it ought to work.

That familiar is gonna die, and fast, but it ought to work.

You'll notice that the parts you quote don't say "the Attack action". They say the familiar can't attack.

I do see what you are saying. But my position is that it isn't completely clear enough within the rules to make sweeping statements.

[cutlery]

You'll notice that the parts you quote don't say "the Attack action". They say the familiar can't attack.

I do see what you are saying. But my position is that it isn't completely clear enough within the rules to make sweeping statements.

Well, the other sorts of attacks, namely, spells that require an attack roll, don’t a save DC.

Using the special action granted by dragon breath isn’t what the rules call an attack.

Is it hostile? Sure. But familiars can already allow a rogue to get sneak attack or provide the help action so others can gain advantage.

And they can deliver touch spells.

[Mr Adventurer]

I concede - not because of the examples you've shown but because I found text on page 193:

"If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."

This is pretty unequivocal. I suppose it's why things like Invisibility also specify casting a spell in general.

As a DM I think I would rule differently.

[cutlery]

I concede - not because of the examples you've shown but because I found text on page 193:

"If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack."

This is pretty unequivocal. I suppose it's why things like Invisibility also specify casting a spell in general.

As a DM I think I would rule differently.

That’s the rule the arguments are based on.

For the record, though, a familiar that can attack isn’t a big deal. They really suck at that.

[Syjyl4488]

So...I’ve been rethinking how I want to build this fighter...I’m going to take warcaster at 8th, great weapon master doesn’t really help until I start using regular attacks again at 11th level, so I would probably take it at 12th. I was thinking about boosting str & con after that but was wondering what the hive mind would think about mobile or alert later on...Also, I convinced my dm to allow me to learn the mental barrier spell (ua) for a 2nd lvl reaction...currently I’m 7th lvl and I picked up shatter for some aoe goodness. But my free pick can come at 9th (when I pick up the next slot I can just switch mental barrier there and then pick my freebie)...I still think db is a bad idea, but I’m open to other options...what does the hive mind think about web (I have a ring of free action) or blur?

[Gignere]

So...I’ve been rethinking how I want to build this fighter...I’m going to take warcaster at 8th, great weapon master doesn’t really help until I start using regular attacks again at 11th level, so I would probably take it at 12th. I was thinking about boosting str & con after that but was wondering what the hive mind would think about mobile or alert later on...Also, I convinced my dm to allow me to learn the mental barrier spell (ua) for a 2nd lvl reaction...currently I’m 7th lvl and I picked up shatter for some aoe goodness. But my free pick can come at 9th (when I pick up the next slot I can just switch mental barrier there and then pick my freebie)...I still think db is a bad idea, but I’m open to other options...what does the hive mind think about web (I have a ring of free action) or blur?

Once you get the ability to inflict disadvantage to saves after you attack them web and other saves or suck become really good. Especially ones that allow repeated saves as you can keep hitting them and keep imposing disadvantage on them. So spells like blindness, hold person, etc could become very sticky. Since you can attack more than one enemy you can inflict disadvantage at least by level 11 on up to 3 enemies at once.

[Syjyl4488]

The problem with blindness/deafness and hold person is that they are single target spells and the bad guys we tend to fight who are tough on their own are avatars of evil deities, have legendary actions and aren’t necessarily humanoids (home brew campaign)...so those aren’t as good...I was thinking web as more crowd control since I can cast it with myself at the center and just lay into minions with ease. By 11th lvl I can dart around and hit three then action surge and cast web while surrounded

[Syjyl4488]

So what does the hive mind think about mobile for 14th lvl feat? Worth it, or should I just go with asi’s at that point?

[Mr Adventurer]

Mobile is a great feat which really helps with a skirmishing tactic. If as you say you want to attack multiple targets to lay an area spell on them, it will really help with that.

[Syjyl4488]

Thx!! It also boosts speed and with my speed enhancing spells I figure it’ll come in really useful...any other feat recommendations after that? Or should I just take some asi’s?

[Mr Adventurer]

I have Mobile on a Monk 5 I'm playing right now and even on a class with mobility and speed built-in it's a fantastic addition to my tactical options.

What's the rest of your build? Just upthread?

[Syjyl4488]

Currently I’m 7th lvl ek. Vuman starting stats 14 str, dex 13, con 15, int 13, wis 10, cha 7. Bumped up str to 16 with ability boost and ham, dex to 14 with res (dex), con to 16 with ability boost, and int to 14 with observant. Also have hoi so int is 19...dm is using home brew so we all get attunement slots for each body part. Featwise, took mi and ham at 1st (ff for 1st lvl, mi and sb for cantrips (sb switched to gfb for at will fire dmg). Also have bb and ll for cantrips. Took dex resilient and observant for 4th n 6th lvl feats. 1st lvl slots are shield, ae, pfe&g, and er. 2nd lvl is shatter (gonna get mental barrier (ua) at 8th along with wc, and thinking gwm at 12th, and after your suggestion mobile at 14th. I also have prof in athletics, arcana, animal handling, survival, perception. And lute (outlander background) and thieves tools (living gloves). Magic items include the magic wpn mentioned in earlier posts, an amulet which grants me boosts to svs and grapple/restrain immunity, living gloves/armor, hoi, and gon, for now. Like I said it’s homebrew, and some of the enemies are ridiculously powerful (evil avatars) and we’re supposed to be fledgling good avatars.

[Syjyl4488]

Mr. Adventurer...I took arcana as my free skill and I got an extra one at campaign start...with arcana I’ve been crafting scrolls during dt so I have more than just my limited slots per lr...it’s come in really handy...also after your suggestion I’ll pick up web at 9th lvl as my free 2nd lvl (switching it with mental barrier).

[HolyAvenger7]

Guide in my signature might help.

Will you be updating your guide post Tasha?

[Trafalgar]

You’ll want 18 str before GWM so will second the pick up + 2 str at 6 before GWM at 8. With absorb elements you really don’t need dex saves, resilient wis is probably better in the long run.

I agree. If you run do the math, you will see increasing strength will increase damage output per round more than GWM unless you are going up against creatures with really high or really low AC.

[Tanarii]

I agree. If you run do the math, you will see increasing strength will increase damage output per round more than GWM unless you are going up against creatures with really high or really low AC.
IIRC typically GWM has value against AC 16 or less for melee attacks. That's not "really low" in the level 6-8 range.

Edit: oh sorry, you're talking about the net DPR gained by using GWM vs increasing hit and damage by 1. That's different from when it's better to use GWM than not with the same base hit/damage. For +1 and 2d6+3 (Str 16 prof +3) vs +7 and 2d6+4 (Str 18 prof +3) GWM is ahead against AC 14 without advantage and roughly tied against AC 17 with advantage.

[Syjyl4488]

HolyAvenger7...our DM hasn’t mentioned that. Given that it follows typical 5e rules except for attunement, and highly powerful personalized magical items I seriously doubt it (plus it messes with bb & gfb cantrips I wouldn’t really want him to.

[Syjyl4488]

Trafalgar & Tanarii...I haven’t taken any asi’s yet, been using them all on feats & half feats. I have a highly powerful magic greatsword (abilities like a moon blade) so my attack bonus is +10, and dmg bonus is +7, so I haven’t prioritized boosting str yet. I was considering doing that at higher lvls unless I obtain gauntlets of ogre power/belt of giant str (tho honestly I’d rather save the belt slot for a belt of dwarvenkind for the con boost and get the gauntlets. As I’ve mentioned the attunement system is more like video game rpg (attunement slot per body part) so I don’t have to worry about running out of room...

[Tanarii]

In that case, comparing Str ASI = +11 and 2d6+8 vs GWM = +5 and 2d6+17

GWM is a superior option if most of your opponents are AC 15 or lower, or AC19 or lower if you easily get advantage.

https://anydice.com/program/1f988

Edit: that changes rather dramatically if you're using an SCAG cantrip with War Magic though, which I can't recall if you are. In that case GWM is never worth selecting. (Edit2: ah, I already pointed that part out.)

[Syjyl4488]

At least not until I hit 11th and can use three attacks lol, I also usually get blessed and I tend to flank bosses with our paladin.

[Tanarii]

At least not until I hit 11th and can use three attacks lol, I also usually get blessed and I tend to flank bosses with our paladin.
Even at 11th, without bless and GWM instead of Str ASI, if your opponent moves it's better to do War Magic with 1 GWM attack and 1 BB without GWM than it is to attack 3 times with GWM, against AC 13 or higher. With bless AC 16 or higher.
(Edit: Link for any dice 3xGWM, 1GWM+1BB, 1GWM+1BBmove vs AC 15 break point https://anydice.com/program/1f9d3 )

If your DM is using the advantage for flanking optional DMG rule it changes all sorts of things.

[Syjyl4488]

I mean you have a good point, but sometimes that bonus action can be used for other things (like expeditious retreat or second wind), so it really depends on the situation.

[Tanarii]

I mean you have a good point, but sometimes that bonus action can be used for other things (like expeditious retreat or second wind), so it really depends on the situation.
It does. GWM is a very powerful feat, and one of the few ways to make multiple attacks with an EK on par with War Magic.

[Eldariel]

It does. GWM is a very powerful feat, and one of the few ways to make multiple attacks with an EK on par with War Magic.

I mean, isn't it basically the same as with all Fighters: go GWM + PAM, SS + CBE or Shadow Blade if you want damage. BB + GWM has an extra ASI but two less attacks' damage on 11 than GWM/PAM or SS/CBE.

Obviously SS/CBE is the best since it comes with easy +2 from Archery, but Shadow Blade is the lowest investment option and even on Tier 3, level 2 Shadow Blade triple attack does come out ahead of SB + BBSB unless enemy triggers BB Rider (6d8+15 vs. 6d8+10 without, 6d8+10+3d8 with, but again a free bonus action for attacker, and level 3 SB further favours full attack). If they are Dueling, full attack is of course even further favoured (or TWF but that's kinda silly since the whole point of using SB is that you can use a shield).

Of course, since you have War Magic anyways, SB build can just pick whichever option feels better; GFB/BB + bonus action or any full attack.

[Syjyl4488]

Well...I work with a greatsword so no Pam, but yeah it’s nice to have extra options. I don’t really do ranged combat I’m more of a melee build. Warcaster will give me bb for oa’s even though that competes with my reaction spells, but having better chance of retaining my buffs is better for now. Gwm isn’t really great until after 11th and is still fitting with my theme for him, so I’ll take it at 12.

[Syjyl4488]

Also, I have a magic wpn already that is pretty badass so I don’t really need shadow blade.

[Eldariel]

Also, I have a magic wpn already that is pretty badass so I don’t really need shadow blade.

With a +2 weapon, GWM obviously gets much better. Every point of to hit makes it stronger. Don't forget the Cleave effect either; it's not all that common but it's not like it's never relevant either and it also gives you the bonus action attack.

[Syjyl4488]

True...we’re also using the weapon abilities from kobold press, so technically I could attack up to 6 targets in range by 11th lvl with eldritch strike n action surge to web them all lol

[Eldariel]

True...we’re also using the weapon abilities from kobold press, so technically I could attack up to 6 targets in range by 11th lvl with eldritch strike n action surge to web them all lol

The more attacks you have, the better GWM gets. At 6 attacks it's already ridiculously much better than BB pretty much regardless of target AC, let alone if you have reasonable means for generating advantage (Blind Fighting + Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics as the easiest option but there's of course more elaborate ways to go about it too). There's rough competition for the level 2 non-school specific spell: it could be Misty Step or Web or any such. Web wants a lot of Int of course but it's by far the strongest CC ability along level 2 spells, remaining relevant pretty much forever.

Just for clarity, to try and make sense of your build we have:
Level 5 EK

16 Str
13 Dex
16 Con
14 Int
10 Wis
7 Cha

Observant
Heavy Armor Master
Magic Initiate: Wizard


With weapon abilities this screams for Great Weapon Master. Getting what amounts to four attacks if you have two adjacent opponents gives you absurd returns out of your feat and a +2 weapon puts you on par with a 20 Str Fighter already. So definitely take Great Weapon Master on level 6. Hit two enemies twice, kill one, arc an additional hit to the second one (and a third one if they happen to be available). Also, focus on ways to get advantage to attacks. If you retrain your fighting style to Blind Fighting [Tasha's], you could use Fog Cloud for one-sided advantage: 10' blindsight means enemies attack you at disadvantage and you them at advantage. So Fog Cloud > move up > Action Surge > hit both enemies twice at advantage with GWM > bonus action > hit enemies some more. Once you get 2nd level spells, you can instead use this by casting Darkness on your sword and just getting in there.

Then you could buff your Str. This also protects you from many types of targeted spells and attacks, though of course you'll have to work with your party to make sure they can operate with the vision denial effects too.

[Syjyl4488]

Well...arcing slash from the kobold press means I can attack 2 adjacent targets per attack at half greatsword damage (so normally 1d6 + str, but add another 1d6 because of the sword). I’m also taking mental barrier next time I get a spell slot (ua spell that offers decent protection on mental saves, dm’s letting me research it as dt activity), so I won’t pick up web or darkness for awhile. Lastly, I have gwf as my fighting style (which really bumps up the dmg on a low roll).

[Eldariel]

Well...arcing slash from the kobold press means I can attack 2 adjacent targets per attack at half greatsword damage (so normally 1d6 + str, but add another 1d6 because of the sword). I’m also taking mental barrier next time I get a spell slot (ua spell that offers decent protection on mental saves, dm’s letting me research it as dt activity), so I won’t pick up web or darkness for awhile. Lastly, I have gwf as my fighting style (which really bumps up the dmg on a low roll).

Yeah, I know Arcing Slash: it goes superwell with Great Weapon Master. If you take GWM you won't need GWF, since most of your damage comes from the bonuses anyways. Getting that +10 on multiple attacks is just great. 1d6+5+10 x 2 is worlds better than 2d6 + 5 + 10 (15 more damage per round, to be precise).

Tasha's Cauldron has rules for retraining your weapon style whenever you hit a level offering ASI. Basically, lose one, get another: so lose GWF and get Blind Fighting. This would let you pick up Blind Fighting on level 6. Then switching Expeditious Retreat for Fog Cloud and potentially switching Fog Cloud for something else on level 7 where you get Darkness without cross-school resources from your native Evocation.

Best part? If you aren't happy, you can just switch back to Great Weapon Fighting on level 8. But I bet you'll be happy rolling your attacks on advantage with the +10/-5. Then you can go 18 Str on level 8 and 20 Str on level 12.


Level 6 spells:
1.
Absorb Elements
Shield
Protection from G&E
Fog Cloud

This would put your spells for level 7 at:
1.
Absorb Elements
Shield
Protection from G&E
Expeditious Retreat

2.
Darkness


After that, Warding Wind is indeed probably worth knowing, and Web or Misty Step is likely your best off-school option. Web is great to use your Eldritch Strike while Misty Step is just overall a stand-out spell (get out of grapples and such, bypass all sorts of terrain obstacles, get to the perfect position for your Hurricane of Death GWM+Arcing Slash+Cleave, enter through small openings, etc.). It's a rough choice.

If your DM allows retraining, I'd also retrain your Magic Initiate into Ritual Caster: Wizard and then with Find Familiar in your ritual book: this opens up all sorts of Wizardly things for you to do. It would cost you two cantrips (but you can still retain Minor Illusion or Prestidigitation in combination with Booming Blade), but would open up all sorts of cool stuff down the line (on this level, Unseen Servant, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Alarm, Identify, Floating Disk, Magic Mouth, Tiny Hut, Phantom Steed, Water Breathing of which especially Magic Mouth, Phantom Steed & Tiny Hut are huge).

[Sandeman]

What is Arcing Slash?
I have never heard of it.

[Eldariel]

What is Arcing Slash?
I have never heard of it.

From Kobold Press's Beyond Damage Dice, which gives each weapon a couple of different maneuvers to use. This one lets a Greatsword user hit two targets for 1d6+Str instead of one target for 2d6+Str.

[Syjyl4488]

While that would be an interesting combo, 1/2 of the party are casters and would really mess them up (also don’t need ritual caster because if that), but gwf really boosts my dmg output especially if I’m using arcing slash (normal dmg is 3d6 + str + magic bonus because of the sword, but as is only 1d6 less). If I took fighting initiate down the line then I’d consider it as a secondary fs, but I was planning to stop with feats at 14th and do the last 2 as asi’s. 8th (warcaster), 12th (gwm), 14th (mobile).

[Eldariel]

While that would be an interesting combo, 1/2 of the party are casters and would really mess them up (also don’t need ritual caster because if that), but gwf really boosts my dmg output especially if I’m using arcing slash (normal dmg is 3d6 + str + magic bonus because of the sword, but as is only 1d6 less). If I took fighting initiate down the line then I’d consider it as a secondary fs, but I was planning to stop with feats at 14th and do the last 2 as asi’s. 8th (warcaster), 12th (gwm), 14th (mobile).

Even in that case, you can go in, get your attacks, and move away. Thanks to Darkness you won't provoke AoOs. You need 15' of movement to get them out of area of Darkness. For example. There are few other ways to use it too, of course: base darkness on e.g. an item in a pouch and use your free item interaction on your turn to close the pouch. Or put some easy-to-drop scarf on it. Either way, you can then start the Darkness-effect again on your next turn. This'll obviously be less useful defensively. Worst case, you can stop Concentrating whenever to let your casters get hits in, though that's of course very slot inefficient.

[Syjyl4488]

Also the enemies we fight against have an affinity with darkness and shadowy areas (some were drow, some had shadow teleports) so darkness isn’t as good (I was considering it when I first made my char tho tbh...I think my last 2nd lvl spell will be warding wind...ranged protection and hedge out spells like fog cloud, stinking cloud, and cloudkill. Only reason I’m taking web is because of my item that basically gives me immunity to restrained/grapple conditions (I can basically center it on myself or not and just wade through it) and I can set ppl on fire in it with gfb (or have one of the mages fireball the whole area and ae myself lol)

[Syjyl4488]

I was wondering something...I took gfb for some at will fired dmg, but since my game uses kobold press weapon maneuvers, I can use any attack roll to hit 2 adjacent targets, which deals almost as much (if not more) damage until late game. Should I switch the cantrip back to sword burst (I had taken it with magic initiate, but my dm allowed me to retrain it as I would any ek spell at level up), it would be infinitely more useful if I was surrounded and I could still get that bonus attack (at 2 targets, mind you) thanks to war magic...thoughts?

[Gignere]

I was wondering something...I took gfb for some at will fired dmg, but since my game uses kobold press weapon maneuvers, I can use any attack roll to hit 2 adjacent targets, which deals almost as much (if not more) damage until late game. Should I switch the cantrip back to sword burst (I had taken it with magic initiate, but my dm allowed me to retrain it as I would any ek spell at level up), it would be infinitely more useful if I was surrounded and I could still get that bonus attack (at 2 targets, mind you) thanks to war magic...thoughts?

I mean unless you have three+ enemies would sword burst be better actually I think the above break even may actually be at 4+ enemies.

You can GFB and hit two adjacent targets and bonus action and hit the same two targets splitting your damage. Unless you find yourself constantly surrounded with 4 enemies I don’t think sword burst is going to do more for you.

[Syjyl4488]

Fair enough, thanks for the advice.