Need help finding alternative damage types spells

[Max Caysey]

Hi guys and girls

I'm looking for spells that does hp damage, but with other kinds of damage than elemental [Acid, Fire, Electricity, Cold or Sonic] or [force].

Currently I only have only found Maw of Chaos... what other spells might be out there? Whether its a lot or little damage is not important, just as long as its not either of the above types!

Cheers!

[liquidformat]

Well the inflict line of spells deals negative energy damage and same with harm; Blade Barrier, cloud of knives, and similar spells do piercing/slashing damage; Chaos hammer, Forbiddance, and similar do 'alignment damage'; Destruction and Disintegrate do unspecified damage type...

[Venger]

So do you want a list of all spells that deal untyped damage like deadfall or the divine half of flame strike? Or do you want obscure damage types that aren't the energy types or force type? Aside from the ones you've mentioned, I believe the only others that are extant are city damage and vile damage.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Splinterbolt in SC is a piercing damage version of Scorching Ray on the Druid list. It makes normal attacks instead of touch attacks and crits on an 18-20. Icelance does half piercing and half cold damage.

If you're looking to pick a class that does this best, Psion or Wilder or Ardent can get Crystal Shard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/crystalShard.htm), Swarm of Crystals (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm), and Hail of Crystals (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hailofCrystals.htm) (with Expanded Knowledge if needed). You can also pick some efficient energy damage powers and switch what type of damage it does each time you use it.

[Thurbane]

This thread has some suggestions: [3.5] Looking For No SR Untyped Damage Spells (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?578932)

[Max Caysey]

Well... I'm just looking for spells that does HP damage which isn't elemental or force... Whether they are obscure or not is not important. However, they have to be accessible to a wizard. Either via being on the wizard list, or accessible through the use of limited wish or wish!

The target is an enemy wizardress who has immunities galore... So I'm trying to figure out ways of simply taking her out. Sure Mordenkainen's Disjunction would help, but I dislike using that spell, so I want to bypass her immunities by simply using something that isn't force or elemental... beat her at her own game so to speak!

[Biggus]

Well, there's good old Horrid Wilting and Disintegrate. In Sandstorm there are spells which do desiccation damage (which the previously untyped HW was retconned to be, IIRC).

Edit: there are lots more in the SpC: Cyclonic Blast, Radiant Assault, Fleshshiver, Avasculate (evil), Black Blade of Disaster, Obedient Avalanche and Sphere of Ultimate Destruction.

[DeAnno]

Reciprocal Gyre (5, SC) is particularly efficient for attacking excessive buffstackers and the damage is entirely untyped, no SR, with no keywords.

[Anthrowhale]

A classic here is Hail of Stone. It doesn't do very much, but if you can get Arcane Thesis[Hail of Stone], Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion], Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion], Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic[Twin Spell], Invisible Spell, Maximize Spell [7 feats], then you can cast Arcane Spellsurge followed by a

Twin Easy[Twin] Inivisible Greater Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Maximized Hail of Stone
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Maximized Hail of Stone
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Hail of Stone

which is an SR:No Save:No untyped area of effect doing 8 x 5d4 + 12*20 ~= 340 damage.

[DeAnno]

A classic here is Hail of Stone.

...

Greater Arcane Fusion

Even with Spellsurge, you can't put metamagic Hail of Stone in an Arcane Fusion since Hail of Stone has a casting time of 1 round. With metamagic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) it goes to 1 round + 1 Full round. Spellsurge presumably lowers it back down to 1 round. Arcane Fusions can't cast spells with casting times longer than a standard action.

[Anthrowhale]

Even with Spellsurge, you can't put metamagic Hail of Stone in an Arcane Fusion since Hail of Stone has a casting time of 1 round. With metamagic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats) it goes to 1 round + 1 Full round. Spellsurge presumably lowers it back down to 1 round. Arcane Fusions can't cast spells with casting times longer than a standard action.

Oops, yeah, that's an issue. How about: Iron Will, Reserves of Strength, Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion], Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion], Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic[Twin Spell], Invisible Spell [7 feats], then you can cast Arcane Spellsurge followed by a

Twin Easy[Twin] Inivisible Greater Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Hail of Stone
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Hail of Stone
Hail of Stone

Doing 10x 8d4 = 200 SR:No Save:No damage.

[Venger]

Oops, yeah, that's an issue. How about: Iron Will, Reserves of Strength, Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion], Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion], Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic[Twin Spell], Invisible Spell [7 feats], then you can cast Arcane Spellsurge followed by a

Twin Easy[Twin] Inivisible Greater Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Hail of Stone
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Hail of Stone
Hail of Stone

Doing 10x 8d4 = 200 SR:No Save:No damage.

So the breakdown is:
round 1: standard: cast arcane spellsurge as a 7
round 2: standard: twin easy (twin) invisible greater arcane fusion as a 7
spell 1 in the GAF: hail of stone as a 1
spell 2 in the GAF: twin easy (twin) invisible arcane fusion as a 4
spell 1 in the AF: hail of stone as a 1
spell 2 in the AF: hail of stone as a 1

spell 2 in the GAF is twinned for 2 more hails of stone
GAF itself is twinned, resulting in 4 extra hails from the AF
there are a total of 10 hails.

We're assuming a standard caster level of 14, giving you a cl of 16 for your theses. This gives damage of 10x5d4 = 120 average. I don't understand how you're getting 8d4 or 200 average damage. What am I missing?

[Anthrowhale]

So the breakdown is:
round 1: standard: cast arcane spellsurge as a 7
round 2: standard: twin easy (twin) invisible greater arcane fusion as a 7
spell 1 in the GAF: hail of stone as a 1
spell 2 in the GAF: twin easy (twin) invisible arcane fusion as a 4
spell 1 in the AF: hail of stone as a 1
spell 2 in the AF: hail of stone as a 1

spell 2 in the GAF is twinned for 2 more hails of stone
GAF itself is twinned, resulting in 4 extra hails from the AF
there are a total of 10 hails.

We're assuming a standard caster level of 14, giving you a cl of 16 for your theses. This gives damage of 10x5d4 = 120 average. I don't understand how you're getting 8d4 or 200 average damage. What am I missing?
I'm not sure where caster level 14 is coming from?

If you are a wizard (via, for example, Wyrm Wizard 4), then you cast Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Greater Arcane Fusion as a swift action in round 1 after casting Arcane Spellsurge as a standard action.

The missing element is Reserves of Strength, which allows you to increase the damage cap for Hail of Stones to 8d4.

[DeAnno]

One could argue that a Wizard can't usefully use Arcane Fusion, even if he learns it, because a Wizard casts Wizard spells, not Sorcerer spells.

[Venger]

I'm not sure where caster level 14 is coming from?

If you are a wizard (via, for example, Wyrm Wizard 4), then you cast Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Greater Arcane Fusion as a swift action in round 1 after casting Arcane Spellsurge as a standard action.

The missing element is Reserves of Strength, which allows you to increase the damage cap for Hail of Stones to 8d4.
I assumed minimum cl to cast greater arcane fusion for a sorcerer.

You didn't mention being a wyrm wizard, so I didn't assume you were one. He can certainly do that. So reserves of strength allows you to ignore caps entirely? Why would it only boost cl to 8, and not to whatever your cl was?


One could argue that a Wizard can't usefully use Arcane Fusion, even if he learns it, because a Wizard casts Wizard spells, not Sorcerer spells.
A normal wizard can't cast it. No argument necessary. It isn't on their list. Wyrm wizards can add spells from other lists, so that's how he'd be getting it.

[DeAnno]

A normal wizard can't cast it. No argument necessary. It isn't on their list. Wyrm wizards can add spells from other lists, so that's how he'd be getting it.

I realize that, but I was referring to:


When you cast this spell, choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know.

Do Wizards in fact know Sorcerer spells? Do they know spells at all? Or just have them in their spellbook? I've seen this argument go around a few times with regards to Arcane Fusion off-list use.

[Venger]

I assume he would be taking arcane fusion and greater arcane fusion as spell research through wyrm wizard, so he would know them. Wizards know the spells in their spellbooks.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. wizards knowing spells, that seems to be pretty ironclad in terms of RAW as it is affirmed many times in the rules. Here's one instance (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#wizard).

...a wizard may know any number of spells.



One could argue that a Wizard can't usefully use Arcane Fusion, even if he learns it, because a Wizard casts Wizard spells, not Sorcerer spells.

This is a bit more delicate. If a wizard casts a spell is it a different spell than the sorcerers spell? As far as I can tell, it's not. For example, the spell-stacking rules are not impacted by whether a spell is cast by two wizards or a wizard and a sorcerer. So, is a sorcerer/wizard spell cast by a wizard somehow different from a sorcerer spell in some way that does not affect spell-stacking? I'm not aware of any rule saying that and the plain reading implies it's the same spell whether cast by a sorcerer or by a wizard.

A few other details:
(1) Recaster is perhaps a bit better than Wyrm Wizard if you can swing the entry requirements.
(2) It's certainly more natural for a Sorcerer to do it.
(3) I'm using the nonabusive reading of Reserves of Strength which allows up to +3.
(4) I spent some time looking for Hail of Stones alternatives. It looks like L4 Hellfire (5d8) and L7 Hellfire Storm (10d8) are the other options although they require an extra feat (arcane disciple) to use.

That would allow you to use:
Arcane Disciple[Diabolic], Arcane Thesis[Hellfire], Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion], Arcane Thesis[Greater Arcane Fusion], Twin Spell, Easy Metamagic[Twin Spell], Invisible Spell [7 feats],

Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Greater Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Hellfire
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Arcane Fusion in which you cast:
Twin Easy[Twin] Invisible Hellfire
Hail of Stone

to deal 4x 5d4 + 12x 5d8 =320 SR:No Save:None area of effect damage.

[DeAnno]

This is a bit more delicate. If a wizard casts a spell is it a different spell than the sorcerers spell? As far as I can tell, it's not. For example, the spell-stacking rules are not impacted by whether a spell is cast by two wizards or a wizard and a sorcerer. So, is a sorcerer/wizard spell cast by a wizard somehow different from a sorcerer spell in some way that does not affect spell-stacking? I'm not aware of any rule saying that and the plain reading implies it's the same spell whether cast by a sorcerer or by a wizard.

Yeah, it's not an unreasonable reading at all, just can be thorny is all. Though on another note:


Hellfire

This is a good spell, but being an Evocation it fails to penetrate an AMF the way an Instantaneous Conjuration does.


(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)

Heroes of Battle's Acid Rain is another very reliable seed in this fashion that runs afoul of a similar problem, being a Conjuration but not Instantaneous, despite being SR: No.

[Venger]

Hellfire also unfortunately allows sr.

[Anthrowhale]

This is a good spell, but being an Evocation it fails to penetrate an AMF the way an Instantaneous Conjuration does.

I believe even Instantaneous Conjuration AoE spells fail in an AMF. If you look here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#creation) you see:
If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. while AMF says (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm):
(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.) Reading closely, the assembly is magical and hence suppressed, but the effect, if it is assembled outside of an AMF, is not. This is reinforced by the parenthesis as they indicate that this is explanatory rather than rules text, so you can remove the parenthetical without altering the rules.

The Rules Compendium is somewhat more direct here aside from a grammar fail.


[An instantaneous area spell]...only where its area overlaps the antimagic area is its effect is suppressed (and effectively canceled).

My understanding is that you really need your mailman strategy with (Lesser) Orbs to deal with AMF foes directly since you can assemble outside of the AMF and then fire in. The only thing other than orbs the I know of are Acid Splash (L0), Ice Darts (L2), and Slime Hurl (L5).

Hellfire also unfortunately allows sr.
The FCII version, which I believe is the most recent, is SR:No. The older BoVD version is SR:Yes.

[Melcar]

I believe even Instantaneous Conjuration AoE spells fail in an AMF.

Well, the do not... Conjuring a wall of iron above the enemy caster inside a AMF and letting it fall onto the enemy caster will indeed hit that person. Same thing goes with Orb of X... But you have to conjure it outside the AMF, because the AMF wont let you assemble to energies within it!

Being struck by an instantaneous conjuration (creation) effect is like being struck by a mundane, non-magical version of that substance!

[Anthrowhale]

Well, the do not... Conjuring a wall of iron above the enemy caster inside a AMF and letting it fall onto the enemy caster will indeed hit that person. Same thing goes with Orb of X... But you have to conjure it outside the AMF, because the AMF wont let you assemble to energies within it!

Being struck by an instantaneous conjuration (creation) effect is like being struck by a mundane, non-magical version of that substance!

I believe you are agreeing with me, at least in all your examples. The Wall of Iron would work although 10d6 with a reflex save for no damage is rather modest for a 6th level spell.

[somedudeguy]

You could also take Silver Flame Pyromancer. It lets you eventually treat all fire damage you do as untyped sacred damage (as well as some other fun cute stuff). If you take a level of archmage for master of elements then all elemental damage you do is fire damage, which means everything is untyped sacred damage.

Probably not the most optimal choice, but I have found it funny.

[DeAnno]

I believe even Instantaneous Conjuration AoE spells fail in an AMF. If you look here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#creation) you see: while AMF says (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm): Reading closely, the assembly is magical and hence suppressed, but the effect, if it is assembled outside of an AMF, is not. This is reinforced by the parenthesis as they indicate that this is explanatory rather than rules text, so you can remove the parenthetical without altering the rules.

The Rules Compendium is somewhat more direct here aside from a grammar fail.

My impression was that Instantaneous Conjuration Area spells were assembled at the point of origin and that their spread over a volume was the result of the momentum the material was assembled with. This meant among other things you could use a Hail of Stone to penetrate an AMF as long as the Point of Origin (or maybe plane of origin, if that's your interpretation) was outside. This RC quote definitely casts doubt on that idea though.

Then again RC is famous for half-baked terrible rulings, not the least of which the full-round action Sneak Attack volley ruling which encourages you to metamagic Scorching Ray-esque spells simply to be able to Sneak Attack with them.

[darkdragoon]

City Magic might help if you're in mostly big areas.

[Unavenger]

Telekinesis generally does physical damage, while levitate can deal a very unusual damage type: falling. Summon Monster and the other "I brought friends" spells can obviously do physical damage at length as well. All of the light-themed spells do untyped damage but are, outside of that, universally awful. Wall of thorns does slashing but only to creatures with under 25 AC. Earthquake does bludgeoning damage to creatures and just damage to objects. This is without leaving core; there's a bunch of others for almost any damage type you can name if you search all the books.

[Max Caysey]

Thanks everyone for all the comments and ideas! It certainly been a learning experience for me. Now while there were too many great spells and ideas to mention, I do wanna thank all of you for all the help! It was great!




Reciprocal Gyre (5, SC) is particularly efficient for attacking excessive buffstackers and the damage is entirely untyped, no SR, with no keywords.

Looking at this spell, is there any way to actually avoid the damage? It says will save for half, but that could leave quite a lot of damage still to be dealt. Now its great if there isn't because it will hurt my enemy greatly, but equally dangerous if its cast on me. I have multiple permanency spells on me on top of a bunch of 24 hour buff spells, not to mention the usual buff spells when entering combat... So its equally dangerous to myself...

[JNAProductions]

Looking at this spell, is there any way to actually avoid the damage? It says will save for half, but that could leave quite a lot of damage still to be dealt. Now its great if there isn't because it will hurt my enemy greatly, but equally dangerous if its cast on me. I have multiple permanency spells on me on top of a bunch of 24 hour buff spells, not to mention the usual buff spells when entering combat... So its equally dangerous to myself...

Get Mettle and pump your Will Saves sky-high?

[DeAnno]

Looking at this spell, is there any way to actually avoid the damage? It says will save for half, but that could leave quite a lot of damage still to be dealt. Now its great if there isn't because it will hurt my enemy greatly, but equally dangerous if its cast on me. I have multiple permanency spells on me on top of a bunch of 24 hour buff spells, not to mention the usual buff spells when entering combat... So its equally dangerous to myself...

If you can Disjunction ontop of yourself as an immediate action somehow it'll pop all your buffs and the spell will deal no damage. Otherwise you could get the Mettle ability somehow, Tabard of Valor from CC sorta almost does that.

[Biggus]

Looking at this spell, is there any way to actually avoid the damage? It says will save for half, but that could leave quite a lot of damage still to be dealt. Now its great if there isn't because it will hurt my enemy greatly, but equally dangerous if its cast on me. I have multiple permanency spells on me on top of a bunch of 24 hour buff spells, not to mention the usual buff spells when entering combat... So its equally dangerous to myself...

The only way I know of is the Mettle ability, which if you successfully save reduces the damage to zero. There's a list of classes which provide it here under 'M': https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?454553

As far as I know the only way to get Mettle without taking class levels is the Tabard of Valor (CC p.142) which gives it when you're on half HPs or less.

[Venger]

Looking at this spell, is there any way to actually avoid the damage? It says will save for half, but that could leave quite a lot of damage still to be dealt. Now its great if there isn't because it will hurt my enemy greatly, but equally dangerous if its cast on me. I have multiple permanency spells on me on top of a bunch of 24 hour buff spells, not to mention the usual buff spells when entering combat... So its equally dangerous to myself...

Since it's one of the rare will partial spells, anyone with mettle who makes their save can ignore the damage entirely. Aside from that, no. Mettle is a pretty rare ability, so I wouldn't worry about it. If you're worried about getting slammed with it, have some dispel magics ready and counterspell.

[Thurbane]

A Tabard of Valor (Complete Champion) gives the Mettle ability, but only when at 1/2 hp or less.

Ring of Counterspells would work.

Otiluke's Suppressing Field can also provide some defense, as can Spell Turning.