combat strategy challenge

[da newt]

In another thread it was suggested that I could increase my combat skill from scenario discussions / duels. It was fun and interesting, so I thought I'd throw out another.

Scenario:
Your party - all lvl 7,
Bear Totem Barb, Maul, GWM, 15 AC
Thief Rogue, long bow, SS, 15 AC
Moon Druid, 17 AC
Draconic Sorc, 14 AC
Life Cleric, 18 AC

Bad guys - 3 Stone Giants

Environment - day time, normal visibility, you are in a box canyon, the giants are at the entrance 3 abreast 20' between them, your front line is 40' away, there is room to maneuver and a few small trees (rogue can hide), you are trapped.

Your Barb will reckless attack the closest giant, your rogue will hide and snipe. What will your Druid, Cleric, and Sorc do round by round, and most importantly WHY? What is your best strategy? What is the expected outcome?

(is my scenario fair)

[Unoriginal]

Is the goal to kill all three giants? Or just one then escape?

[Frogreaver]

A few additional parameters.
Need initiative order
Need spells prepared (and known for sorc)
Need some idea on monster tactics

[MaxWilson]

Is the goal to kill all three giants? Or just one then escape?

Or to recruit them for your cause? (My players love attempting this.)

Because it's a combat challenge and not an adventuring challenge I assume any goal besides "fight to the death" is off the table, but I just want to state for the record that Moon Druid: Pass Without Trace + Charm Monster is possible and potentially converts enemies into temporary allies, so you GROW in strength over time instead of losing strength to attrition.

That said, the basic strategy I'd pursue in a pure combat challenge is for the Moon Druid to Conjure Animals as close to the giants as possible (where they can threaten opportunity attacks), then seek cover or lie prone as far away from the giants as possible to impose disadvantage on Boulder attacks. Sorc should Hypnotic Pattern the two Giants furthest away from the Barb, then back off and lie prone. Life Cleric Blesses Barb, Rogue, and Moon Druid and also hangs back as far as possible, lying prone.

The idea is to let the Barb, Rogue, and animals kill one giant at a time. Prone guys may start casting cantrips next round and/or stand up if any enemies are too close to be able to avoid melee attacks next turn, but their damage contribution would be minimal so their main job is just to keep concentration on their spells.

I can't do a round by round right now, may roll it out later. Expected outcome is three dead giants, a barbarian who's heavily damaged because he keeps going Reckless (sigh), and several leftover conjured Animals that we can use as scouts for the next hour if the druid can communicate with them.

[Frogreaver]

My basic idea on this one is to Have sorc twin polymorph giant ape onto the rogue and barbarian. They would engage in melee 2 different stone giants. Druid would conjure wolves targeting the third stone giant. Cleric would cast bless (2nd level) on the 2 giant apes and Sorc and Druid.

Hypnotic pattern was a good idea but has a fairly high chance of failure (25% chance of affecting no stone giants)

Alternate cleric strategy over bless is to cast banishment on one. The stone giant has low charisma saves. 75% chance to be banished.

[da newt]

Yes - non combat is always an option and often the best one, but for the sake of a combat strategies discussion, it's a fight to TPK.

Pick your spells
Your party goes in order listed then, giants
Giants will try to kill all by clubbing in melee, if unable to close - then throw rock at the perceived greatest threat, and they like to gang up on one guy and splat him quickly.

Max -

Charm monster: if giant fails wis save w/ ADV, then it regards the caster as a friend, but regards the rest of party as food and the other giants as their best buddies since childhood, right? You have only 1 lvl 4 spell slot / full caster, and can only target one giant / casting, right? What am I missing?

What animals, how many? If you prefer the Barb to not reckless or GWM, go for it.

[MaxWilson]

Hypnotic pattern was a good idea but has a fairly high chance of failure (25% chance of affecting no stone giants)


If the Hypnotic Pattern fails, next round the sorc will Polymorph the barbarian. Hopefully he gets to keep Rage while a Giant Ape. Also hopefully he will be grateful instead of sore about it since by this point he'll have taken four or more greatclub attacks with advantage and is starting to realize they hurt. :)

[KorvinStarmast]

Max has a pretty good idea, with using the summons to try and flood their action economy and maybe know one of them prone, Also not a bad idea to hide/prone for avoiding those big damage rocks that giants like to throw, but I'd rather defeat the enemy in detail.

a. Cleric Banishes one, party fights the other two. This is made easier if ....
b. If Sorcerer has Tasha's Hideous Laughter, that might allow you to focus fire on one for a round or two ... then get the laugher, and then get the one who was banished to come back and explaine:

"You can either join us to help us meet (Objective X) or you can lie in peace with your associates."

[MaxWilson]

Max has a pretty good idea, with using the summons to try and flood their action economy and maybe know one of them prone, but I'd rather defeat the enemy in detail. Also not a bad idea to hide/prone for avoiding those big damage rocks that giants like to throw.

a. Banish one, fight the other two.
b. If Sorcerer has Tasha's Hideous Laughter, that might allow you to focus fire on one for a round or two ... then get the laugher, and then get the one who was banished to come back and explaine:

"You can either join us to help us meet (Objective X) or you can lie in peace with your associates."

Not a bad plan, but nitpick: Tasha's is a Bard/Wizard-only spell.

[Frogreaver]

Seems an alternate strategy is to let the barbarian tank (limited reckless) and DPS giants down as fast as possible one at a time.

Twin haste on rogue and barbarian. Cleric Can use sanctuary turn after turn to make barbarian extremely hard to damage. If he becomes too injured can heal him with channel divinity. Etc.

[KorvinStarmast]

Not a bad plan, but nitpick: Tasha's is a Bard/Wizard-only spell.
Whoops, our Arcane Trickster has it, and for some reason I was braining it as a Sorcerer spell.
He could have it with Magic Initiate or on a scroll, but ... uh .... er ... Oops.

[MaxWilson]

Seems an alternate strategy is to let the barbarian tank (limited reckless) and DPS giants down as fast as possible one at a time.

Twin haste on rogue and barbarian. Cleric Can use sanctuary turn after turn to make barbarian extremely hard to damage. If he becomes too injured can heal him with channel divinity. Etc.

I think it's worth running the numbers of the Twin Haste vs. action denial strategies to see which one ultimately uses less resources. My intuition tells me that taking giants out of the fight immediately is more valuable than slightly speeding up DPS, but I could be wrong.

[KorvinStarmast]

My alternate to Tasha's is
Sorcerer, cast Slow on Giants.
At least the number of attacks that they make ...

[MaxWilson]

My alternate to Tasha's is
Sorcerer, cast Slow on Giants.
At least the number of attacks that they make ...

Could work. I don't like the save-every-round bit but at least you hit three giants up front.

[Chugger]

slow is a great spell, but the giants are 20 feet apart. We could get 2 of them or gamble and wait and see if they get closer together - but slowing 2 would be could - could impose a disadvantage on one w/ meta magic.

Or Twin cast Banishment. It's a Cha save, they have -1. If you banish 2, the fight is over. Divide and conquer. The one giant goes down easily. When the other 2 come back you have readied actions - and now Slow these two - or fear one or w/e.

When a sorc uses strong control options, unless the party has horrible luck on giant STs, this fight can be easily won. Divide and conquer is a powerful option.

[da newt]

I thought wolves could only prone large and smaller, but there is no size limit listed, and it's DC 11 ST Save (not athletics) so even with 23 ST, that's a +6 for an effective DC 5.

Hypnotic pattern is a 30' cube so you can only target 2 giants at once (unless they clump together), WIZ save should be DC 15 with giant's +4 = effective DC 11 so 50%. So 25% both fail, 50% one fails, 25% none fail.

Twin polymorph is 100% effective, but RAW = no more Rage or Reckless or weapon use, but +300 hp and 2x 3d10+6 is game changing. The 12 AC is a bummer. If possible the two apes should double team one giant (if the other giants aren't threatening the casters), right? Giants and Apes are +9 to hit, but Giants are 2x 3d8+6. Giants are 90% to hit for 19.5 each hit = 35 dpr vs ape 60% to hit for 22.5 each = 27 dpr so pretty much even if they go 1 v 1.

A giant will kill 1.75 wolves every round, and each wolf will do ~ 5.9 dpr. So 8 wolves vs 1 giant = 4 or 5 rounds, and just about 50-50 who is just barely standing at the end.

(none of these account for crits, bless, etc 'cause I haven't played w/ probs in forever, so I'm winging it).

Cleric casts banish - DC 15 vs -1 CHA save = effective DC 16 so 75% success.

Banish plus twin Apes and 8 wolves or raptors looks pretty good to me ...

What would be better? Is my math right-ish?

[LordCdrMilitant]

Okay, read down further, objective is to destoy the giants, not just to escape.

All things considered, in order to plot tactical maneuver, I'd need to know where the trees are exactly.

That said, part 1 would be the barbarian not doing reckless attack and instead trying to keep themself alive. Part 2 would probably be to attack at range and kite, keeping the giant using their stone-throw ability ideally at 60+' range to minimize incoming damage and throwing summons in front of them to further tarpit their attacks.

[MaxWilson]

slow is a great spell, but the giants are 20 feet apart. We could get 2 of them or gamble and wait and see if they get closer together - but slowing 2 would be could - could impose a disadvantage on one w/ meta magic.

I think you might be able to get three if you turn the cube on its side, but you just made me realize: I could get more mileage out of Hypnotic Pattern by Readying Hypnotic Pattern instead of casting it immediately. They both have the same concentration cost so there's no real downside. Ready it to go off on [as many giants as possible, preferring the ones farther away from the Barbarian] when either (1) three giants are all at least partially within the same 30' cube, or (2) one of the giants moves to attack someone who isn't the Barbarian]. I would expect a DM to accept that as a reasonable trigger that my PC would be able to directly perceive.

[Kurt Kurageous]

Is it too late to change the name of the thread?

You are definitely talking tactics here, and tactics are as far from strategy as your local government is from the United Nations.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, read down further, objective is to destoy the giants, not just to escape.

All things considered, in order to plot tactical maneuver, I'd need to know where the trees are exactly.

That said, part 1 would be the barbarian not doing reckless attack and instead trying to keep themself alive. Part 2 would probably be to attack at range and kite, keeping the giant using their stone-throw ability ideally at 60+' range to minimize incoming damage and throwing summons in front of them to further tarpit their attacks.

I think the Barb's determination to commit suicide is part of the scenario, isn't it? It's not a tactical challenge where you control the whole team--I believe it's a tactical challenge where you're working around uncooperative teammates, as tends to happen in real life.

[Frogreaver]

I think it's worth running the numbers of the Twin Haste vs. action denial strategies to see which one ultimately uses less resources. My intuition tells me that taking giants out of the fight immediately is more valuable than slightly speeding up DPS, but I could be wrong.

In most cases I’d agree with hypnotic pattern Being better. I’m just not sure about this case. Maybe a twin banishment over a hypnotic pattern?

This is a fight I’m more concerned about the worst cases. A few good rolls by the giants. A few bad rolls by the PCs and whoever is their target could be nearly downed. Giants varying up tactics to say throw rocks at the Druid if they aren’t engaged in melee could also have a profound effect.

[MaxWilson]

In most cases I’d agree with hypnotic pattern Being better. I’m just not sure about this case. Maybe a twin banishment over a hypnotic pattern?

This is a fight I’m more concerned about the worst cases. A few good rolls by the giants. A few bad rolls by the PCs and whoever is their target could be nearly downed. Giants varying up tactics to say throw rocks at the Druid if they aren’t engaged in melee could also have a profound effect.

Yeah, Twin Banishment would definitely be better than (but 240% as expensive as) Hypnotic Pattern due to Stone Giants' low Cha save. I don't tend to learn Banishment, but if you have it it's definitely better in this case.

I'm not too concerned about worst-case scenarios in this fight because all that's at risk is HP, and it's not all that hard of a fight in the first place. It's not like the fight against the Nightwalker + Wraiths where perma-death was on the table.

[da newt]

Fair point - Tactics is a more correct term (vice strategy).

LordCdr - can you be more specific?

So if the Sorc will twin banishment (vice polymorph) - what will the others do? Are you suggesting Bless for cleric, conjure wolves for Druid, attack for Barb/Rogue?

So 30' cube = 42' diagonally, so just enough to target 3?

[KorvinStarmast]

slow is a great spell, but the giants are 20 feet apart. The cleric is supposed to banish 1, and the sorcerer slow the other two since Max reminded me that the Tasha's can't be a Sorcerer spell as a default.

I think the Barb's determination to commit suicide is part of the scenario, isn't it?
It's not a tactical challenge where you control the whole team--I believe it's a tactical challenge where you're working around uncooperative teammates, as tends to happen in real life. Cackled, I did. :smallbiggrin: Have you been watching our Thursday Night Games? :smallbiggrin:

[MaxWilson]

So 30' cube = 42' diagonally, so just enough to target 3?

Technically it's bigger than that if you tilt it right. A 30' cube is sqrt(30'^2+30'^2+30'^2) = 51.9' from lower right corner to upper left corner, for example, so in theory you've got 50' to play with. It's up to the DM though to decide if targeting a small fraction of a stone giant's body is enough to affect the whole stone giant with the stone. I would generally say "no, you have to affect the center of mass," but since you're the virtual DM of the thread it's up to you to decide what's possible.

[Valmark]

Technically it's bigger than that if you tilt it right. A 30' cube is sqrt(30'^2+30'^2+30'^2) = 51.9' from lower right corner to upper left corner, for example, so in theory you've got 50' to play with. It's up to the DM though to decide if targeting a small fraction of a stone giant's body is enough to affect the whole stone giant with the stone. I would generally say "no, you have to affect the center of mass," but since you're the virtual DM of the thread it's up to you to decide what's possible.

If it helps, according to another thread RAW the cube area affects any square it touches even if only a smidge.

[NecessaryWeevil]

My basic idea on this one is to Have sorc twin polymorph giant ape onto the rogue and barbarian. They would engage in melee 2 different stone giants. Druid would conjure wolves targeting the third stone giant. Cleric would cast bless (2nd level) on the 2 giant apes and Sorc and Druid.

Hypnotic pattern was a good idea but has a fairly high chance of failure (25% chance of affecting no stone giants)

Alternate cleric strategy over bless is to cast banishment on one. The stone giant has low charisma saves. 75% chance to be banished.

I'm missing something here...why is one 25% chance of failure less acceptable that the other 25% chance of failure?

[MaxWilson]

If it helps, according to another thread RAW the cube area affects any square it touches even if only a smidge.

Well, sort of. According to RAW the DM has a number of ways to choose to resolve it. Some of them say different things than others (you can ban spellcasting that doesn't snap to a grid; you can play Theater of the Mind; you can use token-counting; you can use templates; you can eyeball stuff and make a decision that seems realistic to you as DM), and then Sage Advice comes in and says something else on top of that ("cones affect every square they touch"), and ultimately it's still up to the DM which method to use and whether or not to pretend that giants are shaped like 15' x 15' x 15' Gelatinous Cubes for purposes of spell adjudication. :-)

For purposes of this thread I'm okay with whatever @da newt decides.


I'm missing something here...why is one 25% chance of failure less acceptable that the other 25% chance of failure?

I think it's because Hypnotic Pattern (1.0 targets affected on average, if it hits only two giants) is potentially competing with Twin Banishment (1.5 targets affected on average), whereas clerical Banishment (0.75 targets affected) is not competing with Twin Banishment. I.e. for the cleric it's "might as well Banish," although I think Command II: Flee is actually superior (1.0 targets affected on average) on top of being 50% cheaper.

I'm changing my tactic plan to:

Sorc: Ready Hypnotic Pattern (target maximum number of giants whenever all three giants are in the cube or a giant starts moving toward someone who isn't the Barb) and fallback/drop prone to protect concentration.
Cleric: Command II (Flee) and advance towards giants to draw fire/buy time. On subsequent rounds I might Toll the Dead or whatever, maybe even advance and Dodge to keep a giant occupied, depending on what happens elsewhere.
Moon Druid: Conjure Animals (as close as possible to giants) and fall back/drop prone to protect concentration.

[Frogreaver]

I'm missing something here...why is one 25% chance of failure less acceptable that the other 25% chance of failure?

Opportunity cost. Sorcerer can do something else highly effective like twin polymorph or haste. Cleric doesn’t have anything super effective that he could alternatively do.

————————————————————

So I’ve ran the twin polymorph+bless+conjure animals a few times. Assuming the party splits this into 1 giant vs 1 ape, and another giant vs 1 aoe and 1 giant vs 8 wolves so that No giant focus fires (assuming threat of OA’s from apes or wolves is enough to lock giants down (would be in my games). Casters then focus with cantrips on whatever ape has taken the most damage.

The party comes off having lost no actual hp in most simulations I’ve ran.

—————————————

@Max - Command flee won’t work unless your cleric speaks giant (fairly unlikely). By the stat block these giants only speak giant.

[Nhorianscum]

In another thread it was suggested that I could increase my combat skill from scenario discussions / duels. It was fun and interesting, so I thought I'd throw out another.

Scenario:
Your party - all lvl 7,
Bear Totem Barb, Maul, GWM, 15 AC
Thief Rogue, long bow, SS, 15 AC
Moon Druid, 17 AC
Draconic Sorc, 14 AC
Life Cleric, 18 AC

Bad guys - 3 Stone Giants

Environment - day time, normal visibility, you are in a box canyon, the giants are at the entrance 3 abreast 20' between them, your front line is 40' away, there is room to maneuver and a few small trees (rogue can hide), you are trapped.

Your Barb will reckless attack the closest giant, your rogue will hide and snipe. What will your Druid, Cleric, and Sorc do round by round, and most importantly WHY? What is your best strategy? What is the expected outcome?

(is my scenario fair)

Negotiate? Stone giants are reasonably chill dudes who mostly want to be left alone.

If that fails...

Round 1, Cleric casts bane, Sorcerer upcasts a 5th level heightened banishment holding action if nessecary it then full moves back and goes prone. Druid casts move earth in front of the prone sorc and also hides behind it. 3 stone giants fit the heuristic of "time to go nuts" for a sorc as it saves more resources over better economy party wide than the sorc expends.

Fight over.

Ok there's still one giant but it's almost certainly willing to talk now, if not, it's very, very, very, very, dead. As are its buddies when the sorcerer blinks them back into a deathtrap. (Provided these are native to the plane at all.)

There are other ways through this that involve more thinky or planning. I'm lazy, the sorc can do this (or similar) 3x a day this is a deadly++ encounter, this is default kit with MA existing. Hit button.

Edit: If you're wondering why the druid is casting move earth in front of a prone sorc instead of Canimals/etc the answer is "rocks hit really hard and the stone giant has something close to a 25% chance of dropping a rock on the sorc through disadvantage and shield. A high roll rock can just, body concentration through prof(con). (Anyone else concentrating on anything relevant without cover with more than 1 giant standing is probably eating something like 30-60 damage. Stone giants are low key brutal on casters.)

[MaxWilson]

@Max - Command flee won’t work unless your cleric speaks giant (fairly unlikely). By the stat block these giants only speak giant.

Good call. I never play clerics so forgot about that restriction.

I guess one of the big remaining questions is "is the Barbarian a willing or unwilling target for Polymorph?" : ) Assuming the answer is "willing", another question is "who should be the other Twin Polymorph target?" Since the Moon Druid is concentrating on Conjure Animals and the Sorcerer is concentrating on Twin Polymorph, I guess the Life Cleric and the Rogue are both candidates. I'm a cheapskate so I'm inclined to Polymorph the Cleric instead of having the Cleric cast a Banishment, while the Rogue plinks away with arrows, but I am not sure if that's the right choice.

Also, once a Stone Giant is prone, I think it potentially makes sense for one of the Giant Apes to grapple it to keep it prone, since that cuts it damage output by about 40% and lets you switch to killing other stone giants quickly. But don't do that if it's already almost dead (say, has taken 80+ damage).


There are other ways through this that involve more thinky or planning. I'm lazy. Also, how does draconic sorc have 14 AC?

Dex 12 maybe?

[Nhorianscum]

Dex 12 maybe?

Fair that.

[Frogreaver]

Good call. I never play clerics so forgot about that restriction.

I guess one of the big remaining questions is "is the Barbarian a willing or unwilling target for Polymorph?" : ) Assuming the answer is "willing", another question is "who should be the other Twin Polymorph target?" Since the Moon Druid is concentrating on Conjure Animals and the Sorcerer is concentrating on Twin Polymorph, I guess the Life Cleric and the Rogue are both candidates. I'm a cheapskate so I'm inclined to Polymorph the Cleric instead of having the Cleric cast a Banishment, while the Rogue plinks away with arrows, but I am not sure if that's the right choice.

Also, once a Stone Giant is prone, I think it potentially makes sense for one of the Giant Apes to grapple it to keep it prone, since that cuts it damage output by about 40% and lets you switch to killing other stone giants quickly. But don't do that if it's already almost dead (say, has taken 80+ damage).


Yea, I think Banishment on the cleric is better than bless but it's a big resource for little gain when I believe I'm already consistently beating the giants without any hp loss. Resource expenditure = level 2, level 3 and level 4 spell slots, 4 sorcery points. Bless was to help the apes hit the giants and help the casters with the important spells keep from losing concentration if the giants decided to throw a rock at them.

I had the rogue be polymorphed in my example. Though all said it may have been slightly more effective and efficient to polymorph the cleric and let the rogue attack. I was trying to preempt enemy strategies like taking an OA for a chance to throw a rock at a caster. If that rock hits and concentration is lost the fight suddenly turns into a much larger resource drain.

I'm also not sure that trying to pile all your melee on a single giant will be a more effective strategy. You'll take the first giant down much faster, but leaving 2 giants with no real OA threat does leave those 2 giants to have free reign on the casters. It's not obvious that's a good tactical tradeoff.

[MaxWilson]

I'm also not sure that trying to pile all your melee on a single giant will be a more effective strategy. You'll take the first giant down much faster, but leaving 2 giants with no real OA threat does leave those 2 giants to have free reign on the casters. It's not obvious that's a good tactical tradeoff.

I think we need a map to answer this question, because it really depends on who is where and how far away.

[Frogreaver]

I think we need a map to answer this question, because it really depends on who is where and how far away.

I play mostly Theatre of the Mind. A map would actually detract from the scenario for me :smallwink:

[Nhorianscum]

Yea, I think Banishment on the cleric is better than bless but it's a big resource for little gain when I believe I'm already consistently beating the giants without any hp loss. Resource expenditure = level 2, level 3 and level 4 spell slots, 4 sorcery points. Bless was to help the apes hit the giants and help the casters with the important spells keep from losing concentration if the giants decided to throw a rock at them.

I had the rogue be polymorphed in my example. Though all said it may have been slightly more effective and efficient to polymorph the cleric and let the rogue attack. I was trying to preempt enemy strategies like taking an OA for a chance to throw a rock at a caster. If that rock hits and concentration is lost the fight suddenly turns into a much larger resource drain.

I'm also not sure that trying to pile all your melee on a single giant will be a more effective strategy. You'll take the first giant down much faster, but leaving 2 giants with no real OA threat does leave those 2 giants to have free reign on the casters. It's not obvious that's a good tactical tradeoff.

Just gonna leave this here...

https://www.themonstersknow.com/giant-tactics/

(Stone giant tactics can be really fun)

[MaxWilson]

I play mostly Theatre of the Mind. A map would actually detract from the scenario for me :smallwink:

You don't ever use maps when you TotM?

[Unoriginal]

Just gonna leave this here...

https://www.themonstersknow.com/giant-tactics/

(Stone giant tactics can be really fun)

The Monsters Know What They're Doing have some good insight, but also pretty weird assumptions.


I mean, saying that Hill Giants are "barely sentient"...

[Frogreaver]

You don't ever use maps when you TotM?

Not battlemaps.

[Nhorianscum]

The Monsters Know What They're Doing have some good insight, but also pretty weird assumptions.


I mean, saying that Hill Giants are "barely sentient"...

It's a nice base to kinda discuss "what the giant do" from.

[OgataiKhan]

Druid casts Conjure Animals for 8 CR 1/4 beasts with the intention of sending them to tank and attack, then moves away and attempts to hide or dodges next turn. Maintaining concentration on Conjure Animals will make the fight significantly easier. Resummon them when needed.

Sorcerer twins Banishment on the giants or Haste on the Barb and Rogue, enabling the Rogue to deal Sneak Attack damage twice per round. Banishment should be the stronger option here. Assuming a DC of 15 the giants have a 25% chance of passing the save, or a 6.25% chance of neither being affected.

If at least one giant passed the save, the Cleric attempts to Banish it. Otherwise they cast Sanctuary on the Sorcerer.

Chances are the fight is now 13 vs 1, an easy win.

[Valmark]

Sorcerer twins Banishment on the giants or Haste on the Barb and Rogue, enabling the Rogue to deal Sneak Attack damage twice per round.

How is Haste enabling a second Sneak Attack?

Anyway for me... Think I'd have the cleric pop Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon. Subsequent turns cast whatever you need, probably damage spells/cantrips.

My first thoughts for the sorcerer are to Twin Polymorph and boost their damage and hp (I think they have a better damage anyway). Follow with damage spells. Can't remember the cost in Sorcery points, but if one of the two gets knocked out of Polymorph then go with Hypnotic Pattern (Sculpted) or maybe Tasha's. If only one remains just wail on them.

Druid casts Conjure Animals. Again when animals start dwindling too much to keep the giants still. Otherwise, damage spells/cantrips.

[OgataiKhan]

How is Haste enabling a second Sneak Attack?

You attack with the Haste action, deal Sneak Attack damage, then you ready your regular action to attack just after your turn ends for a second Sneak Attack in the same round.

[da newt]

Nhorianscum - is your Sorc casting a 5th level spell at 7th lvl (or did I read your post wrong)? "I'm lazy, the sorc can do this (or similar) 3x a day" I don't follow. The Sorc should have 1 4th lvl spell slot only, right?


Sorc casts twin Banishment: 56% 2 banished, 6% none are banished, 37% one is banished. (IF the Cleric banishes too, if one or both make save: 14% one is left, 1.5% 2 are left.) IF you do succeed in banishing 2, what have you accomplished beyond banishing one? I mean, for 1 minute you only have to deal with only 1 giant, but then when the spell ends, you have 2 giants to deal with at the same time again. (or you spend a few rounds taking out one, and then run for a few rounds before the others return and try run you down and extract their revenge, but say 7 rounds of dashing will get you a pretty good head start)


Max - yup, if you tilt and rotate your 30' cube you can get max distance in 3d to 52' (but my DM would never go for it).

I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

[Frogreaver]

Nhorianscum - is your Sorc casting a 5th level spell at 7th lvl (or did I read your post wrong)? "I'm lazy, the sorc can do this (or similar) 3x a day" I don't follow. The Sorc should have 1 4th lvl spell slot only, right?


Sorc casts twin Banishment: 56% 2 banished, 6% none are banished, 37% one is banished. (IF the Cleric banishes too, if one or both make save: 14% one is left, 1.5% 2 are left.) IF you do succeed in banishing 2, what have you accomplished beyond banishing one? I mean, for 1 minute you only have to deal with only 1 giant, but then when the spell ends, you have 2 giants to deal with at the same time again. (or you spend a few rounds taking out one, and then run for a few rounds before the others return and try run you down and extract their revenge, but say 7 rounds of dashing will get you a pretty good head start)


Max - yup, if you tilt and rotate your 30' cube you can get max distance in 3d to 52' (but my DM would never go for it).

I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

Banishing 1 or 2 works. If one is banished then cleric banishes the other. If 2 are banished then cleric banishes the other when they reappear. I still donÂ’t see this being more effective than the polymorph setup though.

If the apes can move between 2 giants and thatÂ’s a big if by my understanding of initial setup then I agree thatÂ’s the optimal placement. IÂ’d don2 apes between the same 2 giants and summoned wolves on the other.

[MaxWilson]

Not battlemaps.

How do you efficiently predict whether e.g. the giants are going to be in range to melee attack the sorcerer if he retreats 30' and drops prone? Do you just ask the DM ad hoc? I find that works well in small/simple fights, but in complex fights where kiting is involved, diagrams are the most efficient way I know to convey information between DM and player.

In any case, whether the information is conveyed via map or not, we need answers on those types of questions to judge the right tactics.



I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

I agree, focus fire is best in this situation. Position yourself as best you can to delay / opportunity attack any giants who try to ignore you and go for the spellcasters, but your top priority is turning 3 giants into 2 giants ASAP.

[Nhorianscum]

Nhorianscum - is your Sorc casting a 5th level spell at 7th lvl (or did I read your post wrong)? "I'm lazy, the sorc can do this (or similar) 3x a day" I don't follow. The Sorc should have 1 4th lvl spell slot only, right?


Sorc casts twin Banishment: 56% 2 banished, 6% none are banished, 37% one is banished. (IF the Cleric banishes too, if one or both make save: 14% one is left, 1.5% 2 are left.) IF you do succeed in banishing 2, what have you accomplished beyond banishing one? I mean, for 1 minute you only have to deal with only 1 giant, but then when the spell ends, you have 2 giants to deal with at the same time again. (or you spend a few rounds taking out one, and then run for a few rounds before the others return and try run you down and extract their revenge, but say 7 rounds of dashing will get you a pretty good head start)


Max - yup, if you tilt and rotate your 30' cube you can get max distance in 3d to 52' (but my DM would never go for it).

I agree - 2 apes vs 1 giant would only be superior IF the giants were not trying to target the casters, but with the HUGE Giant Ape's 10' reach you ought to be able to position to keep 2 giants in melee (Op Att threat and DISADV to throw rocks) but focus all attacks on one to eliminate it first, vice divide your attacks between two increasing the number of attacks they can make before going down, right? Maybe even grapple. My point being a 1v1 Ape v giant (with no outside help) is a even fight, but if 2 apes all attack one giant (and just eat the attacks of the other), then tag team the remaining giant, it's much better for team Ape.

Yes, sorcerers can do that by just forcibly creating a 5th level slot with font of magic. Generally we just bank a 5th immediately after a SR and reload SP off "dead" slots. It's a known bit of play optimization.

Heightened, bane boosted, 5th level banish is just "giants go bye bye". There's a chance that one saves but it's laughably small.

As for 2 over 1, action economy. Giants hit hard and with 2 in play they really can just randomly off a player or just end concentration with a well tossed rock. With 1 banished there is significant risk of player death. With 2 banished there is negligable risk.

Giant dies because rouge+barb+whatever can just dumpster it in 2 rounds. The other 2 die because we have 8 rounds to just play jigsaw. That said stone giants are smart and generally know when to talk or run. It's a nonfight.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Banishing 1 or 2 works. If one is banished then cleric banishes the other. If 2 are banished then cleric banishes the other when they reappear. I still donÂ’t see this being more effective than the polymorph setup though.

If the apes can move between 2 giants and thatÂ’s a big if by my understanding of initial setup then I agree thatÂ’s the optimal placement. IÂ’d don2 apes between the same 2 giants and summoned wolves on the other.

Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.

[MaxWilson]

Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.

Sorc is only maligned relative to wizard and sometimes bard, especially at high levels. Not surprising to see a level 7 sorc being valuable in a party where there's no bard or wizard. Level 7 is also a sweet spot for sorcs because Twin Polymorph just came online.

[Nhorianscum]

Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.

Sorc is just the often-disputed-by-people-who-are-wrong king/queen of combat casting from level 7-12 even as an unoptimized base class.

Solid points on the polymorph are made and agreed with. It would be nice to see a heuristic for the enemies in threads like this.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Sorc is just the often-disputed-by-people-who-are-wrong king/queen of combat casting from level 7-12 even as an unoptimized base class.

Solid points on the polymorph are made and agreed with. It would be nice to see a heuristic for the enemies in threads like this.

I'll take that challenge. I'd say the only small chance the Giants have (assuming good play from the party) is to win initiative (at least vs. the Sorcerer). They have 40' of movement and 15' of reach, so if the front line is 40' away with luck they can advance and kill the biggest threat (D. Sorc) in round 1. Then move on to the next squishiest biggest threat. That is likely the Cleric, particularly if he/she gets off a Banishment. Disrupting concentration or better yet outright killing the Cleric is the next goal. The giants need to be willing to risk being hit by opportunity attacks in order to concentrate damage on 1 character at a time to have any chance.
If the sorcerer wins initiative using one of the decent strategies already discussed, then backs up and goes prone or behind a tree I see no winning strategy for the Giants.

[Nhorianscum]

I'll take that challenge. I'd say the only small chance the Giants have (assuming good play from the party) is to win initiative (at least vs. the Sorcerer). They have 40' of movement and 15' of reach, so if the front line is 40' away with luck they can advance and kill the biggest threat (D. Sorc) in round 1. Then move on to the next squishiest biggest threat. That is likely the Cleric, particularly if he/she gets off a Banishment. Disrupting concentration or better yet outright killing the Cleric is the next goal. The giants need to be willing to risk being hit by opportunity attacks in order to concentrate damage on 1 character at a time to have any chance.
If the sorcerer wins initiative using one of the decent strategies already discussed, then backs up and goes prone or behind a tree I see no winning strategy for the Giants.

I sorta agree and disagree with the above, the giants are smart but... not quite smart enough to read our character sheets so by the time they go "oh sheets and blankets that thing can double down on 4th level spells" they're probably in a very rough spot.

I guess my take would be...

By showing up at the opening of the canyon and forgoing their giant rock from hiding approach I sorta feel like the giants are by default going to lose the fight.

So let's change that, assuming they win initiative I sorta feel like they're best choice is to just full move back and then hide in the rocky terrain. With luck this might allow them to just instablick an overly zealous PC or two from full into "actually dead". Moving forward sorta denies any chance at survival for the giants.

If the casters move up then they really can just outright die to big rocks, if anyone else moves up the giants can just curb stomp that PC into paste and then book it to reset this scenario in their favor with their 240 ft range.

Assuming the giants lose initiative and are in some sort of suicide pact where their only goal is to mangle PC's I'd just have them running past the barb taking OA's to gangstomp PC's into "just dead" until one side dies. If this routine is broken by a caster out of stomping range the giant(s) just unconditionally hurl rocks till that caster goes down.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I sorta agree and disagree with the above, the giants are smart but... not quite smart enough to read our character sheets so by the time they go "oh sheets and blankets that thing can double down on 4th level spells" they're probably in a very rough spot.

I guess my take would be...

By showing up at the opening of the canyon and forgoing their giant rock from hiding approach I sorta feel like the giants are by default going to lose the fight.

So let's change that, assuming they win initiative I sorta feel like they're best choice is to just full move back and then hide in the rocky terrain. With luck this might allow them to just instablick an overly zealous PC or two from full into "actually dead". Moving forward sorta denies any chance at survival for the giants.

If the casters move up then they really can just outright die to big rocks, if anyone else moves up the giants can just curb stomp that PC into paste and then book it to reset this scenario in their favor with their 240 ft range.

Assuming the giants lose initiative and are in some sort of suicide pact where their only goal is to mangle PC's I'd just have them running past the barb taking OA's to gangstomp PC's into "just dead" until one side dies. If this routine is broken by a caster out of stomping range the giant(s) just unconditionally hurl rocks till that caster goes down.

I'm aware there was a whole lot of DM metagaming in what I wrote and I'd likely never just do this. However, maybe the Giants have encountered humanoids before and are able to work out that the biggest threats are probably going to be the casters in the second row. In that case as a more fair DM I could fairly just roll a dice to see which one they try and off first.

I did read the hide thing and figured that was how they got to within 40' in the first place before detection. Obviously it would be better if they were able to hide well enough that the group passed them by and they were able to directly attack the rear (perhaps with surprise). In that situation the battle turns into more of a coin flip, as 1 or more characters are likely downed before they can even act.

I had thought about the Giants backing up, and I agree it could work, but relies on a mistake by 1 or more PCs. Also, the most likely dead PC in that scenario is the Barb who is probably the least valuable and most replacable (by Polymorph), meaning the Giants still likely lose.

[da newt]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

[Nhorianscum]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

This is a fun concept for a series and I've enjoyed it. As is the current situation is pretty solved.

As a deadly encounter triple stone giants is actually pretty rough.

My critique is that the terrain for some enemies is really relevant and it felt like the choice here had the giants going from their cap of "potentially campain ending" to "it's sorcin time".

Similarly a heuristic for the enemies would be good to have.

If we make this a running thing I'd like to have the "winning" plan rolled out as a bit of a story to close out each thread.

@5eNeedsDarkSun: For clarity I did enjoy your post and agree with the concept. The giants are just in a really awkward spot both spatially and with regards to the objective.

[ThatoneGuy84]

I mean, assuming you simply want to beat the encounter and get away.
Twin banishment
Cleric casts banishment on 3rd giant.
Your no longer trapped, giving you time to get out of the box, set up the battlefield in a more suiting manor if you want to, or leave completely (LoLing the whole walk away)

Assuming we skip this options (cause that's to easy)


Do the trees provide cover? Partial cover? The rogue can hide behind them so I'll assume they are at least going to grant partial cover for the Sorc, Druid, Cleric. Increasing the effective AC they have very rocks.

Barbarian is out main front line, but someone need to go with him, Clerics the best option because he doesnt have much to do in this fight.

Initiative order is (no polymorph no banishment in this scene)
Sorc goes first, Twin haste Barb and Rogue and steps behind tree and lays down (partial cover + disadvantage)
Barb - Bonus action rage, run in attacking recklessly. Let's be real, this is pretty much all he will be doing.
Rogue - he will be skirting in and out of hiding, hopeful giving himself advantage while utilizing SS to hit hard on the main Giant the barb is attacking (hopefully with GWM and reckless himself)
Since they have a net +10 Dmg per attack.
Druid will be casting - Wall of fire, separating the 2 giants from the main giant target, (ringed wall if you can manage to cut 2 off with it, fire facing away from your Barbarian. Then lays down behind a tree.
Cleric Casts Guardian of Faith, somewhere Near the wall, but between the giant that we are focusing fire on, and the other giants to punish them more for coming closer.

Round 2, casters with concentration spells will spend 1/2 movement getting up from behind tree. Peak and shoot cantrips, always returning to prone behind trees. (this will be the job they do for most the combat) - unless giants break thru wall of fire. Then druid will swap tactic to Conjure animals to provide more meat shields.

Cleric will now cast spirit guardians, punishing the Giants more if they get closer to him, he has now joined the Barb completely in front line fighting, forcing dmg on the nearly dead giant that's the initial target.

Since the Cleric doesnt have a tonne of dmg, his job at this point is to take the dodge action or heal the Barbarian when needed. His dmg dealers are up and running for the time being.

Assuming 20 stat, and recklessing with GWM/SS advantage, no magic weapons (roll needs 14+ with advantage or higher to hit each attack)
Barb can output 2d6 or 1d12 + 17 x 3 per round
Rouge can output 1d6 +15 x 2 per round + 4d6 sneak.
Cleric is putting in 20 straight dmg for 3 rounds
+ 3d8 (save for half) after round 2
Wall is initially 5d8 (save for half) then druid is cantrip locked for 2d8 (produce flame)
Sorc is locked Cantrips (quicken for 2 if hes feeling spicy)
This will make for a bit of a resource heavy encounter this way, but the win will be satisfying. (Also I never seen a Sorc take banishment in my life LOL)

[Asisreo1]

My first question: is this balanced?

Yes, yet it's still deadly. From this alone, I predict we'll be able to win with a reasonable degree of certainty, though the swing of dice can still cause a loss.

The party's encounter exp for deadly equals 8500 exp and their adventuring day exp is 25000.

The giants have an adjusted exp score of 17,400. This means it's a decent challenge but it isn't necessarily overwhelming.

So, I'd say this fight is fair. No need to fret on that front.

[Asisreo1]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?
Very good read. Wasn't able to contribute this time, unfortunately.

For the next one (or the one after), my suggestion would be to change some things up. Maybe next encounter is "hard" but the enemy forces have such good positioning and buffs that it still provides a challenge. Or maybe I should come up with one...hmm...

[MaxWilson]

Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

I like it. I like it even more when people run scenarios in detail, because for me my favorite stuff to learn is the tricky little stuff (like Readying your Hypnotic Pattern to hit more giants), and I don't tend to learn that stuff without detail. For example, potentially in this scenario, we could have bought more rounds to kill giants by stationing a wolf in the right place on the map where the giant (1) has to treat it as difficult terrain, and (2) cannot stop on its square, and is therefore "forced" to attack the wolf instead of Dashing up to a sorcerer and braining him. We didn't get to see that because we just talked high-level intentions instead of how things actually play out.

Nevertheless I did enjoy it and learned some things. Wouldn't mind doing more of these, I just think it's better practice when posters actually run the combat before posting, which means they need enough detail to do so if they want to. (Detail about starting positions, monster behavior/tactics***, what spells are available, which allies are "under your control" for this scenario and which ones you just have to work around, etc.)

*** Yes, monster tactics is not normally something players can know any more than you can know your chess opponent's tactics, but the way you deal in a discussion like this with that is by practicing against several possible variations on what they COULD do, and finding which tactics are strongest against you so you can try to steer monsters into using different, weaker tactics.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This is a fun concept for a series and I've enjoyed it. As is the current situation is pretty solved.

As a deadly encounter triple stone giants is actually pretty rough.

My critique is that the terrain for some enemies is really relevant and it felt like the choice here had the giants going from their cap of "potentially campain ending" to "it's sorcin time".

Similarly a heuristic for the enemies would be good to have.

If we make this a running thing I'd like to have the "winning" plan rolled out as a bit of a story to close out each thread.

@5eNeedsDarkSun: For clarity I did enjoy your post and agree with the concept. The giants are just in a really awkward spot both spatially and with regards to the objective.

I'm left thinking that there are 3 critical factors largely out of the control of the players (2 in control of the DM) that can move this encounter from the dangerous but manageable category to likely TPK.
1) The initial setup: It would be reasonable to allow the Giants to hide using their advantage and potentially earn Surprise in an ambush.

2) How much the DM concentrates attacks on the right characters early on in the battle.

3) The initiative roll of the Giants: arguably the most important roll of the encounter.

If all 3 of these things swing in favor of the Giants they get 2 rounds of attacks first. The Sorc and Cleric never get to act and one of the other 3 could be in bad shape by the time the party can react.
As a DM I'm reminded that both sides can over or under perform based largely on how the encounter starts and by how intelligent you play the monsters.

[JackPhoenix]

It's a nice base to kinda discuss "what the giant do" from.

Not really. They assume anyone with mental stat <12 is an idiot, which is.... eh. Their tactics are based on fales premises.

[Nhorianscum]

Not really. They assume anyone with mental stat <12 is an idiot, which is.... eh. Their tactics are based on fales premises.

This is an adequate description of most parties.

Where it dooooes soooorta hold true...

On a serious note:

I'm not fully in agreement with the blog either because human being with opinions, but it is well written, entertaining, and gives a base for discussing heuristics as the writer lays out a thought process and goes about breaking down the monster(s) of the week in a formulaic manner that is replicable by the average reader.

It's really good.

[Frogreaver]

How is Haste enabling a second Sneak Attack?

Use the haste action to attack on your turn. Use your action to ready an attack to trigger before your next turn (whatever appropriate trigger works in your game)


Interesting that both good strategies revolve around what the (often maligned) Sorc does with the 4th (or 5th) level spell slot; I agree by the way.
The only thing I'd add is that with the Polymorph option I generally wait a round or 2 for a couple of reasons: 1) Whatever character(s) are being polymorphed have more options and generally do more damage in normal form than in ape,potentially taking down enemies faster 2) It frees the sorcerer up to directly deal damage sooner, say fireball or some other 3rd level spell in this case, potentially taking down enemies faster, and 3) You can never 100% predict which of the party will be targeted or hit badly, so it allows you to Polymorph character(s) that most need the hp.

While fair tactical points in general, I think the specifics of this situation actually make them worse.

Following your path would likely lead to a greater number of lost resources. Significant hp loss for 1 or multiple characters - potentially spell slot resource drain to bring them back to full hp. Then using a 3rd level slot on fireball before the polymorh uses even more spell slot resources.

Compare with the plymorph first tactic that doesn't require fireball and leads to none to very minimal PC hp loss.


I like it. I like it even more when people run scenarios in detail, because for me my favorite stuff to learn is the tricky little stuff (like Readying your Hypnotic Pattern to hit more giants), and I don't tend to learn that stuff without detail. For example, potentially in this scenario, we could have bought more rounds to kill giants by stationing a wolf in the right place on the map where the giant (1) has to treat it as difficult terrain, and (2) cannot stop on its square, and is therefore "forced" to attack the wolf instead of Dashing up to a sorcerer and braining him. We didn't get to see that because we just talked high-level intentions instead of how things actually play out.

Generally the problem with readying an aoe spell to try to catch more enemies is that unless the initiative fell just perfectly then your allies are very likely to get in the way - causing you to either hit them or settle for the same or fewer enemies then you could have gotten to begin with. And there's always the inherent risk of ranged attacks to disrupt your concentration before the spell goes off. In this specific scenario it's likely the Barbarian engages in melee and so your best laid plans to catch all 3 in the AOE probably won't work.

I don't know if this is an actual rule or not but in the games I play in and run a medium creature isn't going to prevent a huge creatures movement in the slightest. As long as the huge creature doesn't stop in the space he's free to move through it as if you weren't. He will still take the OA though. Assuming we aren't playing by my "walk over them" rule then having a wolf serve as a blocker would work. Alternatively the cleric could as well.

Another fun thing is that characters can serve as 1/2 cover. So positioning the cleric in front of the sorcerer gives him +2 AC vs ranged attacks and may have a bit of a body blocking function as well.


Good discussions all around, and I learned something - I hope you all did too.

I went with a ~ deadly encounter (1700&*5 vs 2900*3), maybe I should have gone w/ 4 giants or more 'interesting' opponents ...

Is this sort of thread worthwhile / interesting for you all? I like it.

So what next? Should we continue to rehash this, or start a new thread with a new challenge / scenario?

This is fun. I'm personally interested in lower resource cost solutions than the ones we used. Using so many of the sorcerers resources is a little rough - albeit most effective.

[da newt]

Thanks all.

I'm no expert, so I don't think I can provide a right answer at the end. I do like seeing what other folks would do and why. I have some free time, I can roll some of these out, but welcome other to give it a shot too.

Max - wolf is med, giant is huge, so they can move through each other's space, but difficult terrain and cannot end turn in same space - a huge creature occupies a 15x15 ft space, so it costs the giant an extra 15' of movement to step over a wolf (RAW)? If I was DM I might hand wave that away as silly - for my simple mind, the idea that a 30" at the shoulder 90 lb wolf slows down an 18' tall giant is like 10" tall Pomeranians slowing me down ... but point taken - RAW you would be able to slow them down with a well placed picket of conjured animals.

I envisioned the trees/bushes as big enough to provide visual cover, but insignificant cover for a giant thrown rock - I should have specified. Next time I'll try to fill in more blanks - bad guy's combat heuristics, specific distances, etc.

[Frogreaver]

...
Barbarian is out main front line, but someone need to go with him, Clerics the best option because he doesnt have much to do in this fight.
...


So the Barbarian takes about 18 damage per turn per giant (when he has haste and rage and reckless attacks). If all 3 attack him that's 55 damage on average to him on turn 1. He only has 75 hp. Unless he gets healed significantly he's downed on turn 2...

[MaxWilson]

I don't know if this is an actual rule or not but in the games I play in and run a medium creature isn't going to prevent a huge creatures movement in the slightest. As long as the huge creature doesn't stop in the space he's free to move through it as if you weren't. He will still take the OA though. Assuming we aren't playing by my "walk over them" rule then having a wolf serve as a blocker would work. Alternatively the cleric could as well.

Your rule is indeed a variant. The vanilla rule is that enemy creatures are difficult terrain, and you can't stop in their squares. Depending on what the geometry is, that could potentially add 20' to 30' plus 5' of difficult terrain to the path a giant would need to take to get within melee range of the sorc (and remember that even in melee, if he isn't within 5' he takes disadvantage against a prone target).

RE: holding spells, with only one PC in melee, and the given trigger, I don't anticipate a friendly fire problem. But without a map it's impossible to say for sure.



Max - wolf is med, giant is huge, so they can move through each other's space, but difficult terrain and cannot end turn in same space - a huge creature occupies a 15x15 ft space, so it costs the giant an extra 15' of movement to step over a wolf (RAW)?

RAW doesn't actually say AFAIK how to treat difficult terrain for creatures that occupy more than one square. (I even checked the DMG but found nothing helpful.) The way I tend to run it is that you pay the difficult terrain penalty for a square only when entering it for the first time, so a wolf would only cost you an extra 5', not 15'.

Let's do another challenge!

[ThatoneGuy84]

So the Barbarian takes about 18 damage per turn per giant (when he has haste and rage and reckless attacks). If all 3 attack him that's 55 damage on average to him on turn 1. He only has 75 hp. Unless he gets healed significantly he's downed on turn 2...

Ignoring all things I put that will make the other 2 giants hesitate running forward at the barbarian, and ignoring the cleric that's also in the front line. Sure.

But also that is the Barbarians job

[Frogreaver]

Ignoring all things I put that will make the other 2 giants hesitate running forward at the barbarian, and ignoring the cleric that's also in the front line. Sure.

But also that is the Barbarians job

IMO the alternative is almost certainly worse... let's assume you've deterred them from going at the barbarian, is it a better case that the other 2 giants advance toward the sorcerer and druid and freely toss rocks at them?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Use the haste action to attack on your turn. Use your action to ready an attack to trigger before your next turn (whatever appropriate trigger works in your game)



While fair tactical points in general, I think the specifics of this situation actually make them worse.

Following your path would likely lead to a greater number of lost resources. Significant hp loss for 1 or multiple characters - potentially spell slot resource drain to bring them back to full hp. Then using a 3rd level slot on fireball before the polymorh uses even more spell slot resources.

Compare with the plymorph first tactic that doesn't require fireball and leads to none to very minimal PC hp loss.



Generally the problem with readying an aoe spell to try to catch more enemies is that unless the initiative fell just perfectly then your allies are very likely to get in the way - causing you to either hit them or settle for the same or fewer enemies then you could have gotten to begin with. And there's always the inherent risk of ranged attacks to disrupt your concentration before the spell goes off. In this specific scenario it's likely the Barbarian engages in melee and so your best laid plans to catch all 3 in the AOE probably won't work.

I don't know if this is an actual rule or not but in the games I play in and run a medium creature isn't going to prevent a huge creatures movement in the slightest. As long as the huge creature doesn't stop in the space he's free to move through it as if you weren't. He will still take the OA though. Assuming we aren't playing by my "walk over them" rule then having a wolf serve as a blocker would work. Alternatively the cleric could as well.

Another fun thing is that characters can serve as 1/2 cover. So positioning the cleric in front of the sorcerer gives him +2 AC vs ranged attacks and may have a bit of a body blocking function as well.



This is fun. I'm personally interested in lower resource cost solutions than the ones we used. Using so many of the sorcerers resources is a little rough - albeit most effective.

I'm going to disagree that the polymorph first strategy uses less resources and results in less hp loss. Mainly this is due to me assuming at least a moderate degree of intelligent play by the Giants. Even if they don't work out right away that the spellcasters are the big threats, it is more than fair to assume when they see one of the characters cast a spell that turns 1 or 2 of the others into big apes they will target that character. By ignoring any sack of HP that looks like a big ape and either stoning the caster or taking OA to get to him/her the characters could be back in a bit of a bind. They are still likely to win as the odds are with them, but they could be in a situation with no Sorc, no polymorph, and some less injured Giants than would have been the case if they'd just acted as characters.

[Frogreaver]

I'm going to disagree that the polymorph first strategy uses less resources and results in less hp loss. Mainly this is due to me assuming at least a moderate degree of intelligent play by the Giants. Even if they don't work out right away that the spellcasters are the big threats, it is more than fair to assume when they see one of the characters cast a spell that turns 1 or 2 of the others into big apes they will target that character. By ignoring any sack of HP that looks like a big ape and either stoning the caster or taking OA to get to him/her the characters could be back in a bit of a bind. They are still likely to win as the odds are with them, but they could be in a situation with no Sorc, no polymorph, and some less injured Giants than would have been the case if they'd just acted as characters.

I don't think that is correct. So let's walk through this.

Turn 1 party.
Sorc polymorphs rogue and barbarian into giant apes. Move back such that he is about 70-80ft from the apes and drops prone.
Cleric casts bless on the apes and sorc and druid and moves to stand in front of the sorc to provide him with 1/2 cover.
Barbarian Giant ape goes and attacks 1 of the apes standing between it and the casters so the giant would need to go around said ape.
Rogue Giant ape does the same to another.
Druid conjures 8 wolves around another, that attack him and likely proning him. He then move back from the giants to about 60ft and drops prone.

Please tell me what your plan for the turn 1 giants is that takes into account this situation. I would love to hear it.

[da newt]

I'd think modifying Frog's round one to have the Cleric cast banish would make it even more optimal - 75% chance that you'll only have to deal w/ 2 Giants for a while.

I can't see how two giant apes are easier to ignore than a piddly med sized Barb (who they don't even have to move around - they can just step over) and a rogue (who hides). Also apes in melee range = DISADV for stone throwing.



BTW - I posted a new challenge.

[Frogreaver]

I'd think modifying Frog's round one to have the Cleric cast banish would make it even more optimal - 75% chance that you'll only have to deal w/ 2 Giants for a while.

I can't see how two giant apes are easier to ignore than a piddly med sized Barb (who they don't even have to move around - they can just step over) and a rogue (who hides). Also apes in melee range = DISADV for stone throwing.



BTW - I posted a new challenge.

Yea, if you do the banish option there's a good chance you have 2 mostly healthy giant apes for the next hour.

I've seen your new challenge. It doesn't have as sure of an answer so I'm thinking it through more. I imagine that's what most are doing.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't think that is correct. So let's walk through this.

Turn 1 party.
Sorc polymorphs rogue and barbarian into giant apes. Move back such that he is about 70-80ft from the apes and drops prone.
Cleric casts bless on the apes and sorc and druid and moves to stand in front of the sorc to provide him with 1/2 cover.
Barbarian Giant ape goes and attacks 1 of the apes standing between it and the casters so the giant would need to go around said ape.
Rogue Giant ape does the same to another.
Druid conjures 8 wolves around another, that attack him and likely proning him. He then move back from the giants to about 60ft and drops prone.

Please tell me what your plan for the turn 1 giants is that takes into account this situation. I would love to hear it.

First this assumes the Giants lose initiative against every single character. As they are already outgunned the party will likely win no matter what tactics they employ at this point. I think for future scenarios it would be wise for the poster to give the initiative order as it is crucial to tactics/ outcome.
Second I've never played in a game where summoned creatures can attack on the round they are summoned, so I'm going to ignore the bit about the wolves proning a Giant. (Also RAW I get it, but Med creature knocking a Huge down... I'd at least give the huge Advantage meaning 2 rolls to get a 5)
Regardless, the Giants best chance is still to kill/ disrupt casters. Whether that is advancing and throwing rocks at the Cleric needing 10s or the Sorc needing 12s at disadvantage, or the Druid needing (can't remember) at disadvantage. I'd likely go for the Cleric first since no disadvantage. 2 rocks at an average of 56 hp may kill any one of the 3 depending on Con and damage rolls. It goes from there. Again party is likely to win, but the Giants should under no circumstances hit Apes. Also if characters are going prone, no point in advancing and taking OA since it's disadvantage anyway.

[Frogreaver]

First this assumes the Giants lose initiative against every single character.

No assumption. That is the scenario that was presented.


As they are already outgunned the party will likely win no matter what tactics they employ at this point. I think for future scenarios it would be wise for the poster to give the initiative order as it is crucial to tactics/ outcome.

Agreed. I think he did list the initiatve order in this one after being asked about it.


Second I've never played in a game where summoned creatures can attack on the round they are summoned, so I'm going to ignore the bit about the wolves proning a Giant. (Also RAW I get it, but Med creature knocking a Huge down... I'd at least give the huge Advantage meaning 2 rolls to get a 5)

I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.


Regardless, the Giants best chance is still to kill/ disrupt casters. Whether that is advancing and throwing rocks at the Cleric needing 10s or the Sorc needing 12s at disadvantage, or the Druid needing (can't remember) at disadvantage. I'd likely go for the Cleric first since no disadvantage. 2 rocks at an average of 56 hp may kill any one of the 3 depending on Con and damage rolls. It goes from there. Again party is likely to win, but the Giants should under no circumstances hit Apes. Also if characters are going prone, no point in advancing and taking OA since it's disadvantage anyway.

If the Giants don't move away from the Giant Ape's / wolves the attacks will be at disadvantage. You can forgo the disadvantage on the cleric by taking OA's. I'm assuming that's what you will do. That leaves the giants on the apes as having lost around 1/3 of their hp.

The cleric has a good chance of being downed (20-25%). He is almost certain to lose bless. He has around a 40% chance of having around 10ish hp left. Only a 6.4% chance that all attacks miss.

Nice Giant turn. I'm going to go with the 10hp scenario as that was the most likely. one from above. Cleric will action channel divinity heal to 32 hp. He will then cast sanctuary on himself and fall back and drop prone. Apes will position themselves to block giants again and attack them more. wolves will continue after the giant they are on. Druid should dash back 30 ft and fall prone. Sorcerer will dash back 30 ft and drop prone.

What's turn 2 looking like for the giants?

[Valmark]

I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.


According to RAW all the conjured animals act as a group, which I think happens for all the various 'summon X amount of minions'.

Regarding the bit about summons not acting in the round they are summoned (which is from the above poster, not Frog's) nothing explicitely says wether they act or not. Given that they have an initiative I think they act in the round only if they roll below the druid, but it's really DM's call. From what I know several DMs don't even control them themselves in the first place (me included).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

No assumption. That is the scenario that was presented.



Agreed. I think he did list the initiatve order in this one after being asked about it.



I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.



If the Giants don't move away from the Giant Ape's / wolves the attacks will be at disadvantage. You can forgo the disadvantage on the cleric by taking OA's. I'm assuming that's what you will do. That leaves the giants on the apes as having lost around 1/3 of their hp.

The cleric has a good chance of being downed (20-25%). He is almost certain to lose bless. He has around a 40% chance of having around 10ish hp left. Only a 6.4% chance that all attacks miss.

Nice Giant turn. I'm going to go with the 10hp scenario as that was the most likely. one from above. Cleric will action channel divinity heal to 32 hp. He will then cast sanctuary on himself and fall back and drop prone. Apes will position themselves to block giants again and attack them more. wolves will continue after the giant they are on. Druid should dash back 30 ft and fall prone. Sorcerer will dash back 30 ft and drop prone.

What's turn 2 looking like for the giants?
I believe the Cleric gets hit on a 10-20 meaning there is more than a 50% chance he is hit by 2 rocks and about a 15% chance one of those is a crit (then he's definitely toast). If a 14 Con then 52 hp and likely dead by the 2 hits (which average 56 hp), which is the most likely scenario with a 15 str needed for plate armor.

Regardless, I've already said the Giants have a slim to none chance if they lose initiative to every character regardless of tactics (if the poster did mention that further down the thread I missed it.) Allowing wolves to attack and knock down immediately basically ensures it.
My argument to you was that an initial polymorph was neither a safer option nor one that would necessarily use less resources. The Barb reckless attacking and the Rogue with SS do more damage than the apes. Tack on a fireball (either Empowered or Quickened + Cantrip depending on metamagic available) and 1 of the giants is likely dead and unable to attack and another is wounded by the end of round 1. It's possible the Polymorph and the 4 metamagic for Twin won't even be needed.

[JackPhoenix]

I think RAW is that you roll for their initiative 1 wolf at a time. It seems fairly common for DM's to simplify summons though.

RAW is that identical creatures share initiative.