Help With Barbarian Build

[Thialfi]

For me there is one small positive to the pandemic. It has gotten my group to play using Roll20 and finally make the conversion to 5E. We have been a D&D group for 40 years and have stubbornly clung to our super home brewed version of 2E for a long time. I love the new rule set. We started as novices back in April and my first two characters were a tiefling dragon sorcerer and a variant human diviner wizard.

We are going to start Tomb of Annihilation now and I've decided to go melee this time. The rest of our group is a halfling divine sorcerer, a human grave domain cleric, a variant human dual wielding fighter, and a variant human kensei monk. We roll our stats with 4d6 drop the lowest and the two other melee characters are going to be pretty good damage dealers with how well they rolled.

I decided to go with a female wood elf barbarian. I took the gold option instead of starting equipment and I ended up with a long sword and shield wearer with the following stats;

Strength - 17 Intelligence - 7 Wisdom - 14, Dexterity -16, Constitution - 16 Charisma - 10. So she has an 18 armor class and 15 hit points.

I am thinking of going the tank route and picking the path of the ancestral guardian and actually taking my first two stat increases in constitution so that at 8th level she'd be looking at an AC of 20 and 101 hit points without any magic additions. I'm certainly okay with doing less damage than the other two melee characters and I like the idea of putting up that not so soft taunt while she is raging.

I'll probably have lots of fun with the character, but I'm wondering if my idea will be an effective way to build her or should I consider something else? Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[Man_Over_Game]

The Ancestral Guardian is probably the most interesting Barbarian build, as it scales with how difficult you are to hit. If you can make yourself a difficult target, you can lock down a boss without much effort.

This means that, contrary to the Barbarian standard, you do NOT want to be standing in front of the enemy you just taunted. Reach, the Mobile feat, throwing weapons, all of these are commonly used tools by Ancestral Guardian players to leverage their taunt and to cripple their enemies.

Buddy of mine did the math, and a Wizard that's protected by your AG defenses lives about as long as you do while Raging. So the healthier you are, the healthier your team is, so learning to force enemies into attacking your allies instead of you will work out for everyone in the long run.


If that's NOT your schtick, then you're better off just going Bear Totem or Zealot and picking up Sentinel as an alternative route for "tanking". AG is a lot of fun (for me, it's the most fun Barbarian there is so far), but it's not Barbarian for a lot of folks. And if you play it like a normal Barbarian, then you're getting nothing out of it. Trust me on that one.

[Specter]

For Tomb of Annihilation, I'd recommend Dungeon Delver as a feat. Since your group doesn't seem too heavy on trapmasters, you might as well go ahead and toughen up the traps with your giant HP pool.

[Thialfi]

I actually hadn't thought of it like that. It makes sense. We have two other melee combatants. She can plunk them with a bow and dodge out of range while the others engage. Since she's a wood elf, maybe I need to rearrange her starting scores. Maybe even put the 17 in dexterity so it can start at 19. Then I can add mobile and resilient or some other dex boosting feat. That actually might be fun.

It definitely is different. I'M RAGING!!!! ARRRRGH! But I'm totally going to plunk you with an arrow and run away.

Do I dare have a barbarian with a 14 strength and go;

Strength - 14, Intelligence - 7, Wisdom - 14, Dexterity - 19, Constitution - 16, Charisma - 10? Or should I put the 14 in con?

[zinycor]

The Ancestral Guardian is probably the most interesting Barbarian build, as it scales with how difficult you are to hit. If you can make yourself a difficult target, you can lock down a boss without much effort.

This means that, contrary to the Barbarian standard, you do NOT want to be standing in front of the enemy you just taunted. Reach, the Mobile feat, throwing weapons, all of these are commonly used tools by Ancestral Guardian players to leverage their taunt and to cripple their enemies.

Buddy of mine did the math, and a Wizard that's protected by your AG defenses lives about as long as you do while Raging. So the healthier you are, the healthier your team is, so learning to force enemies into attacking your allies instead of you will work out for everyone in the long run.


If that's NOT your schtick, then you're better off just going Bear Totem or Zealot and picking up Sentinel as an alternative route for "tanking". AG is a lot of fun (for me, it's the most fun Barbarian there is so far), but it's not Barbarian for a lot of folks. And if you play it like a normal Barbarian, then you're getting nothing out of it. Trust me on that one.
I disagree, the build works pretty well as it is and following this advice will mutate the character concept away from the initial intent.

Noyhing wrong with a meele barbarian.

[Thialfi]

For Tomb of Annihilation, I'd recommend Dungeon Delver as a feat. Since your group doesn't seem too heavy on trapmasters, you might as well go ahead and toughen up the traps with your giant HP pool.

The kensei monk is my son and he has a high wisdom and the criminal background. He dumped intelligence as well. It's based on some anime character that I don't know. His name is Mugen. He was going to do most of the thieving stuff. He took the mobile feat at first level because he thinks it's cool to have a huge movement. That would be an excellent use of a feat. I'm trying not to spoiler anything, but it's pretty hard to miss Acererak as a villian. That means lots of traps.

[Thialfi]

I disagree, the build works pretty well as it is and following this advice will mutate the character concept away from the initial intent.

Noyhing wrong with a meele barbarian.


My DM is pretty set in his ways on all things D&D. He's a grandpa after all. All those kids with their crazy new D&D! Get off his lawn! He hates the idea of dwarven wizards and halfling monks. A barbarian that doesn't rage in your face would probably get the side eye. Lots to think about. Thanks.

[Frogreaver]

For me there is one small positive to the pandemic. It has gotten my group to play using Roll20 and finally make the conversion to 5E. We have been a D&D group for 40 years and have stubbornly clung to our super home brewed version of 2E for a long time. I love the new rule set. We started as novices back in April and my first two characters were a tiefling dragon sorcerer and a variant human diviner wizard.

We are going to start Tomb of Annihilation now and I've decided to go melee this time. The rest of our group is a halfling divine sorcerer, a human grave domain cleric, a variant human dual wielding fighter, and a variant human kensei monk. We roll our stats with 4d6 drop the lowest and the two other melee characters are going to be pretty good damage dealers with how well they rolled.

I decided to go with a female wood elf barbarian. I took the gold option instead of starting equipment and I ended up with a long sword and shield wearer with the following stats;

Strength - 17 Intelligence - 7 Wisdom - 14, Dexterity -16, Constitution - 16 Charisma - 10. So she has an 18 armor class and 15 hit points.

I am thinking of going the tank route and picking the path of the ancestral guardian and actually taking my first two stat increases in constitution so that at 8th level she'd be looking at an AC of 20 and 101 hit points without any magic additions. I'm certainly okay with doing less damage than the other two melee characters and I like the idea of putting up that not so soft taunt while she is raging.

I'll probably have lots of fun with the character, but I'm wondering if my idea will be an effective way to build her or should I consider something else? Your input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I like your build. It’s also quite handy to be as good with dex weapons as you are with str.

Con based barbarians are really fun. Your barbarian could benefit a lot from the mobile feat. I might do that instead of 20 con.

[Man_Over_Game]

I disagree, the build works pretty well as it is and following this advice will mutate the character concept away from the initial intent.

Noyhing wrong with a meele barbarian.

Nothing wrong with a melee barbarian, I agree.

I'm just saying there's everything wrong with a melee Ancestral Guardian barbarian.

Do you want a wasted subclass? Because that's how you get a wasted subclass.

[Benny89]

I would go with Variant Human + Mobile feat + using Glaive/Halberd weapon and Ancestral Barbrian.

Very good tank with a lot of kitting potential. You can also use throwing weapons to keep distance to boss while your Tount is on him and he has to either kite you around or attack with disadvantage your allies.

A very unique playstyle instead of typical "I rage, I rend" barbarian.

[micahaphone]

The "traditional barb play is bad with ancestral guardian" thoroughly depends on your DM - if monsters just hit back against the raging barb that's in their face, then yes, your level 3 marking ability will go unused. But if the DM will have enemies bypass the immortal hunk of muscle in front of them to target the casters, then your mark will be very useful.

Especially if the monk/fighter stay near you, you can mark the enemy that's fighting them and redirect it onto you. Be the adsorbing tank, yeah.

Depending on the party's strategy, Mobile could help you keep up with the monk, or if you all keep together I think +con is a perfectly fine choice.

[Yakmala]

I've played two Ancestral Guardian Barbarians and they are fun, but do not play like traditional Barbarians. While they provide amazing protection to your party, they work best in a non-tanking roll. Rather than survive hits, you want to avoid them all together. Use either polearms for reach or mobile to get away, or a combination of both, to hit and run, using the terrain and your greater mobility to avoid being targeted after marking the target with your Ancestral Protectors.

For actual tanking with a Barbarian, I prefer one of the following two options.

If you are the only melee in the party: Go Bear and pick up Sentinel and GWM, Get in their faces, tank with your hit points, do massive damage with Reckless Attack + GWM. Give the enemy no options other than to deal with you.

If you are in a party with multiple other melee characters: Go Wolf Totem with weapon and shield (I prefer spear and shield with PAM). Rarely use reckless. Your job is to get within 5' of as many enemies as possible and provide the rest of the melees in the party with advantage every turn.

[zinycor]

Nothing wrong with a melee barbarian, I agree.

I'm just saying there's everything wrong with a melee Ancestral Guardian barbarian.

Do you want a wasted subclass? Because that's how you get a wasted subclass.

I fail to see how it would be a wasted subclass. And more importantly, while it might be more effective as a ranged subclass, it doesn't seem like that's the character the OP was making.

[Keravath]

I would go with Variant Human + Mobile feat + using Glaive/Halberd weapon and Ancestral Barbrian.

Very good tank with a lot of kitting potential. You can also use throwing weapons to keep distance to boss while your Tount is on him and he has to either kite you around or attack with disadvantage your allies.

A very unique playstyle instead of typical "I rage, I rend" barbarian.

I'd actually suggest polearm master over mobile. If you are using a polearm then you are already outside the reach of the target much of the time so you can attack and move away. In addition, since the third level ability only triggers IF you hit the target then the more chances to hit you have then the more likely you are to be able to make use of it.

Moving away from the target leaves it having to face the choice of taking opportunity attacks in order to attack the barbarian or attacking an adjacent target at both disdvantage and the target having resistance to the damage from the attack.

Adding mobile later might still be a good idea but I think I would start with polearm master since that would be 3 attacks by level 5. This also leverages the rage bonus damage since you get it on each attack.

In addition, since you have to hit with the weapon to get the effect, boosting your attack stat remains important so I would probably boost it before con.

First ASI, I might pick +1 str, +1 wis since this opens up resilient wis for a later pick ... barbarians and fighters greatest weakness is often their wisdom save and this is likely to come up if you face any spell casters along the way.

Anyway, best of luck, sounds like a fun character.

P.S. An alternative build could be to start with barbarian to level 5 and then switch to rogue since you can have both a high strength and dex plus reckless attack to trigger sneak attack in melee. Rogue levels might also fill some party gaps with expertise in skills like perception and investigation related to traps.

[Man_Over_Game]

I fail to see how it would be a wasted subclass. And more importantly, while it might be more effective as a ranged subclass, it doesn't seem like that's the character the OP was making.

I wouldn't suggest the AG being a strictly ranged character, but definitely one that uses throwing weapons and mobility. I'd never suggest a Barbarian do anything other than Strength. But I also think that the AG helps his team the most by not being hit (unless they are a lot healthier than everyone else), and that utilizing evasive techniques help do that.


In addition, since the third level ability only triggers IF you hit the target then the more chances to hit you have then the more likely you are to be able to make use of it.

Correction on that:
"When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not."


The problems I see with polearms is that you sacrifice the Reach for Damage (quarterstaff), or you're sacrificing AC for Reach (Halberd/Glaive). By grabbing Mobile, you get both Reach and higher AC by using a whip. Your damage is lower, but the flat bonus damage from Rage helps mitigate that.

But it really just boils down to the priorities of OP.

For me, I like to lean completely into the bonuses of the AG to completely neutralize whatever my priority target is, then synergizing with that by making myself the most difficult target to take down in the world.

Others want to utilize the Barbarian's high potential for damage and use the AG features as a side effect of the Barbarian chassis.

And then there are options between those.


Personally, I feel that if you aren't really interested in leveraging the AG features as a major element of your playstyle, you're just better off picking one of the other front-line meatshield options (Zealot, Bear) and grabbing Sentinel. It'd accomplish a lot more for someone who wanted to play the AG as a normal Barbarian while still giving you want you're looking for out of AG.

[Thialfi]

I think a lot of what I want to do with her is colored by my experience playing a caster in Lost Mines of Phandelver. Casters got targeted....a lot. I was super glad I took shocking grasp and misty step.

I watched the bear totem half-orc barbarian not get a whole lot of juice out of his choice. I want to be effective and keep the casters clean. If that just meant pulling creatures on to my bigger hit point pool, half damage, and very good armor class, that's fine with me.

Kiting creatures with the ancestors sounds awesome. I'm not sure how many encounters are set up to do that effectively. I just don't have the 5e experience just yet.

I do want to try zealot as well. They look like an awesome offensive option.

Oh, we also use the gritty realism option, so damage mitigation is even more important.

[micahaphone]

And keep in mind that the level 6 damage reduction doesn't have to be on an attack from your marked target, it can be any. That's saved my warlock's bacon a fair few times.

That's also why I don't recommend reaction based feats like Sentinel for AG, you'll frequently want to use your reaction for saving your teammates from damage. Sometimes you'll roll high and the caster doesn't even take any damage, avoiding the concentration roll!

[Frogreaver]

The "traditional barb play is bad with ancestral guardian" thoroughly depends on your DM - if monsters just hit back against the raging barb that's in their face, then yes, your level 3 marking ability will go unused.

To me that's an odd way of putting it. IMO A marking ability isn't being "unused" if it gets a creature to attack you instead of your allies. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing - making you the one the creature is going to focus on.

[Kemev]

Correction on that:
"When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not."



I believe Keravath was referring to the Ancestral Protectors class feature, which does require a hit to proc.

Incidentally, there's another feat that hasn't been mentioned yet: Dual Wielder. Usually it's not considered an A-list option, but it does a few handy things here...
- Like Polearm Master, it gives you an attack for your bonus action. Great for AG-barb... it's a build that doesn't have a native bonus action, plus you REALLY want to stick an attack to trigger your Ancestral Protectors.
- Also has comparable melee damage output to PAM (not including the potential opportunity attack, but then again, you've got Spirit Shields to dish out)
- Unlike Polearm Master, it facilitates ranged combat by giving you the option to draw and throw two weapons a turn.
- +1 AC is a nice perk to compensate for losing a shield
- Not picking the same feat (Mobility) as your son is also a nice perk
- Thematically appropriate. A savage wood elf bursting from cover in a flurry of axe strikes is likely to appease a grognard DM's notion of barbaric murderlust (while also being pretty fun to play, and a good fit for your mechanical concept).

If you go this route, I would keep the first stat line you posted, take Dual Wielder at 4, +1 Str/+1 Wis at 8, and then either Resilient (Wis) or Observant at 12. You could also consider Sharpshooter (the -5 mode is probably unhelpful in most cases, but the range and cover are worthwhile on their own).

[LudicSavant]

In addition, since the third level ability only triggers IF you hit the target then the more chances to hit you have then the more likely you are to be able to make use of it.
Correction on that:
"When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don't provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not."


Emphasis mine.

The third level ability is Ancestral Protectors, not Mobile. It does indeed require a hit.

[Man_Over_Game]

Emphasis mine.

The third level ability is Ancestral Protectors, not Mobile. It does indeed require a hit.

Sorry, was really tired last night. For some reason, I read it as "Third bullet ability", in reference to Mobile.


To me that's an odd way of putting it. IMO A marking ability isn't being "unused" if it gets a creature to attack you instead of your allies. It's doing exactly what it's supposed to be doing - making you the one the creature is going to focus on.

Not quite, though. The incentive to attacking you is that they're not giving your Taunt effect any benefit. But there's always the possibility that you're the most efficient target because of how powerful the Taunt effect is in the first place.

In this example, they could attack your friend for Resistance and Disadvantage, or they can attack the source for Resistance. Later on, they hit your allies for Resistance, Disadvantage, AND that ally gets THP.


From my experience, though, you don't need any convincing to be attacked as a Barbarian. All you have to do is stand in the front and they will be happy to oblige. And if you're already going to be focused, the Ancestral Guardian is the worst Barbarian subclass, as every other subclass has some means of protecting you or retaliating when attacked. The Ancestral Guardian is the ONLY Barbarian subclass that does not improve yourself as a frontline warrior.

[stoutstien]

In my experience barbarians are low priority targets unless the DM is leaning into the PC concept of being the big scary guy will get most of the focus. Most barbarian subclasses are basically the same deal. Moderate to good damage and moderate to good self damage mitigation.
The ranged/ thrown weapon AG at least has an impact on the party's options. They do ok up front but only if you can find some additional mitigation and have high priority targets in the party to stack on the no win scenario for the enemies. The AG and a pally with sentinel can be a solid front line.

[Chugger]

Just be clear which barb abilities don't work with dex. I believe a thrown weapon does but am not totally sure - meaning I think you can reckless on a thrown weapon using str, if you feel you want to increase your chance of getting a hit on a high ac target. Also switching back and forth is hard - even if you drop your sword (free) and pull a javelin - then throw it - you can't pull and throw a second javelin. You need to start w/ a hand axe, dagger or jav in your hand to throw 2 in a turn -- you can also use these as melee weapons.

I would not take dungeon delver - if monk has pick lock/disarm trap and high wisdom, that should work. Rit cast detect magic from casters will help with this. Some traps are magic.

Investigate the polearm and mobile thing. But if you want to get your con and ac high, you don't nec. need mobile feat. Early on most enemies will only have 5' reach, a polearm gives you 10' reach.

[Man_Over_Game]

Investigate the polearm and mobile thing. But if you want to get your con and ac high, you don't nec. need mobile feat. Early on most enemies will only have 5' reach, a polearm gives you 10' reach.

Doesn't quite help if the enemy moves to be adjacent to you, though. It still becomes a choice between endurance and damage, which is more valuable, and which gets the boot.

[Chugger]

true but you can put off getting the feat - feats aren't always easy to do or settle on