An Odd Situation: Lyric Thaumaturge

[Doctor Despair]

Suppose an ECL 7 character has two levels in Bardic Sage and no other spellcasting class, and takes Versatile Spellcaster. If they have a high enough charisma, they have two level 1 spellslots, and Versatile Spellcaster will let them trade it up to their level 2 divination known from their Sage class feature. In this way, if they have Melodic Casting, they can take a level in Lyric Thaumaturge.

This is where things get weird. Lyric Thaumaturges have this ability:


Bonus Spell: Your knowledge of magic grants you the ability to cast more spells than the average bard. At 1st level, you gain one additional 1st-level and 2nd-level bard spell slot.

So you gain a second level spell-slot from LT, you have a second level spell known from BS... Do you gain the level 2 bonus spells commensurate with your charisma bonus? I asked to clarify the conditions under which a character gains bonus spells in the Simple Raw Thread and received this reference:


A730

In Abilities And Spellcasters:


"In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level."


We already had enough bardic spellcasting progression to cast a level 2 spell, albeit by using Versatile Spellcaster, but no level 2 spellslots. I'd wager that's not enough to get bonus spells, as otherwise taking Versatile Spellcaster with a high enough modifier would daisy-chain all the way up your bonus spell-slots. However... after taking this new level, we now have a second-level spell slot by merit of our class levels (ableit in an untraditional way).

Having a second-level spell-slot by merit of our class level in Lyric Thamaturge, do we gain our bonus level 2s?

[DarkSoul]

Suppose an ECL 7 character has two levels in Bardic Sage and no other spellcasting class, and takes Versatile Spellcaster. If they have a high enough charisma, they have two level 1 spellslots, and Versatile Spellcaster will let them trade it up to their level 2 divination known from their Sage class feature.Right here is where you stop. Versatile Spellcaster doesn't make you able to cast 2nd-level spells. It allows you to cast a 2nd-level spell you know using 2 1st-level slots. You don't know any 2nd-level spells, nor do you have a high enough class level to actually cast 2nd-level spells. It's not an odd situation at all. You're trying to get more out of the feat than it gives. You're not the first to try this, and likely won't be the last. Kayblis' answer was correct; you choosing to ignore it doesn't somehow make this work.

[Doctor Despair]

Right here is where you stop. Versatile Spellcaster doesn't make you able to cast 2nd-level spells. It allows you to cast a 2nd-level spell you know using 2 1st-level slots. You don't know any 2nd-level spells, nor do you have a high enough class level to actually cast 2nd-level spells. It's not an odd situation at all. You're trying to get more out of the feat than it gives. You're not the first to try this, and likely won't be the last. Kayblis' answer was correct; you choosing to ignore it doesn't somehow make this work.

You do know a second-level spell, actually -- exactly one. Bardic Sage gives you a divination spell known at every level of spell. Versatile Spellcaster enables us to cast a second-level spell that we know, so we can cast a second-level divination that we select upon taking Bardic Sage.

(Edit: You can achieve much the same effect by taking a Bloodline feat, which also grants the character a spell known at each spell level. Now that I look at it, it seems like you might actually have to take a Bloodline feat to unambiguously gain a spell known, thereby giving you a divination spell known, and then, if you wish, trade out the Bloodline feat later, using the divination spell to self-qualify, but regardless -- there are ways to have spells known above that which you can cast. Just look at the Wizards who can, given the WBL, "know" 9ths from level 1.)

I never said Kayblis was wrong, by the way; I think you are misreading my post. The rule says that in order to cast spells, casters must have a high enough ability score and a high enough class level to cast the spell. That is the general rule. With regard to Versatile Spellcaster, it specifically allows you to use two spell-slots to cast a higher-level spell. Specific trumps general, my friend. I am not ignoring the rule; you seem to have overlooked (or are ignoring) the context in which the rule was referenced.

The rule was quoted as to when you gain bonus spellslots. The rule would suggest that you gain them upon being able to cast that level of spell by merit of your class levels. Lyric Thaumaturge, a class level, gives us a second-level spell slot from which we can cast our second-level spell known. I am wondering whether that would fulfill the class level requirement to gain access to those bonus spell slots (even though you do not gain any additional spells known) or not.

(Edit2: The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to say that you don't get your bonus spells. The wording of the Lyric Thamaturge (an additional slot) seems problematic, as we explicitly have " - " slots, which can't be added to. That nixes the whole issue, as we now no longer satisfy the requirement to be able to cast that level of spell by merit of class levels. If only it had just said that you gain the spell slot... Oh, well. C'est la RAW.)