Knowledge devotion feat

[_RAGNAR_]

I'm building a character that I know isnt optimized for combat but good enough (i like characters great for role play AND combat - this one is an elven rogue, wizard, swordsage on dark template)

She will never take significant ranks in knowledge (one in everything, five in dungeoneering is my current thoughts)

Is the feat worth is for a 2/3 chance of +1 to hit/+1 damage, 1/3 chance of +2 ?

I'm planning TWF so getting the +1 or +2 from two weapons enhancements isn't cheap. Sneak attack damage doesnt happen without hitting...

Thoughts from the experts ?

[Venger]

if you're not going to invest in it, kd will not help you that much. being a precision damage user is feat intensive at the best of times so you will likely be better off spending it on something from the twf chain.

[_RAGNAR_]

if you're not going to invest in it, kd will not help you that much. being a precision damage user is feat intensive at the best of times so you will likely be better off spending it on something from the twf chain.

I won't qualify for the next TWF fighting feat for a while.

I have:
Quick reconnoiter (I'm going to be the the classic scout/thief up front)
Shadow Blade
Craven
TWF


I have one more feat to select. I could even delay TWF a couple levels and take two other feats.

edit: I'm planning on fey craft daggers for the weapons finest ability

[Troacctid]

I think it's worth it even if you only have one or two Knowledge skills with any significant investment, especially if they're good ones like arcana or local or nature, but if you have none at all, it's probably not good enough.

[_RAGNAR_]

I think it's worth it even if you only have one or two Knowledge skills with any significant investment, especially if they're good ones like arcana or local or nature, but if you have none at all, it's probably not good enough.

I put 1 in everything and have +2 int mod.

[_RAGNAR_]

Other feats that could be worthwhile

Improved initiative (I'm at +10 currently and have the nerveskitter spell for another +5, so not feeling the need for this)
Dark Stalker (already have ring of dark hidden)

Blind fight
Sacred Strike (we are good and mostly fighting evil)
Staggering strike (this seems one of the best)

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Use a feat for Ancestral Relic and start getting item-based bonuses for Knowledge skills?

Alternatively (or in addition), if 3.5 psionics is available at your table and Untapped Potential is as well (because it was written by Bruce Cordell, the author of the Expanded Psionics Handbook), UtP's synaptic mask is a face slot item that allows you to insert a skill shard (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#shards) into it. It grants you the bonus constantly, instead of just once, but if you remove the shard after using it, the shard disintegrates. Invest in a skill shard that stacks several shards together using the item stacking rules in the MIC. 1,000 gp for a +10 skill shard, and +1,500 gp for every additional skill you boost by +10. The mask itself costs 9,000 gp.

[_RAGNAR_]

Staggering strike seems to be an incredible and mandatory sneak attack feat

[bean illus]

I put 1 in everything and have +2 int mod.

As said, TWF is feat intensive. If you decide Know Devo, consider Ragnar's advice.

A +1 or +2 Int bonus will give you skills per level, and a bonus on the check (sorta double dipping). Also, at higher levels a +2 Int item is cheap. It won't grant skills, but will grant the bonus to the roll.

A masterwork skill item is valid as RAW. Think of it as Cliff notes tattooed on your forearm, or scribed on your bracers/etc (check with your DM).

Don't forget Frog God's Fane gives a Skill Focus for another +2.

At upper levels, with DM's cooperation,:
+2 Int, +3 magic Item, +5 MW item, 6 ranks = +16
Now, automatic +2, 25% +3, 25% +4, 5% +5. = +2.8 avg.

At that point, every skill point you add increases your chance of a +5 by 5%. TWF generates crits. Get a way to confirm (Bless Weapon is a 2nd level spell, paladin or glory domain. Confirms ALL crits. Get a continuous item.) Now you're getting Know Devo AND precision damage, AND crit damage.

Staggering strike is great, but like you said, what good is precision damage or staggering strike if you're not hitting? And some things are immune to precision damage. Know Devo works against everything, and stacks untyped.

Check with your DM first, ... or ... take staggering strike.

[Gorthawar]

Check with your DM if the collector of stories skill trick works with knowledge devotion. That would give you +5 on 1 knowledge skill once per fight for very little investment.

[Zombulian]

Use a feat for Ancestral Relic and start getting item-based bonuses for Knowledge skills?

Are there rules for how pricing would work for that?

[Troacctid]

Are there rules for how pricing would work for that?
Based on existing items, you can get a +5 competence bonus to any one Knowledge skill for 2500 gp (crystal mask of knowledge), or to all Knowledge skills for 8000 gp (scrolls of uncertain provenance).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's this: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?514547-The-Library-of-Knowledge-Getting-the-most-out-of-your-studies

And this: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?292553-Knowledge-Devotion-optimization

[Venger]

Check with your DM if the collector of stories skill trick works with knowledge devotion. That would give you +5 on 1 knowledge skill once per fight for very little investment.

It does, but it would require further investment in knowledge.

[Gorthawar]

It does, but it would require further investment in knowledge.
Just the 2 skill points for the skill trick. You need 5 ranks in one knowledge skill already to qualify for knowledge devotion.

[Kurald Galain]

Is the feat worth is for a 2/3 chance of +1 to hit/+1 damage, 1/3 chance of +2 ?
No. No, it's not. Mathematically speaking, the feat basically expects you to be level 15+ with massive investment in knowledge skills; if you're not, then other feats are better.

For instance, the stereotypical class that wants this feat is the Duskblade... but it turns out that if you're low-to-mid level, and not expecting to go high level, then simply putting your points in strength is (mathematically) better than putting them in int (for more knowledge ranks). The feat is good, but somewhat overrated, and just not an automatic pick.

[_RAGNAR_]

Thanks so far, lots to think about.

I put 1 point in all knowledge areas just for role play reasons. I want the character to "know" things.

But it would allow me to leverage that for KD feat

[_RAGNAR_]

I'm still torn on what feats makes sense at lower levels

Staggering strike is awesome but I dont qualify for a while. Same with the TWF tree.


Basically I see Knowledge devotion as a Feat to add +1 to my daggers. (and 1/3 of the time +2)

Or Dark Stalker lets me get rid of the ring and spend the gold elsewhere. but 2000gp for a feat when I dont have other rings seems a good deal

Blind Fight ? Whats the best way to get around concealment and cover issues? How do I get sneak attacks against concealed opponents?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Or Dark Stalker lets me get rid of the ring and spend the gold elsewhere. but 2000gp for a feat when I dont have other rings seems a good dealDarkstalker is always worth it, given how much certain senses can completely no-sell your sneaking ability. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take a ring of the darkhidden, though. It's decent for sneaking around when your foes have darkvision (when you do, too), and if you buy some scrolls of the no light spell, you've got in-fight improved invisibility against everything, for relatively cheap. You can see them, but they can't see you. All they see is a big black blot -- or they can use darkvision to see inside the no light effect, but you'll be invisible to them.


Blind Fight ? Whats the best way to get around concealment and cover issues? How do I get sneak attacks against concealed opponents?A ranged weapon with the seeking special quality. As long as you target the right space (which abilities like scent can help with), you should negate a number of miss chances. And the above no light/ring of the darkhidden + darkvision combo should allow you plenty of opportunities to hit enemies when they're flat-footed against you.

[_RAGNAR_]

Darkstalker is always worth it, given how much certain senses can completely no-sell your sneaking ability. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take a ring of the darkhidden, though. It's decent for sneaking around when your foes have darkvision (when you do, too), and if you buy some scrolls of the no light spell, you've got in-fight improved invisibility against everything, for relatively cheap. You can see them, but they can't see you. All they see is a big black blot -- or they can use darkvision to see inside the no light effect, but you'll be invisible to them.

A ranged weapon with the seeking special quality. As long as you target the right space (which abilities like scent can help with), you should negate a number of miss chances. And the above no light/ring of the darkhidden + darkvision combo should allow you plenty of opportunities to hit enemies when they're flat-footed against you.

Thanks for the food for thought

does the feat dark stalker and the ring of dark hidden really do anything different?

I'll look up no-light. I havent heard of that.

I'm trying to avoid ranged attacks. I really want to build a character that gets right in a single opponents face and sneak attacks the crapo out of them (or really gets right in their back lol) hiding, teleport, etc and then as many attacks as possible and keep them flat footed or flanked

[_RAGNAR_]

I'm attempting to figure out how to keep opponents stunned, staggered, etc or be invisible (swordsage maneuvers)

Also with the island of blades stance and my owl familiar I should be able to flank when I cant get them flat footed.

Shadow jaunt lets me teleport 50' then I have HiPS etc.

My hope is a character that can teleport past the rabble and put a hurting on the main problem which in many cases will be a spell caster.

[_RAGNAR_]

THANKS !!


no-light will be huge for me. Super cheap and easy

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you want to use seeking in melee, use weapons that do both, such as daggers. Daggers are both ranged and melee weapons, and nothing in seeking's description prevents you from using it in melee. Technically.

[_RAGNAR_]

ok so I was totally screwing up. The feat isnt for darkhidden, lol

so the ring of dark hidden provides invisibility to darkvision while the feat allows a hide/move check against blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense.


Not the same thing at all.

I should take the feat AND have the ring

[_RAGNAR_]

If you want to use seeking in melee, use weapons that do both, such as daggers. Daggers are both ranged and melee weapons, and nothing in seeking's description prevents you from using it in melee. Technically.


ah thats very good to know. I am using daggers as they fit the swordsage class and the best

[_RAGNAR_]

If you want to use seeking in melee, use weapons that do both, such as daggers. Daggers are both ranged and melee weapons, and nothing in seeking's description prevents you from using it in melee. Technically.

completely different subject


if I have wand chambers in my daggers I'm thinking grease and critical strike as good spells. Suggestions? Something simple like color spray ?

There arent a lot of swift action spells that would be of benefit

[_RAGNAR_]

Check with your DM if the collector of stories skill trick works with knowledge devotion. That would give you +5 on 1 knowledge skill once per fight for very little investment.



thats a GREAT skill trick for this. Thank you

[Kurald Galain]

There arent a lot of swift action spells that would be of benefit

Swift Invisibility and Swift Fly are good choices.

[_RAGNAR_]

Swift Invisibility and Swift Fly are good choices.

I can get swift fly but swift invisibility isnt on my spell list and I dont have UMD yet, plus a 8 charisma... so I was just planning on using wizard spells on wands.

[_RAGNAR_]

so at 6th level with two flaws I'm looking at these feats:

Shadow Blade
Quick Reconnoiter
Craven
Two Weapon Fighting
Dark Stalker or Knowledge Devotion


I could probably safely delay Dark Stalker as at this level I probably wont run into a lot of reasons to need it. Whereas KD gives me instantly better hits

Especially if the skill trick adds +5, thats over a 50% chance of a +2 to hit and damage, 10% +3...

hmmm

[Ramza00]

Question for the board that is kind of a threadjack but also kind of very related to the OP's original build.

LogicNinja used to have on a different website "I am become Death": Kali's Ordained Champion -- a TWF blender" by Logic Ninja. Except that other website lost the info and I am not aware of any cache of it. Does anyone have a personal copy of that build? I am curious what feats did it use.

[_RAGNAR_]

At that point, every skill point you add increases your chance of a +5 by 5%. TWF generates crits. Get a way to confirm (Bless Weapon is a 2nd level spell, paladin or glory domain. Confirms ALL crits. Get a continuous item.) Now you're getting Know Devo AND precision damage, AND crit damage.

Staggering strike is great, but like you said, what good is precision damage or staggering strike if you're not hitting? And some things are immune to precision damage. Know Devo works against everything, and stacks untyped.

Check with your DM first, ... or ... take staggering strike.



I am looking at a wand of Critical Strike in a wand chamber. 1d6 extra damage, double threat range, +4 to confirm for one round as swift action.

I need the other dagger to have a swift action wand that helps deny dex, make flat footed, or hampers movement etc. Until I find something better I'll go with color spray probably. It wont help at higher levels but at 6th if I run into multiple 5hd or less creatures I have a chance



question for fighting magic users: best low level spells that require fortitude or reflex saves that will set them up for sneaks ? I'm talking comparable level magic users not epic stuff.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You ought to put a wand chamber in each of your daggers, one in each of your gauntlets (with the wand poking out over your forearm, like with Yang's shotgun-gauntlets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCw_aAS7vWI)), and perhaps one in each of your boot blades, knee blades, and sleeve blades. If you have a tail, try one in a tail blade, as well. And if you have a bite attack, there's a weapon mod that allows you to hold a blade in your mouth so you can make regular weapon attacks instead of a bite. It's the mouthpick weapon mod.

[_RAGNAR_]

You ought to put a wand chamber in each of your daggers, one in each of your gauntlets (with the wand poking out over your forearm, like with Yang's shotgun-gauntlets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCw_aAS7vWI)), and perhaps one in each of your boot blades, knee blades, and sleeve blades. If you have a tail, try one in a tail blade, as well. And if you have a bite attack, there's a weapon mod that allows you to hold a blade in your mouth so you can make regular weapon attacks instead of a bite. It's the mouthpick weapon mod.


I'll be pretty happy with the two in my dagger :-)

Though I will need an affordable way to access extra wands and scrolls quickly. I'm mostly out of money but at least I can put it on the list of needed items

[MaxiDuRaritry]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?148101-3-x-Shax-s-Indispensible-Haversack-(Equipment-Handbook)

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?206807-Magic-Items-on-a-Budget-1000-GP-or-Less

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts