Conjure Elemental and Planar Binding RAW

[Twelvetrees]

To avoid cluttering up the Simple RAW for 5e thread, I'm starting this discussion here.

To summarize:


Q128: If my Druid casts Conjure Elemental, has his wizard friend confine it in a magic circle, and then casts Planar Binding, the duration of Conjure Elemental is extended to one day. Does it become "Concentration, up to one day" or just "one day"? Does he still need to concentrate on it? What happens when he stops doing so?


A128: Your druid would lose concentration on Conjure Elemental when they began the 1 hour casting time of Planar Binding because long casting times require concentration (PHB pg 202).

To answer your original series of questions, let us take a situation where your druid maintained concentration on Conjure Elemental (say for example, your wizard friend is the one to cast Planar Binding instead). If the elemental that Planar Binding is cast upon fails its Charisma saving throw, then the duration of Conjure Elemental is extended to 24 hours and still requires Concentraion. As it turns out, it doesn’t actually matter that is still requires Concentration. It can be lost and it won’t affect anything.

The line in Conjure Elemental about “An uncontrolled elemental can't be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it,” doesn’t apply because the elemental isn’t uncontrolled. The caster of Planar Binding is now controlling it and will continue to do so until the full 24 hour duration of the spell has elapsed.


There are multiple assertions going around about how the Concentration part is part of the duration, and if it's not mentioned, then it isn't there. Planar binding is replacing the old duration with the one stated in its effects, and says NOTHING about the concentration, thus it removes the requirement. But any more on this should have its own thread, or try and search around for an old one where more people make this argument and do thread necromancy. I will not continue it more in the RAW thread, but the OP should know that this is a realm of dispute, and I do not agree that the interpretation above is RAW.

I did a fair bit of digging before posting the answer, so I’m interested to hear where I might have gone wrong.

I pretty sure I got Planar Binding correct – the elemental should be sticking around for 24 hours. The primary point of contention appears to be around whether the Conjure Elemental (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/conjure-elemental) still requires concentration. My position right now is that it does, but if the caster drops it, nothing changes.

From Planar Binding (https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/planar-binding):

If the creature was summoned or created by another spell, that spell's duration is extended to match the duration of this spell
I’m reading the duration being extended as simply that – the duration goes from being “Concentration, up to 1 hour” to “Concentration, up to 24 hours.” What am I missing from Planar Binding that would imply that Concentration is no longer a part of the duration of Conjure Elemental?


https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/140732/what-happens-if-i-cast-planar-binding-on-a-creature-who-was-brought-by-a-spell-t (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/140732/what-happens-if-i-cast-planar-binding-on-a-creature-who-was-brought-by-a-spell-t)
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/427hg4/planar_binding/
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528267-Conjure-Elemental-and-Planar-Binding-Combo
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/10/14/does-planar-binding-work-with-conjure-elemental/

[PhoenixPhyre]

I read it as still requiring concentration. Otherwise, you have to deal with the clause that talks about concentration ending, which makes things messy. Because if you were concentrating, and then you later weren't, you inevitably must have stopped concentrating on the spell sometime in the middle. Which triggers the clause.

[RSP]

I think you have it correct. Once Conc is broken on CE, it becomes, essentially a normal elemental that is hostile towards you; however, PB overrides that and makes it “bound to serve you for the Duration.” “The Duration is the 24 hours of PB, which is clear by “If the creature was summoned or created by another spell, that spell's Duration is extended to match the Duration of this spell.”

Pretty clear to me.

[Valmark]

Logically, it would be no. The duration becomes Planar Binding's- though the wording easily supports the (still needs Concentration).

Ultimately it doesn't matter- even if you end Concentration, the elemental is Binded and isn't going anywhere nor disobeying your orders.

[JackPhoenix]

The problem with RAW is that the elemental must be present for the entire time it takes to cast Planar Binding, and the 1-hour duration of Conjure Elemental both starts and thus inevitably ends just before the casting of Planar Binding gets started and eventually finished.

[MaxWilson]

The problem with RAW is that the elemental must be present for the entire time it takes to cast Planar Binding, and the 1-hour duration of Conjure Elemental both starts and thus inevitably ends just before the casting of Planar Binding gets started and eventually finished.

By RAW (and RAI) it lasts just barely long enough (1 hour) to finish casting Planar Binding.

[Valmark]

The problem with RAW is that the elemental must be present for the entire time it takes to cast Planar Binding, and the 1-hour duration of Conjure Elemental both starts and thus inevitably ends just before the casting of Planar Binding gets started and eventually finished.


By RAW (and RAI) it lasts just barely long enough (1 hour) to finish casting Planar Binding.
Wouldn't it expire first since they both last an hour and Conjure Elemental starts first?

With the Magic Circle it's forced to stay anyway.

[Zhorn]

this is where you invest into Glyph of Warding to cast the Planar Binding into that to trigger on the elemental later.
It's an added cost, but gets past the timing issue

[Valmark]

this is where you invest into Glyph of Warding to cast the Planar Binding into that to trigger on the elemental later.
It's an added cost, but gets past the timing issue

Wouldn't that have the same problem? Since the Glyph triggers after the elemental appears so PB would end after the elemental disappears?

[Chugger]

The spell description talks about this is typically cast upon an elemental summoned into an inverted magic circle, so clearly by RAI it should work - I guess you time it so that the moment the elemental is summoned the planar binding guy starts, and just have it work - RAI - don't bean-count this, or I certainly wouldn't. I'm not sure why someone would deliberately ruin a spell combo that the spell definition clearly implies should work.

Planar Binding has no duration. It says the elemental lasts 24 hours - clearly PB takes over. I agree.

[Zhorn]

Wouldn't that have the same problem? Since the Glyph triggers after the elemental appears so PB would end after the elemental disappears?

Without a spell glyph:
Cast Conjure Elemental, lasts 1 hours
Start casting Planar Binding, takes 1 hour to finish
You need the elemental to exists as a target for the binding, so with the order of casting and duration, the summoned elemental will vanish just before the binding spell finishes casting.

With spell glyph:
Cast a 5th level Glyph of Warding with the spell glyph of Planar Binding to trigger on the elemental that enters the glyph's area.
Doesn't need the target to exist at the moment of casting, essentially is setting up a landmine.
Cast Conjure Elemental to appear on the glyph
Spell triggers instantly, elemental has to roll the save.
On a fail, the elemental's summon duration is extended up to 24 hours to match the duration of Planar Binding as per the spell text

[sithlordnergal]

Well, when it comes to Planar Binding you have to keep a few things in mind:

1) You need two people to do it, at a minimum. One person to concentrate on Conjure Elemental and one person to cast Planar Binding

2) You need to time it properly since Planar Binding takes an hour to cast, and Conjure Elemental lasts an hour

3) Planar Binding replaces the duration of the spell, it does not remove the Concentration requirement. However, due to the second paragraph in Planar Binding, you can stop concentrating on Conjure Elemental without fear of the Elemental going berserk. As long as the person who cast Planar Binding gives the summoned creature a command that prevents it from attacking the party, the person who summoned the Elemental can drop concentration without ear of being attacked. This makes a lot of sense, since the duration of Planar Binding increases the number of days a bound creature will serve you, up to a year and one day. If the spell intended for the person who cast Conjure Elemental to continue concentrating on it after Planar Binding was cast, then they wouldn't have had that sort of scaling since sleep, or Trancing for Elves, automatically breaks Concentration.

[Valmark]

Without a spell glyph:
Cast Conjure Elemental, lasts 1 hours
Start casting Planar Binding, takes 1 hour to finish
You need the elemental to exists as a target for the binding, so with the order of casting and duration, the summoned elemental will vanish just before the binding spell finishes casting.

With spell glyph:
Cast a 5th level Glyph of Warding with the spell glyph of Planar Binding to trigger on the elemental that enters the glyph's area.
Doesn't need the target to exist at the moment of casting, essentially is setting up a landmine.
Cast Conjure Elemental to appear on the glyph
Spell triggers instantly, elemental has to roll the save.
On a fail, the elemental's summon duration is extended up to 24 hours to match the duration of Planar Binding as per the spell text

Oh, I see. I still prefer simply using Magic Circle (cheaper) to keep the elemental there through the casting, but this works yeah.

[MaxWilson]

Wouldn't it expire first since they both last an hour and Conjure Elemental starts first?

With the Magic Circle it's forced to stay anyway.

A spell like Blade Ward lasts one round and ends at the end of your next turn. It covers 1 action from you. Logically, a spell which needs 600 actions from you to cast (Planar Binding) needs the target to be around for 600 rounds (Conjure Elemental), and it is. I can see someone arguing it the other way: there are a few "one-round" spells like Shield which last less than a full round and disappear at the beginning of your turn instead of the end, so it's actually a bit ambiguous whether an hour-long spell ends at the end of your 600th next turn or the beginning. But why would Conjure Elemental be one of those slightly-shorter spells when it's clearly intended to be used with Planar Binding? RAW it could be either, RAI it's the end-of-turn version, so why not read RAW the way it's intended to be read?

BTW, Magic Circle doesn't stop spells from expiring so doesn't help in this case. It stops the creature from leaving voluntarily (Plane Shift/Teleport/flying), but voluntary movement isn't how a Conjured Elemental leaves at the end of an hour.

[Valmark]

A spell like Blade Ward lasts one round and ends at the end of your next turn. It covers 1 action from you. Logically, a spell which needs 600 actions from you to cast (Planar Binding) needs the target to be around for 600 rounds (Conjure Elemental), and it is. I can see someone arguing it the other way: there are a few "one-round" spells like Shield which last less than a full round and disappear at the beginning of your turn instead of the end, so it's actually a bit ambiguous whether an hour-long spell ends at the end of your 600th next turn or the beginning. But why would Conjure Elemental be one of those slightly-shorter spells when it's clearly intended to be used with Planar Binding? RAW it could be either, RAI it's the end-of-turn version, so why not read RAW the way it's intended to be read?

BTW, Magic Circle doesn't stop spells from expiring so doesn't help in this case. It stops the creature from leaving voluntarily (Plane Shift/Teleport/flying), but voluntary movement isn't how a Conjured Elemental leaves at the end of an hour.

According to the example in the OP Planar Binding would be casted the next round though. There again, nothing stops the wizard friend from Binding the elemental himself while the druid keeps Concentration. (To be fair, if we want to be very picky one could argue that PB needs to be casted before the end of the druid's turn which isn't possible unless you're using a Glyph of Warding).

As for MC not stopping the elemental, Planar Binding says that usually one conjures the creature into a Magic Circle to keep it there so it has to help. Unless it's to keep the conjured creature there after breaking Concentration on whatever you summoned in the first place- but then, the problem remains the same as above.

EDIT: Nothing stops the wizard friend unless the druid wants the elemental for themselves.

[MaxWilson]

As for MC not stopping the elemental, Planar Binding says that usually one conjures the creature into a Magic Circle to keep it there so it has to help. Unless it's to keep the conjured creature there after breaking Concentration on whatever you summoned in the first place- but then, the problem remains the same as above.


Magic Circle stops it from attacking you. That's not about the duration, it's about not dying. (Also, not losing concentration on a hit.)

[Evaar]

They really should've written "replaced with" instead of "extended to match."

Given that it does say "extended to match" I suppose it's reasonable to conclude the creature becomes hostile once concentration is broken. Planar Binding has some notes to that effect, suggesting the elemental will try to twist your words thereafter. I think that's fine.

But I also think the intent of the spell is clearly that Concentration is no longer required. You can't maintain Concentration while you're asleep, and upcasting it by one level increases the duration to 10 days.

In effect, I would read the "extended to match" part of the spell to mean "replaced with." And I would argue that's the more precise RAW, too. "Concentration, up to 24 hours" does not "match" "24 hours." It's similar, but not a "match."

[Zhorn]

And I would argue that's the more precise RAW, too. "Concentration, up to 24 hours" does not "match" "24 hours." It's similar, but not a "match."
Another point in favour of using a spell glyph from Glyph of Warding. Can do the whole lot with only a single caster, and you don't need concentration for the Planar Binding if performed through the spell glyph:
"If the spell requires Concentration, it lasts until the end of its full Duration."

[Segev]

By the strictest RAW, they screwed up the casting time of planar binding. It should have been 10 minutes, thirty minutes, or anything anything shy of one hour.

Or conjure elemental needs to last for an hour and a minute or something.

It is clear that the intent is for a single caster to be able to cast an inverted magic circle, conjure an elemental into the circle, break concentration and let the circle contain it while he immediately begins the planar binding spell, all finishing up just in time for the elemental to make or fail the save and be bound or vanish.

[MaxWilson]

Another point in favour of using a spell glyph from Glyph of Warding. Can do the whole lot with only a single caster, and you don't need concentration for the Planar Binding if performed through the spell glyph:
"If the spell requires Concentration, it lasts until the end of its full Duration."

Unfortunately Glyph of Warding also states that the summoned creatures immediately attacks, which is what you were trying to prevent by keeping concentration in the first place.

Glyph of Warding: "If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it."

In the words of Henry Jones, Senior: https://youtu.be/fQddvU1W96A

[Segev]

Unfortunately Glyph of Warding also states that the summoned creatures immediately attacks, which is what you were trying to prevent by keeping concentration in the first place.

Glyph of Warding: "If the spell summons hostile creatures or creates harmful objects or traps, they appear as close as possible to the intruder and attack it."

In the words of Henry Jones, Senior: https://youtu.be/fQddvU1W96A
Planar binding, which is what is in the glyph, isn’t summoning or conjuring or creating the creature. It is targeting the creature and binding it to the caster.

[MaxWilson]

Planar binding, which is what is in the glyph, isn’t summoning or conjuring or creating the creature. It is targeting the creature and binding it to the caster.

Yes, but by the time Planar Binding goes off, concentration is no longer a limitation. (Planar Binding's duration is not based on concentration.) I thought the question at this point was more about "what happened when you lose concentration and the elemental attacks you?"

The other question has already been answered: 24 hours is a longer duration than (1 hour or until concentration ceases), and so 24 hours is the only relevant duration once Planar Binding is in effect.


By the strictest RAW, they screwed up the casting time of planar binding. It should have been 10 minutes, thirty minutes, or anything anything shy of one hour.

Or (B) conjure elemental needs to last for an hour and a minute or something.

(A) It is clear that the intent is for a single caster to be able to cast an inverted magic circle, conjure an elemental into the circle, break concentration and let the circle contain it while he immediately begins the planar binding spell, all finishing up just in time for the elemental to make or fail the save and be bound or vanish.

I agree with (A) but not (B). AFAICT, (A) works by RAW exactly the way it's intended to. Again, "1 round" Blade Ward duration doesn't mean it vanishes halfway through your next turn, it means it vanishes at the end of your next turn. Therefore, a spell with a duration of 1 hour lasts just long enough to finish another spell with a casting time of 1 hour, so Planar Binding works as intended.

[Valmark]

I agree with (A) but not (B). AFAICT, (A) works by RAW exactly the way it's intended to. Again, "1 round" Blade Ward duration doesn't mean it vanishes halfway through your next turn, it means it vanishes at the end of your next turn. Therefore, a spell with a duration of 1 hour lasts just long enough to finish another spell with a casting time of 1 hour, so Planar Binding works as intended.

The problem lies in the fact that if you measure the time through rounds and turns then you cannot Planar Bind and if you keep it abstract then... You cannot Planar Bind.

Planar Binding needs to be casted after Conjure Elemental, so if CE ends at the end of the turn PB won't be able to finish since it would take another turn.
If you don't consider rounds then obviously with equal Duration the spell casted first will end before the other.

Exception is the Glyph- Planar Binding takes effect immediately when the elemental appears.

[Satori01]

There is no timing issue between Conjure Elemental and Planar Binding, assuming the DM doesn't try to make one.

CE has a 1 Minute casting time. So for 1 minute, your Action and Concentration is used to bring forth the elemental.

So either at the end of your turn on round 10 of casting Conjure Elemental, or the start of your turn on round 11, the Elemental appears.

You now have your Action and Concentration back, as CE casting is concluded, and can start casting Planar Binding.

As long as the elemental is in an inverted Magic Circle you are safe, presuming you are out of reach.

If your DM is always saying that you mistimed Planar Binding, they have actually just banned the spell, without explicitly saying so. ;)

Using a Glyph of Warding to cast Planar Binding in the way described above in the thread, doesn't work, because Planar Binding requires the target creature to be in range during the entire casting of the spell.

Which, alas, is not what is happening.

As a DM, I would allow a player that had bound an elemental with Planar Binding to then store in a Glyph of Warding a Conjure Elemental spell geared to summon the specific elemental bound by the player.

Unfortunately a Glyph of Warding for Planar Binding uses is just not workable solution.

[MaxWilson]

The problem lies in the fact that if you measure the time through rounds and turns then you cannot Planar Bind and if you keep it abstract then... You cannot Planar Bind.

I find the opposite. You can Planar Bind.

For one-round spells:
Round 1. Cast Blade Ward
Round 2. Cast Fireball. Then Blade Ward expires, because 2-1 is 1 round and Blade Ward lasts one round.

For 600-round spells:
Round 1-10. Cast Conjure Elemental. Spell goes off on round 10.
Round 11-610. Cast Planar Binding. Spell goes off on round 610. Then Conjure Elemental would expire, because 610-10 is 600 rounds/1 hour and Conjure Elemental lasts an hour, but Planar Binding has already gone off and extended the duration to 24 hours/10 days/whatever.

[JackPhoenix]

I find the opposite. You can Planar Bind.

For one-round spells:
Round 1. Cast Blade Ward
Round 2. Cast Fireball. Then Blade Ward expires, because 2-1 is 1 round and Blade Ward lasts one round.

For 600-round spells:
Round 1-10. Cast Conjure Elemental. Spell goes off on round 10.
Round 11-610. Cast Planar Binding. Spell goes off on round 610. Then Conjure Elemental would expire, because 610-10 is 600 rounds/1 hour and Conjure Elemental lasts an hour, but Planar Binding has already gone off and extended the duration to 24 hours/10 days/whatever.

Conjure Elemental isn't 600-round spell. It's 1-hour spell. A round isn't an unit of measuring time, it's an abstract construct that only exists to make combat playable.

Besides, you can't do it on your own anyway. Conjure Elemental ends the moment you start casting Planar Binding due to broken concentration, the elemental disappears 1 hour (not 600 rounds) after it appeared, due to spell's wording. Planar Binding can't extend the duration of a spell that has already ended.

[Valmark]

Using a Glyph of Warding to cast Planar Binding in the way described above in the thread, doesn't work, because Planar Binding requires the target creature to be in range during the entire casting of the spell.

Which, alas, is not what is happening.

As a DM, I would allow a player that had bound an elemental with Planar Binding to then store in a Glyph of Warding a Conjure Elemental spell geared to summon the specific elemental bound by the player.

Unfortunately a Glyph of Warding for Planar Binding uses is just not workable solution.

If what you said was true you could never set up traps using spells like, say, Hold Person because you don't have a target. And the Glyph clearly mentions spells that target a creature.

Unless you are Glyphing a spell with a specific target that is present at the moment and that sticks around to trigger it which... Is possible, I guess, but way more situational then the other interpretation.


Conjure Elemental isn't 600-round spell. It's 1-hour spell. A round isn't an unit of measuring time, it's an abstract construct that only exists to make combat playable.

Besides, you can't do it on your own anyway. Conjure Elemental ends the moment you start casting Planar Binding due to broken concentration, the elemental disappears 1 hour (not 600 rounds) after it appeared, due to spell's wording. Planar Binding can't extend the duration of a spell that has already ended.

Uh. I had forgotten about that issue. This make Planar Binding an Elemental impossible because it takes two different turns from two different people.

Impossible without Glyphing. For what's worth @MaxWilson I was going to say that your post was correct.

[MaxWilson]

I say the DM needs to rule in your favor because they could just as well decide that CE ends at the start of your turn (so it would expire on round 610 before you take the last action) or even decide that it lasts for 600 turns of the elemental, which would make it a matter of who wins initiative (Improbable but possible).[/S] yeah look past this.

Yes, they could rule the other way because there's at least one spell (Shield) which has a duration of 1 round but actually ends much sooner than that (sometimes in only a tiny fraction of a round, if you cast it against whoever has the turn right before your turn). In theory, Conjure Elemental could be that same way without violating RAW, ending a fraction of a turn before you have a chance to finish casting it.

I think it's an unfair and unnatural reading, but that doesn't mean you won't meet DMs who think that way.

[Segev]

I hope MaxWilson is correct. However, to examine this, I'm going to make a hypothetical house rule: Conjure elemental now has a duration of exactly 2 rounds (and we'll ignore concentration), and planar binding now has a casting time of 2 rounds.

Round 1: Cast conjure elemental.
Round 2: Conjure elemental's first round is over, and you begin casting planar binding.
Round 3: Conjure elemental's second round is over and it ends, and you finish casting planar binding.

I can see the argument.

But let's add a third thing: Due to a weird class feature, you cast witch bolt whenever you cast conjure elemental, and it lasts for the duration of conjure elemental.

Round 1: Cast conjure elemental. Witch bolt goes off, dealing 1d12 damage to some monster that can't get away from you for reasons.
Round 2: Conjure elemental's first round is over, and you begin casting planar bidning. Witch bolt deals another 1d12 damage to its victim.
Round 3: Conjure elemental's second round is over and it ends, and you finish casting planar binding. Does witch bolt deal another 1d12?

i.e., if witch bolt has a duration of exactly 2 rounds, does it deal 3d12 damage over its duration (under ideal circumstances)?

[MaxWilson]

I hope MaxWilson is correct. However, to examine this, I'm going to make a hypothetical house rule: Conjure elemental now has a duration of exactly 2 rounds (and we'll ignore concentration), and planar binding now has a casting time of 2 rounds.

Round 1: Cast conjure elemental.
Round 2: Conjure elemental's first round is over, and you begin casting planar binding.
Round 3: Conjure elemental's second round is over and it ends, and you finish casting planar binding.

I can see the argument.

But let's add a third thing: Due to a weird class feature, you cast witch bolt whenever you cast conjure elemental, and it lasts for the duration of conjure elemental.

Round 1: Cast conjure elemental. Witch bolt goes off, dealing 1d12 damage to some monster that can't get away from you for reasons.
Round 2: Conjure elemental's first round is over, and you begin casting planar bidning. Witch bolt deals another 1d12 damage to its victim.
Round 3: Conjure elemental's second round is over and it ends, and you finish casting planar binding. Does witch bolt deal another 1d12?

i.e., if witch bolt has a duration of exactly 2 rounds, does it deal 3d12 damage over its duration (under ideal circumstances)?

Witch Bolt requires you to use your action to deal 1d12 (yes, it's that bad!), and your action was busy casting Planar Binding, so it doesn't do 3d12.

Maybe a better example, which doesn't require any weird class features, is Haste. Haste lasts for up to 1 minute and grants you an additional action on each round. If you cast Haste on someone else, it's clear: they get 10 extra actions before your 10th next turn ends. But what if you cast it on yourself? Do you get 10 extra actions or 11? 5E doesn't say how duration is measured (except for specific spells like Blade Ward), and most people tend to just ignore this issue because they don't have fights that last longer than 3-5 rounds.

Your DM will have to make a ruling.

[Satori01]

If what you said was true you could never set up traps using spells like, say, Hold Person because you don't have a target. And the Glyph clearly mentions spells that target a creature.
.

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. It is the Planar Binding Spell that has the requirement that the creature has to be present during the casting of the spell.

So a Planar Binding spell stored in a Spell Glyph version of Glyph of Warding, and triggered to target an elemental in range doesn't help, because the elemental in range hasn't been in range of the Planar Binding spell for the entirety of casting Planar Binding.

You explicitly are casting the spell that is being saved in the Spell Glyph as part of the creation of the Glyph.

[Satori01]

Conjure Elemental isn't 600-round spell. It's 1-hour spell. A round isn't an unit of measuring time, it's an abstract construct that only exists to make combat playable.

Besides, you can't do it on your own anyway. Conjure Elemental ends the moment you start casting Planar Binding due to broken concentration, the elemental disappears 1 hour (not 600 rounds) after it appeared, due to spell's wording. Planar Binding can't extend the duration of a spell that has already ended.

Right, but that just means you are using Planar Binding on a Free Willed elemental, and Planar Binding has no interaction now with the spell that brought the elemental.

Planar Binding certainly has tricky interactions. While most people would never do this, since the demons summoned by SLD spell are automatically hostile, using Planar Binding with SLD creates unreliable servants. Always.

[Valmark]

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding. It is the Planar Binding Spell that has the requirement that the creature has to be present during the casting of the spell.

So a Planar Binding spell stored in a Spell Glyph version of Glyph of Warding, and triggered to target an elemental in range doesn't help, because the elemental in range hasn't been in range of the Planar Binding spell for the entirety of casting Planar Binding.

You explicitly are casting the spell that is being saved in the Spell Glyph as part of the creation of the Glyph.

So you can cast hold person on a wall (regardless of wether it'll fail or not)?

Another issue is that while you are 'casting' a spell you aren't going through the whole casting time. Let's say I use Glyph of Warding to inscribe Banishment- I'm never using an action to cast the second spell.

Let's say I want to inscribe Awaken- I'm not spending 8 hours for it.

Let's say I want to inscribe Alarm- I'm not spending 1 minute casting it.

I don't even pick which spell it is if at all until the casting time of Glyph is done!

[JackPhoenix]

Right, but that just means you are using Planar Binding on a Free Willed elemental, and Planar Binding has no interaction now with the spell that brought the elemental.

Which doesn't really help you, because even if you cast the PB (propably through Wish, or by using common sense instead of RAW), the elemental is still gonna disappear an hour after it was summoned. It's still bound, but good luck making any use of it while it's in its home plane.


So you can cast hold person on a wall (regardless of wether it'll fail or not)?

You can, per XGtE's clarification on what happens when you try to cast a spell on invalid target.


Another issue is that while you are 'casting' a spell you aren't going through the whole casting time. Let's say I use Glyph of Warding to inscribe Banishment- I'm never using an action to cast the second spell.

Let's say I want to inscribe Awaken- I'm not spending 8 hours for it.

Let's say I want to inscribe Alarm- I'm not spending 1 minute casting it.

I don't even pick which spell it is if at all until the casting time of Glyph is done!

You must cast the spell as a part of the GoW's casting to create a spell glyph. That means you'll have to do it at some point before the casting of GoW is finished, though it is not specified when, and there's nothing suggesting you get to ignore the spell's casting time.

You're not spending 8 hours to create GoW with Awaken: You're spending 9 hours, one for the GoW, eight for Awaken during the process of casting GoW.

[Satori01]

You can rule it that way. The consequence is that Planar Binding is nigh useless.


I hope you express this during Session 0, or allow a Player to replace a spell that doesn't meet their expectations.

[Valmark]

You can, per XGtE's clarification on what happens when you try to cast a spell on invalid target.

You must cast the spell as a part of the GoW's casting to create a spell glyph. That means you'll have to do it at some point before the casting of GoW is finished, though it is not specified when, and there's nothing suggesting you get to ignore the spell's casting time.

You're not spending 8 hours to create GoW with Awaken: You're spending 9 hours, one for the GoW, eight for Awaken during the process of casting GoW.

I feel like the notion that you can try to Hold Person a wall and similar stuff shouldn't be making me laugh this much.

Anyway, there IS something that suggests you ignore the casting time of the other spell. You need to cast it while creating the Glyph, which takes an hour- and while casting a spell with a longer casting time you can't stop doing it or the spell is interrupted. Nor can you hold Glyph until the second spell is completed.

[Twelvetrees]

Which doesn't really help you, because even if you cast the PB (propably through Wish, or by using common sense instead of RAW), the elemental is still gonna disappear an hour after it was summoned. It's still bound, but good luck making any use of it while it's in its home plane.
Have I got it right that your position would be that this line from Conjure Elemental causes the Elemental to disappear despite being Planar Bound because it isn’t the original caster that is controlling it?

An uncontrolled elemental can't be dismissed by you, and it disappears 1 hour after you summoned it.

I agree that was probably RAI, but it from what I can tell by RAW, the elemental wouldn’t meet the uncontrolled criteria for that statement to apply.


But this brings up an interesting point. From my reading of it, if a cleric were to cast Conjure Celestial and a wizard were to Planar Bind it, the celestial disappears if the cleric drops their concentration on Conjure Celestial. I doubt that’s RAI, but it seems to be the case by RAW.


And because I stumbled across this while digging into the details of Planar Binding, does anyone know how this clause of Infernal Calling would interact with Planar Binding (assuming two different casters)? I think the devil still disappears after 3d6 minutes, but would still be under the control of the caster of Planar Binding during that time.
If your concentration ends before the spell reaches its full duration, the devil doesn‘t disappear if it has become immune to your verbal commands. Instead, it acts in whatever manner it chooses for 3d6 minutes, and then it disappears.

[Valmark]

I think Jack's saying that RAW the elemental disappears because the spell has already ended, regardless of who casted what.

If the cleric drops Concentration before the celestial is Binded yeah it goes home. Otherwise no because Duration becomes 24 hours.

The devil would still be under control if Binding worked.

[JackPhoenix]

Have I got it right that your position would be that this line from Conjure Elemental causes the Elemental to disappear despite being Planar Bound because it isn’t the original caster that is controlling it?

No, the elemental disappears because Conjure Elemental ended before it was bound, thus there's no spell to extend the duration of to match the PB. Note that there's a difference between broken concentration and willingly ended concentration: the elemental will only stick around if the caster's concentration is broken (by failing the save when damaged, by being incapacitated or by casting another concentration spell), not if the caster simply stops concentrating.


But this brings up an interesting point. From my reading of it, if a cleric were to cast Conjure Celestial and a wizard were to Planar Bind it, the celestial disappears if the cleric drops their concentration on Conjure Celestial. I doubt that’s RAI, but it seems to be the case by RAW.

Not if the wizard finishes PB before the cleric stops concentrating. It's a detail of the wording: the celestial disappears when the spell ends, but successful PB extends CC's duration to match itself (24 hour or more, depending on slot used, with no concentration requirement).


And because I stumbled across this while digging into the details of Planar Binding, does anyone know how this clause of Infernal Calling would interact with Planar Binding (assuming two different casters)? I think the devil still disappears after 3d6 minutes, but would still be under the control of the caster of Planar Binding during that time.

Yep. It's the difference in wording again: Infernal Calling lists what happens when the caster's concentration ends, not just when it's broken, like Conjure Elemental, or when the spell ends, like Conjure Celestial. That means the devil *always* stick around for 3d6 minutes, regardless if the caster got hit in the face and failed his Con save to maintain concentration, stopped concentrating on his own, or because the spell's duration (and thus the caster's concentration) ended.

[Satori01]

No, the elemental disappears because Conjure Elemental ended before it was bound, thus there's no spell to extend the duration of to match the PB. Note that there's a difference between broken concentration and willingly ended concentration: the elemental will only stick around if the caster's concentration is broken (by failing the save when damaged, by being incapacitated or by casting another concentration spell), not if the caster simply stops concentrating.


Firstly the difference between ending Concentration and having one's Concentration broken is semantic, and does not result in differing results...in either situation you lose Concentration.

Secondly as the Hour Long casting time of Planar Binding does indeed require your Concentration, then as Soon as you start casting PB, your Concentration breaks, and by your reasoning Jack, the elemental sticks around for 1 hour, and is subject to PB.

PHB pg 203:
Normal activity, such as moving and attacking, doesn't interfere with concentration. The following factors can break concentration:
• Casting another spell that requires concentration . You lose concentration on a spell if you cast another spell that requires concentration. You can't concen*trate on two spells at once.
Taking damage . Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentra* tion. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. Ifyou take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage.
• Being incapacitated or killed. You lose concentration on a spell if you are incapacitated or if you die.

[Twelvetrees]

Not if the wizard finishes PB before the cleric stops concentrating. It's a detail of the wording: the celestial disappears when the spell ends, but successful PB extends CC's duration to match itself (24 hour or more, depending on slot used, with no concentration requirement).


Emphasis mine. Can you point me to something that would indicate that there is no concentration requirement? As far as I can tell by RAW, this line from Planar Binding does not change the original spell's duration in such a way that the requirement would be removed.

If the creature was summoned or created by another spell, that spell's duration is extended to match the duration of this spell.
If it said something like “that spell’s duration changes to match the duration of this spell", I’d agree that is no longer required concentration (and it seems like that is likely RAI), but extended appears to indicate that only the length of time is changed.


I'd likely go with RAI in an actual game. My goal here is to see if how Planar Binding works RAW is really as silly as I think it is.

[Valmark]

Emphasis mine. Can you point me to something that would indicate that there is no concentration requirement? As far as I can tell by RAW, this line from Planar Binding does not change the original spell's duration in such a way that the requirement would be removed.

If it said something like “that spell’s duration changes to match the duration of this spell", I’d agree that is no longer required concentration (and it seems like that is likely RAI), but extended appears to indicate that only the length of time is changed.


I'd likely go with RAI in an actual game. My goal here is to see if how Planar Binding works RAW is really as silly as I think it is.

Spells that require Concentration list it as the Duration. Keeping Conjure Elemental as an example, the Duration isn't "1 hour as long as you keep Concentration" but is "Concentration, up to 1 hour". The Duration IS Concentration.

If you extend "Concentration, up to X time" to "24 hours" you effectively get rid of Concentration.

[Twelvetrees]

Spells that require Concentration list it as the Duration. Keeping Conjure Elemental as an example, the Duration isn't "1 hour as long as you keep Concentration" but is "Concentration, up to 1 hour". The Duration IS Concentration.

If you extend "Concentration, up to X time" to "24 hours" you effectively get rid of Concentration.

That’s…actually quite a good point. It took me a bit to wrap my head around, but I can see the logic behind that. Well reasoned.

[JackPhoenix]

Firstly the difference between ending Concentration and having one's Concentration broken is semantic, and does not result in differing results...in either situation you lose Concentration.

You're losing the concentration in both cases, but there is a difference (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/01/25/is-ending-concentration-willingly-the-same-as-breaking-concentration/) between the concentration being broken and being ended willingly. Conjure Elemental is one such example, where the means matters, not just the result.


Secondly as the Hour Long casting time of Planar Binding does indeed require your Concentration, then as Soon as you start casting PB, your Concentration breaks, and by your reasoning Jack, the elemental sticks around for 1 hour, and is subject to PB.

Indeed. That's what I said before.


Anyway, there IS something that suggests you ignore the casting time of the other spell. You need to cast it while creating the Glyph, which takes an hour- and while casting a spell with a longer casting time you can't stop doing it or the spell is interrupted. Nor can you hold Glyph until the second spell is completed.

You don't have to hold anything: GoW's description presents a specific exception to the spellcasting rules, where you not only can, but have to cast both spells as part of GoW's casting. If you don't cast the other spell... and when you cast something, you'll need to use the normal casting time unless a specific exception says otherwise... you can't create the spell glyph. BB/GFB do something similar, where you have to make melee attack with a weapon to cast the spell successfully.

There's an exception, of course: using Wish to duplicate the effect allows you to ignore the requirement, but that's somewhat... inefficient... way to go around that.

[Segev]

To be fair, wish-casting planar binding does solve all the timing problems unambiguously.

[Valmark]

You don't have to hold anything: GoW's description presents a specific exception to the spellcasting rules, where you not only can, but have to cast both spells as part of GoW's casting. If you don't cast the other spell... and when you cast something, you'll need to use the normal casting time unless a specific exception says otherwise... you can't create the spell glyph. BB/GFB do something similar, where you have to make melee attack with a weapon to cast the spell successfully.

So, you agree that it is an exception to normal casting, agree that there is a precedent (BB/GFB using an action to make an attack together with the spell) but somehow GoW needs to act differently?

[Eriol]

Spells that require Concentration list it as the Duration. Keeping Conjure Elemental as an example, the Duration isn't "1 hour as long as you keep Concentration" but is "Concentration, up to 1 hour". The Duration IS Concentration.

If you extend "Concentration, up to X time" to "24 hours" you effectively get rid of Concentration.
This is probably the best and clearest way to express this concept. It was what I was getting at originally. Thank you.

[Chronos]

Or to put it another way, "Concentration, up to 24 hours" does not match "24 hours". You extend the summoning spell so its duration matches.