Death from Above - Aasimar Natural Weapons Character

[Atar]

This is just a proof of concept. Just something fun to play around with in my head. I am not seriously considering playing this in any game (Pathfinder or other). Yet I am unclear on some game mechanics since it has been a while and remembered these forums from way back when I was playing PnP. What was it? 18 years ago? DAMN!
Anyways...! Since this character started forming in my head, I can't seem to let it go and it also gives me an opportunity to dive deeper into Pathfinder, which I have never really done before. It might be hard to get this guy to cooperate with a goody-two-shoes party, so maybe I am imagining this for an evil campaign or as an NPC. I am listening to the Evil Is As Evil Does podcast, so you can imagine where this is coming from ;)

So yeah, this character would outwardly be the most standup, holier-than-thou Aasimar you can imagine. Brightly colored eyes, hair flowing in the wind, big white angel wings on his back. Speaks like an angel, flies around like an angel, looks like an angel, but acts like a devil. He would be a smooth talker (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Disguise), totally able to be the face of the party or a spy of some kind. He would be evil aligned, but outwardly posing as a goody-two-shoes. He has a number of natural weapons hidden away and uses them with great precision and furiosity. Steel talons for fingers and toes, steel teeth for a bite and his wings pack a punch as well. If you have ever seen two cats fight, imagine that kind of energy but then landing on you from above. The fact that this will be a pure rogue has something to do with that as well.

I went with Pathfinder because I have played it only once and fell in love with the ways that you can make your character truly unique. I am thinking traits, rogue talents, etc.
Race will be pure Aasimar, with the traits Innocent and Accelerated Drinker. I have never gone pure Rogue before, never felt it was good enough to stick with throughout the full 20 or so levels. But Pathfinder is giving me all kinds of cool stuff to play around with so I'll make this my first pure rogue build. Alignment will most likely be Lawful Evil, of the Swindler variety. This guy has no aspirations to become the next dictator, much better to influence from the shadows and use the rules of the system to carve out a place of comfort, wealth and luxury.

This character started to form when I saw this feat called Metallic Wings in the Aasimar feat list.

Your wing feathers are made of gleaming metal

Prerequisites: Angelic Blood, Angelic Flesh, Angel Wings, Aasimar, character level 11th.

Benefit: You gain two wing attacks. These are secondary natural attacks that deal 1d4 points of slashing damage (or 1d3 if you are Small).

Then later I found Lost Promise:

Lost Promise: While many view aasimars’ beauty and celestial powers as a gift, in some communities an aasimar might be persecuted for being different and fall into darkness. The forces of evil delight in such a perversion of their celestial counterparts’ gifts. As long as the aasimar retains an evil alignment, she gains the maw or claw tiefling alternate racial trait. This racial trait replaces the spell-like ability racial trait.
Source PZO9280

After a long ass search through the interwebs to find a 5th (or more) Natural Attack (and not liking the Cheese of most options) I ended up reading all of the Aasimar page and found this in the Variant Aasimar Abilities:


6 - You possess taloned fingers that act as natural weapons and deal 1d4 points of damage.

This allows me to switch Lost Promise to a bite attack and I end up with 5 Natural Attacks. Also in the Alternative Physical Features table I found this: "46 - Legs: clawed feet". Its just for flavor, but now all my extremities could be RPed to participate in the fight.

Granted that this is subject to DM approval, I now have two primary Natural Attacks and one secondary. Making my full attack action: BAB (Claws), BAB (Claws), BAB (Bite), BAB -5 (Wing), BAB -5 (Wing).

[I]Right? I am unclear if I missed anything and I would appreciate your input. I used to be quite the rules lawyer, back in 3.0. But maybe I am overlooking something.

A second question comes in after reading through the ****-ton of Rogue Talents there are: Could I use the Deft Palm and Underhanded talents on this character? I mean, logic says that I should be able to disguise/cover up my talons and bite attack. But Natural Attacks are not weapons/objects and the internet hasn't given me any 100% sure answers.

Thirdly, what do you think? Do you like the flavor? Anything you would change? I have a lot of other ideas to go along with this one but I thought I'd keep it short.

Kind regards,
Bram

ps. I originally included links to everything but the forum doesn't allow me to post them. My apologies.

[Atar]

1800 views and no replies?

Bump! :D

[Psyren]

This is just a proof of concept. Just something fun to play around with in my head. I am not seriously considering playing this in any game (Pathfinder or other). Yet I am unclear on some game mechanics since it has been a while and remembered these forums from way back when I was playing PnP. What was it? 18 years ago? DAMN!
Anyways...! Since this character started forming in my head, I can't seem to let it go and it also gives me an opportunity to dive deeper into Pathfinder, which I have never really done before. It might be hard to get this guy to cooperate with a goody-two-shoes party, so maybe I am imagining this for an evil campaign or as an NPC. I am listening to the Evil Is As Evil Does podcast, so you can imagine where this is coming from ;)

So yeah, this character would outwardly be the most standup, holier-than-thou Aasimar you can imagine. Brightly colored eyes, hair flowing in the wind, big white angel wings on his back. Speaks like an angel, flies around like an angel, looks like an angel, but acts like a devil. He would be a smooth talker (Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, Disguise), totally able to be the face of the party or a spy of some kind. He would be evil aligned, but outwardly posing as a goody-two-shoes. He has a number of natural weapons hidden away and uses them with great precision and furiosity. Steel talons for fingers and toes, steel teeth for a bite and his wings pack a punch as well. If you have ever seen two cats fight, imagine that kind of energy but then landing on you from above. The fact that this will be a pure rogue has something to do with that as well.

I went with Pathfinder because I have played it only once and fell in love with the ways that you can make your character truly unique. I am thinking traits, rogue talents, etc.
Race will be pure Aasimar, with the traits Innocent and Accelerated Drinker. I have never gone pure Rogue before, never felt it was good enough to stick with throughout the full 20 or so levels. But Pathfinder is giving me all kinds of cool stuff to play around with so I'll make this my first pure rogue build. Alignment will most likely be Lawful Evil, of the Swindler variety. This guy has no aspirations to become the next dictator, much better to influence from the shadows and use the rules of the system to carve out a place of comfort, wealth and luxury.

A big part of this character started to form when I saw this feat called Metallic Wings in the Aasimar feat list.


Then later I found Lost Promise:


After a long ass search through the interwebs to find a 5th (or more) Natural Attack (and not liking the Cheese of most options) I ended up reading all of the Aasimar page and found this in the Variant Aasimar Abilities:

This allows me to switch Lost Promise to a bite attack and I end up with 5 Natural Attacks. Also in the Alternative Physical Features table I found this: "46 - Legs: clawed feet". Its just for flavor, but now all my extremities could be RPed to participate in the fight.

Granted that this is subject to DM approval, I now have two primary Natural Attacks and one secondary. Making my full attack action: BAB (Claws), BAB (Claws), BAB (Bite), BAB -5 (Wing), BAB -5 (Wing).

Right? I am unclear if I missed anything and I would appreciate your input. I used to be quite the rules lawyer, back in 3.0. But maybe I am overlooking something.

I can't speak for the entire forum obviously, but from my perspective your opening post is a bit dense with unnecessary background and thus might have been a bit of a turnoff. I'd recommend putting most of the fluff/concept stuff on your character in spoiler tags (see the way I did it above) and just leaving the rules questions outside of it for a quicker answer since that's what you're really after.

Anyway - to answer your first question - so long as your GM allows you to pick specific options from the variant table then yes, you should be able to end up with 5 separate natural attacks this way. The bite and two claws will be primary and the two wings will be secondary.


A second question comes in after reading through the ****-ton of Rogue Talents there are: Could I use the Deft Palm and Underhanded talents on this character? I mean, logic says that I should be able to disguise/cover up my talons and bite attack. But Natural Attacks are not weapons/objects and the internet hasn't given me any 100% sure answers.

Neither of these rogue talents will do the trick - they're for hiding "held objects" and "held weapons" (see the Sleight of Hand skill.) Natural weapons are neither objects nor held; hiding them will usually require Disguise instead.


Thirdly, what do you think? Do you like the flavor? Anything you would change? I have a lot of other ideas to go along with this one but I thought I'd keep it short.

The trouble with rogue for this is that you probably want to be dex-based, and getting dex to damage on a natural attack-based character is a pain in the neck. It's unclear if the Agile property can be placed on Amulet of Mighty Fists, the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training will only apply to all three of your weapons at 19th(!) level, Fencing Grace doesn't work with them either etc. You can try foregoing Dex to damage and relying on sneak attack instead, but that's going to be a noticeable damage hit, especially against enemies where your sneak attack can't be triggered.

Aasimar also usually don't make good rogues, at least fluffwise in my opinion. They can't help but be noticeable; whether it's metallic hair, piercing gaze, shining skin, booming voice etc. None of that imposes a mechanical penalty, so you can probably ignore it, but it makes the concept a bit difficult for me to swallow personally. Not only that, but I've seen the "secretly evil Aasimar" subversion cliché so many times that I've come all the way back around again to the good ones being noteworthy. Again, you wanted personal opinions so that's mine.

[Firest Kathon]

Instead of a rogue, you may be better off with a Strength-based (unchained) monk build. Take Feral Combat Training (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/feral-combat-training-combat/) (several times) to include your natural attacks in your flurry of blows. Fluff your monk unarmed strikes as done with your foot claws, then all your limbs will be involved. You can take the Scaled Fist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/scaled-fist-monk-archetype/) archetype to use Charisma instead of Wisdom for you monk abilities.

If third-party stuff is allowed, you could take Natural Unarmed Strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/petersen-games-feats/natural-unarmed-strike-combat/) instead to get all your monk attacks plus all of your natural attacks.

The problem with monk would be your social skills. If you are not too invested in your traits yet, you could switch them out for some that grant you Bluff and Diplomacy. Alternatively you could take the Sage Counselor (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo-monk-archetypes/sage-counselor-monk-archetype/) monk archetype for at least Bluff and Diplomacy as class skills, but I am not sure how compatible it is with Scaled Fist, as both modify the bonus feats, albeit in different ways. Others on this forum (Psyren?) can probably give more qualified advise on that. The final, but probably least desirable alternative, would be to cross-class into a more social class (Bard, Rogue, Mesmerist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/mesmerist/)).

---

Alternatively to the monk, you could look into the Slayer (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/), especially the Velvet Blade (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/archetypes/paizo-slayer-archetypes/velvet-blade-slayer-archetype/) archetype, for a more martial version of the rogue, or the Mesmerist (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/occult-adventures/occult-classes/mesmerist/) for a very social-focused class.

[Atar]

My apologies for not responding earlier. I have taken your feedback and moved things around a bit, also I answered in my original question. I cannot take both a bite and two claw attacks because both those abilities sacrifice the spell-like ability an Aasimar gets. For now I'll just go with the two claw attacks and two wing attacks, there is a cheesy exploit where you take the Adopted trait and then get a bite attack through Toothy (Half-Orc). But that just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe a Ring of Rat Fangs or some other item. There is plenty of items to give Natural Attacks (I have found I could get up to 6 or 7 NAs).

I also took into account the RP side of things and though I am not familiar with any 'fallen' Aasimar, I can imagine it to be a trope or cliche. Its a pitty but I agree it might be cheesy.

So I have turned the flavor around a bit, the character would still be rogue centered but it has a bit of cleric mixed in to account for the divine influence. Also, being evil is no longer a requirement.

So the synergy that I found centers around two archetypes: Scout Rogue and Divine Strategist.

Scout Rogue gets to have sneak attack(s) on a charge. Also gets SA after moving at least 10 feet. 12 levels of Rogue gives me Crippling Strike and Petrifying Strike (2 Str or Dex damage per succesful SA). Sneak attack will be the main method of dealing damage but in theory this rogue could be str based as well. One Rogue Talent of particular interest is Underhanded (max sneak attack damage with a concealed weapon during surprise round).

The Divine Strategist always acts during a surprise round, gets a nice bonus to Initiative and adds its int bonus to attack rolls. I'd take 8 levels of Cleric.

There is no definitive errata on this but most people agree that Clerics can take Druid/Animal/Terrain domains. in which case the Plains domain gives me Pounce (once per day). It also adds three super useful spells: 2nd—chameleon stride, 3rd—haste, 4th—aspect of the stag.
If not allowed there are plenty of other great domains out there.

As far as skills go, perception is extremely important so I get to act during the surprise round.

So my thinking is: conceal/disguise my claws, when a surprise round happens I charge the biggest baddy. Scout makes that first attack a sneak attack and underhanded maximizes the attack damage. Maybe add in the Sap Adept and Sap Master feats so I can double my SA dice?
Next round the rogue talent Fast Getaway allows for a move action withdraw, pop a potion or cast a spell like Haste and the round after that I can Pounce into battle again getting a sneak attack on every single attack. By then I can switch to flanking or Feint, or withdraw and attack by flying charge.

Your thoughts?

[Atar]

Ah also I have read that Chameleon Stride would allow me to basically Hide in Plane Sight. Because it offers concealment... Any words of wisdom on that?

[Atar]

I can't speak for the entire forum obviously, but from my perspective your opening post is a bit dense with unnecessary background and thus might have been a bit of a turnoff. I'd recommend putting most of the fluff/concept stuff on your character in spoiler tags (see the way I did it above) and just leaving the rules questions outside of it for a quicker answer since that's what you're really after.

Cheers, I fixed it.



Neither of these rogue talents will do the trick - they're for hiding "held objects" and "held weapons" (see the Sleight of Hand skill.) Natural weapons are neither objects nor held; hiding them will usually require Disguise instead.

Would I be able to still use this feat though? The feat just says "if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about."
No mention of S



The trouble with rogue for this is that you probably want to be dex-based, and getting dex to damage on a natural attack-based character is a pain in the neck. It's unclear if the Agile property can be placed on Amulet of Mighty Fists, the Unchained Rogue's Finesse Training will only apply to all three of your weapons at 19th(!) level, Fencing Grace doesn't work with them either etc. You can try foregoing Dex to damage and relying on sneak attack instead, but that's going to be a noticeable damage hit, especially against enemies where your sneak attack can't be triggered.
Finesse still applies to NAs though right?
And I changed this character around so it can go full plate if needed (a Mitrhil breastplate is probably best though).


Aasimar also usually don't make good rogues, at least fluffwise in my opinion. They can't help but be noticeable; whether it's metallic hair, piercing gaze, shining skin, booming voice etc. None of that imposes a mechanical penalty, so you can probably ignore it, but it makes the concept a bit difficult for me to swallow personally. Not only that, but I've seen the "secretly evil Aasimar" subversion cliché so many times that I've come all the way back around again to the good ones being noteworthy. Again, you wanted personal opinions so that's mine.
Yeah, but I saw this more as a fighting rogue than a Face. And if he were to act as a face he'd be in disguise because an Aasimar stands out pretty bad and he doesn't want to be known.

Cheers for your feedback though, I like the character a lot better now! :D I still could run this as a secretly evil PC, but no need.
-------------------------------------------

Instead of a rogue, you may be better off with a Strength-based (unchained) monk build. Take Feral Combat Training (several times) to include your natural attacks in your flurry of blows. Fluff your monk unarmed strikes as done with your foot claws, then all your limbs will be involved. You can take the Scaled Fist archetype to use Charisma instead of Wisdom for you monk abilities.


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I didn't know about those feats to include natural weapons. I will have to look into them! :D Cheers!

[Psyren]

Would I be able to still use this feat though? The feat just says "if she makes a sneak attack during the surprise round using a concealed weapon that her opponent didn’t know about."
No mention of S

Which feat, Metallic Wings? I think you got cut off there.



Finesse still applies to NAs though right?

It does, but that only covers to-hit - I was speaking about Dex to damage being annoying to get on a bunch of natural attacks.

[Atar]

Which feat, Metallic Wings? I think you got cut off there.

Yeah, I copy pasted a few things and it got cut short. I was talking about Underhanded. Will I be able to use Disguise in conjunction with Underhanded?




It does, but that only covers to-hit - I was speaking about Dex to damage being annoying to get on a bunch of natural attacks.

I guess it does make a lot of difference. I don't see why I couldn't just make this strength based. I discovered quite a few cleric spells that give natural attacks though.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I copy pasted a few things and it got cut short. I was talking about Underhanded. Will I be able to use Disguise in conjunction with Underhanded?

Underhanded is a rogue talent, not a feat - so I gather you're sticking with rogue for this concept then, is that right?

Again, the rules for concealing natural weapons aren't exactly clear, but personally I would let this talent work (the max sneak attack damage part anyway) if you successfully disguised your natural weapons. Discuss with your GM.

[Atar]

Thanks Psyren, that was really helpful. I redesigned the character in post nr 5.

But since then I have switched my interest again because you urged me to look into making this a Strength based character. I did some googling on Str Rogues and came across the Slayer class. Slayer really fits this character well because it has full BAB and can take the Ranger Combat Style 'Natural Attack'. Which includes Multiattack amongst other things (no arguing with a DM over taking Monster feats).

I am still reading through lots of different feats and abilities at the moment. But I am thinking at least 10 Slayer, 8 Cleric (Divine Strategist), maybe 1 Barbarian for the speed bump and 1 something else?

The archetype I am looking into at the moment is Ankou’s Shadow. It has some awesome features, which would allow me to SA most of the time (those shadow duplicates help with flanking). Also, I like the roleplay value of a winged natural attack specialist going into battle with his 3 identical twins (or not, I could stay hidden and let my shadows do the work).

[Atar]

Also, I found this synergy. Which is completely unrelated but could be pretty darn cool.

So there is this weird spell called Groundswell. And it gives you a +1 to attack and you avoid being flanked.


School transmutation [earth]; Level cleric 2, druid 2, magus 2, ranger 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Fort negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

DESCRIPTION

This spell allows the target to cause the ground to rise up beneath him. As a swift action, the target can cause the ground to rise 5 feet, while all adjacent squares are treated as steep slopes. The groundswell precludes flanking from creatures standing at lower elevations than the target. If the target moves after creating a groundswell, the ground returns to its normal elevation at the end of his turn; otherwise, it remains in place until the target moves or uses a swift action to return the ground to normal. A groundswell cannot increase elevation of the ground beyond 5 feet.
(Cheers for telling me about the Spoiler tag btw, very useful)

This spell is quite unimpressive if you ask me. I'd have forgotten about it if I didn't read this Slayer Talent in the same day:


Prerequisite(s): Samsaran

Benefit(s): Samsaran slayers often strike with deadly attacks from above. If a slayer deals sneak attack damage to a creature that is unaware of his presence while he is standing on higher ground than his target, he does not have to roll sneak attack damage; instead, the sneak attack deals maximum damage. The samsaran must be standing on solid ground to use this ability.

Okay, so there is the Samsaran prereq, but if it works it is a pretty sweet combo right? Though I imagine any sane DM would nerf this combo after the first time you use it. Still, that first time would be hella fun! :D