Variant Multiclassing (AD&D/Gygax Style), help with play balance

[dmhelp]

Okay, I normally run a no multiclassing game and this is my attempt at bringing back the 1st/2nd edition Fighter/Wizard where you advance in both classes at once instead of the 3rd edition style of the standard multiclassing rules in 5th edition (which is usually underwhelming for 10/10 splits). The downside in the original 1st edition rules was level limits. I've tentatively set the cap at level 16 (suggesting that theoretically a level 16 Fighter/Wizard is equivalent to a level 20 Wizard), so a variant multiclassed character would only have about 4/5 of the hp of a single classed character. You would also lose out on the level 19 ASI. But compared to a 10/10 split you would be gaining 6th-8th level spells and the 2 class features at levels 11, 13, 14, and 15 (so potentially 8 features depending on the class).

Multiclassing
Choose two classes to be advanced in simultaneously, advancement is slowed based on table below (e.g. if the party has gained the xp of a level 16 single classed character, then a multiclassed Fighter/Wizard would be level 13)
Gain the class features of both classes (e.g. a level 14 Fighter/Wizard has all of the class features of both a level 14 Fighter and a level 14 Wizard)
Take the highest dice size for hit points (e.g. a Fighter/Wizard would get 1d10, or 10 at 1st with 6 for every later level)
Choose one of the classes to determine saving throws (e.g. a Fighter/Wizard could choose Str/Con or Int/Wis)
Gain the highest number of skills between the two classes and choose from both lists (e.g. a Fighter/Rogue would gain 4 skills chosen from either the Fighter or Rogue lists)
Gain the other proficiencies (armor, weapons, and tools) of both classes
No more than one ASI can be gained per level (i.e. a level 4 Fighter/Wizard has only acheived one ASI)
Channel Divinity, Extra Attack, and Spells Known/Prepared are handled per standard multiclassing rules
Spellcasting spell slots do not stack, use the most favorable individual class for determining spell slots (e.g. a level 14 Ranger/Wizard would have the same spell slots of a level 14 Wizard to cast up to 4th level Ranger or 7th level Wizard spells, whereas a level 14 Eldritch Knight/Ranger would have the same spell slots of a level 14 Ranger to cast up to 3rd level Wizard or 4th level Ranger spells)
Caster/Warlock combination spell slots are determined by the Multiclass Spellcaster table (as a full caster) instead of by the Pact Magic feature (e.g. a level 14 Eldritch Knight/Warlock would have up to level 7 spell slots and could use them on up to 3rd level Wizard spells and 7th level Warlock spells, but a level 14 Barbarian/Warlock would use standard Warlock Pact Magic progression)
For caster/Warlock combinations, Mystic Arcanum instead uses spell slots (e.g. a level 14 Sorcerer/Warlock can use their level 6 and 7 spell slots to cast a known Sorcerer, Warlock, or Mystic Arcanum spell); this means a level 6 Mystic Arcanum could be upcast with a level 7 spell slot




Single Classed Level Based on XP Progression
Multiclass Level
Proficiency Bonus


1
1
2


2
1
2


3
2
2


4
3
2


5
4*
3


6
5
3


7
6
3


8
7
3


9
8
4


10
8
4


11
9**
4


12
10
4


13
11
5


14
12
5


15
13
5


16
13
5


17
14***
6


18
15
6


19
15
6


20
16
6


* A 4th level multiclass character counts as character level 5 in regards to cantrip damage.
**A 9th level multiclass character counts as character level 11 in regards to cantrip damage.
***A 14th level multiclass character counts as character level 17 in regards to cantrip damage.

After 355,000 xp, multiclassed characters gain ASIs or Epic Boons at the same rate as single classed characters (every 30,000 xp), but their multiclass level never increases beyond 16.

[MaxWilson]

Not sure what kind of feedback you're looking for but I guess here are my thoughts:

I like the goal, but prefer my own implementation (https://bluishcertainty.blogspot.com/2017/01/5e-old-school-multiclassing-rules_29.html?m=1). Many principles are the same, such as not doubling up on saves and ASIs, but I don't love some of the details: I don't really like the way spellcasting classes combine, and I don't like the hard level cap at 14. I prefer actual XP splitting so that reaching level 20 is still possible, just painfully slow.

I do like your system better than 5E PHB multiclassing though. Would rather play with these than those. Would like to see more from you--you can be my DM sometime. :) Would totally play a Fighter/Mage under these rules. Or a Warlock/Moon Druid.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think I'd just prefer doubling the number of levels you gain, and someone that levels as a multiclass instead gains one into each level.

It makes it a bit more general-purpose, as a lot of tables are transitioning into a milestone-based system, or a per-session system, as overall accounting has been nearly stripped from 5e and DMs aren't really using the CR system as much as before.

So I guess the question is, are you making this for people, or just yourself?

[cutlery]

How would an Eldritch Knight/Wizard work, or for that matter a sorcerer/wizard? Do they have slots (at 14) as a 20th level caster would (or 18th, in the case of EK/Wizard) to use for upcasting?

[MaxWilson]

Thanks! If you split xp then when a single classed character caps at 20, then a multiclassed character would be level 15 (which I originally used as the cap, but thought 8th level spells was maybe too much compared to a single class since a lot of the capstones aren't that good). It didn't seem fair to me to cap a single classed character and then let a multiclassed character get up to the same power.

Although if you were going to keep playing at 20 a single classed character would get about 12 epic boons before the multiclass hit level 20. Do people think that would be fair? I haven't spent too much time analyzing epic boons.


You could have INT 30, CON 20+, DEX 20+, and the Boons of High Magic and Spell Recall for three 9th level spells a day, plus a couple more Epic Boons. I don't think the single-classed character is getting short-changed by comparison.


I'm not sure about your proposal for letting them double up their spell slots. I would think a level 20 double full caster would be pretty ridiculous. Even at level 15 vs 20 having two sets of level 15 spell slots is way better than the 5th, 6th, 7th, and 9th level slot that you get between level 15 and 20 (thinking especially of a Sorcerer/Wizard mutliclass).

I'm not sure I agree that it's better (9th level Planar Binding for example is way better than 8th level Planar Binding) but mainly this is about taste: it doesn't feel old-school to be handing out 9th level spell slots before you actually hit 18th level. Yes, yes, I know 5E starts handing them out at 17th level already, but that's a minor annoyance in comparison to handling them out at 9th/9th level, per the Multiclass Spellcaster Table. (Am I misunderstanding your system here? Edit: maybe so, see below.)

If I'm misunderstanding, and if your real system is actually that a 9th/9th caster only gets regular 9th level spell slots (up to level 5), then that certainly makes caster/caster multiclassing unattractive but I could live with that. I wouldn't refuse to play under that system, but I probably would avoid caster/caster multiclassing, which might be what you intend.


In this proposal you would have spell slots as a level 14 caster, not a level 20 caster. So the Eldritch Knight would let you know 10 extra 1st-3rd level Wizard spells. The main things you would be getting would be action surge and eldritch strike synergy (besides fighter extra attacks).

I could live with that. It would make me prefer Cavaliar/Wizard and Samurai/Wizard over Eldritch Knight/Wizard, but Eldritch Knight is not completely useless, which is probably what you intend.

[cutlery]

In this proposal you would have spell slots as a level 14 caster, not a level 20 caster. So the Eldritch Knight would let you know 10 extra 1st-3rd level Wizard spells. The main things you would be getting would be action surge and eldritch strike synergy (besides fighter extra attacks).

I expect people would just avoid Ek/Wizard in this case, as the spells known for the EK aren't the useful part when multiclassing with wizard, it's the added spell slots. That's a 5e thing, though, so I guess it makes sense.

It makes things like battlemaster/warlock look pretty interesting.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly, this sounds pretty underpowered.

Since your proficiency bonus applies to pretty much everything you do in 5e, anything that limits how fast you get it and how big it gets should be very well worth it, and I don't see losing HP and proficiency being worth a couple levels of class features (half of which don't even stack)

Then there's the delay of class features. Most martial classes are notoriously front loaded. So even something like Fighter 11/Y 9 is probably better than a Fighter/Y 14. More HP, better saves, better skills, better attack, and similar class features (and you probably got the ones you really care about sooner)

If you intended this as something for spellcasters, then this variant MC is even weaker. You know what's far stronger than a Wizard/Y14? A Wizard 17 who can cast Wish.

At lower levels the problem isn't as pronounced, but it's still pretty big. X/Y 2 is probably weaker than X 3 because level 3 is usually when you get something very significant. Either a powerful new spell level or a subclass feature.

Honestly, if this option was on the table together with regular multiclassing (ie, if I could choose which rule to use) I wouldn't give your rule a second thought.

[MaxWilson]

Then there's the delay of class features. Most martial classes are notoriously front loaded. So even something like Fighter 11/Y 9 is probably better than a Fighter/Y 14.

That's very much a better of taste. For example, I'd take Samurai/Illusionist 14/14 over Samurai 11/Illusionist 9. You get fewer ASIs and slightly lower proficiency bonus, but much better spells (including the most broken spell in the game, Simulacrum, although a DM who's proactive enough to fix multiclassing is probably proactive enough to fix Simulacrum too).


If you intended this as something for spellcasters, then this variant MC is even weaker. You know what's far stronger than a Wizard/Y14? A Wizard 17 who can cast Wish.

That seems to be on purpose. If you want to be a powerful spellcaster under these rules, you have to suffer through the pain of being a single-classed squishy spellcaster for a long time--no easy Cleric 1 dips. It feels very old-school.

[Hellpyre]

I've tried it before with split xp and regular exp tables. It has a bit of a rough patch near the end of tier two, but everything comes together fairly well (though spell slots are a bit fiddly to work out for dual caster progressions. I never worked it out to a way that felt good the whole way down.)

[heavyfuel]

That's very much a better of taste. For example, I'd take Samurai/Illusionist 14/14 over Samurai 11/Illusionist 9. You get fewer ASIs and slightly lower proficiency bonus, but much better spells (including the most broken spell in the game, Simulacrum, although a DM who's proactive enough to fix multiclassing is probably proactive enough to fix Simulacrum too).


A Simulacrum at effective level 19 (by the time your reach fighter/illusionist 13) isn't nearly as impressive as having Simulacrum 6 levels earlier (and being a single level away from the most broken subclass feature in the game) so I'm still calling this whole deal underpowered.

Saying "martial/full caster 14 is better than martial 11 / full caster 9 because you are closer to a full caster than you previously were" isn't really an argument since if you care about spells then just play a single-classed full caster, which is what my point was.

I guess more options is usually better, but I can't help but see this as a massive trap option (which isn't better)

[MaxWilson]

A Simulacrum at effective level 19 (by the time your reach fighter/illusionist 13) isn't nearly as impressive as having Simulacrum 6 levels earlier (and being a single level away from the most broken subclass feature in the game) so I'm still calling this whole deal underpowered.

Getting Simulacrum before you'd normally gain your 4th attack (if single-classed) is very relevant. And it turns out you don't miss any ASIs after all relative to the 11/9 split. You get better and more spells, Illusory Self, Illusory Reality, permanent Major Images to go along with your Malleable Illusion, and an extra Indomitable for whatever that's worth. That feels more like a Fighter/Mage than the Fighter 11/Wizard 9 does.

And most importantly, it's not as abusable as regular 5E multiclassing is, so you can offer this without opening up that. And it prevents players from having to worry about "builds" and consult the Internet to determine what levels to take in what order to avoid making a crippling mistake. Instead, you just pick your class(es) at the beginning and then stop worrying about builds and focus on play.

I like it. I get that you don't, but I like it.

[cutlery]

And it prevents players from having to worry about "builds" and consult the Internet to determine what levels to take in what order to avoid making a crippling mistake. Instead, you just pick your class(es) at the beginning and then stop worrying about builds and focus on play.



Which would be a great strength; for this or some other system that mimicked the 2e system.

[Gryndle]

I've considered this before but I haven't really looked at it in depth, but if you are going for AD&D style why not just do it that way...

-when you get xp it is divided in half (half going to each class) so when you get enough to be fighter-2/wizard-2, single class members of your party are hitting level 4. You advance slower but gain versatility.
-when you gain hp you roll for each class and average them (using the fighter/wizard example you would start with 8 HP + CON mod, at 2/2 you would roll 1d10 and 1d6 and average them, then add CON mod, and add that to your 1st level HP).
-you get full class abilities of each class. i think i would even keep full casting (spells known and slots) for each class-which might result in you being able to cast more low level spells per day but your access to higher level spells is going to come MUCH slower.
-saving throws, skills, and proficiencies- i haven't had enough caffeine yet. I think taking the most advantageous but not getting both classes full allotment would be about right

the only outlier i see off the top of my head is proficiency modifier, which i think I would keep at your character level (combined class levels)...

I have kicked around this idea before, but like I said I haven't gotten into any real detail with it.

[Eldariel]

Level 14 Paladin/Sorcerer
8 6 6 4 2 1 1 (below)
4 3 3 1
Level 14 Paladin (above)
Yikes, that is some smiting!

The point of comparison should be Pally 20 so 4/3/3/3/2. However, this isn't strictly accurate as we're talking multiclass vs. single class. This more occupies the niche of the current Sorcadin builds so the real point of comparison is perhaps Pally 6/Sorcerer 14 or 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/1. Which...well, this Sorcadin has a far larger battery of low level smites but the current Sorcadin has a 9th and an 8th level slot (admittedly not that useful for smiting) and so. Which seems fair enough; this would be the new Sorcadin, heavy on smites and class features but low on durability, HP, attack bonus and such. FWIW I'd still take Pally 2/Sorc 18 over Pally 14/Sorc 14 every single day of the week since 9th level spells are so game-changing (but losing Aura of Protection sucks).

[MaxWilson]

It seems to me that with 12 epic boons being potentially a +24 abilities up to 30 that multiclass would be better with a level limit.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't share that opinion. 9th level spells are pretty decisive, and having Epic Boons but being stuck forever at 14th level is far less attractive to me than eventually reaching 20th level, even if it takes longer and/or means forgoing epic boons. Some of the best epic boons don't even work well unless you have 9th level spell slots already.