[Ascension Games] Paths of Magic - Playtest Thread

[Seginus]

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Ascension Games is announcing our next book, Paths of Magic (https://www.ascension-games.com/blog/2020/9/25/magic-playtest), a new content expansion for Pathfinder 1st Edition! This book serves not only as a compilation of the three paths of Shadows, Iron, and Wilds, but also an expansion on all three books. Just about everything is returning from our three 1st edition products, and getting a thorough evaluation and re-balance based on the years of updates Pathfinder has seen since their initial release. We’re talking new saboteur tricks, more invoker spirits, new rune magic scripts, new spells, more technique feats: you name it, it’s getting new content!

But what’s key about today’s announcement is that we’re doing a playtest of two new additions to the Ascension Games’ roster: the cabalist, and the shaper. On top of that, the nightblade is seeing some major revisions, and will be getting its own playtest! A lot has changed since the nightblade was first released over five years ago, and it’s time that it got a fresh coat of paint.

The playtest will run for eight weeks, from September 25th - November 20th. You can check out all three documents on Google Drive below:


The Ultimate Nightblade (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bJmBxkr493XrVw6bDxSX7P0HyPUfH3EUxARBFopyAMI/edit?usp=sharing)
The Cabalist (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZjjetQeMdSjyLZDqlS6_P2APnsnyTqAbi4eEUoAxoSw/edit?usp=sharing)
The Shaper (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vLCdIEnuS6TY81jKQpDqB_E5IT2xG_xFoSnz0oIc4zQ/edit?usp=sharing)

There will also be a running update document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p2mcWN_fAO_tDLfLS0OWXBZ54mvpBpuY6p8Qh-HIztI/edit?usp=sharing) to detail any major changes that occur during the playtest. You are welcome to add comments to the documents directly, or you can share your thoughts here in this thread (or on Paizo's website (https://paizo.com/threads/rzs436x9?Ascension-Games-Paths-of-Magic-Playtest-Thread) or Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/izo7bp/ascension_games_announcing_paths_of_magic_for/)). Alternatively, if you’d rather send us feedback directly, feel free to use the contact form (https://www.ascension-games.com/contact) on the Ascension Games website.

This project has been a long time in the making, and serves as a capstone on our products for Pathfinder 1st Edition. I want to make this book a spectacular send-off to a fantastic game, and I’ll need as much help as I can get to bring Paths of Magic to the quality that you all deserve.

I hope you’re all as excited as I am for Paths of Magic!

Chris Moore,
Lead Designer

[Miss Disaster]

Oh wow. This is exciting! Paths of Shadows is my fave Pathfinder 1E 3PP book.

I'm especially stoked to see what kind of expansion you have for the Shadows section. Hopefully more of those innovative spells & feats.

***

One thing that might be interesting to do is to talk a bit about how the Illusion subschool 'Shadow' differentiates from the spell descriptors 'Shadow' and 'Darkness'. I've seen a lot of confusion over the years with all those very-similar thematic magic mechanics. Even pro devs and designer mess this up.

[StSword]

First of all, I like what I see, and I'm sorry to hear that this is the last book you folks have planned for pathfinder 1.

I know I'm not in any hurry to leave PF1.

But anyway, about the cabalist's spell ritual class feature, how about a feat or something to allow for nonstandard skill use?

For example knowledge geography covers astronomy. I could see a cabalist therefore using that geography to ask the stars in a divination ritual.

Likewise, knowledge nature covers fey, considering the fey being known for enchantment and illusions, I could see a cabalist who uses knowledge nature for those schools as their rituals call upon the power of the fey.

Stuff like that.

Although I would understand if allowing a cabalist to use non knowledge skills might be seen as potentially abusable.

[Seginus]

But anyway, about the cabalist's spell ritual class feature, how about a feat or something to allow for nonstandard skill use?

For example knowledge geography covers astronomy. I could see a cabalist therefore using that geography to ask the stars in a divination ritual.

Likewise, knowledge nature covers fey, considering the fey being known for enchantment and illusions, I could see a cabalist who uses knowledge nature for those schools as their rituals call upon the power of the fey.

Stuff like that.

Although I would understand if allowing a cabalist to use non knowledge skills might be seen as potentially abusable.

I don't think it'd really be open to exploitation, but I also don't think a feat would really capture that, since there's so many possible themes you could do for alternative skills.

That being said, archetypes that switch around skills are certainly on the table. There's already a planned divine archetype that uses Know (religion) for all of its rituals.

[Miss Disaster]

Hey Seginus,

On the Ultimate Nightblade document .... Umbral Assistant spell (which I love!) ... the quoted sentence below could probably use some clarification:

"It can perform aid another for others’ skill checks; when doing so, it has a bonus to any skill equal to half your caster level + your Charisma modifier, though it cannot perform skill checks alone unless the DC is 15 or less. It cannot perform or aid another on any Intelligence-based skill checks, regardless of DC."

It seems like you have a sentence that is merging together 2 different-yet-related game mechanic effects. That being an Aid Another skill bonus mechanic ... plus an "alone" skill check mechanic.

Perhaps separate the distinctions and state them clearer in effect?

***

EDIT: Also, Umbral Assistant is listed as a [Shadowmorph] descriptor spell. Shouldn't that make the caster's personal shadow the Target? As it is, the spell only has an Effect entry. Yet the text seems to indicate the spell targets the caster's personal shadow.

[Seginus]

On the Ultimate Nightblade document .... Umbral Assistant spell (which I love!) ... the quoted sentence below could probably use some clarification:

"It can perform aid another for others’ skill checks; when doing so, it has a bonus to any skill equal to half your caster level + your Charisma modifier, though it cannot perform skill checks alone unless the DC is 15 or less. It cannot perform or aid another on any Intelligence-based skill checks, regardless of DC."

It seems like you have a sentence that is merging together 2 different-yet-related game mechanic effects. That being an Aid Another skill bonus mechanic ... plus an "alone" skill check mechanic.

Perhaps separate the distinctions and state them clearer in effect?

Yeah, that text got messed up somewhere along the line. How's this sound:


The assistant can lift or carry objects, open doors, or perform simple tasks as you direct it, similar to an unseen servant. It has a skill bonus to all non-Intelligence skills equal to your Charisma modifier + 1 per three caster levels (max +5), but it can only perform skill checks alone if the DC is 15 or less. It can also perform aid another to help other creatures with their Skill checks. It cannot attempt any Intelligence-based skill checks, whether alone or aiding another.

Given that it also can't speak, I might have to include Charisma-based skills, too. Though I suppose it could intimidate for you...



EDIT: Also, Umbral Assistant is listed as a [Shadowmorph] descriptor spell. Shouldn't that make the caster's personal shadow the Target? As it is, the spell only has an Effect entry. Yet the text seems to indicate the spell targets the caster's personal shadow.

I'm mulling over the best way to set up the target/effect lines. As you mention, it should target yourself, given it's a shadowmorph, but it also creates a moving object (that would typically include an Effect).

[Miss Disaster]

That's much clearer, Chris. I hear ya about the "alone" skill selection criteria. That's tough to do for that portion of the spell while keeping the text tight & succinct. Perhaps mentioning exactly what you said ... that being that any skill check involving speaking cannot be performed. That way if there's edge cases where, say, a Wisdom skill use that requires talking is being considered - it'll nix it ASAP.

***

Poking around similar 3.X spell descriptions that kinda/sorta do the Target-plus-Effect thing ... I found Lesser Shadow Tentacle from Lords of Darkness. Looks like that spell has a Target entry, but no Effect entry.

Hope that helps!

[Seginus]

We're one month into the Paths of Magic playtest, and could use some more feedback! Every bit of info helps, even if all you have to say is "Looks great!". The playtest has also had a few minor revisions, bringing it to v1.1. This primarily consisted of typo and minor error fixes. The nightblade's umbral spells have also been updated to more logically use the new shadowmorph descriptor. You can see the revisions here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p2mcWN_fAO_tDLfLS0OWXBZ54mvpBpuY6p8Qh-HIztI/edit?usp=sharing).

In the meantime, you can check out the first of our development updates for Paths of Magic, starting with the saboteur! You can check it out on the Ascension Games blog (https://www.ascension-games.com/blog/paths-of-magic-update-1).

[Eldaran]

Really like the Shaper, the void is a very neat mechanic. The Cabalist seems interesting, I have a bit more concern about how they function in actual play, since it seems they're trying to do a lot of different things at once.

[Volfogg]

Extremely excited about your new book! The other Path of ... tomes were excellent and are a permanent fixture of my games. Currently still reading through the play-test documents and the only thing that's a bit off, at least for me, and is, honestly a minor nitpick, is the name of the Shaper. :( Might it be a bit more thematic to go with Void Knight, Null Knight, Avatar of Annihilation, Champion/Scion/Herald of Desolation or somesuchthing. Also, the Cabalist I believe is one such class that deserves a feat with which they can poach a very small assortment of spells from another casting tradition. Again, just a random thought. Hope my nonsensical ramblings are helpful in some way.
Cheers

[Seginus]

Really like the Shaper, the void is a very neat mechanic. The Cabalist seems interesting, I have a bit more concern about how they function in actual play, since it seems they're trying to do a lot of different things at once.

It has several different build concepts available, for sure, but I'm hoping that they're all viable. So far in internal tests they've been pretty consistent, though right now they feel a bit too tanky in the mid-levels. The player in my test group took Welcome the Pain and Bizarre Anatomy insights, and DR 5/slashing plus 8 temp HP every other turn is a bit much for a class that isn't supposed to "tank" like that. So I'm preparing to make some changes by the end of the week.


Extremely excited about your new book! The other Path of ... tomes were excellent and are a permanent fixture of my games. Currently still reading through the play-test documents and the only thing that's a bit off, at least for me, and is, honestly a minor nitpick, is the name of the Shaper. :( Might it be a bit more thematic to go with Void Knight, Null Knight, Avatar of Annihilation, Champion/Scion/Herald of Desolation or somesuchthing. Also, the Cabalist I believe is one such class that deserves a feat with which they can poach a very small assortment of spells from another casting tradition. Again, just a random thought. Hope my nonsensical ramblings are helpful in some way.
Cheers

I always try to make the class names a single, descriptive word (nightblade is a bit of a stretch, I suppose, but it's a common enough fantasy name). I'm definitely not using Void Knight, given this class was in no small part directly inspired by the Void Knight class from the MMO Rift, but things like Scion of Desolation could make a good archetype name.

I want to avoid giving Cabalist any spells from a different list, due to the mechanics of ritual magic. It's already a strong enough feature as-is and being able to pick up any spell of 6th level or lower to use with that feature will undoubtedly open the way for some cheesy builds.

[Seginus]

The Paths of Magic playtest has about two weeks left, and has just received a final update! This update includes big changes to some core features of the classes, including the cabalist's ritual magic and the shaper's void, along with some updates to the new Umbral Host nightblade path.

You can see the revisions here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p2mcWN_fAO_tDLfLS0OWXBZ54mvpBpuY6p8Qh-HIztI/edit?usp=sharing).

[Mehangel]

The Nightblade was a favorite class of one of my players before we made the switch to Spheres of Power. I have to say that I had hoped that there would be an official spherecasting nightblade path or archetype.

[Seginus]

The Nightblade was a favorite class of one of my players before we made the switch to Spheres of Power. I have to say that I had hoped that there would be an official spherecasting nightblade path or archetype.

I think Spheres is pretty neat, but I want Paths of Magic to function as a stand-alone book. There's too many other good 3PP systems for me to start doing crossover products.

[meemaas]

The Nightblade was a favorite class of one of my players before we made the switch to Spheres of Power. I have to say that I had hoped that there would be an official spherecasting nightblade path or archetype.

I had a player who asked me for that once. Made it a midcaster with full casting in the Dark Sphere and he greatly enjoyed it. Nothing fancy, but it works.

[Seginus]

After a solid eight weeks of testing, the Paths of Magic playtest is finally over! Well, sort of. While this is the official “end” of the playtest, all of the documents will remain publicly available on Google Drive, and the discussion thread here will remain open for any feedback you'd like to share.

Of course, this is only the beginning for Paths of Magic. There’s still quite a bit to be done (early 2021 release, ideally), and we’ll be giving out updates along the way! Every two weeks or so we’ll be making progress updates, developer musings, and more on the Ascension Games’ blog (https://www.ascension-games.com/blog). If you want to keep up with the development progress, you can also follow us on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/ascensiongames) or Twitter (https://twitter.com/CM_Ascension) to see updates as we post them.

Thank you to everyone that participated in the playtest; your feedback has been a great help. Until next time!

Chris Moore
Lead Designer