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DarthOccultarus
2020-09-26, 07:09 AM
A friend of mine is a bit of a Sidious fan, and would like to replicate him in a campaign he will be playing in. He asked if I had some tips. Beyond Force Lightning (so that means maybe a couple levels in Warlock for Eldritch Blast and Witch Bolt), I wasn't sure. I don't suppose if you guys could help out?

Hellpyre
2020-09-26, 06:29 PM
Are you looking for build advice for D&D 5e? If you are, I'm sure many of us would be willing to help, but you should ask a mod to move this to the appropriate sub-forum. This is the parent board - for non-system-specific or system-agnostic discussion, generally.

DarthOccultarus
2020-09-27, 07:50 AM
Are you looking for build advice for D&D 5e? If you are, I'm sure many of us would be willing to help, but you should ask a mod to move this to the appropriate sub-forum. This is the parent board - for non-system-specific or system-agnostic discussion, generally.

How do I do that?

Batcathat
2020-09-27, 08:05 AM
How do I do that?

I believe the easiest way is to report your own post (the little triangle in the bottom left corner) and ask it to be moved.

zinycor
2020-09-27, 10:31 AM
Storm sorcerer. Take elemental adept as a feat at some point. Consider taking 2 levels into tempest cleric for the channel divinity.

Ask your GM to buff witch bolt... it kinda sucks.

Edit: Also take deception as one of your skills, and maybe caligraphy and forgery for tools? Palps is very deceitful after all.

Composer99
2020-09-27, 11:50 AM
Sidious' strengths are his intelligence, his ability to get people to do what he wants, and his foresight. Thanks to Revenge of the Sith, he's also a kick-ass warrior in his own right.

So, I think you're looking at a hexblade warlock, with two levels of diviner at some point for Portent. The flavour of hexblade actually works pretty well IMO, if you treat "the dark side of the Force" as a patron. Pact of the Blade gets you your "lightsabre".

I'd suggest going with variant human. Noble background seems pretty much an automatic pick for a feature that really works with his public persona as well as Persuasion. You'll want all the "face" skills and History. Pick up Investigation with the racial bonus skill. For the variant human feat, I'd suggest either Skilled for Arcana, Nature, and Religion, or Magic Initiate: Cleric, mostly for the guidance cantrip. Dunno how folks think of bane, but it strikes me as right up Palpatine's alley.

If your friend doesn't care for the prequel films and isn't interested in emulating Sidious' martial capabilities, you could go straight diviner. Probably need to take Skilled feat to get all the "face" skills.

Edit to add: If you like warlock but, again, don't feel the need to emphasise the martial capabilities seen in Revenge of the Sith, you could go Pact of the Tome instead. Pact of the Chain might be a stretch, but it could be a way to represent Sidious' tendency to use webs of spies and agents to stay informed and one step ahead of his enemies in the game.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2020-09-27, 12:12 PM
Witch Bolt is really bad, it needs house rules to ever be worth picking.

Hexblade is an obvious choice, but I'd focus primarily on Storm Sorcerer as others suggested.

Composer99
2020-09-27, 12:26 PM
Witch Bolt is really bad, it needs house rules to ever be worth picking.

Hexblade is an obvious choice, but I'd focus primarily on Storm Sorcerer as others suggested.

I just don't see Storm Sorcerer. Force Lightning is a tool Palpatine uses, rather than a central part of his identity the way lightning is to a storm sorcerer.

zinycor
2020-09-27, 12:30 PM
I just don't see Storm Sorcerer. Force Lightning is a tool Palpatine uses, rather than a central part of his identity the way lightning is to a storm sorcerer.

I think lightning is way more important to a Palps build than his ability with a lightsaber.

But am by no means an expert, maybe on the expanded universe Palps is the best duelist on the world. Am just going by the feel in the movies.

Composer99
2020-09-27, 12:44 PM
I think lightning is way more important to a Palps build than his ability with a lightsaber.

But am by no means an expert, maybe on the expanded universe Palps is the best duelist on the world. Am just going by the feel in the movies.

I mean, personally speaking I'd just as soon ignore Revenge of the Sith... but in that movie, he single-handedly slays three Jedi masters and stands up to Mace Windu for a spell, and later on duels with Yoda. I'm not familiar with his appearances in other media, either before or after the Disney lore reboot, so I can't speak to any of that.

But mostly I'm arguing that Palpatine's character, and his usual ways of getting things done, are a bad fit for storm sorcerer. For instance, he likes using Force Lightning because it inflicts incredible pain on his victims: the fact that it's lightning is kind of beside the point. If it were Force Acid, Force Thousands of Tiny Stabbing Needles, or Force Conjure Starving Rats, it'd be all the same to him, at least as I perceive his character. That's not how a storm sorcerer rolls.

zinycor
2020-09-27, 12:48 PM
I mean, personally speaking I'd just as soon ignore Revenge of the Sith... but in that movie, he single-handedly slays three Jedi masters and stands up to Mace Windu for a spell, and later on duels with Yoda. I'm not familiar with his appearances in other media, either before or after the Disney lore reboot, so I can't speak to any of that.

But mostly I'm arguing that Palpatine's character, and his usual ways of getting things done, are a bad fit for storm sorcerer. For instance, he likes using Force Lightning because it inflicts incredible pain on his victims: the fact that it's lightning is kind of beside the point. If it were Force Acid, Force Thousands of Tiny Stabbing Needles, or Force Conjure Starving Rats, it'd be all the same to him, at least as I perceive his character. That's not how a storm sorcerer rolls.

I believe the fact that it is lightning and not acid or needles matters. And if he chooses sorcerer he will have a ton of cha, which helps with all the deceiving.

Anxe
2020-09-27, 02:15 PM
Diviner isn't necessary. Palpatine outsourced the prophecy work to his underlings.

https://villains.fandom.com/wiki/Kadann

Xuc Xac
2020-09-27, 08:52 PM
Trying to build Sidious around lightning magic is like trying to make Han Solo a sniper because he had that cool gun. It's a cool detail but it's not a key component of the character. Han Solo is a charming smuggler and supreme pilot who happens to have a cool pistol. Darth Sidious is a deceitful schemer who has plans within plans within plans and he also has a laser sword and force lightning. If he doesn't use the laser sword or the lightning, he's still recognizable as Sidious for his scheming. If you take away the scheming, he's more like Storm from the X-Men.

zinycor
2020-09-27, 11:07 PM
Trying to build Sidious around lightning magic is like trying to make Han Solo a sniper because he had that cool gun. It's a cool detail but it's not a key component of the character. Han Solo is a charming smuggler and supreme pilot who happens to have a cool pistol. Darth Sidious is a deceitful schemer who has plans within plans within plans and he also has a laser sword and force lightning. If he doesn't use the laser sword or the lightning, he's still recognizable as Sidious for his scheming. If you take away the scheming, he's more like Storm from the X-Men.

Sure, but if you made sidious a rogue or a bard I wouldn't buy it.

Sorcerer and warlocks up their charisma, so they get to have great deception and persuasion. They also allow for cool powers.

Mechalich
2020-09-27, 11:14 PM
Sure, but if you made sidious a rogue or a bard I wouldn't buy it.

Sorcerer and warlocks up their charisma, so they get to have great deception and persuasion. They also allow for cool powers.

The Force doesn't match up well to spellcasting, even in the case of the most sorcerer-like Sith. A better general match is actually psionics. Palpatine works well as a Wilder, perhaps with Thrallherd as a PrC.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2020-09-27, 11:18 PM
He's honestly an NPC villain with plot powers. You can't really build him as a character and be able to make everyone happy with how it turned out. Given how powerful his lightning abilities are, you need to make him a primary spellcaster to be able to keep that scaling with his level.

zinycor
2020-09-28, 12:39 PM
Palpatine works well as a Wilder, perhaps with Thrallherd as a PrC.

No idea what most of those words mean xD

icefractal
2020-09-28, 02:35 PM
Wilder = Psychic who can gain extra power at the cost of possible backlash. Casting based on force of personality. Seems like a decent fit for "dark side of the force".

Thrallherd - PrC about being a psychic puppet master. Gets an improved (and creepy) form of Leadership and some mind control abilities. Usually evil.

Both 3.5e

zinycor
2020-09-28, 03:29 PM
Wilder = Psychic who can gain extra power at the cost of possible backlash. Casting based on force of personality. Seems like a decent fit for "dark side of the force".

Thrallherd - PrC about being a psychic puppet master. Gets an improved (and creepy) form of Leadership and some mind control abilities. Usually evil.

Both 3.5e

Thanks! I barely played 3.5 so these things scape me.

DarthOccultarus
2020-10-05, 05:53 AM
The Force doesn't match up well to spellcasting, even in the case of the most sorcerer-like Sith. A better general match is actually psionics. Palpatine works well as a Wilder, perhaps with Thrallherd as a PrC.

I looked at the Wilder and Thrallherd classes, and whilst they seem to have the flavor of the Dark Side, there is an absence of anything particularly lightning-ish. That is his main power, given how much he seems to love it (punishes Vader with it, kills rebels with it, attempts to destroy Luke and later a Rebel fleet with it, what he used to end the fight between him and Yoda). I get he has other tricks, but he appears to specialize in Force Lightning.

Mechalich
2020-10-05, 10:51 PM
I looked at the Wilder and Thrallherd classes, and whilst they seem to have the flavor of the Dark Side, there is an absence of anything particularly lightning-ish. That is his main power, given how much he seems to love it (punishes Vader with it, kills rebels with it, attempts to destroy Luke and later a Rebel fleet with it, what he used to end the fight between him and Yoda). I get he has other tricks, but he appears to specialize in Force Lightning.

He really doesn't specialize in Force Lightning though. He uses it a lot less than just fighting with his lightsaber like any other Sith. It's mostly a 'gotcha' move than he pulls out for maximum impact and/or to really indulge his inner sadist.

In any case, the Psionic 'Energy' powers approximate Force Lightning just fine, you just have to say Palpatine prefers to choose 'electricity' over any of the other elements. Consider the description for Energy Wave: "Upon manifesting this power, you choose cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. You create a flood of energy of the chosen type out of unstable ectoplasm that deals 13d6 points of damage to each creature and object in the area. This power originates at your hand and extends outward in a cone." That matches Force Lightning perfectly.

Chijinda
2020-10-06, 04:51 AM
He really doesn't specialize in Force Lightning though. He uses it a lot less than just fighting with his lightsaber like any other Sith. It's mostly a 'gotcha' move than he pulls out for maximum impact and/or to really indulge his inner sadist.



Honestly, Sidious seems to use Force Lightning MORE than his lightsaber, whether we go by films, Legends or EU.

Films, he's used Force Lightning as his opener and closer with his fight with Yoda, his finisher against Mace, his first resort against Luke, his last ditch attack on Vader and his mainstay attack against Rey. He's only resorted to lightsaber combat twice in the films, and the second time, it was only because his Force Lightning opener didn't actually put Yoda completely down.

Legends, while Sidious definitely used both, he was noted that he only used the lightsaber to mock the Jedi, and only for that purpose-- he largely believed that he had no need of a lightsaber and preferred using the Force. He was also explicitly called out in Legends as the greatest master of Force Lightning in the history of the Sith, so it's still his mainstay in Legends.

And even in the Canon EU while Sidious has *more* respect for lightsaber combat than his old Legends counterpart, he still uses the Force at least as much as he uses his lightsaber (EU Sidious has only pulled his lightsaber MAYBE three additional times from the films, and he's used Force Lightning a lot more than that).

I'd definitely say that Force Lightning is more core to Sidious's "combative" identity than a lightsaber is, so if you're aiming to make a Sidious expy, you want the Force Lightning first, lightsaber swinging second. Which does still mean something like a Hexblade is probably the best route, but a Sorcadin could also work to represent Sidious.

Mechalich
2020-10-06, 07:27 AM
Honestly, Sidious seems to use Force Lightning MORE than his lightsaber, whether we go by films, Legends or EU.

Films, he's used Force Lightning as his opener and closer with his fight with Yoda, his finisher against Mace, his first resort against Luke, his last ditch attack on Vader and his mainstay attack against Rey. He's only resorted to lightsaber combat twice in the films, and the second time, it was only because his Force Lightning opener didn't actually put Yoda completely down.

Legends, while Sidious definitely used both, he was noted that he only used the lightsaber to mock the Jedi, and only for that purpose-- he largely believed that he had no need of a lightsaber and preferred using the Force. He was also explicitly called out in Legends as the greatest master of Force Lightning in the history of the Sith, so it's still his mainstay in Legends.

And even in the Canon EU while Sidious has *more* respect for lightsaber combat than his old Legends counterpart, he still uses the Force at least as much as he uses his lightsaber (EU Sidious has only pulled his lightsaber MAYBE three additional times from the films, and he's used Force Lightning a lot more than that).

I'd definitely say that Force Lightning is more core to Sidious's "combative" identity than a lightsaber is, so if you're aiming to make a Sidious expy, you want the Force Lightning first, lightsaber swinging second. Which does still mean something like a Hexblade is probably the best route, but a Sorcadin could also work to represent Sidious.

Here's the thing, an actual Force Lightning specialist in Star Wars looks like the Lightning Sor from SWTOR or Galen Marek with Lightning all the way upgraded in Force Unleashed. Heck, even maxed force lightning in Jedi Academy is more impressive than Sidious' uses of Force Lightning.

Also important, a Darth Sidious build needs to be built around his pre-Emperor capabilities, since you're not playing a PC who's the Emperor of the galaxy. Sidious uses lightning (and other Force Powers like Force Storm) more later in life and after being resurrected (something that somehow happened in both versions of canon, sigh). It's additionally worth noting that Sidious often relied on lightning when he did not have a lightsaber available, for a variety of reasons. Most of the 'fights' he gets into in either version of canon involve him not having a full chance to prepare. The big exception is his fight versus Maul and Savage Opress in TCW - a fight which Sidious actually dual-wields lightsabers and doesn't use lightning at all during the fight. He uses Push and Pull in that fight, so Force abilities are integrated with his fighting style. It's only after the fight is over and Maul is helpless that he blasts him with lightning.

Ultimately basic Force Lightning simply isn't that effective as a combat weapon. It's easily blocked or even outright resisted. It works well as a means of intimidation or torment, but it doesn't integrate well with combat, in part because to use it properly you have to drop your weapon to do it. That's why game characters who rely on Force Lightning get all kinds of upgraded variants and weird modifications to turn it into an effective combat style.

GloatingSwine
2020-10-06, 07:43 AM
He really doesn't specialize in Force Lightning though. He uses it a lot less than just fighting with his lightsaber like any other Sith. It's mostly a 'gotcha' move than he pulls out for maximum impact and/or to really indulge his inner sadist.


He uses all of those things less than he uses his voice.

Darth Sidious was the man who provided the tinder and spark and ran both sides of a galactic civil war that shattered two completely different power structures, the Republic and the Jedi, with nothing more than honeyed words and political promises.

The primary thing you'd need to do when building him as a character is build for persuasion, and the campaign would need to let him move in and move up in the highest circles of power available.

Mechalich
2020-10-06, 06:59 PM
He uses all of those things less than he uses his voice.

Darth Sidious was the man who provided the tinder and spark and ran both sides of a galactic civil war that shattered two completely different power structures, the Republic and the Jedi, with nothing more than honeyed words and political promises.

The primary thing you'd need to do when building him as a character is build for persuasion, and the campaign would need to let him move in and move up in the highest circles of power available.

Well, yeah. Charisma, persuasiveness, mental manipulation, and divination are the principle components of his character. In terms of combat he prefers to have a chosen minion fight for him and only fights himself when something has gone wrong in some way.

Wilder feels appropriate primarily because it's a charisma-based class with psionic powers, but there are several ancillary benefits. It's got 3/4ths BAB, so you can fight if necessary, augmented by the Surging Euphoria ability to provide temporary combat bonuses. The Volatile Mind ability that makes it harder to use telepathy on a Wilder fits Sidious perfectly considering his ability to hide his Force abilities from the Jedi. Thrallherd makes sense because a minion character bound to his will - a Sith Apprentice, if you will, is an essential part of Sidious' nature throughout his career, even though the identity of the Thrall changes over time from Maul to Dooku to Vader.

zinycor
2020-10-07, 11:06 AM
All of those things are irrelevant. The OP wants the build to be about the lightning side of Sidious. As for any other aspects, I believe a high charisma should be able to cover it.

Tvtyrant
2020-10-07, 04:48 PM
A friend of mine is a bit of a Sidious fan, and would like to replicate him in a campaign he will be playing in. He asked if I had some tips. Beyond Force Lightning (so that means maybe a couple levels in Warlock for Eldritch Blast and Witch Bolt), I wasn't sure. I don't suppose if you guys could help out?

For 5E Storm Sorcerer with a lot of ranks in persuasion and some mind control and precog magic seems accurate. The matching robes are just a bonus.

Lord Haart
2020-10-09, 05:43 AM
So, it's yet again a smart, perceptive, charismatic character in possession of a wide array of supernatural powers (such as mastery over elements, mind influence, self-enhancement, self-healing and prophetic visions), yet also a great physical combatant with no obvious deficiency of power, agility or endurance? A character capable of effective fighting both in armour and without one? One that is generally capable of going into trouble alone, rather than needing a party to cover obvious and glaring deficiencies?

Thank gods for the Cleric, or we'd never be able to fit all of that together.

In all seriousness, it's a long-standing problem that media heroes/villains tend to be powerful and versatile, with a suit of abilities custom-tailored for them — no evil overlord or noble protector of nature ever had to jump through hoops just to fit "wearing an ominous spiked plate" and "turning into a snake" into a single build.

D&D characters, on the other hand, tend to be narrowly specialised, forced to choose abilities from pre-set bundles (which, to make it worse, are on occasion mutually exclusive — such as "arcane magic" and healing, or nature magic and metal armor), and with many signature ones soft-locked behind a level gate (if you want to play an enchantress who turns her enemies into stone statues, but don't have the privilege of starting at level 11, Flesh to Stone might as well not exist for you, better think of a suitable refluff).

So it often boils down to finding a class, or a multiclass, that covers the most bases without having obstructive inbuilt restrictions. Historically, in every edition since 3.0 that happens to be the Cleric. (In ADnD, ironically, it's one of the least versatile instead, because of the "only blunt weapons" restriction which is separate from proficiencies and can't be circumvented by multiclassing. That said, ADnD has the Fighter-Mage-Thief, the Ranger-Mage, the Ranger-Druid and the Fighter-Mage-Psionicist instead, and actually has the least problem with playing a generalist overall.) There are other, edition-specific answers to "I want to do this and this and this" (several non-core classes including Psychic Warrior and Factotum and lots of prestige classes in 3.5; the Warlock, the Bard, and the hybrid classes in 4e; and the Bard, the Hexblade, the Divine Soul and the UA Mystic in 5e), but Cleric just happens to be the mainstay for playing anything from Darth Vader to Diablo II Amazon to a Space Marine.

(As has been said lots of times by lots of people by now, D&D is NOT, despite all its claims, good at emulating generic fantasy. It's good at emulating a very specific, recursively D&D-based brand of fantasy.)


That said, Darth Sidious is actually shown in a limited enough way that he can be recreated better by a different class. Most importantly: while he presumably CAN fight well in armour, he is not SHOWN to do so, so a build that isn't able to wear armour won't be unfaithful to how Darth Sidious is portrayed. Likewise, as a student of Darth Plagueis, Sidious is probably able to heal, but we don't have to include actual healing abilities in the build, since it won't feel wrong if the build won't be able to.


So my answer would be:

In 3.5: Wilder is a good fit indeed, as is Battle Sorcerer or a Cloistered Cleric (with more or less -zilla). The fanciest way, though, would be an Archivist/Swordsage (or, again, Cloistered Cleric/Swordsage if you dislike spellbooks), mainly staying in Archivist for all of the UNLIMITED POWER but dipping Swordsage now and then to reap the benefits on maneuvers.


In 4e: Darth Sidious definitely feels like a Controller. A Wizard or a Mage leaning Enchantment goes well with Int/Cha primary stats, can enter Wizard of Spiral Tower or some other melee-leaning PP to gain instant but limited-usage melee firepower (which i feel like the best way to convey Sidious' usage of melee combat: competent and powerful, but used sparingly rather than at-will), can multiclass Swordmage for more of the same effect (+Swordbond), and many of the "use Arcana check for skill X" powers the Wizard/Mage gets are identical to Saga Edition's "use Use the Force checks for skill X" way of using the Force for stealth/piloting/convincing people etc.

A Warlock (with Eldritch Strike) might feel like it fits even better in flavour, but it lacks Lightning powers, and its curse/boon mechanics feel too fiddly for Darth Sidious to bother with. A Sorcerer/Warlock hybrid can work great, though.

Invoker is hard control and punishment, and has lightning in spades, but might be a bit too armored, and it's harder to turn into a whirling melee slicemincer for a scene. You can hybrid it with Avenger to great effect, but is that really necessary when Mage-multiclass-Swordmage captures the feel well enough already?

Of course, if you want to focus on his melee capabilities first, 4e, more than any other edition, provides a bounty of ways to fight in melee using mainly Int, Wis, Cha or Dex. In particular, while Avenger is usually portrayed as something out of Assassin's Creed (despite its lack of usual fitness), its stat priorities (Wisdom to fight and either Intelligence or Dex for riders and evasion, with something like 10 str/8 dex/10 con/20 wis/18 int/13 cha being a great stat array that in no way conveys "a fit young man able to do parkour and fight with a zweihander") also fit Gandalf-ish/Palpatine-ish "old, unassuming, and hell of a skilled" image perfectly. Still, no matter how skilled Palpatine actually was with a saber, fellow players probably won't remember that prowess as his primary trait.


Likewise, in 5e i would go with a Bladesinger. It feels like it fits the best, with all of the POWER of the WIzard, enough lightning to go around, and the Bladesong as a "for my next trick, i feel like eviscerating people" button. Both Warlock and Sorcerer, while Cha-based, feel too narrow in their spell list, though if you can cherry-pick enough to work with, sure, go with it.

A psychic blades bard (don't remember what the subclass is called) and a Mystic are also good options that can be easily tailored to your needs.


In Dungeon World, a Bard that multiclass-poached the Wizard's spellcasting (you dirty powergamer, you), or one of many more or less fitting homebrew classes.


In Dungeons the Dragoning 40k 7th Edition (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?609813-Let-s-Read-Dungeons-the-Dragoning-40-000-7th-ed-v1-6)… Now that would be interesting. :) Darth Sidious would certainly try to stay as far away from Warp effects as he can (or be a chosen of Tzeench so it becomes someone else's problem, of course, but that doesn't feel exactly right, even though Tzeench would wholeheartedly support). And while Atlantean exaltation feels tempting, i'd say Paragon is actually the best fit: has strived all his life to achieve excellence in all he does, got where he is mostly on his own without needing any help, "has a dominating presence, a pressure that gives them an edge against everyone else", does crazy stunts instead of boring old fighting… Start as an apprentice-Magic User to get Tested (Sith Apprentice, it fits) and access to most magic schools in Free Study, then go hard on the Bard track with gives you most of what you need: magic, sword schools (well, Diamond Mind; White Raven doesn't sound in-character), lots of social power. Possibly dip Monk or Spellsword tracks at some point if you don't mind the experience. (Or just start with the Spellsword instead of the Magic-User, it gets Tested too.) Stick to fettered casting as much as possible. Be subtle, be careful, be awesome.