Level 4 Bladesinger feat choice: Tough or Res (CON)?

[Ir0ns0ul]

Hi friends, really really long time lurker, but this is my first post. I would like to say that the knowledge and the content discussed in this forum are a true gem to the D&D community.

So I’m in a big conundrum: I got level 4 with my High-Elf Wizard (Bladesinger) and need to decide how to move forward. Despiste the squishiness, my Bladesinger is a dedicated melee frontliner, going side-by-side with the Barbarian and Paladin.

My question is: should I invest in Tough to put me almost on pair with martials HP or go all-in with Resilient (CON)?

Current relevant rolled stats are DEX 18, INT 16, CON 15.

My usual setup is False Life + Shadow Blade. For tough combats, I regularly increment that with Mage Armor and/or Mirror Image. Always saving some level 1 slots for Shield.

Thanks very much!

[cutlery]

Normally, Neither. Elven accuracy for the shadow blade, and cast mirror image instead of false life. Transition to blink at level 5 (or use both when it feels like a big combat.)

Your AC should be 19 during bladesong (in light armor; 20 if you use mage armor), and you ought to have some slots set aside for shield. You have some fancy ways to avoid being hit, so use those rather than trying to stuff yourself with hitpoints.

However, with an odd con score, res:con.

Still, I'd suggest opening with defensive spells other than false life.

[Unoriginal]

Hi friends, really really long time lurker, but this is my first post. I would like to say that the knowledge and the content discussed in this forum are a true gem to the D&D community.

So I’m in a big conundrum: I got level 4 with my High-Elf Wizard (Bladesinger) and need to decide how to move forward. Despiste the squishiness, my Bladesinger is a dedicated melee frontliner, going side-by-side with the Barbarian and Paladin.

My question is: should I invest in Tough to put me almost on pair with martials HP or go all-in with Resilient (CON)?

Current relevant rolled stats are DEX 18, INT 16, CON 15.

My usual setup is False Life + Shadow Blade. For tough combats, I regularly increment that with Mage Armor and/or Mirror Image. Always saving some level 1 slots for Shield.

Thanks very much!

Between the two of them? Getting +1 in CON from Resilient will give you more HPs anyway, and Res (CON) helps maintaing Concentration spells, including Shadow Blade. So overall Resilient is better for your Bladesinger than Tough, if you've set your choice on either of those.

Question: are you planning on going DEX 20 at the next AsI?

[Frogreaver]

Out of those 2 options and an odd con, res (Con).

There are other options potentially just as good.

dex grants better damage and ac
int grants better ac and con saves

If you want to be in melee most of the time you'll be using mirror image and shield alot.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Normally, Neither. Elven accuracy for the shadow blade, and cast mirror image instead of false life. Transition to blink at level 5 (or use both when it feels like a big combat.)

Your AC should be 19 during bladesong (in light armor; 20 if you use mage armor), and you ought to have some slots set aside for shield. You have some fancy ways to avoid being hit, so use those rather than trying to stuff yourself with hitpoints.

However, with an odd con score, res:con.

Still, I'd suggest opening with defensive spells other than false life.

Thanks very much for the prompt response. I got your point to somehow focus on AC, but sometimes my DM throws some AoE and despiste with my good DEX, I ended getting hurt a lot even when I pass and take only half-damage.


Between the two of them? Getting +1 in CON from Resilient will give you more HPs anyway, and Res (CON) helps maintaing Concentration spells, including Shadow Blade. So overall Resilient is better for your Bladesinger than Tough, if you've set your choice on either of those.

Question: are you planning on going DEX 20 at the next AsI?

I know that Tough feat is overall considered subpar, but my rational behind that was the 39 HP I would get over 34 by rounding my CON to 16. I know CON saves are super important, especially Concentration, but Bladesong can help me a little bit with this.

Yes, I will definitely get DEX 20 on 8 (or perhaps Warcaster to make Concentration checks almost flawless?)


Out of those 2 options and an odd con, res (Con).

There are other options potentially just as good.

dex grants better damage and ac
int grants better ac and con saves

If you want to be in melee most of the time you'll be using mirror image and shield alot.

Sometimes I feel that the super good AC provided by the Bladesinger features are somehow wasted with Mirror Image. But I don’t know if it’s just a wrong perception.

[ThatoneGuy84]

3 thoughts.
1 - depends on how might magic your campaign is.

Resiliant Con is great, especially if it puts you up a notch to an additional +1 Modifier, gives you have the value of taking tough, but superior Con saves which matters for concentration.

Warcaster - to punish with BB for oppertunity attacks, will give advantage on con saves aswell, but wont help your HP meter at all. (But who cares)

If you campaign is high magic, then I would keep my DeX 18 and live without 20, utilizing magic gear to supplement that +1 dmg and +1 AC at least at 8 and take something else you value more useful.

My blade singer (last campaign I played)
Only ran 16 Dex, I utalized Gauntlets of oger power till late game when a belt of giant str was availible.
Maxed Int and utalized Str modifier for attacking, rather then Dex, allowed me to free up 2 total ASI for feats which I'd rather have taken then for + A/C
But this ofc is game dependant on you dm/magic level ect.

18 Dex is def doable on the char all the way to 20, but I would probably take it at 12 if it was me, earily game a +4 is plenty.

Edit, I just re-read and realized you are walking around with 16 Int.

Take Res Con +1/have con saves to keep up Shadow blade.
8 take +2 Int
12 + 2int

Late game you will appreciate the Maxed int more then DeX

[Eldariel]

I definitely recommend Res: Con. Easier Concentration, bonus to probably the most common save and one that has potentially rather ruinous effects when failed coupled with extra HP and such is overall pretty nice. Bladesinger specifically needs it less than other varieties of Wizard but I generally do still pick it up simply because being good in Constitution saves is just good for survivability (many spells target the save and deal AOE damage, which you ideally do want to halve and then halve again as a Wizard with fairly low base HP).

[Unoriginal]

I know that Tough feat is overall considered subpar

I don't consider it subpar, I just think that the other option would be better in your case specifically. If you had 14 CON I would consider Resilient to be much less attractive for you.

[LudicSavant]

Res(Con) that bumps an odd Constitution stat is almost always gonna be better than Tough, IMO. Con will grant you +1 hp/level, another +1 hp/level on hit dice healing, and a good-sized bonus to arguably the best save in the game.

As for whether I'd take that over just boosting Int or something... well that's another question.


Sometimes I feel that the super good AC provided by the Bladesinger features are somehow wasted with Mirror Image. But I don’t know if it’s just a wrong perception.

You're correct, Mirror Image is less valuable the higher your AC is, because you're more likely to to have images vanish from things that would have missed you anyways.

I'd say that you do not want to be "using Mirror Image a lot" as a Bladesinger. It's pretty situational for them. You'll generally get more mileage out of spells like Shield or things that grant Disadvantage to be hit or things that actively suppress the enemy (control, etc).

[Frogreaver]

You're correct, Mirror Image is less valuable the higher your AC is, because you're more likely to to have images vanish from things that would have missed you anyways.



Consider an example of an ability that causes 2 out of 10 would be hits to miss you. Now consider an ability that causes 1 out of 3 would be hits to miss you. The relative amount of defense increased even though the absolute number of hits prevented decreased.

So while I agree that as AC increases mirror image will be less effective in the absolute sense, that doesn't necessitate that it actually becomes less effective in the relative sense. And I'm sure you are aware that relative hp increases is what impacts effective hp.

I've not actually ran the numbers so I can't say for sure which whether mirror image actually behaves this way or not. It is something I would love to dig into at some point though.

[cutlery]

You can't shield away a natural 20. You can preemptively soak it with an image (if you get lucky) or not be there with blink.

At low levels when 3rd level slots are still precious, mirror image is useful; even though ac will be high with bladesong; and there is no concentration to lose. You can also stack mirror image with blink for particularly hard fights.

Mirror image is not worth the action later, but unless you have epic rolled stats, not bad at all in Tier 1 and early Tier 2; especially if your DM likes long fights; or if you happen to have a fight when you are out of bladesong uses.

[Skylivedk]

Definitely Res:Con of the two. It only becomes more valuable as the campaign progresses

[Lyracian]

With the odd Con Res all all the way.
Even later Tough Vs +2 Con is only +1 HP per level and a -1 Con save.

[Speely]

Between the two, def Res: Con. With Bladesong up you become basically un-interruptable. Plus general Con saves other than Concentration that often wreck squishies. It plays directly into the strengths a Bladesinger already has.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Thanks very much for all responses, really appreciate the guidance. Resilient clearly stands out given my odd CON. For sure I’ll not be afraid to lose my lovely Shadow Blade anymore.

However, I still think that some extra HP would give me more confidence. Do you guys think that would make sense upcast False Life with a 2nd level spell slot for probably +10 avg THP? I know this spell is commonly referred as suboptimal, but just trying to think out of the box.

Maybe instead of using Mirror Image, that doesn’t synergize so well with Bladesong AC bonus.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Thanks very much for all responses, really appreciate the guidance. Resilient clearly stands out given my odd CON. For sure I’ll not be afraid to lose my lovely Shadow Blade anymore.

However, I still think that some extra HP would give me more confidence. Do you guys think that would make sense upcast False Life with a 2nd level spell slot for probably +10 avg THP? I know this spell is commonly referred as suboptimal, but just trying to think out of the box.

Maybe instead of using Mirror Image, that doesn’t synergize so well with Bladesong AC bonus.

Use it if your in a crunch but I wouldn't rely upon it constantly. If that is what your truly after then multiclassing into Warlock to grab the Fiendish Vigor evocation is a better option. This way you can use the spell without burning slots but you trade higher temp HP for a constant source of low temp HP. Mirror Image is still a good defensive spell to take and shouldn't be ignored. Remember, you have only a finite use of Bladesongs and regaining depends on the frequency of your DM allowing short rest prior to the party getting to take a long rest. Though if your concern in this respect is just AC bonus stacking then Mage Armor is your better option. As well the tried and true spell no Bladesinger should be without is Shield.

[LudicSavant]

By contrast to Mirror Image, things that grant Disadvantage to hit you have dramatically escalating returns with AC, so keep an eye out for opportunities to use stuff like, say, PFG&E.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Use it if your in a crunch but I wouldn't rely upon it constantly. If that is what your truly after then multiclassing into Warlock to grab the Fiendish Vigor evocation is a better option. This way you can use the spell without burning slots but you trade higher temp HP for a constant source of low temp HP. Mirror Image is still a good defensive spell to take and shouldn't be ignored. Remember, you have only a finite use of Bladesongs and regaining depends on the frequency of your DM allowing short rest prior to the party getting to take a long rest. Though if your concern in this respect is just AC bonus stacking then Mage Armor is your better option. As well the tried and true spell no Bladesinger should be without is Shield.

Really good catch... Armor of Agathys would be really nice for my Bladesinger as well. But I’ll avoid multiclass for RP-reasons.


By contrast to Mirror Image, things that grant Disadvantage to hit you have dramatically escalating returns with AC, so keep an eye out for opportunities to use stuff like, say, PFG&E.

I have thought about PFG&E and especially Blur. Main problem is the competition for my Concentration that will be usually dedicated for Shadow Blade, but I guess those spells could be a great “safety resource” in particular dangerous battles. I still have my trusted rapier and we are talking about less 1d8 of damage; the dim light advantage doesn’t come up a lot.

[Amechra]

Since you're using the SCAGtrips... War Caster.

Sure, it isn't one of the two you're looking at, but it has some perks.

Going off of some quick staring-at-anydice experimentation, making concentration checks with advantage when you have a +2 bonus is better than making it with a +6 bonus (proficiency + Con 16) if you're expecting to see Concentration check DCs between 10 and 17, meaning that it will actually do more for you than getting that bump in Con. If you activate Blade Song, this range goes from 12 to 20. I'd argue that this pretty much covers you for Tiers 1-2.

More importantly, though... it will let you use Booming Blade for opportunity attacks while smacking people with Shadow Blade. If someone moves away from you, you can potentially hit them for 5d8+Dex without upcasting Shadow Blade.

[Skylivedk]

Since you're using the SCAGtrips... War Caster.

Sure, it isn't one of the two you're looking at, but it has some perks.

Going off of some quick staring-at-anydice experimentation, making concentration checks with advantage when you have a +2 bonus is better than making it with a +6 bonus (proficiency + Con 16) if you're expecting to see Concentration check DCs between 10 and 17, meaning that it will actually do more for you than getting that bump in Con. If you activate Blade Song, this range goes from 12 to 20. I'd argue that this pretty much covers you for Tiers 1-2.

More importantly, though... it will let you use Booming Blade for opportunity attacks while smacking people with Shadow Blade. If someone moves away from you, you can potentially hit them for 5d8+Dex without upcasting Shadow Blade.

If we're looking broader then war caster, int bump, Res Con, Dex bump and alert all deserve examination.

[Amechra]

If we're looking broader then war caster, int bump, Res Con, Dex bump and alert all deserve examination.

I mean, they're already considering Res Con, so that one's already spoken for.

Boosting Intelligence is always going to be a really strong option. Boosting Dex is also going to be pretty good. But both of those choices are so obvious that I figured the OP had already considered them and was looking at other options.

Now Alert... I've always felt that it was role/campaign dependent. If you're a standard debuff-based caster, having a reasonable chance of going first and the ability to ignore being surprised is fantastic, since you want to be able to drop your spells on the enemy before they get a chance to act. On the other hand, if you're fighting on the front line, it comes down to how often your DM tries to ambush you. And if you're just concerned with people trying to ambush you... I'd consider Observant first.