combat TACTICAL challenge 2

[da newt]

Lets see what we can learn. Your objective is to defeat the enemy in combat using tactics that give you the best chance to succeed while expending the fewest resources. For simplicity, this is a locked room duel to the death, and the odds are not in your favor.

What will you do and especially WHY?

Your opponent:
TWO Yuan-Ti Abominations (CR 7, MM pg 308), each will cast fear if they can target 2 or more at the first opportunity, otherwise they will constrict then bite then scimitar every round. They will target who ever is effecting them the most. If they cannot attack w/ melee they will use their long bows.

Your Team:
lvl 6 Arcana Cleric:
V human, War Caster, 1/2 plate, shield, dagger, Lt Xbow, AC 19, 51 hp, 10 ST, 14 DX, 16 CON, 10 IN, 18 WI, 10 CH

lvl 6 Draconic Sorcerer:
V Human, War Caster, AC 15, 50 hp, 10 ST, 14 DX, 16 CO, 10 IN, 10 WI, 18 CH

lvl 6 Vengance Paladin:
V Human, PAM, GWM, Glaive, Plate, AC 18, 52 hp, 16 ST, 10 DX, 14 CON, 10 IN, 10 WI, 16 CH

The room is 50'x50' square, 25' ceiling, the walls are blank, the only feature in the room is a center 5'x5' pillar. At start - The YuanTi are each in the far corners, your Pali and Cleric are in the near corners with the Sorc along the wall between them.

Initiative order: Cleric, YuanTi 1, Sorc, YuanTi 2, Pali

You have no magic weapons, you can trade out gear if you like, you can pick any spells/proff/class options.

[MaxWilson]

Good challenge!! My first instinct is that these PCs are toast but I guess we'll see. So far my primary observation is that Fear doesn't work very well against cleric + paladin when they are close together, so the cleric's first turn should involve Dashing to within 10' of the paladin such that the Abominations will both blow their Fear immediately and hopefully waste their turns without affecting the Sorc.

That's all that's jumping out at me so far. Well, that and the obvious Spiritual Weapon on turn 1 as he's Dashing. I considered Sanctuary but it isn't time for that yet--enemies will be casting Fear.

It's basically up to the sorc to win this. I'm thinking Careful Web might be a decisive play.

[da newt]

I'm hoping that this will push folks to find a solution, but still be winnable if you use everything you've got. I'm new to encounter building.

I'm guessing if you can control one for a while, you can survive. Once we chew on it for a bit, I'll roll it out.

[TrueAlphaGamer]

Bro you really like making these challenges harder by giving us the Dragon Sorc of all classes.

Still.

Analysis will be predicated on the fact that Yuan Ti are not outfitted with bows/similar ranged options. If they are the players are basically shafted. If they aren't, there might be a chance.

Cleric Turn 1
Action: Either cast Silence immediately or Ready a Silence, based on how meathead the Yuan Ti are expected to move. Cast near wherever the first Yuan Ti move towards to prevent Verbal components.
Bonus Action: Upcast Spiritual Weapon, place somewhere on near side of pillar.
Movement: IDK prolly move up a bit, towards the center, but not too much, staying out of range.

Sorc Turn 1
Action: Cast Haste on the Paladin
Bonus Action: IDK
Movement: Move towards Paladin, hope to bait a Fear
Reaction: Counterspell possible Fear (this is all we will be doing with our Reaction until there are no Fears left)

Paladin Turn 1
Action: Power Attack x2
Bonus Action: Vow of Emnity
Hasted Action: Disengage
Movement: Forward towards one of the Yuan Ti, then allow for attack, then use rest of movement to go past it, hopefully kiting him

Later turns become a toss-up, at least from my POV. Depends on how good the rolls are.

Cleric: Drop Silence? Start whacking remaining Yuan Ti in melee with Booming Blade and Spiritual Weapon.
Sorc: Counterspell when needed, twinning/quickening Chromatic Orbs or Firebolts otherwise? +++Scorching Rays
Paladin: Keep whacking the enemy until dead, hope to not get destroyed by a grapple?

[Frogreaver]

Good challenge!! My first instinct is that these PCs are toast but I guess we'll see. So far my primary observation is that Fear doesn't work very well against cleric + paladin when they are close together, so the cleric's first turn should involve Dashing to within 10' of the paladin such that the Abominations will both blow their Fear immediately and hopefully waste their turns without affecting the Sorc.

That's all that's jumping out at me so far. Well, that and the obvious Spiritual Weapon on turn 1 as he's Dashing. I considered Sanctuary but it isn't time for that yet--enemies will be casting Fear.

It's basically up to the sorc to win this. I'm thinking Careful Web might be a decisive play.

Command is going to be at the heart of my strat.

[MaxWilson]

On reexamination I've concluded that this challenge is actually pretty easy since the Abominations apparently aren't using their longbows. The room is big enough for kiting, so just Twin Haste (sorc + paladin) while the cleric uses Spiritual Weapons + Dodge to slow the enemy down even more. Then Hasted Disengage + 60' of movement + (Fire Bolt or GWM attacks) to finish off the Yuant-tis.

In the alternate scenario where they do use their bows, just Disarm them and take their bows, and then it's back to this scenario again.

I picked Spiritual Guardians over Bless so that even if the Yuan-tis try to control the center of the room, or split up, the cleric can still prevent them from attacking anyone except his Dodging self.

Never mind, this does not work: the Yuan-ti's Constrict attack has 10' range so they can just Ready an attack and wait for the Paladin's approach.

This is why playing things out is important. :) I learned and then unlearned something.

Any Yuan-ti Readying isn't Dashing or Dodging however, and if both are doing this then the sorc and cleric can safely take them out with cantrips. Paladin can also throw javelins.

I think Twin Haste is still a winner for this party but it's no longer a shooting-fish-in-a-barrel easy scenario, if the Abominations play it smart, which they are smart enough (Int 17) to do.

Edit: never mind, found a countermeasure to Readied Constrict. Paladin can Shove Yuan-ti away 5' (Athletics +6 vs. Abomination's +4) to break the grapple. He's got three chances including the Hasted attack, so high chance of success. Kiting is back on with high probability, baby!

I learned, unlearned, and relearned how to kill Yuan-ti with a Hasted paladin. :)

[da newt]

Shall I edit the first post so the YuanTi have their bows? :smalltongue:

w/ a 40 speed + 10' reach and large size, it will take some clever maneuvering to Kite in a 50x50 room ...

[MaxWilson]

Shall I edit the first post so the YuanTi have their bows? :smalltongue:

w/ a 40 speed + 10' reach and large size, it will take some clever maneuvering to Kite in a 50x50 room ...

Yes, definitely do that.

[Dork_Forge]

Well this looks like an interesting one, I think I'll throw this in Roll20 and see how it turns out. Not completely sure about tactics yet but I know I'll be going closed formation protecting the Sorcerer.

[Hellpyre]

Hmm. I have to run through a few things before I set a gameplan in stone, but I'm pretty sure casting beacon of hope on the first turn and closing ranks is probably the best starter here. Between advantage and pally aura that wastes the first action of both yuan-ti with pretty high odds.

What's the call on pre-buffs, glyphs of warding, and the like? I assumed they're off the table, but if that isn't the case the encounter opens up a lot more.

[Chugger]

Cleric - move to center of room and cast spirit guardians.
YT 1 - moves to get cleric and one other party member and casts fear (sorc counterspells it). It closes on cleric and ends turn in melee range of Cleric. It saves on SG and takes 7 pts damage.
Sorc - moves to cleric and casts Suggestion on YT 2 using meta magic to impose disadvantage on ST, canceling YT 2's advantage on ST - so TY 2 has to roll 13 to save. Much depends on this ST. Let's pretend it fails ST and is told to flee far away if there is an exit from the room - if not it's told not to fight or to surrender or to go to sleep or something - to stay out of the fight.
YT 2 is controlled.
Pal - moves up and does b.a. vow of enmity on TY-1 - does two polearm attacks w/ advantage and hits with each. Smites. That's 2d10 + 20 + 6 +6d8 = 37 + 27 = 64 damage. YT 1 has taken 71 damage and is over half dead. Now all party members are in Pal's aura.
Cleric casts Spir Weapon at lvl 3 and hits for 13 damage. Since YT has adv on magic saving throws he melee attacks but misses. YT 1 has now taken 84 damage. It has 43 left.
YT 1 can cast Suggestion at Sorc to make him drop concentration but Sorc will Counterspell it. So let's have YT 1 move around to melee attack Sorc. It hits Sorc three times but Sorc Shields, causing 1 to miss. Sorc easily makes 2 concentration checks w/ warcaster and prof in con saves. This time Cleric uses warcaster to cast Inflict Wounds and hits, doing 17 necrotic to YT 1. YT one has taken 101 damage and has 26 hp left.
Pal - attacks YT 1 and uses b.a. attack w/ PAM. He misses on his first attack but lands the other two. The first does 1d10 +3 +10 for 18, so he smites doing 9 more. YT 1 has taken 127 damage and dies.

Party now takes on YT 2. Cleric still has spir g going. Sorc still has 2 lvl 3 slots. Pal can bless them before they attack, and he has 2 lvl 1 slots to smite with. He's going to miss more w/ gwm because he's lost advantage. But Sorc can counterspell YT 2's fear. YT 2 might get off suggestion on the sorc (pal and cleric will save most likely, they have wis saves and pal's aura) but will get hurt and in 1 to 3 rounds probably lose concentration. Party has taken very little damage so far and will get hurt but will likely kill YT 2. If cleric goes down, Pal can LoH. If Pal goes down cleric can heal - Pal can LoH self if YT 2 beats him up and keep attacking w/ GWM - his damage output is great. They'll kill YT 2.

If YT 2 passes his first suggestion ST, then party is in massive trouble. He'll fear cleric and sorc, meaning Pal will have to run to Sorc and pull his hood over his face so he no longer can see the YT - and that might be cheese. If Arcana Cleric has minor illusion (can they?) he could cast a barrier so sorc can't see YT and this would be out of line of sight, meaning sorc would probably save out of fear next turn due to Aura. At this point YTs restrain and pummel cleric, and cleric probably needs to drop Guardian Spirits so Sorc can land suggestion - he can only cast one more imposing a disadvantage iirc. This one should work, and now YT 2 is out of fight. Party has a chance to win because they can quickly kill YT1 by pal nova and so on, as shown above. Then pal can loh cleric and they should have enough oomph to kill YT 2.

Divide and conquer is a _powerful_ tactic. I think it's the only way to win this fight. If second attempt to control YT 2 fails, party is in giant trouble. W/ meta magic sorc can possibly try one more time imposing a disad to neutralize the advantage - but if YT 2 is lucky he could save 3 times in a row - he could roll 13 or higher 3 times in a row. Not likely but could happen. Anyway, the party will win this encounter using divide and conquer tactics more times than it will lose.

[Ninja Bear]

The proposed combat logic for the Yuan-Ti abominations and no ranged weapons makes this substantially easier, since the room has a 25-foot ceiling. Since the Fears are 1/day for each and are the only ranged options they'll use, this means that the sorcerer can single-cast or twin Spider Climb and just plink from the ceiling the whole time. 10ftx10ft creature + max 10ft reach = out of range

So, without ranged weapons in play on the abominations, I think the following strategy works:

Cleric turn 1: Cleric casts Meld into Stone

YuanTi1 turn 1: YuanTi1 moves to where it can hit one half of the back wall in a 30 foot cone, casts Fear. Sorcerer reaction for turn 0: counterspell (auto-succeeds due to Fear being third level or less)

Sorcerer turn 1: moves 20 feet next to Paladin, twins Spider Climb targeting the two remaining party members, moves 10 feet up the wall behind the Paladin in the Paladin's corner

YuanTi2 turn 1: YuanTi2 moves to where it can hit one side of the back wall in a 30 foot cone, casts Fear. No reaction from the Sorcerer since we don't care if we fail, frightened won't interrupt concentration and Spider Climb lasts an hour while Fear lasts a minute

Paladin turn 1: move up the wall 5ft behind the sorcerer, attempt a Channel Divinity Fear at YuanTi1, cast Shield of Faith on the sorcerer

Cleric turn 2: (functionally out of the fight, will be skipped)

YuanTi1 turn 2: if it moved far enough turn 1, can book it across the room to try to attack the sorcerer. Sorcerer's reaction is reserved for Shield, and Paladin can take the AoO against YuanTi1

Sorcerer turn 2: moves all the way up the ceiling and cannot be hit. Proceeds to plink

YuanTi2 turn 2: YuanTi1 is occupying the only space that it could use to attack the paladin with 10ft reach, so it can't do anything (maybe it can attempt Suggestion if the combat logic is incomplete -- in that case the sorcerer can use their previous action to plug their ears with something and be fine)

Paladin turn 2: kites up and down the walls as necessary (again, may need to plug their ears for Suggestion if that's actually in the cards)

[stoutstien]

A few questions about the environment. What material is the walls and pillar made of and what are their current conditions? What is the lighting condition and how is it being lit? if one of the NPCs in question had a choice between killing one of the PCS or saving their Ally which would they choose?

[Unoriginal]

Edit: never mind, found a countermeasure to Readied Constrict. Paladin can Shove Yuan-ti away 5' (Athletics +6 vs. Abomination's +4) to break the grapple.

You can shove an Abomination that is currently constricting you?

Don't you need to break the grapple first?

Also, rule question: does the disadvantage from the restrained condition affect the Shove action?

[stoutstien]

You can shove an Abomination that is currently constricting you?

Don't you need to break the grapple first?

Nothing about being grappled prevents it or restrained for that matter.

[Valmark]

Nothing about being grappled prevents it or restrained for that matter.

When the grappler moves, they can move the grappled, so you can't shove them away. What you can do is remove the grappled, though (which is also said in the grappled condition).

[MaxWilson]

You can shove an Abomination that is currently constricting you?

Don't you need to break the grapple first?

Also, rule question: does the disadvantage from the restrained condition affect the Shove action?

Nope, Shoving is a classic way of breaking a grapple. If the grappled creature is moved out of grappling reach of the target, the grapple ends.

However, normally an Abomination would be grappling you from 5' away so it could also bite you, so you'd need two Shoves to get it out of range. This scenario is different because it's happening at 10' due to a Readied action.

Restrained creatures do not have disadvantage on ability checks.


When the grappler moves, they can move the grappled, so you can't shove them away.

Grappling creatures only drag grappled creatures along with them when moving normally, not when subjected to forced movement like shoves/Repelling Blast/Grasp of Hadar.

[da newt]

UPDATE - as requested I edited the first post to include Yuan-Ti longbows per MM.

[Valmark]

Grappling creatures only drag grappled creatures along with them when moving normally, not when subjected to forced movement like shoves/Repelling Blast/Grasp of Hadar.

Where does it say that it needs to be voluntarily? The grappled condition says that you can remove the grappled creature and the grapple section does specify the kind of movement needed.

[stoutstien]

Where does it say that it needs to be voluntarily? The grappled condition says that you can remove the grappled creature and the grapple section does specify the kind of movement needed.

As far as the rules are concerned Forced movement is forced movement. If that wasn't the case the last line from the grappled condition would be nonsensical due to the grappler being able to choose the force movement to also apply to the grappled target or vice versa.

[Valmark]

As far as the rules are concerned Forced movement is forced movement. If that wasn't the case the last line from the grappled condition would be nonsensical due to the grappler being able to choose the force movement to also apply to the grappled target or vice versa.

The condition says that it also ends if the grappled creature is removed from the reach of whatever it's grappling.

The grapple (attack) says that when the grappler moves (not the grappled) they can bring with them the grappled. Which will remain within reach should this happen.

There is no issue with this. As for forced movement being different from normal movement... Where is that said?
If it was true that 'when a creature moves' only means willing movement (I assume you're basing it on that) there would be no need to specify willing movement in, say, Booming Blade.

[MaxWilson]

Where does it say that it needs to be voluntarily? The grappled condition says that you can remove the grappled creature and the grapple section does specify the kind of movement needed.

"Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

When you move. Not when you are moved. It's the same reason you can't drag a creature with you when your mount moves you.

[Valmark]

"Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry the grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved, unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you."

When you move. Not when you are moved. It's the same reason you can't drag a creature with you when your mount moves you.

Again, if this is true, why would there be a spell that specifies willing movement as its trigger?

Sorry if I insist but it's pretty important when creatures that grapple automatically are involved.

[MaxWilson]

Again, if this is true, why would there be a spell that specifies willing movement as its trigger?

You're changing the subject from grappling rules to Booming Blade, without addressing the actual grappling rules. I'll briefly address BB if you'll address the grappling rules.

Booming Blade makes no sense, period. If there's any spell which should logically detonate even on forced movement, an immobilization spell like Booming Blade is it.

In any case, "If the target willingly moves before then" describes the same kind of movement that the grappling rule does: spend movement, move. Neither is forced movement. If the grappling rule were meant to apply to forced movement it wouldn't just say your speed is halved, it would say the distance you move is halved. It's only taking about movement which expends your movement budget--moving, not being moved. "When you move, you can drag or carry the Grappled creature with you, but your speed is halved."

Booming Blade seems to be talking about the same thing in different words, but if Booming Blade has weird wording that's par for the SCAG course. BB is weird in at least two other ways as well. (Three if you count the fact that it was outsourced to IIRC Green Ronin instead of being written by WotC.) I wouldn't expect too much consistency from it.

@da newt can we get a ruling on this subject? For purposes of this thread, when you shove someone who's grappling you, do you both move or only them?

[Valmark]

I'm fairly sure that something/someone is moving even if it's not them who are initiating the movement. Even if I'm being moved, I'm still what is moving.

But yeah, the easiest thing is to get a ruling.

[Nhorianscum]

Oh my, this one is a doozy.

Gonna take a bit to process.

Question:does the paladin have access to their mount?

Is this a spontaneous encounter or did the party have a moment of prep?

Edit: I'm going to have to assume prep or full success of fear saves. Without it the chance of 2 uses fear sticking on at least1 PC is just way too high. The sneks just autowin something like 64% of the time.

Edit: Figured it out.

[Hellpyre]

Hmmmm. Which Yuan-ti moves first, the one opposite the Cleric or the one diagonally across from the Cleric?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Hmm, not easy.
My 6th level Sorc has Slow, which is a 40' cube, meaning if you cast it on an angle the Yuan-ti are both in it at the beginning. Of course the magic resistance makes this less likely to work out well. I'm still thinking.

[Unoriginal]

Is it better to have the Sorcerer be a Green Dragon's descendant, for the resistance to poison, or another kind of dragon's so that they can damage the Abominations more?

Feel like resistance to poison is more important here.

[Nhorianscum]

Is it better to have the Sorcerer be a Green Dragon's descendant, for the resistance to poison, or another kind of dragon's so that they can damage the Abominations more?

Feel like resistance to poison is more important here.

If a YT hits in mele it's eating 30ish damage regardless and fire adds 16 dpr to the rotation of twinned firebolt + quickened fireball which is significant and we can only hold 6sp.

With a 3rd level aid applied the sorc cannot actually be one rounded but will almost always be 2 rounded if it's ever caught out of its shield+quicken+dodge rotation

[Valmark]

Is it better to have the Sorcerer be a Green Dragon's descendant, for the resistance to poison, or another kind of dragon's so that they can damage the Abominations more?

Feel like resistance to poison is more important here.

Eh... It'll take one more melee attack to down the sorcerer, end. Well, one more succesful melee attack. I don't think that beats more damage.

[Unoriginal]

Fair, then, Sorcerer in damage-dealing mode.

You know, the Abomination has +4 to resist Disarm, it's not that much compared to the Paladin's attack mod. It could be worthwhile for the Paladin to take away both their weapons (since it makes them unable to attack at range and cut their melee attack to only one Bite and one Constrict), and since the Abominations focus on the one who does the more damage to them they won't target the Paladin for a while.

Of course that means the Cleric would have to tank/protect the Sorcerer for at least two rounds, and it'll make the fight last longer due to not having the Paladin's damage to help for said rounds. But you're also diminishing the Abomination's damage output and tactical capacities significantly.

I wonder if it'd be possible to bait both Yuan-ti to cast Fear on the Cleric and the Sorcerer while the Paladin is Disarming them.

[Nhorianscum]

Fair, then, Sorcerer in damage-dealing mode.

You know, the Abomination has +4 to resist Disarm, it's not that much compared to the Paladin's attack mod. It could be worthwhile for the Paladin to take away both their weapons (since it makes them unable to attack at range and cut their melee attack to only one Bite and one Constrict), and since the Abominations focus on the one who does the more damage to them they won't target the Paladin for a while.

Of course that means the Cleric would have to tank/protect the Sorcerer for at least two rounds, and it'll make the fight last longer due to not having the Paladin's damage to help for said rounds. But you're also diminishing the Abomination's damage output and tactical capacities significantly.

I wonder if it'd be possible to bait both Yuan-ti to cast Fear on the Cleric and the Sorcerer while the Paladin is Disarming them.

I'm currently comparing sleet storm vs level 4 flight

Both seem to work as long as the cleric immediately makes the sorc fearless.

[da newt]

Ruling - For the sake of this challenge Forced movement breaks a grapple IF it moves the grappled out of the Grapple Range (aka 10' = 2 good pushes, since the YuanTi will grapple then pull PC into bite/scimitar range).

I'm pretty sure this is RAW based on the Grappled Condition PHB pg 290:
"The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell."

Chugger - Suggestion is a great idea to take one YuanTi out of the fight, what specifically will be suggested such that it lasts? "If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do." Surrender takes one action to complete, flee as far as you can in a small room = one turn, etc ... How can we make this DM proof?

Fly/Spider Climb - All great suggestions and effective if they have no ranged attack (or can't jump or climb), but that's why I took the recommendation to give them their Long Bows, and edited the first post.

Hellpyre - We'll say YuanTi 1 is closer to Cleric at start.

Room - classic white room, smooth marble walls, florescent lighting (:smallbiggrin:), no door ...

Actions start at first turn - no prebuffing, you can summon spirits into the room so FIND STEED would be in play on Pali's turn.

Maybe Ready action Heightened Slow ...

[Frogreaver]

Chugger - Suggestion is a great idea to take one YuanTi out of the fight, what specifically will be suggested such that it lasts? "If the suggested activity can be completed in a shorter time, the spell ends when the subject finishes what it was asked to do." Surrender takes one action to complete, flee as far as you can in a small room = one turn, etc ... How can we make this DM proof?



Suggestion: "run around this room 100 times work to prove you are the fastest" would that work?

[Nhorianscum]

EDIT: Simplified the whole thing.

Initiative order: Cleric, YuanTi 1, Sorc, YuanTi 2, Pali

Cleric YT1 left

Pali Yt2 Right.

Sorc Center: (slots are 2, 1, 3, 1)

We'll assume the YT follow their heuristic here.

R1: Cleric: Calm emotions, move towards sorc
YT1: Full move and fear
Sorc: Prone, Sleet storm everything not in the party (the closest edge should actually be right at the edge of the sorcs square)
YT2: Full move. Fear.
Paladin: Full move to sorc, heroism on sorc and self. Vow on YT1.

R2: Cleric: Drop calm emotions, cast SG overlapping so that the YT cannot reach mele with the party. (assuming the sorc has moved to a corner this should be 15 ft right of the sorc and 5 ft up)
YT1: Is very confused and shoots at the sorc after moving to the edge of SG.
Sorc: 15 ft towards guarded corner,. Preforms "the worm", stand, quickened Fireball(4)+twinned firebolt. Go prone.
YT2: Also shoots at sorc and feels bad about its snake based life choices. Full moves and bunks on SG.
Paladin: Comences GWM smitespam on YT1.

Round 3:

Cleric: Dodge. Move to the edge of sleet adjacent to pala and cast SW.
YT1: May be dead now on very high rolls. If not it can do some damage to the cleric or paladin.
Sorc: Worms again with a 3rd level quickened fireball and twinned firebolt moving to a spot safe from YT2.
YT2: can mele the cleric now.
Paladin: If YT1 isn't dead yet. Finish it off.

Past this we're just gangstomping YT2. Sorc swaps to SRay at 3rd level and chugs its remaining 2nd level slot for SP to quicken firebolt+sray next round.

[Hellpyre]

Ruling -
Actions start at first turn - no prebuffing, you can summon spirits into the room so FIND STEED would be in play on Pali's turn.


With a 10-minute cast time, find steed will probably not be a factor for anyone involved.


Cleric opens with ready action to dispel magic if the Sorc becomes frightened and moves in towards the Sorc. First Yuan-Ti closes towards the middle of the room and casts fear targeting Cleric and Sorc. Cleric is a 50/50 on passing, but we don't really care at all if they do or not. Spell Breaker lets them remove fear with Healing Word, so at worst it causes them to waste a bonus action to burn the Yuan-Ti's action Sorc is a 75% chance to fail, so we can assume they will do so (if they don't, it potentially saves a BA on the next turn because the second fear gets dispelled instead, but we'll run with the odds here).

Sorc's turn comes, and they are not frightened anymore. Going with fire as draconic Sorc element, upcasting Scorching Ray and then a quickened firebolt deals an average of 33 damage to an AC 15 Yuan-Ti, and assuming a save, fireball + quickened firebolt does an average of 27. Heightened fireball is a save for the Yuan-Ti on a roll of 12 or higher, so average damge from that and a bolt is 35.4 for a total of 5 sorcery points. So I think we look at our attack roll spells here.
(Odds on Heightened or Twinned save spells are slightly in our favor, but it really muddies the math when it's an all or nothing effect. Best call is almost certainly to Twin Suggestion 3 rounds in a row or until you succeed once - the odds on twin are slightly worse - a 40.8% chance of both succeeding with advantage vs a 40% chance for a save without advantage on one target, but you save a sorcery point and have a better best-case scenario)

[Valmark]

Ruling - For the sake of this challenge Forced movement breaks a grapple IF it moves the grappled out of the Grapple Range (aka 10' = 2 good pushes, since the YuanTi will grapple then pull PC into bite/scimitar range).

I'm pretty sure this is RAW based on the Grappled Condition PHB pg 290:
"The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell."


The question was if you can break the grapple by pushing the grappler or if it only works by pushing the grappled.

[Frogreaver]

Unless I'm missing something, the first yuanti can move to a position such that the sorcerer and paladin can both be targeted by fear before either have had a turn.

[Valmark]

Unless I'm missing something, the first yuanti can move to a position such that the sorcerer and paladin can both be targeted by fear before either have had a turn.

Yes- and the sorcerer is likely to fail it (15+) while the paladin is slightly likely to pass it (9+). I think the best option is to throw Calm Emotions, probably, as to ward off against the fear.

Unsure if it stops a Fear casted afterwards though. Guess the cleric can just Ready it.

[Nhorianscum]

Yes- and the sorcerer is likely to fail it (15+) while the paladin is slightly likely to pass it (9+). I think the best option is to throw Calm Emotions, probably, as to ward off against the fear.

Unsure if it stops a Fear casted afterwards though. Guess the cleric can just Ready it.

It stops fear but you'll need to remove the effect before dropping calm.

[Gignere]

Yes- and the sorcerer is likely to fail it (15+) while the paladin is slightly likely to pass it (9+). I think the best option is to throw Calm Emotions, probably, as to ward off against the fear.

Unsure if it stops a Fear casted afterwards though. Guess the cleric can just Ready it.

Probably a good time to blow counterspell in this case for the sorcerer.

[Unoriginal]

A turn where the Abomination cast Fear is a turn to damage them without getting hurt. Baiting the Fear (twice) by having the Cleric get close of the Paladin seems worthwhile for me.

[Nhorianscum]

A turn where the Abomination cast Fear is a turn to damage them without getting hurt. Baiting the Fear (twice) by having the Cleric get close of the Paladin seems worthwhile for me.

The issue here is more "what happens when 2 abominations gang a player, because that's what happens to sorcyboi or clericperson if the fear turn gets used for aggro.

If either ever gets tagged by 2 YTA's without a way of generating disadvantage they're probably just straight up dead.

[Valmark]

Probably a good time to blow counterspell in this case for the sorcerer.

Oh, right, forgot about Counterspelling yeah.

[Unoriginal]

The issue here is more "what happens when 2 abominations gang a player, because that's what happens to sorcyboi or clericperson if the fear turn gets used for aggro.

If either ever gets tagged by 2 YTA's without a way of generating disadvantage they're probably just straight up dead.

Not sure I follow.

Evn if only Yuan-ti 1 gets baited into casting Fear on Pala-boi and Cleri-boi, the two Abominations can't gang on any of the PCs.

Furthermore, given that those Yuan-ti have to attack whoever deals the most damage to them (since are programmed video game NPCs forced to follow the script and not able to act like normal people), as long as each Yuan-ti is damaged by a different PC (or both are damaged by the same PC but then one of them is damaged more by another), then the Yuan-ti are unable to gang on the same PC.

[Nhorianscum]

Not sure I follow.

Evn if only Yuan-ti 1 gets baited into casting Fear on Pala-boi and Cleri-boi, the two Abominations can't gang on any of the PCs.

Furthermore, given that those Yuan-ti have to attack whoever deals the most damage to them (since are programmed video game NPCs forced to follow the script and not able to act like normal people), as long as each Yuan-ti is damaged by a different PC (or both are damaged by the same PC but then one of them is damaged more by another), then the Yuan-ti are unable to gang on the same PC.

Eh, the phrasing is definitely not damage but rather "effect" and speaks for the YTA's as a duo rather than individually. It's a pretty flex heuristic that a DM might jot in their notes as an aid to running these quickly rather than robot programming.

As for ganging... not immediately. But keep in mind that by moving up for fear unopposed the YTA's are in position to both hit any PC.

Similarly any movement that would entice a fear on paladin+cleric will also hit the sorc.

Note: Counterspell eats that precious shield reaction so it can be risky to use on YTA2.

[Asisreo1]

Still thinking through this, but I don't think Fear is all that bad. If anyone is in the corner when under fear, they'll just act as normal. Essentially, the YT starting out with a fear spell is a waste of a turn, especially when targetting the paladin.

If the sorcerer gets feared, they're still able to quicken their spells.

[Valmark]

Still thinking through this, but I don't think Fear is all that bad. If anyone is in the corner when under fear, they'll just act as normal. Essentially, the YT starting out with a fear spell is a waste of a turn, especially when targetting the paladin.

If the sorcerer gets feared, they're still able to quicken their spells.

If you're in a corner with the YT within... Whatever is the distance from a corner to the center you'll move away by heading to the other corner. Unless the YT is precisely at the same distance from each wall, but why would they do that knowing it invalidates the fear they casted?

[Nhorianscum]

Still thinking through this, but I don't think Fear is all that bad. If anyone is in the corner when under fear, they'll just act as normal. Essentially, the YT starting out with a fear spell is a waste of a turn, especially when targetting the paladin.

If the sorcerer gets feared, they're still able to quicken their spells.

Kinda ish? They have to run away from the source every round so if the YTA moves they have to move which shuts off most BC, they also have disadvantage on... pretty much everything and one action per turn.

It's not good.

------------

Edit: Worth noting that with advantage and without smites the paladin only manages 28ish DPR and needs a whopping 5 rounds to actually down a YTA. By comparison the YTA hits 20 DPR on the paladin so we will need to use another round for lay on hands just to not die and even that is risky. It also takes a whopping 6 rounds with our heal.

The cleric takes even longer dealing a whopping 14 DPR if its dodging.

The sorc deals um, 64 average when gunning for both YT. As an average, if both make the save. That's the value of our 3rd level sorc slots. (4th on 2x prone + hold twinned bolt hits for gross numbers) It cannot do this with the YTA's in mele.

The YTA's can actually force in-combat-healing as a death spiral very easily.

[Chugger]

Given the initiative order, the most logical thing to do is have cleric move to where YT 1 will move in and fear-cone (and thus be in melee range of pal when he moves up and attacks later this round) and counterspell this fear. Then Sorc uses meta magic to negate YT 2's advantage on ST and casts some sort of control on it - he could try to Hyp Pattern both and there's a good chance YT 2 will fail, but then YT 1 shoots YT 2 with an arrow to wake it or eats an OA and goes over to wake it.

YT's speak common, so suggestion can be used to remove YT 2 from the fight (unless DM is a jerk on suggestion). Sorc could possibly fear both and hope to at least get YT 2 feared - YT 1 will likely make it because sorc can only do the meta magic thing on one target.

You've got to divide and conquer to win this, or at least that's a great way to do it or have a chance at winning. If sorc is restrained he can misty step out of it. Put your minds to control spells. Cleric control spells won't work well because of the adv on ST - except spirit guardians gives rough terrain and slows movement for the YTs. That will help force them to attack the pal or cleric, not the sorc - that allows the sorc to move to where they can't reach him and attack.

What other control spells can they try besides suggestion and fear? Phantasmal Force isn't good - the victim can uses its action to investigate and gets a ST probably with advantage, maybe every turn. PF won't last. Suggestion, if they fail the ST, lasts until caster loses concentration or an ally hurts the YT. Hyp pattern is weak cuz the other YT can break it. Fear - it moves away until it can't move any more and then what? DM interpretation - maybe it can use its bow. Blindness - maybe. Web won't do much.

If you can't remove a YT from the fight it's going to be hard, obviously. Get YT 1 to cast fear on round 1 and counterspell it. If Sorc fails ST on YT 2's fear (lets say he does), Cleric can dispel it next round. This means round one YTs did no damage and moved Sorc away - Pal can still have his nova round and drop YT 1 to less than half health.

Round 2 YT 1 still takes damage from cleric's spirit guardians, and cleric dispels fear. YT 1 could give cleric OA and try moving to sorc but 15' or more of difficult terrain - and cleric will inflict wound and really hurt YT 1. I guess YT 1's best attack is to restrain cleric. Now sorc can try casting Slow on both YT, using meta magic to negate YT 2's ST - let's pretend YT 2 fails.

YT 2 comes up to attack cleric and would shred him - he's restrained - but is slowed, so only hurts him a little. Pal really hurt's YT 1 and is now down to 2 or 1 lvl 1 slots.

Cleric kills YT 1. Now everyone turns on YT 2, which is slowed. If YT 2 tries to shoot one arrow at sorc it's at disadvantage and sorc can shield - and if he's hurt he will probably make his roll and keep concentration. YT 2 can fear Sorc and Cleric - cleric will make St and lets say Sorc fails again. But fear doesn't make you lose concentration - so even if sorc is removed from fight, cleric and pal can finish off YT 2. They have good heals if someone drops - Pal has LoH. Pal will land one or two of his 3 GWM attacks a round and shred the YT. Cleric will probably keep concentration on his spirit guardians and will reach a point where he can also pop spiritual weapon and melee for his action.

Honestly I think YT's best tactic is to pepper Sorc w/ poison arrows and take him out early.

[MaxWilson]

Okay, I found a tactic that I'm reasonably happy with. I probably got a little lucky on the dice when I ran it, but I think the approach is sound. My results: By the end of round 3 both Yuan-ti were dead, the Arcana Cleric was down 9 HP and two slots (1st, 2nd), the Paladin was down 4 spell slots (4 1st), and the sorcerer was down 3 sorcery points and 3 spell slots (3rd, 3rd, 3rd).

Two key points: (1) what makes this fight deadly is the bad initial positioning, and cleric goes first so cleric needs to buy time on rounds 1 and 2 for others to safely buff for a round, and (2) use the corner to protect the sorcerer.

The map looks like this:

https://i.postimg.cc/GtVPX9Wn/Yuanti-Fight.png (https://postimg.cc/kRNt4MMT)

Round 1:
Cleric advances towards Yuan-ti #1, Dodges, casts Spiritual Weapon to deal damage and "draw aggro" so to speak. Lucky crit, does 18 damage.
Per OP, Yuanti-#1 responds by attacking back, with disadvantage, missing three times.
Sorcerer casts Twin Haste and moves to a safer position. Note: I missed an opportunity here to also throw a Net on Yuan-ti #1 but oh well.
Yuan-ti #2 has no way to hit multiple targets with Fear due to sorc's movement, per OP moves to attack greatest threat so far (cleric). Misses three times.
Paladin casts Protection From Evil on self, swears a Vow of Enmity towards Yuan-ti #2, and throws a net, missing. (I messed up here and gave myself disadvantage on the Net attack despite the offsetting Vow of Enmity advantage.) Moves back towards corner to give sorcerer a safe place to hide next round.

IMO #1 was the crucial round. At this point the PCs have the upper hand due to positioning and buffs.

Round 2:
Cleric knows he's still the main target until the paladin starts acting, so Dodges again, casts Shield of Faith on self to buff defenses further. (Sanctuary could also have worked but he wants to do opportunity attacks with Warcaster/Booming Blade.)
Yuan-ti #1 misses cleric three times.
Sorcerer Fireballs (lucky damage roll results in 37). Yuan-ti #1 saves, takes 18 damage. Yuan-ti #2 fails, takes 37 damage. Sorcerer misses Yuan-ti #2 with a net attack (disadvantage) and moves back into the corner behind paladin and drops prone.
Yuan-ti #2 sees an opportunity to cast Fear and moves toward Paladin and Sorc's corner. Sorc Counterspells. Yuan-ti moves into melee range to threaten Constrict opportunity attacks. Paladin hits with a PAM GWM reaction attack for 14 HP of damage.
Paladin gets pretty lucky on attacks but also unlucky because I messed up. That is, he makes three attacks and hits with all three, Divine Smiting with a 1st level spell slot on all three, for 26, 26, 27 (79) damage. He's unlucky because apparently I completely forgot about his Hasted attack (according to my logs) and he should have gotten a fourth attack. My math says the average expected damage in this case is 69 HP of damage so it looks like good dice luck and bad mistake luck pretty much cancelled out. In any case, 79 (3 Paladin hits with Divine Smite) + 37 (Fireball) + 14 (PAM opportunity attack) is 130 HP, which is enough to kill the 127 HP Yuan-ti Abomination #2.

Since Sorc has AC 17 from Haste, +5 when Shielding, and since the Yuan-ti cannot stop in the paladin's space and therefore cannot get closer than 10' to the sorc, this means the Yuan-ti will only be able to attack AC 22 at disadvantage once per round with his constrict attack (9% chance of success) or twice with his longbow. The Paladin is AC 20, and has Misty Step to escape from constriction, plus four to five GWM/PAM attacks per round. Sorc will have +10 on any concentration saves.

At this point PCs are in a very strong position and would be even if Yuan-ti #2 were still alive.


[/B]
Round 3:
Cleric knows Paladin has just become target of choice. He Booming Blades Yuan-ti #1 (hitting with dagger + booming energy for 8 damage). Missed opportunity: I forgot to use the Spiritual Weapon that's still there from round 1.
Yuan-ti #1 sees an opportunity to Fear Paladin and Sorc and takes it. Takes 8 HP of Booming Blade damage, then a Warcaster opportunity attack from the Arcana cleric for another 10 damage, followed by 8 more HP of Booming Blade damage. At this point he's down 18 (Fireball) + 16 (Booming Blade #1) + 18 (Booming Blade opportunity attack) = 52 HP. He casts Fear, and the sorc fails his save. Paladin is immune due to Protection From Evil. Edit: this was an error on my part. I thought Yuan-tis were Aberrations but they aren't.
Paladin hits Yuan-ti four times (one crit for 30 HP after GWF rerolls, which I assume the Paladin must have because he doesn't have Defense style or he'd be AC 19, then a hit for 17, another hit for 17, and a haft attack for another 17). 54 + 30 + 17*3 = 135 which is greater than 127 HP so Yuan-ti #2 is dead.

Missed opportunities and critiques:

The single biggest mistake I made here is having the Paladin buff with Protection From Evil instead of Heroism or Bless, due to mistakenly believing Yuan-ti to be Aberrations. Bless probably would be the stronger choice in order to increase offensive output. I also missed some opportunities to do net attacks, e.g. on the round when Twin Haste is cast.

I got unusually lucky on die rolls with the Paladin. It probably should have taken more more rounds to kill those Yuan-ti, and I probably should have taken some damage in the process.

I think the core approach is sound though and likely to work even with typical luck on the dice: as long as the cleric can Dodge while also threatening the Yuan-ti on round #1, and the sorcerer can be "castled" (like a king in Chess) into a position where no Yuan-ti can approach closer than 10', and the cleric stands ready to Healing Word away any unlucky Fear failures (not needed in this case but available), I think the PCs can win this one despite their awful initial tactical positioning.

There may be other variations which work even better, such as having the cleric create the "Castle" pocket instead of the Paladin, or having the Paladin Dodge with their regular action while attacking with Hasted action + bonus action + sometimes reaction. (Also it matters whether enemies can move through Spiritual Weapon or if it acts like a creature--I ruled that it does not block movement.)

TL;DR What the cleric does on the first turn is decisive. You must protect the sorcerer.

[Frogreaver]

Probably a good time to blow counterspell in this case for the sorcerer.

Actually thinking through this. Sorc can counterspell both fears. As his turn falls between them so he gets his reaction back. I think that's how we deal with fear. And it provides a full turn to try and gun 1 of the things down.

I'm thinking about Magic Missile with the cleric and go all out DPS with the paladin. Goal being to gun 1 down as fast as possible?

[Chugger]

That's a good point - sorc can counterspell both fears.

I don't think Prot G and E works on these YT. They are monstrosities.

Aberrations, celestials, fiends, fey and undead is what are affected by Prot E and G.

[MaxWilson]

That's a good point - sorc can counterspell both fears.

I don't think Prot G and E works on these YT. They are monstrosities.

Aberrations, celestials, fiends, fey and undead is what are affected by Prot E and G.

I'm not sure who you're addressing but if me, I agree. See the "Missed opportunities and critiques" section at the end of my previous post.

I've run the combat several more times since then with fairly consistent success despite using several strategies. That corner castling move is pretty decisive, if you're patient. My current favorite opening is to have the Cleric create a pocket while casting Spirit Guardians, then Sorc Twin Hastes (and tosses a net) and goes prone in the pocket, while Paladin casts Bless while swearing a Vow of Enmity and moves next to the cleric to provide partial cover. On round #2, Paladin and Cleric shift positions slightly while both Dodging as the Paladin makes his first two or three attacks. Then the Yuan-ti are both in position to begin Paladin-kiting them every other round while the cleric makes Booming Blade opportunity attacks (and the sorc Fireballs).

It gets a little bit messy when the Paladin gets hit with a lucky constriction attack, but it's not (usually) fatal because he can Misty Step away on his next turn, and because the cleric and sorc are not forced to panic--they just keep Dodging/Fireballing per usual.

[JackPhoenix]

The Yuan-ti "will target who ever is effecting them the most."

Well, that's easy, ignore them for as long as you want, they'll ignore you. The PC side has as much time to position and buff yourself as they want.

[Asisreo1]

The Yuan-ti "will target who ever is effecting them the most."

Well, that's easy, ignore them for as long as you want, they'll ignore you. The PC side has as much time to position and buff yourself as they want.
They're just as afraid of you as you are to them! Don't panic and keep your buffs on.

[Asisreo1]

If you're in a corner with the YT within... Whatever is the distance from a corner to the center you'll move away by heading to the other corner. Unless the YT is precisely at the same distance from each wall, but why would they do that knowing it invalidates the fear they casted?
You can't move closer to the Yuan-Ti at all during the frightened duration, meaning if you're in a corner, the only way you would have a means of movement is if the line between you and the monster is parallel to any of the walls.

They do start in this position, actually, but if you're the sorcerer who is already in the middle, you'll only move 25ft before hitting the corner and then being able to take your action as normal. Incidentally, the far corner is also the position where line of sight is broken.

[Hellpyre]

The Yuan-ti "will target who ever is effecting them the most."

Well, that's easy, ignore them for as long as you want, they'll ignore you. The PC side has as much time to position and buff yourself as they want.

So if I can land Enemies Abound on one, they kill each other even after I drop concentration or it takes damage? Perfect

[JackPhoenix]

So if I can land Enemies Abound on one, they kill each other even after I drop concentration or it takes damage? Perfect

Worked in the original Doom, didn't it?

[da newt]

I hope to have time to roll some of these today. BTW I view the YuanTi heuristics as guidelines (vice LAW) which they will follow unless it's obvious that they should do something else.

As for Suggestion, best I've been able to come up with is heightened "I SUGGEST you sit in that corner and close your eyes for one minute, and we won't attack you."

Max - I appreciate the level of effort.

One thing I'm seeing from these is the benefit of taking the DODGE action. I rarely see it used much in practice.

[Valmark]

Why exactly can't the suggestion be "kill the other yuan-ti"?

[Unoriginal]

Why exactly can't the suggestion be "kill the other yuan-ti"?

Because of the effects of the spell Suggestion.

[Valmark]

Because of the effects of the spell Suggestion.

Meaning? It's not a obviously harmful action for the Suggested yuan-ti and you can just ignore it until the other is dead. What am I missing?

[da newt]

"The Suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable. Asking the creature to stab itself, ..., or do some other obvious harmful act ends the spell."

Depending on the DM's ruling, a suggestion to "Kill or attack your ally" may or may not meet the spell's requirements / limits. If your DM is generous, this is a powerful tactic, but I'm not sure how many DMs would allow it.

[Valmark]

Given that the examples given are all suicide-type orders and that attacking someone isn't an obviously harmful effect (for the Suggested) I'd think a DM would be nerfing it by not allowing that, but I'm guessing in this specific case at least it isn't allowed, so nevermind.

[Unoriginal]

Attacking your allies directly when they're helping you in a fight to the death is unreasonable, IMO.


If it was using an AoE and damaging your allies in an effort to hurt the enemies, I'd consider that more reasonable. Like "Suggestion: hurt your enemies no matter the sacrifices others have to make".

If the person you're casting on it is sure of winning, I would allow something like "Suggestion: now is the right moment to get rid of those who have outlived their usefulness".

[Nhorianscum]

Because of the effects of the spell Suggestion.

To be fair, killing and eating another YTA is about on par with the given example in text of a knight passing off his warhorse from the perspective of the YTA.

(It's a bit of a moot point as the YTA's have absolutely stellar saves so SoS effects are just coinflips)

[Valmark]

Just add "And we won't fight you anymore". Done, it's not harmful/unreasonable anymore.

Also, a 60% chance of failing the save doesn't look so improbable- it isn't nowhere assured though yeah.

[MaxWilson]

Why exactly can't the suggestion be "kill the other yuan-ti"?

How exactly are you going to word that to make it sound reasonable?


Just add "And we won't fight you anymore". Done, it's not harmful/unreasonable anymore.

That would sound reasonable if the PCs were already winning the fight and the Yuan-ti was afraid for its life. But initially that doesn't sound reasonable or attractive to me with my Yuan-ti hat on. My reaction is, "Ha! YOU won't harm ME?! Seriously?" and then to ignore the offer.

[Valmark]

How exactly are you going to word that to make it sound reasonable?


Just add "And we won't fight you anymore". Done, it's not harmful/unreasonable anymore.


Like that. Or any variation on the theme "Kill that guy and good stuff happens".

[MaxWilson]

Like that. Or any variation on the theme "Kill that guy and good stuff happens".

"Kill your buddy and we won't fight you anymore" would sound reasonable if the PCs were already winning the fight and the Yuan-ti was afraid for its life, and it thought it could kill its buddy more easily and safely. But if you try that initially, at the beginning, that doesn't sound reasonable or attractive to me with my Yuan-ti hat on. My reaction is to say, "Ha! YOU won't harm ME?! Seriously?" and then kill you.

What other good stuff do you have to offer? (Also I think that turns this into a RP challenge, which is out of scope for this thread. In actual adventuring it would be fine, just as turning everyone invisible and sneaking away would be fine, but both are disallowed in this thread.)

[Nhorianscum]

That would sound reasonable if the PCs were already winning the fight and the Yuan-ti was afraid for its life. But initially that doesn't sound reasonable or attractive to me with my Yuan-ti hat on. My reaction is, "Ha! YOU won't harm ME?! Seriously?" and then to ignore the offer.

What other good stuff do you have to offer?

Our delicious warm blood drizzled over its scales as if by a master confectioner and massaged in by our dieing hands as we sing to the glory and beauty of the greater YTA?

[MaxWilson]

Our delicious warm blood drizzled over its scales as if by a master confectioner?

As if I'm not going to get that already just by killing you.

Not a reasonable-sounding suggestion. (Also, out of scope for this thread because it's RP. For this thread I think we're intended to simply assume that you can't think of any reasonable-sounding Suggestions that will emulate the effects of Dominate Monster for this fight.)


Our delicious warm blood drizzled over its scales as if by a master confectioner and massaged in by our dieing hands as we sing to the glory and beauty of the greater YTA?

I would let this one work if and only if Yuan-ti are noted for their vanity and desire to be worshiped by lesser beings. My memory tells me they are not (they are secretive and cunning instead of vain and attention-seeking) but I would double check, if this were a real game.

[Nhorianscum]

As if I'm not going to get that already just by killing you.

Not a reasonable-sounding suggestion. (Also, out of scope for this thread because it's RP. For this thread I think we're intended to simply assume that you can't think of any reasonable-sounding Suggestions that will emulate the effects of Dominate Monster for this fight.)

Pffft, splashing blood is so mundane and for lesser beings.

A true YTA doesn't even leave the sacrificial blood pool without using it's own birth mothers blood as a red carpet.

(I'm not really in disagreement, just enjoying the snakesinacrawl goodness)

[Valmark]

I said fight, not harm. One gives the yuan-ti free reign to kill the PCs in its charmed mind, the other implies the PCs will hurt them otherwise. Besides, I highly doubt anybody fancies a stab in the gut anyway. Especially because you already hurt them by now, so they can't go all smug.

Also note that my first iteraction wasn't a pretty simple non-RP Suggestion. Turn it into "And we'll surrender" or "And you can do whatever you want to us" otherwise. In fact, what you said about the Yuan-Ti's reply would be beyond the scope of the fight then.

(Also da newt already said this can't happen, so it doesn't have much of a point anymore).

[da newt]

I rolled this through once following Max's general start. It went like this:

Cleric moves N 30', cast Spiritual Weapon, attacks (65% to hit), HIT for 6 dam, DODGES
YT #1 moves into melee w/ cleric, can't get 2 in fear cone including cleric, so attack x3 at DISADV (20% to hit), MISS, MISS, HIT for 11 dam
Sorcerer TWINS SUGGESTION (13% both fail, 46% one fails, 41% both pass and cost is 2 Sorc Pts vs HEIGHTEN 40% save, 60% fail cost 3 Sorc Pts) #1 SAVE and #2 FAIL "Sit in the corner and close your eyes for 1 minute and we won't attack you." Sorc moves E.
YT #2 sits and closes eyes (with this ST fail, the encounter is no big deal)
Paladin move full 30' to YT #1, BA vow of I hate you, GWM att x2 w/ lvl 1 divine smite on hit (58% to hit for 32 dpr vs 84% to hit and 29 dpr without GWM), HIT, MISS for 26 dam

Cleric casts Inflict Wounds HIT 15 Dam, BA SpW MISS
YT#1 can't get both in fear (and sorc will counter anyway) so moves to att Pali x3 MISS, HIT, MISS for 17 dam to Pali
Sorc Quicken BA Scorching Ray (Gold dragon), MISS, HIT, MISS for 15 dam, cast FireBolt HIT for 13 dam, moves back into corner
YT #2 - sits
Pali att w/ GWM and smite, HIT for 29 dam, CRIT for 38, YT #1 is dead, moves to YT #2, BA buttstroke GWM w/ ADV because unseen, HIT for 23 dam (ends SUGGESTION)

Cleric casts Guiding Bolt, HIT for 10 dam, SpW att w/ ADV HIT for 11 dam
Sorc Quicken Scorching Ray, HIT, HIT, MISS for 10 + 4 dam, Fire Bolt HIT for 14 dam
YT #2 att Pali x3: MISS, HIT, HIT for 21 + 11 dam
Pali att x3 w/ GWM and smite lvl 2 HIT, HIT, MISS for 33 + 37 and YuanTi #2 is no more. ( I don't know if the odds support GWM without ADV - but that's what I did ...)

Once one YuanTi is out of the game, it's pretty much no big deal. But IF they both saved ...

Well that took me an embarrassingly long time to roll, map and type out. I hope I didn't mess anything up. I did SPAM smites at every opportunity which probably is less than efficient. The Pali did get good and bloody too. I probably could have been more tactical once turning to YT #2, but we won so there's that.

[MaxWilson]

These challenges are reminding me how much I hate vanilla PHB initiative. In these challenges, tiny details matter immensely in ways that have nothing to do with the game fiction: because the paladin goes "first" before the cleric relative to the Yuan-tis, pop-up healing doesn't work well but Sanctuary does. (The cleric can Sanctuary the paladin after every attack.) If they were swapped in order, Sanctuary wouldn't work, but pop-up healing would. Note also that this would still be equally true if the Paladin had rolled higher initiative than the cleric instead of the lowest initiative of anyone.

It makes an interesting tactical puzzle for an Internet discussion, but I would hate to actually play the game this way, because the "correct" tactics have so little to do with anything the PCs would logically be aware of, in-character. It feels so arbitrary--and that's on top of the other problems with PHB initiative, such as the fact that players spend 80% of their real-world time not being allowed to even talk to the DM because its "not your turn."

[Unoriginal]

These challenges are reminding me how much I hate vanilla PHB initiative. In these challenges, tiny details matter immensely in ways that have nothing to do with the game fiction: because the paladin goes "first" before the cleric relative to the Yuan-tis, pop-up healing doesn't work well but Sanctuary does. (The cleric can Sanctuary the paladin after every attack.) If they were swapped in order, Sanctuary wouldn't work, but pop-up healing would. Note also that this would still be equally true if the Paladin had rolled higher initiative than the cleric instead of the lowest initiative of anyone.

It makes an interesting tactical puzzle for an Internet discussion, but I would hate to actually play the game this way, because the "correct" tactics have so little to do with anything the PCs would logically be aware of, in-character. It feels so arbitrary--and that's on top of the other problems with PHB initiative, such as the fact that players spend 80% of their real-world time not being allowed to even talk to the DM because its "not your turn."

If this was a real game situation the PCs wouldn't be aware of what the Abominations would do if X or Y happens, and the DM would (hopefully) play the Abominations in a much more event-reactive way, which make the actual outcome impossible to predict.

Although it probably would include the Sorcerer being torn appart fast.

Also, I will argue that one character reacting faster than some but slower than others *is* part of the game's fiction. Plus it is a much-needed source of unpredictability. D&D would be horribly dull if we actually planned things during live sessions like we do in the challenges forum threads.

[da newt]

It's interesting to me because any one change (initiative, save, spell, crit, ...) can change so much. When I first devised this challenge, I thought is would be difficult to survive, but the hive mind has presented a few plausible solutions.

There have been a few suggestions that I can't quite figure out. It seems to me that a few of you have suggested that the Sorcerer can make multiple actions in one turn that I can't folow. Please include all the steps (metamagic etc) so we can learn the specifics (aka show your math, don't skip steps, 'cause some of us are playing catch up).

It has surprised me how easily countered Fear is in this example - counter spell, calm emotions, spell breaker, ... it's more of an inconvenience than a game changer.

I'm beginning to think that a really nasty Op Att threat (shadow blade + Booming Blade) and a Hi AC w/ DODGE may be a great single enemy control tactic ...

And YES - if the opponent fights smart, it gets even harder. I would argue the Longbow w/ poison attack may be the YuanTi's nastiest option.

So, what could we do better? What can we learn from all this?

[MaxWilson]

If this was a real game situation the PCs wouldn't be aware of what the Abominations would do if X or Y happens, and the DM would (hopefully) play the Abominations in a much more event-reactive way, which make the actual outcome impossible to predict.

But it wouldn't change the fact that pop-up healing vs. Sanctuary is dependent on initiative order.

In fact, I've run this combat multiple times, allowing the Yuan-ti to act differently if another action was clearly better, and it doesn't change very much.


Although it probably would include the Sorcerer being torn appart fast.

As outlined in previous posts, it's easy to keep the Sorcerer safe as long as someone else is willing to occupy the corner pocket and the sorcerer goes prone.


Also, I will argue that one character reacting faster than some but slower than others *is* part of the game's fiction, and a much-needed source of unpredictability. D&D would be horribly dull if we actually planned things during live sessions like we do in the challenges forum threads.

But it isn't unpredictable. If the paladin goes "first" before the cleric every round (because he actually goes last), he will go first every time. It's horribly predictable, and outside of a locked box scenario it makes kiting with Mobile feat too easy, among other things. But my biggest gripe is that there's no diegetic reason for things to be so predictable, round after round after round, and that predictability has too much tactical importance.

===========================


It's interesting to me because any one change (initiative, save, spell, crit, ...) can change so much. When I first devised this challenge, I thought is would be difficult to survive, but the hive mind has presented a few plausible solutions.

There have been a few suggestions that I can't quite figure out. It seems to me that a few of you have suggested that the Sorcerer can make multiple actions in one turn that I can't folow. Please include all the steps (metamagic etc) so we can learn the specifics (aka show your math, don't skip steps, 'cause some of us are playing catch up).

(A) It has surprised me how easily countered Fear is in this example - counter spell, calm emotions, spell breaker, ... it's more of an inconvenience than a game changer.

I'm beginning to think that a really nasty Op Att threat (shadow blade + Booming Blade) and a Hi AC w/ DODGE may be a great single enemy control tactic ...

So, what could we do better? What can we learn from all this?

(A) That's another artifact of the initiative order. If it were Cleric, Sorc, Yuan-ti #1, Yuan-ti #2, Paladin, Fear would be more dangerous even though the Yuan-ti are slower, because the Sorc couldn't Counterspell them both. And Cleric, Yuan-ti #1, Yuan-ti #2, Sorc, Paladin would be even more dangerous because there's more chance of hitting the sorc early enough to prevent it from casting any round #1 buffs or disables, plus the Yuan-ti could get in position to make opportunity attacks on the sorc. (Could still be countered by the Cleric casting Calm Emotions or Readying Cure Wounds.)

I'd encourage you to play out this same scenario with a different initiative order just to make the point: Paladin, Yuan-ti #1, Yuan-ti #2, Sorc, Cleric.

[da newt]

Max - please show how anyone could Kite 2 opponents in a 50x50 room with 40' movement and 10 reach (on one attack). I just can't visualize it.

[Valmark]

There have been a few suggestions that I can't quite figure out. It seems to me that a few of you have suggested that the Sorcerer can make multiple actions in one turn that I can't folow. Please include all the steps (metamagic etc) so we can learn the specifics (aka show your math, don't skip steps, 'cause some of us are playing catch up).



I think the sorcerer thing was about the fact that it can Counterspell both Yuan-Tis. Since they go between them the first Yuan-Ti Fears and gets Counterspelled, then it's the sorcerer's turn and they get back their Reaction, then second Yuan-Ti Fears and gets Counterspelled again.

[Fable Wright]

Let's see. For resource minimization?

Turn 1: Cleric casts Spirit Guardians, moves forward 30ft to bring Yuan-Ti 1 into range of the effect.

If Yuan-Ti 1 makes a Fear or dangerous Suggestion spell, Sorcerer counterspells. Otherwise, Cleric takes the hits.

Sorcerer then moves to 20ft behind the cleric and casts Sleet Storm, centered so that all of the room save for a 5ft corridor along the PCs' back edge and the corridor that the Cleric moved up in is now Difficult Terrain.

At this point, Yuan-ti goes. They might be proned, they might not, but they cannot meaningfully engage the Cleric or the Paladin this turn.

Paladin Dashes to position as close to/as far ahead of the Sorcerer as possible.

Turn 2: Cleric casts Sanctuary on self, Dodges.

Yuan-ti can't leave, between difficult terrain, prone, and Booming Blade + Warcaster from Arcana Cleric.

Sorcerer does Fire Bolt stuff. Possibly Quickened for more DPR? But honestly, we don't need DPR. Counterspells Fear if necessary.

Paladin moves to directly behind Cleric, begins hitting and Smiting with 10ft reach. and burning CD.

Turn 3+: Cleric Dodges, and if two Fear spells haven't been cast yet, casts Sanctuary on self or Sorcerer, depending on whether Booming Blade was used. (If it's on Sorcerer too, any party-targeting Fear spell will require two saving throws and need to get through a Paladin aura.) At this point, we settle into routine—Paladin dumps Smites into Yuan-ti 1 until it drops while Cleric keeps Paladin from taking retributive damage. Then repeat vs Tuan-Ti 2. Sorcerer probably Dodges when it's not in range of Yuan-ti, if it's under Sanctuary, or Firebolts if not; Disengages if in melee range.

[Nhorianscum]

It's interesting to me because any one change (initiative, save, spell, crit, ...) can change so much. When I first devised this challenge, I thought is would be difficult to survive, but the hive mind has presented a few plausible solutions.

There have been a few suggestions that I can't quite figure out. It seems to me that a few of you have suggested that the Sorcerer can make multiple actions in one turn that I can't folow. Please include all the steps (metamagic etc) so we can learn the specifics (aka show your math, don't skip steps, 'cause some of us are playing catch up).

It has surprised me how easily countered Fear is in this example - counter spell, calm emotions, spell breaker, ... it's more of an inconvenience than a game changer.

I'm beginning to think that a really nasty Op Att threat (shadow blade + Booming Blade) and a Hi AC w/ DODGE may be a great single enemy control tactic ...

And YES - if the opponent fights smart, it gets even harder. I would argue the Longbow w/ poison attack may be the YuanTi's nastiest option.

So, what could we do better? What can we learn from all this?

(Edited mine with an lazy version of the strat.)

Lesson here is that cleric, paladin, and sorc are really good in tier 2?

The fear round does force the party to burn resources and the fight is consuming almost all of the sorcerer and paladins daily spells.

[Unoriginal]

There have been a few suggestions that I can't quite figure out. It seems to me that a few of you have suggested that the Sorcerer can make multiple actions in one turn that I can't folow. Please include all the steps (metamagic etc) so we can learn the specifics (aka show your math, don't skip steps, 'cause some of us are playing catch up).

Probably Quicken Metamagic.



It has surprised me how easily countered Fear is in this example - counter spell, calm emotions, spell breaker, ... it's more of an inconvenience than a game changer.

Fear is situationally powerful, and this is not one of those situations, because there is no much room to run away and most of the potential targets are likely to resist it. Plus the fact that both the enemies have it can make it tactically redundant overall (although it does make it more likely to land).

If it was 3 Yuan-ti Malisons + one Abomination vs the three PCs in a 60ft radius arena it would be very different.



I'm beginning to think that a really nasty Op Att threat (shadow blade + Booming Blade) and a Hi AC w/ DODGE may be a great single enemy control tactic ...

In a restricted space, when action economy is on the side of the PCs? Sure.



So, what could we do better? What can we learn from all this?

I feel like if the Abominations survives that, they'd learn that sometime it is more important to target enemies on their strategic values than relatively to their round-by-round performance, as taking the time to destroy the Sorcerer (who both has high magic power but lower AC and HPs than the others) while enduring the others' attacks would promptly turn the fight in favor of the Abominable serpents.

[da newt]

For the Sorc there were a few suggestions of stuff like Fire Ball and twinned Fire Bolt, or Fire Ball + net attack (was there a quicken in there) ...

[Nhorianscum]

For the Sorc there were a few suggestions of stuff like Fire Ball and twinned Fire Bolt, or Fire Ball + net attack (was there a quicken in there) ...

Absolutely.

Went ahead and simplified the whole thing for clarity.

Sorry about that.

[Unoriginal]

But it wouldn't change the fact that pop-up healing vs. Sanctuary is dependent on initiative order.

In fact, I've run this combat multiple times, allowing the Yuan-ti to act differently if another action was clearly better, and it doesn't change very much.

[...]

But it isn't unpredictable. If the paladin goes "first" before the cleric every round (because he actually goes last), he will go first every time. It's horribly predictable, and outside of a locked box scenario it makes kiting with Mobile feat too easy, among other things. But my biggest gripe is that there's no diegetic reason for things to be so predictable, round after round after round, and that predictability has too much tactical importance.


This challenge isn't unpredictable because the initiative order is set.

If that happened in a D&D session with "vanilla PHB initiative", the initiative would be rolled, making the actual turn order unpredictable. The Cleric could end up with the save initiative as the Sorcerer, or one lower than the Paladin's, or any other outcome. The Abominations, the Sorcerer and the Cleric literally have the same initiative modifier, so it's only the die deciding who goes first.



As outlined in previous posts, it's easy to keep the Sorcerer safe as long as someone else is willing to occupy the corner pocket and the sorcerer goes prone.

The Abomination can Constrict the corner pocket protector and move them out of the way to have access to the (now prone) Sorcerer in melee. Not foolproof, but effective.

[Eldariel]

I feel like if the Abominations survives that, they'd learn that sometime it is more important to target enemies on their strategic values than relatively to their round-by-round performance, as taking the time to destroy the Sorcerer (who both has high magic power but lower AC and HPs than the others) while enduring the others' attacks would promptly turn the fight in favor of the Abominable serpents.

In this particular encounter though, the Abominations simply have no chance of doing that since the Cleric and the Paladin are too efficient at preventing it and the Sorc himself has a lot of "stay away from me"-power and indeed, sufficient defenses to take some potshots especially at Disadvantage. The abombs can't really afford to go through the frontline since they simply go down in a turn or two and simply don't have enough time to take down the Sorc if the PCs play strategically sound and the dice aren't extremely skewed.

[Unoriginal]

If you guys are interested, we could try doing this situation live.


I'd be more than happy to DM it (and I promise I'll make it faster than my previous orc scenario, although play-by-post D&D is slow still). If three people are interested in playing one of the PCs each, we could see how it goes.

[MaxWilson]

Max - please show how anyone could Kite 2 opponents in a 50x50 room with 40' movement and 10 reach (on one attack). I just can't visualize it.

As you can see from the diagrams I posted earlier, I didn't actually wind up kiting all that much. Kiting in this environment relies on either (1) Spirtual Guardians from the Dodging cleric to reduce enemy speed to 20' (I mostly gave this strategy up because it was more vital to protect the Sorcerer's pocket), or difficult terrain from a Web spell (but the Sorc is busy concentrating on Haste so that's not available), or (2) Shoving a Yuan-ti prone to eat up 20' of its movement in addition to gaining advantage on my attacks and giving it disadvantage on its opportunity attack.

#1 is also very much a DM-dependent thing (does the DM rule that the Yuan-ti stops dead in its tracks 10' away from the cleric, after it finishes moving completely into the "square", because it's moved 30' and now has only a 20' speed, or does it stop when it's 14.99' away (so effectively 15'), or does it just pay double movement costs for every foot it moves within the Spirit Guardians radius?) and I wound up not wanting to have to rely on DM rulings in this context. For this same reason I didn't rely on Spiritual Weapon possibly "taking up a square", which would let me create a pocket for the sorcerer without dedicating the cleric to it, and possibly position Spirit Guardians where it can do more good.

One move that I considered but didn't wind up using: use Careful Web to slow down Yuan-tis and create friendly terrain, while Paladin uses Misty Step to kite 60' from corner to corner.

https://i.postimg.cc/GpwB6nMG/Map.png (https://postimages.org/)

The paladin ought to drop prone at the end of his turn to ensure that the Yuan-tis have disadvantage on their next attacks against him. Hopefully next turn he can stand up and finish off one of the Yuan-tis, but if not, he can Misty Step again back into the Careful Web. I don't love this approach though--it's very resource-intensive for the Paladin, who isn't even a full caster.

Again, there are some DM rulings involved about difficult terrain and cube-tilting.

[Unoriginal]

As you can see from the diagrams I posted earlier, I didn't actually wind up kiting all that much. Kiting in this environment relies on either (1) Spirtual Guardians from the Dodging cleric to reduce enemy speed to 20' (I mostly gave this strategy up because it was more vital to protect the Sorcerer's pocket), or difficult terrain from a Web spell (but the Sorc is busy concentrating on Haste so that's not available), or (2) Shoving a Yuan-ti prone to eat up 20' of its movement in addition to gaining advantage on my attacks and giving it disadvantage on its opportunity attack.

#1 is also very much a DM-dependent thing (does the DM rule that the Yuan-ti stops dead in its tracks 10' away from the cleric, after it finishes moving completely into the "square", because it's moved 30' and now has only a 20' speed, or does it stop when it's 14.99' away (so effectively 15'), or does it just pay double movement costs for every foot it moves within the Spirit Guardians radius?) and I wound up not wanting to have to rely on DM rulings in this context. For this same reason I didn't rely on Spiritual Weapon possibly "taking up a square", which would let me create a pocket for the sorcerer without dedicating the cleric to it, and possibly position Spirit Guardians where it can do more good.

One move that I considered but didn't wind up using: use Careful Web to slow down Yuan-tis and create friendly terrain, while Paladin uses Misty Step to kite 60' from corner to corner.

[...]

The paladin ought to drop prone at the end of his turn to ensure that the Yuan-tis have disadvantage on their next attacks against him. Hopefully next turn he can stand up and finish off one of the Yuan-tis, but if not, he can Misty Step again back into the Careful Web. I don't love this approach though--it's very resource-intensive for the Paladin, who isn't even a full caster.

Again, there are some DM rulings involved about difficult terrain and cube-tilting.

Something I don't understand here: what's preventing the Abomination from using Constrict on the Sorcerer, if the PCs are disposed like that?

[MaxWilson]

Something I don't understand here: what's preventing the Abomination from using Constrict on the Sorcerer, if the PCs are disposed like that?

Nothing, but since the sorc is prone and more than 5' away, Constrict attack is at disadvantage, hits only 9% of the time after Shield.

[Frogreaver]

Major image might could be used to make a tactical choke point.

[MaxWilson]

Major image might could be used to make a tactical choke point.

What kind of illusion do you have in mind that wouldn't result in the Yuan-ti touching the image and therefore revealing the illusion?

[Unoriginal]

What kind of illusion do you have in mind that wouldn't result in the Yuan-ti touching the image and therefore revealing the illusion?

Barbed wire?

[MaxWilson]

Barbed wire?

Placed where and in what shape?

The problem I foresee is that unless the benefit to the players of the Yuan-ti avoiding the barbed wire is very small, the Yuan-ti is better off simply accepting the minor damage (2d4?) it can expect from crashing through barbed wire--which of course turns out to actually be zero damage. Even if you made it an apparent solid Wall of Fire, I'm not sure you'd be safe; I'd expect at least one attempt from each Yuan-ti to crash through a wall of fire (taking ~22 damage out of 127 HP), Constrict a PC, and pull them out through the flames (~22 damage to the PC).

The way I'd run it is with oracle dice: roll d6, "Does this Yuan-ti attempt to crash through this Wall of Fire", 1=No, and..., 2=No, 3=No, but..., 4=Yes, but..., 5=Yes, 6=Yes, and..., with advantage for "likely" outcomes and disadvantage for "unlikely" outcomes. I'd call it likely if the Yuan-ti is above 100 HP, unlikely if it's below 50 HP, otherwise the Yuan-ti will attempt to fire arrows blindly at the sorcerer whom it knows is the caster of the ostensible Wall of Fire. For barbed wire inflicting ~2d4 I wouldn't even roll dice, that's just a straight-up yes unless there are other, caltrop-like effects.

E.g. a Yuan-ti with full HP would roll d6 with advantage. If I got 2, 4, that means I'd take the 4, which is Yes, but..., which I'd interpret as, hmmmm. "A Yuan-ti who was reluctant to go through the flames but did it anyway will probably not want to cross through it twice, if possible, so he's probably planning to just cross once and remain on the other side instead of pulling a PC out through the flames with him, because then he might have to go through it again after that PC is dead." In this case there's not much difference between 4-6 because the Wall of Fire isn't real.

[da newt]

Max - got it, with a SG or Web to create difficult terrain, then there is room to Kite enough that the YT will be forced to burn a DASH action to get into Melee. Then the PC will need to teleport or disengage to run or risk a Constrict w/ grapple and restrict, but that would cost an action or spell slot and there are 3 juicy targets, and they have long bows ...

How does your 20' WEB cube become 20X30? Are you trying 45 degree rotation on one axis ...


I'm up for a live play by play if you can find others. I'd be most comfy playing the Pali, I could Cleric, but I'm not Sorcerer savvy.

Roll20 or ?

It's also interesting that in our rolls every CONSTRICT missed. I'd expect one lucky constrict could make a big difference.

[MaxWilson]

Max - got it, with a SG or Web to create difficult terrain, then there is room to Kite enough that the YT will be forced to burn a DASH action to get into Melee. Then the PC will need to teleport or disengage to run or risk a Constrict w/ grapple and restrict, but that would cost an action or spell slot and there are 3 juicy targets, and they have long bows ...

How does your 20' WEB cube become 20X30? Are you trying 45 degree rotation on one axis ...

Yes, through rotation, and I misremembered--it should have been a 20' x 28' cube, not 20' x 30'. I'm not sure if that extra 2' really matters though--DM judgment needed. I believe the tactic still works with a 20' x 20' area too, but I haven't checked.


I'm up for a live play by play if you can find others. I'd be most comfy playing the Pali, I could Cleric, but I'm not Sorcerer savvy.

Roll20 or ?

It's also interesting that in our rolls every CONSTRICT missed. I'd expect one lucky constrict could make a big difference.

Yes, especially if it comes from Yuan-ti #1 instead of #2. Under certain circumstances it makes sense for the sorc to leave the pocket and grapple the Paladin to drag him out of the Constrict (instead of Fireballilng), so he can get his Dodge bonus back instead of a Restrained penalty. Having the cleric Sanctuary also helps some, depending on where the Paladin and the Cleric stand.

I think I'm not up for a live play of this particular scenario because it's so simplistic that I don't feel live play is needed--this thread worked pretty well already. I'm open to the idea of live play for scenarios that are analytically complex, e.g. enemy spellcasters as well as friendly ones, maybe some custom builds, opportunities for hiding and use of total/partial cover. It's hard to find time though.

Edit: I did find this nifty online tool for shared whiteboards though. I would totally use this for running these tactical scenarios: https://awwapp.com/

[da newt]

I decided to re-run this scenario but remove the YuanTi heuristic of casting FEAR (assume YuanTi would realize the PC caster would counterspell).

Then this happened:
Cleric moves up, BA casts SpW attacks HIT for 8 dam, takes DODGE action.
YT #1 moves into melee w/ Cleric, and get's lucky HIT to constrict 10 dam and Cleric is restrained, and therefor cannot DODGE so attack w/ ADV, HIT/HIT for 28 dam. Cleric is good and bloody and restrained.

Now what?
Best I could come up w/ was HEIGHTEN SUGGESTION on YT#1 (60%), but if it saves ... maybe Gaseous Form. W/ YT #2 up next it could very well roll up to YT #1 and bite, scim, scim the restrained Cleric.

[Nhorianscum]

I decided to re-run this scenario but remove the YuanTi heuristic of casting FEAR (assume YuanTi would realize the PC caster would counterspell).

Then this happened:
Cleric moves up, BA casts SpW attacks HIT for 8 dam, takes DODGE action.
YT #1 moves into melee w/ Cleric, and get's lucky HIT to constrict 10 dam and Cleric is restrained, and therefor cannot DODGE so attack w/ ADV, HIT/HIT for 28 dam. Cleric is good and bloody and restrained.

Now what?
Best I could come up w/ was HEIGHTEN SUGGESTION on YT#1 (60%), but if it saves ... maybe Gaseous Form. W/ YT #2 up next it could very well roll up to YT #1 and bite, scim, scim the restrained Cleric.

Sorc puts a hand on the cleric and casts a quickened thunder step to the paladin, he then takes the dodge action.

YT2 can do whatever.

(I'm using a list of shield, suggestion, scorching ray, thunder step, fireball, sleet storm, haste for the sorc)

Paladin lays on hands and vows YT1, it then moves up to support the clerics next move.

Cleric casts SG and regrets rushing without SG+dodge up, prays it can survive 1 round, moves up to block off the sorc and attacks with SW.

Past this fight resumes as normal (hopefully)

[da newt]

Good call on Thunder Step to extricate the cleric. Now to deal with both YT ...

[Nhorianscum]

Good call on Thunder Step to extricate the cleric. Now to deal with both YT ...

Up to you, sorc is in the pocket and the world is his rocky thing with a slimy bit of meat in the middle.

Cleric and paladin are just in butt clench mode.

[MaxWilson]

I decided to re-run this scenario but remove the YuanTi heuristic of casting FEAR (assume YuanTi would realize the PC caster would counterspell).

Then this happened:
Cleric moves up, BA casts SpW attacks HIT for 8 dam, takes DODGE action.
YT #1 moves into melee w/ Cleric, and get's lucky HIT to constrict 10 dam and Cleric is restrained, and therefor cannot DODGE so attack w/ ADV, HIT/HIT for 28 dam. Cleric is good and bloody and restrained.

Now what?
Best I could come up w/ was HEIGHTEN SUGGESTION on YT#1 (60%), but if it saves ... maybe Gaseous Form. W/ YT #2 up next it could very well roll up to YT #1 and bite, scim, scim the restrained Cleric.

Quickened Fireball + Dodge seems like a good bet here at making the sorc the top priority target, if you can do it without hitting the cleric (depends on where the cleric is standing). Heightened Suggestion on Yuan-ti #2 is also not a terrible idea. You might also be able to position yourself between Yuan-ti #2 and the cleric so it can't move into range (again, depends on positioning), which is another reason to like Quickened + Dodge over Heightened.

The Paladin may be able to help out via Wrathful Smite + Divine Smite against Yuan-ti #1 to keep it from making a second round of attacks on the cleric.

Ultimately it's a dice game and the odds are already stacked against you by the initial positioning (50' x 50' cage fight with no RP allowed, sorc in exposed position), smaller-than-usual party size and weak PC builds (like Dragon Sorc), so... when you get unlucky enough, sometimes you lose. But I think you are not as close to losing yet as you feel you are, just becaues the cleric got restrained and took heavy damage.

[Nhorianscum]

weak PC builds (like Dragon Sorc)

Sir please, let's not awaken the dreaded eater of threads "the sorc debate".

This is a safe place.

[da newt]

For my next challenge I'm thinking lvl 6 EK, WIZ, and Druid vs 4 CR3 and 2 CR2 ... More lesser badguys.



Without rescuing the Cleric, I'm thinking he's 90% dead. Even with Fireball and a failed save (unlikely) and no attacks from YT#2, the Pali and cleric will need to do 91 hp damage on their turns to kill it before it kills the cleric on it's turn...

I think best bet for the Pali is to attack x3 without GWM and dump max divine smites, but even then it averages to only 40 hp. Then Sp W and SG ... dead cleric. Or Cleric takes action to break grapple (assume Acrobatics Prof = +5, vs +4 St so 55% chance of success) and hope YT#1 attacks the Pali ...

[Nhorianscum]

For my next challenge I'm thinking lvl 6 EK, WIZ, and Druid vs 4 CR3 and 2 CR2 ... More lesser badguys.



Without rescuing the Cleric, I'm thinking he's 90% dead. Even with Fireball and a failed save (unlikely) and no attacks from YT#2, the Pali and cleric will need to do 91 hp damage on their turns to kill it before it kills the cleric on it's turn...

I think best bet for the Pali is to attack x3 without GWM and dump max divine smites, but even then it averages to only 40 hp. Then Sp W and SG ... dead cleric. Or Cleric takes action to break grapple (assume Acrobatics Prof = +5, vs +4 St so 55% chance of success) and hope YT#1 attacks the Pali ...

I really enjoyed this one.

Oh goody a wiz, my turn to cry about the arcane caster choice.

[da newt]

I do like chewing on these scenarios - I don't know if anyone else likes them, but I think I'm learning stuff so I'll keep at it.

The caster's decision tree has sooo many options, it can be complicated. As much as some have wanked about the Draconic Sorcerer, Metamagic seems to have been very handy ...

Overall, it seems like the casters dictate the success / failure and the martials are mostly support / enablers.

[Asisreo1]

Lets see what we can learn. Your objective is to defeat the enemy in combat using tactics that give you the best chance to succeed while expending the fewest resources. For simplicity, this is a locked room duel to the death, and the odds are not in your favor.

What will you do and especially WHY?

Your opponent:
TWO Yuan-Ti Abominations (CR 7, MM pg 308), each will cast fear if they can target 2 or more at the first opportunity, otherwise they will constrict then bite then scimitar every round. They will target who ever is effecting them the most. If they cannot attack w/ melee they will use their long bows.

Your Team:
lvl 6 Arcana Cleric:
V human, War Caster, 1/2 plate, shield, dagger, Lt Xbow, AC 19, 51 hp, 10 ST, 14 DX, 16 CON, 10 IN, 18 WI, 10 CH

lvl 6 Draconic Sorcerer:
V Human, War Caster, AC 15, 50 hp, 10 ST, 14 DX, 16 CO, 10 IN, 10 WI, 18 CH

lvl 6 Vengance Paladin:
V Human, PAM, GWM, Glaive, Plate, AC 18, 52 hp, 16 ST, 10 DX, 14 CON, 10 IN, 10 WI, 16 CH

The room is 50'x50' square, 25' ceiling, the walls are blank, the only feature in the room is a center 5'x5' pillar. At start - The YuanTi are each in the far corners, your Pali and Cleric are in the near corners with the Sorc along the wall between them.

Initiative order: Cleric, YuanTi 1, Sorc, YuanTi 2, Pali

You have no magic weapons, you can trade out gear if you like, you can pick any spells/proff/class options.
Before I bring up my solution, are material components good to have?

[da newt]

Yes - it is good to have material components if you wish to cast a spell that requires them. Also - yes you can start the scenario with any components you wish.

[MaxWilson]

For my next challenge I'm thinking lvl 6 EK, WIZ, and Druid vs 4 CR3 and 2 CR2 ... More lesser badguys.

Without rescuing the Cleric, I'm thinking he's 90% dead. Even with Fireball and a failed save (unlikely) and no attacks from YT#2, the Pali and cleric will need to do 91 hp damage on their turns to kill it before it kills the cleric on it's turn...

I think best bet for the Pali is to attack x3 without GWM and dump max divine smites, but even then it averages to only 40 hp. Then Sp W and SG ... dead cleric. Or Cleric takes action to break grapple (assume Acrobatics Prof = +5, vs +4 St so 55% chance of success) and hope YT#1 attacks the Pali ...

You don't need to kill the cleric, according to the terms of the thread--you just need to do enough damage to make the Yuan-ti switch targets. Since the cleric presumably did only ~10 HP with Spiritual Weapon, casting a Fireball for ~18 HP even on a successful save ought to make the Yuan-tis switch targets, according to the OP anyway.

If the Yuan-ti are the type to finish off obviously-vulnerable prey then something like that Quickened Thunder Step + Dodge, Heightened Hypnotic Pattern is a better bet. I personally have never taken Thunder Step, but then I've never played an unarmored Dragon Sorc either--maybe I would if I had, at least until Dimension Door came online. :-P Lightning Lure (+Quickened Lightning Lure?) on the Cleric also has a fair-to-moderate chance of working since you'll have advantage on your attack. It increases to excellent if the DM rules the cleric can choose to be hit, or at least choose to have an effective Dex 1 with no shield (AC 13 + no advantage). Once the cleric is no longer grappled his Dodge starts working again, unless the DM rules that "you lose this benefit [of Dodge] if... your speed drops to zero" still applies once your speed is nonzero.


I do like chewing on these scenarios - I don't know if anyone else likes them, but I think I'm learning stuff so I'll keep at it.

The caster's decision tree has sooo many options, it can be complicated. As much as some have wanked about the Draconic Sorcerer, Metamagic seems to have been very handy ...

Overall, it seems like the casters dictate the success / failure and the martials are mostly support / enablers.

Metamagic is on any sorc though. E.g. a Shadow Sorc would add a Shadow Hound that cancels out Magic Resistance while also tanking. A Wild Sorc would have advantage vs. Fear (Tides of Chaos) plus some limited ability to manipulate initiative and/or saving throws (Bend Luck). A Divine Soul could Twin Sanctuary to protect himself and a damaged cleric, as well as having a nice saving throw bonus. The Dragon Sorc... gets a small damage bonus and saves a spell slot on Mage Armor, plus some extra HP.

Casters do have a big impact on tactical outcomes (more room to make things go right or horribly wrong), but that's magnified even more than usual in this thread and the stone giant thread because you picked two scenarios scenarios where the martials are outnumbered by casters and/or pre-committed to certain courses of action (Reckless Barbarian will charge the stone giants--watch how the scenario transforms when you can make the Barbarian do something less crazy! it can turn into a long-range duel with the giants from behind Mold Earth fortifications). We've also learned some useful things that can be done regardless of spells (Dodging and creating a corner pocket to protect the sorc's concentration) or on top of spells (throwing nets). Also, these martials are pretty simplistic.

Tell you what, I'll think it over and post a martial-oriented scenario in a bit. Something where you've got three Fighters and a Druid, or something like that, instead of two casters and a Paladin.

[Nhorianscum]

@Max

Looking forward to your encounter my dude!

That said...

Does our sorc really care about anything sans roughly +16 dpr and not being in ORKO range in this setup as we're allowed to play something of an ur-sorc picking and choosing exactly the spells and metamagic we need?

A genuine question as sans bend luck we can replicate what we need here while keeping that insurance policy. (Keeping in mind that we have no prebuffs at all here)

(It seems unfair to call our sorc weak when it's been the all star in both threads this far in a party with the big boys of tier 2, namely paladin, cleric, and druid. DS is DS and is in a class of it's own but I genuinely don't feel like draconic falls behind the other subs and may be the best tier 1 sub.)