level 9 potions and the build to build them

[OGDojo]

Now.. you would think that making 9th level potions would be super difficult and super annoying but on the contrary it just requires 3 books, 1 class, and 2 prestige classes

now in D&D 3.5 there is a hard cap to the number of potions you can brew a day 1... just 1... you can take any number of feats to reduce the time or reduce the cost but your limited to 1 in D&D 3.5 (3 in pathfinder)
my quest began when i was looking for other Alchemist classes in 3.5 than just the bog standard wizard and some creative feats. so i delved into some splash books and found in the Magic of Faerun there is a "Master Alchemist" prestige class
this class in 10 levels allows you to brew up to 4 potions a day (5 for pathfinder) and allows you to make level 9 potions, and as people so helpfully pointed out it only takes 1 day to build a potion regardless of cost.
then i was curious what else i could find that would be helpful since you cant take "Master Alchemist" until at least level 7 and thought "Nah im sure i can find something better and i did in Magic of Eberron called the "Alchemist Savant" Prestige class.
this prestige class can be started at level 5 pretty easily and gives you another 2 extra potions per day by level 10, which you can then take Master alchemist and by level 20 can make 6 (3.5) to 8 (pathfinder) potions in 1 day and the max level
potion you can brew is level 9. hope this helps.

and here's a breakdown
levels 1-5 Wizard Or Archivist (PHB) (Heros of Horror)
Levels 6-10 Alchemist Savant (Magic of Eberron)
Levels 11-20 Master Alchemist (Magic of Fae'run)

Hope you enjoy this build
*Dm's Note, this means you can start putting 9th level potions into your campaigns without feeling like your cheating, your welcome*
*Dm's Note, the two prestige classes wording on the number of potions limit per day actually sets them at a max of 4 per day and doesnt actually increase them, however you can DM Rule that they actually add to the cap not just raise the cap to a specified number. we have implemented that change and see no issues with it. basically "if you want to you can but its not necessary" because 4 potions a day is still pretty good. but in my personal opinion (And the opinion of a few other DMs i know) having a 6 potion limit isn't game breaking*

[Darrin]

There are other ways to create potions for any spell level:


Gemma's Cauldron (Expedition to Undermountain) can convert any scroll into a potion. It's not clear from the text if the typical restrictions on potions still apply.
Craft Skull Talisman (Frostburn) is a thing.
You don't even have to go out of Core. Craft Wondrous Item can make single-use items up to any level. You can call them "elixirs" or "pills" or whatever you like.

[Thurbane]

Archivist makes a decent base as well, since it (arguably) can access more spells. You'd need Southern Magician or similar to qualify for Alchemist Savant though.

[Crake]

the only issue is that it will take more than a day to build a 9th level potion

I'm not sure what you mean with this?

in 3.5 a potion takes 1 day to brew, regardless of it's base price. If the potion somehow cost 30,000gp, it would still be brewed in 1 day.

Reading alchemist savant, it seems like it wouldn't actually stack with master alchemist. Both are changing the number of potions you can brew per day, not increasing it by a set amount. Master alchemist seems to be the superior option though, as it doesn't impose any sort of market price limitation like alchemist savant does, so with master alchemist, you could brew 4 potions in a day, regardless of the price of each potion.

[sreservoir]

Gemma's Cauldron (Expedition to Undermountain) can convert any scroll into a potion. It's not clear from the text if the typical restrictions on potions still apply.

While we're at it, scrolls in treasure can contain multiple spells (though it's not clear that that you can create them), and Gremma's Cauldron isn't exactly clear what happens if you convert a scroll with more than one spell to a potion, either...

[OGDojo]

I'm not sure what you mean with this?

in 3.5 a potion takes 1 day to brew, regardless of it's base price. If the potion somehow cost 30,000gp, it would still be brewed in 1 day.

Reading alchemist savant, it seems like it wouldn't actually stack with master alchemist. Both are changing the number of potions you can brew per day, not increasing it by a set amount. Master alchemist seems to be the superior option though, as it doesn't impose any sort of market price limitation like alchemist savant does, so with master alchemist, you could brew 4 potions in a day, regardless of the price of each potion.

well to start with, 3.5 potion brewing its 1 potion as long as it costs 1000 gp or less, if you brew a potion thats worth 2000 gp it WILL take longer than a day. i didnt discover this until just before working on this build.
alchemist savant and Master alchemist change the number of potions per day that you can craft but almost every DM that i have talked to has confirmed that it wouldn't be gamebreaking or difficult to deal with if it increased the number instead of just changed it. i think most DMs would approve of it Increasing the Number of potions per day instead of just changing it.

Its dependent on the DM but as long as they OK it i see no reason that you cant build 6-8 potions a day as long as the total cost is less than 1000 gp (which it actually states in Alchemist savant and Master Alchemist that to gain the extra potion's a day that you need to keep the total market value of them UNDER 1000 gp)


There are other ways to create potions for any spell level:


Gemma's Cauldron (Expedition to Undermountain) can convert any scroll into a potion. It's not clear from the text if the typical restrictions on potions still apply.
Craft Skull Talisman (Frostburn) is a thing.
You don't even have to go out of Core. Craft Wondrous Item can make single-use items up to any level. You can call them "elixirs" or "pills" or whatever you like.


These are some awesome ideas, never even heard of craft skull talisman. but this also gives players a cool class idea that they can build for new campaigns. it was a thought project that i worked on and found that it can be very viable as a build


Archivist makes a decent base as well, since it (arguably) can access more spells. You'd need Southern Magician or similar to qualify for Alchemist Savant though.

Agreed, Archivist is one of my favorite classes to do this kind of stuff with but i went with wizard because people tend to use base classes instead of extended classes for these types of builds, i mean technically you can do it with a factotum if you have the right feats and skills selected

[sreservoir]

well to start with, 3.5 potion brewing its 1 potion as long as it costs 1000 gp or less, if you brew a potion thats worth 2000 gp it WILL take longer than a day. i didnt discover this until just before working on this build.

It doesn't. Brewing a potion explicitly always takes one day.


You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures. Brewing a potion takes one day. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level. The base price of a potion is its spell level × its caster level × 50 gp. To brew a potion, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one half this base price.


The creator also needs a fairly quiet, comfortable, and well-lit place in which to work. Any place suitable for preparing spells is suitable for making items. Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew. The character must spend the gold and XP at the beginning of the construction process.


If casting the spell would reduce the caster’s XP total, he pays the XP cost upon beginning the brew in addition to the XP cost for making the potion itself. Material components are consumed when he begins working, but a focus is not. (A focus used in brewing a potion can be reused.) The act of brewing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from his currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.) Brewing a potion requires one day.

Other magic items take one day per 1000 gp, yes, but potions are explicitly an exception.

[Crake]

well to start with, 3.5 potion brewing its 1 potion as long as it costs 1000 gp or less, if you brew a potion thats worth 2000 gp it WILL take longer than a day. i didnt discover this until just before working on this build.
alchemist savant and Master alchemist change the number of potions per day that you can craft but almost every DM that i have talked to has confirmed that it wouldn't be gamebreaking or difficult to deal with if it increased the number instead of just changed it. i think most DMs would approve of it Increasing the Number of potions per day instead of just changing it.

Its dependent on the DM but as long as they OK it i see no reason that you cant build 6-8 potions a day as long as the total cost is less than 1000 gp (which it actually states in Alchemist savant and Master Alchemist that to gain the extra potion's a day that you need to keep the total market value of them UNDER 1000 gp)

Can you tell me where you discovered this from? Because as noted immediately after your post, there are several sources citing that brewing a potion takes only a single day, regardless of cost. It is only in alchemist savant that a 1000gp limit is applied, and only while brewing multiple potions. Which, as I noted, doesn't stack with master alchemist, because they both set a specific limit on the number of potions you can brew per day, neither one says "you can brew an additional potion per day" they both say "you can brew X number of potions per day", as such, it's like saying something that makes you go large and something that makes you go huge stack to make you go gargantuan. It only works if at least one of them increases the limit, rather than sets the limit.

[OGDojo]

It doesn't. Brewing a potion explicitly always takes one day.







Other magic items take one day per 1000 gp, yes, but potions are explicitly an exception.

Well that just makes this build better than i expected. cuz it means that on long journeys i can spend 8 hours of those days preparing 9th level potions meaning on a long journey i can have 7-30 9th level potions depending on the starting money i use to buy materials and things. i apparently assumed something while i was reading the two Prestige classes.

[OGDojo]

Can you tell me where you discovered this from? Because as noted immediately after your post, there are several sources citing that brewing a potion takes only a single day, regardless of cost. It is only in alchemist savant that a 1000gp limit is applied, and only while brewing multiple potions. Which, as I noted, doesn't stack with master alchemist, because they both set a specific limit on the number of potions you can brew per day, neither one says "you can brew an additional potion per day" they both say "you can brew X number of potions per day", as such, it's like saying something that makes you go large and something that makes you go huge stack to make you go gargantuan. It only works if at least one of them increases the limit, rather than sets the limit.

and this is why i dont like posting my builds on here because everyone here are puritans that cant handle a little homebrew or a little changing of the rules, your all rules lawyers, a decent DM would allow it. as i said i have gotten the okay from a few dms in my area that they would allow it cuz at most im building 2 level 2 potions and 2 level 3s in a day, its not like im building 8 level 9 potions in a single day. its not game breaking, in fact its a little overkill unless your trying to build a bunch of level 1 potions in a day.

the way we accept that these class abilities work is not game breaking, in fact its probably the least broken thing in the game.

i get it, the way its worded is that at max ill get 4 potions a day, and honestly i probably wont even use that limit but a skilled alchemist should be able to make 6 potions a day without any issues or 8 if your building it in pathfinder. and plus its a difference of 2 potions a day its no more broken than building an infinite wand of cure light wounds or a bow of true strike and plus this isnt what the topic was suppose to do, it was suppose to show off two prestige classes that work well together and can be used to implement 9th level potions (and NPCs that can brew them) into the game as ACTUAL ALCHEMISTS not just a wizard that dabbles in 3rd level potion brewing.

but if it makes you feel better i put an extra *DMs Note* that corrects the misunderstanding of the 6-8 potions back down to a hard 4 with a DMs discretion that it can be 6-8 because house rules are a thing

[gijoemike]

I would like to think I am a decent GM. My players haven't revolted.

What is the spirit of the rule that a potion takes 1 day no more no less? The op reads it as a boon. But in general potions are limited to lvl 3 and caster level 5. That means a max level potion purchase price is 375 gp, which is no where close to a cap of 1000. In fact, using the regular item creation rules ANYONE should be able to do 3 to 4 potions a day. The intent of this rule was to LIMIT players beyond the limits of standard magic item creation.

The prestige classes in question allow one to circumvent the silly requirement of 1 potion = 1 day. I would rule at my table the cap would be 6 potions are able to be worked on in a day but there would be a 1000 gp limit so that it follows suit with the rest of the magic item rules and the clause in the 1 prestige class. Removing one off/special snowflake rules is normally a good thing. That potion of Shapechange will take 4 days to brew. But on the 4th day you could also brew up a second level potion.


That is 3 lvl 1, a lvl 2, and lvl 3 every day.

Or a 5th level every 2 days with 2 lvl 3 on that second day too.

[Silly Name]

Well that just makes this build better than i expected. cuz it means that on long journeys i can spend 8 hours of those days preparing 9th level potions meaning on a long journey i can have 7-30 9th level potions depending on the starting money i use to buy materials and things. i apparently assumed something while i was reading the two Prestige classes.

This hinges on having a suitable place to brew potions around at all times, which while definitely doable (maybe you travel by airship and have your lab in the hull) may not always be possible.

Travelling is normally incompatible with crafting because travelling implies you're on the move, you don't have the leisure to sit down and mix alchemical reagents while riding on horseback at the same time. You'd explicitly need a mode of movement where you're a passenger and have enough space to work (again, an airship is probably the best option, while a cramped carriage probably doesn't satisfy your needs).

[OGDojo]

This hinges on having a suitable place to brew potions around at all times, which while definitely doable (maybe you travel by airship and have your lab in the hull) may not always be possible.

Travelling is normally incompatible with crafting because travelling implies you're on the move, you don't have the leisure to sit down and mix alchemical reagents while riding on horseback at the same time. You'd explicitly need a mode of movement where you're a passenger and have enough space to work (again, an airship is probably the best option, while a cramped carriage probably doesn't satisfy your needs).

Actually from what me and my DM have found, a days travel is 8 hours (technically) our DM waives that because its dumb, normal humans can easily (well not easily) but can walk 16 hours without much issue as long as they pace themselves. and as long as they get a long (8 hour) Rest, so if you go by standard travel rules, you get 8 hours of travel, 8 hours of down time and 8 hours of sleep. spellcasters (with a few exceptions) take 1 hour after an 8 hour rest to regain spell slots. giving you 7 hours of down time after travel (you may also wanna take an hour for tearing down and setting up camp) leaving you 6 hours of down time each day to make potions. so in 6 hours you should be able to set up a temp lab and begin brewing :) however if your DM allows it you can make a wagon and spend some extra cash on better shocks and shelving and a hard top for an extra... say 200 gp to customize it the way you want (and remember you'll need to wait the 3-10 extra days depending on customizations) and you have a portable storage and brewing center. and at higher levels you can even do things like Mordakin's pop up fortress or some other spell that gives you a personal hut, Leomunds tiny hut, that you can attach to a door on the back of a wagon allowing you to brew your potions AND travel at the same time. but yeah traveling and brewing a potion isnt that hard :smallsmile:

[OGDojo]

I would like to think I am a decent GM. My players haven't revolted.

What is the spirit of the rule that a potion takes 1 day no more no less? The op reads it as a boon. But in general potions are limited to lvl 3 and caster level 5. That means a max level potion purchase price is 375 gp, which is no where close to a cap of 1000. In fact, using the regular item creation rules ANYONE should be able to do 3 to 4 potions a day. The intent of this rule was to LIMIT players beyond the limits of standard magic item creation.

The prestige classes in question allow one to circumvent the silly requirement of 1 potion = 1 day. I would rule at my table the cap would be 6 potions are able to be worked on in a day but there would be a 1000 gp limit so that it follows suit with the rest of the magic item rules and the clause in the 1 prestige class. Removing one off/special snowflake rules is normally a good thing. That potion of Shapechange will take 4 days to brew. But on the 4th day you could also brew up a second level potion.


That is 3 lvl 1, a lvl 2, and lvl 3 every day.

Or a 5th level every 2 days with 2 lvl 3 on that second day too.

this was actually what i was trying to convey, a decent DM wouldn't see 6 potions as game breaking especially since you still need to spend the gold and resources to make them. especially since this would be the only way to get 6 potions a day and that you literally have to dip into two prestige classes to do it... AND your basically doing everything to become a master alchemist that brews potions. i mean you still get your spells but your main focus would be your potions and your spells would be a secondary ability that you use only if your potions run out.

[rrwoods]

everyone here are puritans that cant handle a little homebrew or a little changing of the rules, your all rules lawyers, a decent DM would allow it

This is a pretty extreme (but not uncommon) viewpoint about how people on this forum talk to each other. I don't think it's accurate, but I think it comes about because it is accurate about maybe a few people and because theoretical optimization is how some people "play" D&D 3.5.

However, the more broadly applicable perspective is that most people here assume you are talking about rules-as-written unless you say otherwise. Most of the time I've seen someone mention "in this game, my DM says things work this way instead", that assumption is carried forward in the thread and everyone understands those are the rules now. (Sometimes, when popular opinion is that the DM has changed something thanks to a misunderstanding of its consequences, a discussion of those consequences follows. In my experience this isn't the norm.)

It's not that we "can't handle a little homebrew"; but if you're homebrewing something and don't tell us, we can't possibly know the difference between that and having misunderstood a rule.

[Silly Name]

As someone who has gone on long treks, lasting weeks, I have to seriously doubt your DM's "findings". 16 hours of walking, with a full backpack, plus roads not being always straight and perfectly paved mixed with weather not always being nice and calm, and the fact that most people don't like travelling at night/in the dark, and that unless you're doing a forced march you're likely to take regular short stops to avoid fatiguing yourself, plus time to set and tear down camp and eat... The 8-hours long travel makes sense for when you go on foot (can't speak for horseback, but you probably don't want to be riding for 16 hours a day unless you enjoy bleeding from your butt).

Walking for 16 hours isn't something you do unless forced. Possible, probably, but absolutely outside the norm, and not something you can do for many days on end without severely fatiguing yourself. On a good day an average person would be able to push themselves to maybe ten hours, but there are so many variables when calculating how much time a real trek takes that you'd have to craft a way more in-depth subsystem than what 3.5 offers to properly represent all nuances of travel on foot in a medieval world.

But, yes, your example carriage would be a decent way to obviate the issue of crafting while travelling, and obviously at higher levels it gets pretty easy to have a working spot even while travelling (of course, at higher levels you're also likely to be teleporting to your destination rather than taking to the road).

[OGDojo]

As someone who has gone on long treks, lasting weeks, I have to seriously doubt your DM's "findings". 16 hours of walking, with a full backpack, plus roads not being always straight and perfectly paved mixed with weather not always being nice and calm, and the fact that most people don't like travelling at night/in the dark, and that unless you're doing a forced march you're likely to take regular short stops to avoid fatiguing yourself, plus time to set and tear down camp and eat... The 8-hours long travel makes sense for when you go on foot (can't speak for horseback, but you probably don't want to be riding for 16 hours a day unless you enjoy bleeding from your butt).

Walking for 16 hours isn't something you do unless forced. Possible, probably, but absolutely outside the norm, and not something you can do for many days on end without severely fatiguing yourself. On a good day an average person would be able to push themselves to maybe ten hours, but there are so many variables when calculating how much time a real trek takes that you'd have to craft a way more in-depth subsystem than what 3.5 offers to properly represent all nuances of travel on foot in a medieval world.

But, yes, your example carriage would be a decent way to obviate the issue of crafting while travelling, and obviously at higher levels it gets pretty easy to have a working spot even while travelling (of course, at higher levels you're also likely to be teleporting to your destination rather than taking to the road).

well the findings was for the 8 hour travel time. it states in the book that 16 hours is a forced march and there are issues with doing it but traveling 8 hours with 8 hours of down time and 8 hours of sleep is (from what we can tell) a by the book kind of thing. which is why when traveling distance for a day on a map you generally base it on 8 hour travel time (or at least we do when it becomes relevant) and honestly its more a 12 hour travel time for us because we set up a 3 point watch so each character gets 8 hours of sleep even if it is interrupted and most of the time we have someone who doesn't have to sleep that can keep watch all night as well (they generally have a ring of Sustanance or something like it.)

[Crake]

and this is why i dont like posting my builds on here because everyone here are puritans that cant handle a little homebrew or a little changing of the rules, your all rules lawyers, a decent DM would allow it.

It's fine to use homebrew or adjusting the rules, nobody here has any problem with that, but what is a "decent DM" is entirely subjective, and people prefer discussing things objectively on forums, to avoid misunderstandings or subjective disputes. As long as you mention it beforehand, rather than claiming it to be the way the rules are written, nobody will have issue with it, as long as people know beforehand that they need to ask their DM about it.

[sreservoir]

I would like to think I am a decent GM. My players haven't revolted.

What is the spirit of the rule that a potion takes 1 day no more no less? The op reads it as a boon. But in general potions are limited to lvl 3 and caster level 5. That means a max level potion purchase price is 375 gp, which is no where close to a cap of 1000. In fact, using the regular item creation rules ANYONE should be able to do 3 to 4 potions a day. The intent of this rule was to LIMIT players beyond the limits of standard magic item creation.

The prestige classes in question allow one to circumvent the silly requirement of 1 potion = 1 day. I would rule at my table the cap would be 6 potions are able to be worked on in a day but there would be a 1000 gp limit so that it follows suit with the rest of the magic item rules and the clause in the 1 prestige class. Removing one off/special snowflake rules is normally a good thing. That potion of Shapechange will take 4 days to brew. But on the 4th day you could also brew up a second level potion.


That is 3 lvl 1, a lvl 2, and lvl 3 every day.

Or a 5th level every 2 days with 2 lvl 3 on that second day too.

There are, in fact, core spells whose minimum potion price is over 1000 gp (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingPotions) (bard 3rd, CL 7th—see good hope in the treasure table), and treasure tables (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/potionsAndOils.htm) include potions and oils with base prices up to 3000 gp from increase CL.

[Bphill561]

I might add some "decent" DM's don't allow prestige classes from multiple different campaign settings or dragon marks outside of Eberron.

You might have better luck with Master Alchemist and adding the Maester PrC that halves your crafting times. It specifically states 2000gp a day with a minimum time of one day. Let the rules lawyers commence, as each class has a rule that breaks general rules. But if you change the multi-potion gp cap to 2000gp and still can do multiple potions a day, I think these would stack.

Another option if you are willing to go divine and delay master alchemist is Ur-Priest. Something like Bard 3/ X2/ Ur-Priest 4.

So 3 levels in an arcane class to qualify for brew potion. You need 5 feats so go human or use the O-hole magical location for free Iron will. The only reason I suggest Ur-Priest is you can have a lower caster level on your potion because of the how ur-priest caster level is determined. Of course this may start the old minimum caster level argument. If you don't need the caster level on the spell though, 9 (spell level) x 9 (caster level) is almost half of the normal 9 x 17 for costs.

Both together extends range further since Maester gets its half craft time at level 1. You would need practiced spell caster or more bard levels to boost arcane caster level to 5 for Maester.

[Darg]

well the findings was for the 8 hour travel time. it states in the book that 16 hours is a forced march and there are issues with doing it but traveling 8 hours with 8 hours of down time and 8 hours of sleep is (from what we can tell) a by the book kind of thing. which is why when traveling distance for a day on a map you generally base it on 8 hour travel time (or at least we do when it becomes relevant) and honestly its more a 12 hour travel time for us because we set up a 3 point watch so each character gets 8 hours of sleep even if it is interrupted and most of the time we have someone who doesn't have to sleep that can keep watch all night as well (they generally have a ring of Sustanance or something like it.)

Why Elves are plain awesome. They only "sleep" for 4 hours and they stay semiconscious when they do it.

[Maat Mons]

The Quick Potion spell lets you create potions quickly. Though the potions created are temporary.

The Delay Potion feat may also be handy.

It strikes me that an Oil of True Resurrection only costs about 12% more than a Scroll of True Resurrection. Maybe worth keeping one on hand.

[sreservoir]

The Delay Potion feat may also be handy.

Pending Potion (MoE 100) is basically Delay Potion but as a 10 min/level 1st-level artificer infusion. Goes well with an eternal wand of quick potion. 400 gp in minor schema form if you can live with a 10-minute duration.