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View Full Version : Optimization Looking for Feedback or Options for an Evangelist Optimization Build



Doctor Despair
2020-09-27, 12:18 PM
Hello, folks; I've been toying with the idea of a build focused on using the Evangelist, but I'm not sure whether I've fully optimized it. I was hoping to get some feedback and suggestions -- either on class/feat selection, or items, or spells. I'm most interested in optimizing the Evangelist's capstone ability "Convert the Unfaithful" as a unique effect. Find the build, and some notes on how I'd expect each level to work, below:



ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


1
Bardic Sage
4
Negotiator




At level 1, we take a level in Bardic Sage. In addition to some of the normal benefits of taking a level of bard (classk skills and points, bardic music, good will save, etc), we gain a +2 to bardic knowledge checks and automatically gain a divination spell known at each level that we can cast (this will be important later). We do lose 2 points to our reflex save, which is sad, and 2 rounds of duration to bardic music after we stop performing, which is less sad. We also may as well trade Countersong out for Spellbreaker Song. Our gameplay in and out of combat isn't too different from how a standard bard would perform, although we will probably not want to be up in the melee, as we need a lot of points in charisma and intelligence (and, conversely, not many in str/con). We will want max ranks in Bluff, Gather Information, Knowledge (Religion), Perform (Oratory), and Sense Motive, as well as Negotiator, to satisfy upcoming prerequisites.



ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


1
Greater Fey Bloodline (x3)
7
-



We take three "levels" of bloodline while we are level 1. These explicitly don't contribute to our ECL, but do come with the following effects:


No BAB bonus, save bonus, hit points, skill points, or class features
An increase in max skill rank for each "level"
+1 level for each character ability based on class levels (such as caster level, spell durations, and save DCs based on class levels)

It costs 1000xp for an ECL 1 character to level-up, so we effectively pay 3000xp for the sum of these levels, meaning that we are now an ECL 1 character in an ECL 3 party (probably -- it is possible we have more than 3000 xp due to receiving more xp than our party members from ECL 2 encounters the party underwent during this process). In relation to a standard bard, we are currently missing out on level 1 spells (such as the all-star Grease), save bonuses, and we are missing +2 BAB, so our combat utility is a bit lower. Fortunately, each of these bloodline levels increase our uses of bardic music by 1, so we are actually marginally ahead by that metric. We do gain +2 on hide checks as a result of our bloodline, as well as various other effects at each level (notably, Iron Will at level 2 and a +1 to charisma at level 3). This is a weaker point in the build, but as we already don't intend to be frontlining, have decent skills, and still have our Inspire Courage buff, we will still be useful to the party in a support role. It is worthwhile to think of these as an already bought-off LA+2 in this case; as some have said, XP is a river, and given our actual ECL is 1, we will catch up soon with party encounters.

Upon leveling up the second and third time, we will make use of the PHB II retraining rules to move up to 4 skill ranks from one bard skill to another bard skill. In this way, we will put 4 ranks into Bluff and 3 ranks into Perform (Oratory) from other skills. This requires that we have at least a 12 in Intelligence, and considering we are a Bardic Sage, we probably have a bit more than that regardless.




ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


2
Marshal
8
Iron Will, Skill Focus: Diplomacy



Upon having gained 4000xp (for book-keeping, it's more effective to track this as an XP cost, but for the purposes of tracking the character's strength relative to the party, we will track the cumulative total), we reach level 2 while the party is level 3. With this level, our BAB is still lower, we have a massive will save (twice that of a level 3 bard), and our fort save is twice that of a level 3 bard. We are still missing out on level 1 spells, but with our minor aura, we can now motivate charisma. For now, this makes us better at what we were already good at (charisma-based skill checks), but this will be more relevant later. We put a point into Gather Information, Knowledge (Religeon), and Sense Motive, along with whatever the player prefers.



ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


3
Evangelist
9
Skill Focus: Perform



At 6000xp, the party is now level 4 while we reach level 3. We gain access to Inspire Dread, a mind-affecting no-save oratory that gives an untyped -4 to will saves on all enemies within 30 feet. This will be helpful as a set-up to our abilities later, but for now it's helpful for our allies.



ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


4
Evangelist
10
-



At 9000xp, the party is now level 4 (at least for another 1000xp) while we reach level 4 -- finally reunited, like two ships passing in the night. We gain access to Fast Talk, just in case we wanted to be a Diplomancer but didn't like the idea of being a binder (and to be fair, with our level in Marshal, we could probably get the +19 modifier to our rushed diplomacy check to end combat as a full-round action). With that said, we still have all our same buffs and debuffs available, and we get our first point of BAB bonus! Realistically, not much changes from level 3; this is a little bit of a dead level.




ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


5
Evangelist
11
-



At 13,000xp, the party is now level 5 while we reach level 5. We gain access to Inflame the Righteous, which is effectively Fire Shield at will as a full-round action. At this level, it is at caster level 8, so it deals 1d6 + 8 divine damage to folks who strike your party members in melee. It also grants 50% DR (and reflex for none) to all damaging attacks that are cold-based or fire-based (at your choice). This adds a bit more combat-utility to your build with the party, while you still have all your skills and level 1 spells for social and out-of-combat situations.



ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


6
Evangelist
12
Improved Counterspell



At 18,000xp, the party is now level 6 while we reach level 6. We are probably well past caught up on our xp total, or close enough that we are only one encounter behind the rest of the party, so it probably doesn't bear mention anymore. This may be slightly different if you started the game with LA you needed to buy off. We gain skill mastery with a few skills (if not all of them); at a minimum, we probably get access to 4 of them, and as I can't imagine many situations where we can't take 10 on a disguise check, it will be Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. We have now accidentally become a Diplomacer (10 + 3 (Skill Focus) + probably at least 5 (charisma) + probably at least 5 (Marshal) + skill ranks (could be up to 12) - 5 (rushed check), for a guaranteed 20 with no items to assist the check (or 25 if we aren't rushed). However, we knew Diplomancy was broken, so hopefully the DM will be adding circumstantial modifiers to the rolls.

The Improved Counterspell, a more or less useless feat-tax for us, is taken now for the purposes of reducing the amount of times we need to retrain feats.



ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


7
Evangelist
13
-



Here we get the bread and butter capstone of the Evangelist: Convert the Unfaithful. Consider the text of the following ability to parse exactly what it does (emphasis mine):

An evangelist of 5th level with at least 13 ranks in Perform (oratory) may attempt to convert a single enemy within 30 feet. As a full-round action, the evangelist delivers an impassioned speech on the righteousness of his beliefs to a single enemy, who must attempt a Will save (DC = 10 + class level + Cha mod). If the creature succeeds, it is shaken for one round. If the creature fails its saving throw, it converts. Creatures with an alignment subtype (such as angels and devils) are immune to this ability. A converted creature is effectively charmed by the evangelist (similar to a charm monster spell). In addition, a converted creature temporarily assumes the alignment of the evangelist and acts accordingly. This may mean some of the creature's class abilities, spells, or other abilities are unavailable to it for the duration of the spell (a paladin converted to something other than lawful good, for example, loses her class abilities for the duration).

When the duration elapses, the creature then has a choice: It can continue to act according to its new alignment, or it can shift back. If the creature chooses to permanently change its alignment to the evangelist's, it acts as if a cleric of the appropriate alignment had cast atonement on it. If the creature chooses to change back, it must make another saving throw (with the same save DC as before). If it fails this saving throw its alignment changes back but it needs an atonement spell to gain back any abilities it lost due to its temporary alignment change.

So first, let's look at the type of the ability: it is supernatural, so SR doesn't apply.

It isn't called out to be mind-affecting or language-dependent as the other Evangelist abilities explicitly are; it allows you to treat someone as if they were effectively charmed by a charm monster spell, but it is not a charm effect (or a charm monster spell), similar to how Necrotic Domination (a Mother Cyst spell) effectively Dominate Person's a humanoid, but is not mind-affecting.

It doesn't list a duration, but it references having a duration, so it probably inherits it from the charm monster spell (1 day/level).

While it is not mind-affecting, charm monster works as charm person, and charm person causes someone to treat you as friendly, does not allow you to control them as an automaton, but allows you to give them orders by language or pantomime (DC 15 or 20 Bluff check, I would think). Therefore, mindless creatures, who do not have a language or any ability to interpret a message, are probably unable to receive any instructions, although they should still treat you as if you were a friend.

When you give them orders that they wouldn't normally do (so long as the orders aren't suicidal or blatantly harmful orders, although they can be dangerous), you make an opposed charisma check -- for which we can use our Marshal "Inspire Charisma" ability to gain more of an upper hand than we already had.

So now: as a full-round action, we can force a will save (DC 18 + charisma) on a creature within 30 feet. Upon succeeding, they are shaken for one round; upon failing, their alignment changes to match ours. If they are mindless, they view us as a friend, but have no change in attitude towards our allies; if they have an intelligence score, they view us as a friend, we can give them orders, and we can make an opposed charisma check (where we receive 2x our charisma bonus) to make them do things they wouldn't normally do, even if the things are dangerous to them, so long as they do not believe the orders would 100% cause their death or permanently harm them. After days equal to our HD, they may choose to keep our alignment; if they choose to keep the alignment, they retain our alignment and have the effects of an atonement spell, but no longer automatically view us as friendly. If they choose to try to change back to their original alignment, they make another save at the same DC. If they succeed, the text seems to imply they would regain their original alignment and any abilities they lost access to due to the change; if they fail, their alignment changes back and they need to seek out an atonement spell to regain their alignment-based abilities lost.

We can also use our Inspire Dread ability to impose a -4 to their will save before hand, given time and assuming they aren't immune to mind-affecting effects, and assuming you are an evil Evangelist and not good or neutral.




ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


8
Spellsinger
14
-



Spellsinger is somewhat of an uneventful class level. It increases our spellcasting (level 1 spells, at last!), it adds +4 to our fascinate/suggestion/perform, it adds +2 to our bardic music class-based DCs, +4 to bardic music uses, and it seems to grant us access to any arcane enchantment spell from the bard spell list one or more levels lower than our highest spell slot.

Upon leveling, we retrain our Improved Counterspell into another feat.




ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


9
Heartfire Fanner
15
Versatile Spellcaster, Melodic Casting



Heartfire Fanner increases our spellcasting, stacks with the bloodline synergy for bardic music uses and DCs, and notably grants us access to all the bardic music we have missed out on subject to our perform and character level requirements, and increases our effective bard level to 5 (more uses, more DCs). As such, we gain use of Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Inspire Courage, and Inspire Greatness, and we gain the remainder of the standard bardic musics, although we can't use them until later. This rewards us for having as few levels in bard as possible, as we earned the class features from it back now regardless.

We also gain Inspire Fight, which lets us grant our feats to 3 characters in our party (probably spellcasters), or fighter feats to up to 3 members in our party. We can sustain this as long as we perform, so we can grant them use of the feats effectively all day, which is why we take melodic casting here to let us still cast spells. Notably, Martial Study can grant a bunch of abilities (such as, for example, short-range teleports), so this adds a lot of utility.

As we level up, we will retrain Negotiator, as we no longer need it to meet prerequisites to enter into any PrCs.




ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


10
Heartfire Fanner
16
Fey Bloodline



+1 to spellcasting and bardic music levels, and we get Magic Flare to let us convert bardic music into one level of metamagic (which, if we get a metamagic feat, we can grant to our allies to use). We gain second level spellslots here.

In addition, upon gaining our Fey Bloodline, we add Tongues to our level 3 spells known. We can trade two of our level 2 spellslots up to cast it, so we also gain access to the level 3 divination we know as a result of our Bardic Sage class feature. This isn't super relevant at this level, but it is relevant for the purposes of meeting prerequisites, as we can now trade out the Fey Bloodline and let the Bardic Sage divination self-qualify. As such, we will retrain out of Fey Bloodline upon leveling up.




ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


11
Sublime Chord
17
Extend Spell



Funnily enough, having used Versatile Spellcaster to qualify as casting 3rd-level arcane spells, we now have level 2 spell-slots, and level 4-spellslots, but no level 3 spell-slots. However, we have managed to enter it on-time (at least in terms of the intended level to enter Sublime Chord, given the skill rank requirement; if we had entered as early as possible, at level 8, we would technically, start one level ahead of wizard progression, but now we are one level behind sorcerer progression. Our bardic music increases again, accented with our bloodline, and we gain the ability to use our bardic music to apply a free Extend to any spells we or a party member could cast of one level lower than their highest (combining Inspire Fight with Magic Flare).

While leveling, we will also train out of Skill Focus: Perform, as that has long-since lost relevance outside of boosting our fascinate DC.




ECL
Class
Max Skill Rank
Feats


12
Sublime Chord
18
Lyric Spell, Extra Music



Lyric Spell and Extra Music allow us to cast more spells per day than we would normally be able to, which helps even up some of the spellcasting discrepency between our build and a generic sorcerer. Meanwhile, we also gain access to the Song of Arcane Power to boost our caster level, which is nice if we are struggling to break SR or something similar. At this point, we can take 10 more levels of Sublime Chord to qualify for Epic Sublime Chord at 20, or we can prestige out and try to progress our Sublime Chord casting with something else, as Sublime Chord has few class features left to gain (most notably missing out ont he Song of Timelessness, a will save or else cause an opponent to freeze in time, unable to act or perceive anything, but unable to be affected, for 1 min/level.

As you can see, the build is race-agnostic and doesn't require any spellcasting services or outside assistance, such as the use of Psychic Reformation, Polymorph, Inspire Greatness, or lycanthropy to swap feats or exceed skill caps for the purposes of meeting prerequisites, which I am committed to for this build.

I'm not sure how to evaluate the value of having the feats I chose versus taking more feats to boost the DC (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?524863-Increasing-Supernatural-Abilty-DC)of Convert the Unfaithful, or otherwise improve it, such as by doubling the range 1/day with Enlarge Supernatural Ability. Maybe we could get some utility out of Disguise Spell?

The build definitely doesn't pick up until level 9 (when casting and music picks up), although there are benchmarks where we see spikes in utility at levels 1 (not underleveled), 5 (Inflame the Righteous offers more combat utility), and 7 (when we get Convert the Unfaithful). If we use retraining more often, we can temporarily train out of Negotiator at level 3 (and train back in later), or take a different feat at level 3 and retrain back into Skill Focus: Perform at level 7, but I'm not sure what feats would be most worth taking in the meantime to improve our early-game utility.

Thoughts, friends?

Palanan
2020-09-27, 04:34 PM
Just as a general suggestion on presentation, I would recommend removing your spoilered notes from the box format, since it doesn't really add anything and makes them more difficult to read.

Doctor Despair
2020-09-27, 04:50 PM
Just as a general suggestion on presentation, I would recommend removing your spoilered notes from the box format, since it doesn't really add anything and makes them more difficult to read.

Thanks for the heads up; I fixed it :)