Rune Knight

[MrStabby]

So I am not the biggest fan of the fighter class. A bit bland, not so much special about it - I mean its good but just not for me.

That said I am really drawn to the Rune Knight UA. It has flavour up the wazoo, it seems to me to be really, really powerful - at least for a non spellcaster.

https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-RuneSwarmRevived.pdf


I wanted to run through the class and to see if people disagreed with my sense of why it is really powerful.

So there is one downside to the class - it is more MAD than the typical fighter. A typical fighter can get by with an attack stat, some constitution and get some feats. Even an eldritch knight can pick spells that don't need int. So yeah, you might be a feat or two down if you are maxing Int.

My point of comparison is mostly the battlemaster, using short rest resources and a focus on combat tricks seems apt.


So at level 3, you get two runes, compared to 3 manuvres for the battlemaster. You get two uses as opposed to four and you can't swap between them. On the pure numbers side the battlemaster is well ahead here. I would suggest though that the runes offer a lot more AND you also get giant might as your secons ability which, depending on your campaign might be better than a tool proficiency.

The runes are AWESOME abilities. Most of them have a passive static ability that isn't worth much - I say this not because they are not combat abilities, but rather because you are wanting high strength/dex and high int and decnet con... getting the wisdom and charisma needed to get use from some of these is... optimistic.

Haug - saving throws against poison and resistance to poison damage as a passive ability is niche, but it is something that has a decent chance of coming up a couple of times in a campaign. The activated ability though is pretty awesome. Resistance to physical damage for a minute should see you through most fights. So we are looking at something akin to the defensive part of barbarian rage but without the restrictions on rage ending... and as a small part of the class package rather than a major feature. At one per short rest you are probably looking at a similar frequency to the barbarian as well.

Ild - so the passive bonus is probably not that exciting to many, but in case you would prefer the battlemaster because you want to use tools well, this ensures this subclass offers more. In a campaign where tool use is important, you would struggle to do beter than this - The active part is no slouch either. So fiery shackles are comparable to ensnaring strike - on the plus side more damage, on the down side it is a repeated save not a check. No concentration though and no bonus action needed to use. All this kind of mekes me feel that this subclass kind of obviates a lot of the ranger stuff. When you get Giant Might substituting for hunter's mark and Ild rune substituting for ensnaring strike you really need to appreciate the other elements of low level rangers if you want to play one...

Ise - this is one of the examples where I don't see the passives as having much effect. With little space for boosting wisdom or charisma I would predict this would go unused. Active ability is +2 strength for 10 min. 10 min is, as per spirit guardians, enough for a couple of fights. +2 strength is pretty modest though and pushes you into a strength build - not bad, but not one of what I would think of as being the best abilities. Having something a little further down the list is OK though. You will pick up 5 eventually. Still I would say this is the weakest one.

Skye - passives are not a total loss as if you are going for a dex build and are in a campaign where sleight of hand counts for something. The active ability is a lifesaver. Someone near death who can be protected as a reaction, and doing damage to an assailent? Yeah, very powerful. And it's an attack roll - not just a weapon attack so any spell attack as well... And you get to see the roll first, knowing its hitting your team before using it. This is the thing that can buy that turn to turn a lost fight into a win.

Stein - another wisdom score... but also dark vision. If you are picking up variant human or halfling without darkvision this this pretty huge. The active ability is just insane though. Tasha's hideous laughter, without concentration, with a reaction cast time, with no repeat save... A great thing that this offer is the versatility for a fighter to attack different weaknesses. Hitting wisdom rather than a strong point on a beefcake enemy is more valuable on a fighter than a class that can hit an enemy with hold person or similar. This is a really powerful ability.

Uvar - so awesome passives, not least because you get to be the character that takes arcana checks with high int and advantage. And... being unable to be surprised takes the edge off not having the highest wisdom. Actually pretty nice to have. I would also highly rate the active ability. One minute advantage on saves... and attack rolls... for your team (ok, just one per turn but still good) or giving enemies disadvantage... I mean how much support do your spellcasters need to relaibably land those encounter ending spells? This think is nuts!

I guess my point is on the runes - they are really powerful. As importantly they are really flexible, spanning deffensive, offensive, control, support abilities... It lets the fighter step into so many different roles. Whilst a battlemaster gets three picks and suffers from diminishing returns for more - here you still have the excitement of picking up each new one and they keep adding awesome. More importantly this versatility and breadth of power, the ability to use many different abilities make me think this is a really fun class.

Giant Might - as said before - its like hunters mark... but better. Able to apply to any enemy, twice per short rest and for a minute with no concentration risk for early ending. It's a good ability. But the class is awesome, so it makes sure to give you more than that and to let you be an awesome grappler. You can swing from beating people, to grappling them using your advantage and increased size and if neither of these work, then you can fall back on your runes. It just seems an epic amount to pile onto the level 3 of a class. Its worth noting that as fighters are the class that gets the most attacks this scales better than it would on any other martial.

Defensive runes kicks in at level 7 and lets you use your reaction to boost AC to you allies within 60ft. Once more, it lets you do something a fighter couldn't do, makes you into a suport tank, like a paladin. As there are few campaign where attacks don't happen I see this as being a pretty broadly useful. And another rune known, which should not be underestimated. Fighter level 7 abilities are rarely this powerful - war magic, know your enemy etc. are good, but not this good. Battle master gets another superiority die, so does four weak special things per short rest, rather than three strong ones.

Great stature is a weak level for the Rune Knight - you get a crucial boost to your number of runes (nice!), get a bit bigger (ok... sure), and get a minor boost to your Giant Might damage (meh) but this is a level before you hit 3 attacks so it isn't like it is a weak part of the class. That said, it is not like other fighters get a lot. Superiority dice become D10s, another fighting style. Eldritch Knights actually get a good ability (or it would be if they had more spells to use it with).

I think that fighters tend to slow down a bit after level 11. When casters are getting high level spells smacking things with a stick falls behind a bit and fighter high level abilities are nothing special. But I think Rune Knight slows down less than most level 15 doubles your use for each rune and gives you another rune. By this level you have 12 rune knight abilities that recharge on a short rest plus your fighter abilities like action surge. Never should you have a dull turn where you are not doing something special. I would rate this above the other fighter abilities.

And at level 18... you also get to boost your allies damage through blessing of the allfather and Giant Might. OK, I will say that this isn't that exciting and extra D8 damage per attack of your allies will not break encounters like some of your other abilities. Still, nice to have.



So I might have missed something... but isn't this the most fun, versitile and possibly powerful (at high levels) martial character that has come out of UA? I was impressed that there was something that took a class I didn't want to play and turn it into something actually exciting. I am just surprised I haven't heard about this more.

[jaappleton]

First, here’s a very fun trick:

Go Deurgar. Why? Because they can cast Enlarge on themselves. So you activate Giant Might and then Enlarge and you’re now a Huge creature.

Im still trying to find a way to get this to work in a way that grants Powerful Build, without needing outside help. You can always change your race and snag three levels of Wizard, which honestly isn’t a bad idea at all since you need Intelligence anyway so Bladesinger becomes a really nice option, so something like Goliath or Firbolg is a nice choice if you’re using the character creation method of Tasha’s.

But yeah, you become Huge. There’s, to my knowledge, no other way to accomplish that than Rune Knight, though I suspect the final version will close up that loophole.

Secondly: I dislike Fighters. I see Fighters and always think, “I’d be better off going Barb / Paladin / Ranger instead.” I find Fighters to be boring, but not the other alternatives. I think EK works only as a defensive tank, so it’s neutered in its own concept of having offensive spells since they’re always going to pretty much suck. Heck, a Bladelock’s weapons aren’t innately magical but an EK doesn’t have the same luxury?

Sorry, I’m ranting. Of all Fighter subclasses, though, I actually like the Rune Knight more than the other subclasses.

My main issue with it, however, is some of the powers. I only like a few of the Runes. I’d rather it learn more runes, but instead of using each rune only once per rest, give me a total number of rune uses. Let me use the one I like three times per rest if I want instead of once per.

[Man_Over_Game]

I would have liked the Rune Knight to have some sort of major playstyle adjustment for each type, maybe even including some kind of penalty in each possible "element" that forces you to change around your playstyle.

As-is, it's really hard to play a Fighter incorrectly. Being attacked has value, as you're tankier and harder to hit than most folks, and you have more defensive powers. Making an attack has value, as damage is the universal currency towards success, and you don't usually have many circumstances/efficiency modifiers to your attacks to do it incorrectly.

So as a result, for the tactically-minded, the Fighter is an incredibly boring class, since there aren't really any decision-making process behind playing the class well.

But having something like the Rune Knight's "stance" playstyle to incorporate penalties that you have to work around, it'd be a great change that'd force you to adapt towards unforeseen circumstances.


For example, the Earth form causing the earth around you to be Difficult Terrain (including for yourself) but grants damage resistance and extra damage. The Air form gives Disadvantage against Ranged Attacks for you and creatures adjacent to you, and pushes enemies you hit back by 5 feet.

Having a "difficult" build for the Fighter is something that has been massively missing, and working around the versatility and simplicity of the Fighter as a foundation means you'd need to artificially increase the difficulty through somewhat-awkward mechanics. Similar to how a caster has to adapt around having prepared spells that aren't relevant to the situation.

I feel the Rune Knight in particular could perfectly fill this role, if WotC realized the same.

[Nhorianscum]

The storm rune alone is just an entire subclass's worth of high power features slapped onto your PC at 3rd level.

This looks completely bonkers.

[DeTess]

The storm rune alone is just an entire subclass's worth of high power features slapped onto your PC at 3rd level.

Or about the equivalent of about a third level spell or so.

I personally really like the rune knight because it gives me options, both in-combat with the 1/rest rune-trigger, and out-of-combat by making certain skills viable that weren't that before for the fighter. You won't be as good a skill monkey as the rogue, and you won't crowd control as well as the wizard, but you've got options beyond 'I stick it with a sword', which the fighter was really lacking.

[MrStabby]

First, here’s a very fun trick:

Go Deurgar. Why? Because they can cast Enlarge on themselves. So you activate Giant Might and then Enlarge and you’re now a Huge creature.

Im still trying to find a way to get this to work in a way that grants Powerful Build, without needing outside help. You can always change your race and snag three levels of Wizard, which honestly isn’t a bad idea at all since you need Intelligence anyway so Bladesinger becomes a really nice option, so something like Goliath or Firbolg is a nice choice if you’re using the character creation method of Tasha’s.

But yeah, you become Huge. There’s, to my knowledge, no other way to accomplish that than Rune Knight, though I suspect the final version will close up that loophole.

Secondly: I dislike Fighters. I see Fighters and always think, “I’d be better off going Barb / Paladin / Ranger instead.” I find Fighters to be boring, but not the other alternatives. I think EK works only as a defensive tank, so it’s neutered in its own concept of having offensive spells since they’re always going to pretty much suck. Heck, a Bladelock’s weapons aren’t innately magical but an EK doesn’t have the same luxury?

Sorry, I’m ranting. Of all Fighter subclasses, though, I actually like the Rune Knight more than the other subclasses.

My main issue with it, however, is some of the powers. I only like a few of the Runes. I’d rather it learn more runes, but instead of using each rune only once per rest, give me a total number of rune uses. Let me use the one I like three times per rest if I want instead of once per.

I think we are pretty much in agreement on fighter. Flavourless and uninspiring... but the RK seems to skip that.

I love that the RK can be good at so many things - to be honest. I dont mind that each rune cant share its uses with others. I am happy that it means more diverse things happen. Sure it would be more powerful if we could just use the most powerful rune every fight, but assuming that it gets rebalanced to have the same power, I would rather have the power be granted elsewhere and to have to use a more diverse set of runes.

I mean none of them are bad. None of them make me think I wouldnt use them or that I shouldn't prioritise them. They genuinely seem like they all offer something for the right circumstances. +2 strength for a huge long battle is still pretty good and nothing stops you stacking all of these. You can have that and incapacitate an enemy on a failed wisdom save and have resistance to physical damage and be pinning down enemies with fiery chains all in the same fight. Your peak power level is pretty huge given you can also use action surge and are not bound by concentration limitations or the multiple non cantrip spells per turn limitations. You can be a pretty epic badass.

I was thinking about if there were any fun multiclass builds for it, which is kind of how it started. For most martials, there are points where you kind of want to jump out of the class, that low level stuff from other classes is just more attractive than the next few levels of your class. I never felt that here. You hit level 3, then one more level gets you an ASI (nice for martials), then extra attack, then another ASI, then the OP AC boosting ability, then another ASI... you could take a break here, but that sweet third attack is up ahead and you pick up indomitable and improved embiggening along the way (and the extra rune) - it isnt like there are dead levels. 12 gives you an ASI again which keeps its value as you are a bit MAD, then 13 and 14 keep giving you stuff (another indomitable and ASI) that keeps rewarding you just enough for staying in the class on the way to 15 where you double your runes... and maybe I could see multiclassing out here... but for your final levels you are missing out on a 4th attack, 2 more ASIs, more indomitable and your subclass capstone.

My usual urges when thinking about fighters are to want to dip a little rogue or a level of war cleric, or maybe two levels of barbarian... here I just feel I am missing out on too much and the pay off is too little.

[firelistener]

Rune Knight seems incredibly powerful to me. It can basically function as a barbarian with short-rest charges for Rage because of how the Hill rune works. With Giant's migh on top, you have all the benefits of a Rage and more. Plus, all the other runes are really good too. The passive advantage on skill checks is really nice and the other abilities are great; there's not a bad choice among them.

[stoutstien]

Rune Knight seems incredibly powerful to me. It can basically function as a barbarian with short-rest charges for Rage because of how the Hill rune works. With Giant's migh on top, you have all the benefits of a Rage and more. Plus, all the other runes are really good too. The passive advantage on skill checks is really nice and the other abilities are great; there's not a bad choice among them.

Well barbarians are in a rough spot to start with.
The rune knight does seem nice but I'm seeing a lot of action conflict to keep in check. Very bonus action/reaction heavy.

[MrStabby]

So what is the view on street build vs a DeX build for this?

So a strength build gets to take advantage of all the grappling advantages and probably gets more mileage out of the resistance to physical damage runes at low levels.

Dexterity tends to have fewer feats needed to be optimal. I would lean towards dexterity for a RK build as shooting is more likely to keep your reactions clear and can place less demand on your bonus actions as well. Dexterity doesnt mean you cant tank either, if you get your physical resistances up you can jump into the front lines with a rapier to try and keep enemies away. I guess it would somewhat depend on party composition.


I wouldnt mind seeing this expanded further. One rune knight uses runes, another hieroglyphics, another Book of Kells style illustrated manuscripts, each with different sets of options to pick from... mind you, at that point you are looking at a separate class, but I would be OK with that.

[Amnestic]

I'd be very surprised if Uvar goes live in Tasha's as it is right now. One minute of floating advantage/disadvantage every turn, refreshing on a short rest? You can use it to boost your own saves, you can use it to boost rogue attacks, you can use it to help guarantee the enemy fails a save on a crucial crowd control spell from your ally. Choosing what to use it on is crucial, yes, but it's great as a floating party buff ability. And in the situation where you can't find anything to do with it? Just give yourself advantage and smash something with your extra 1d6 damage weapon attacks.

Action economy on a rune knight is the big thing - a lot of stuff uses your bonus action/reaction but also most of that stuff is good to begin with so it doesn't feel bad, and it doesn't interfere with the core fighter thing (smacking/shooting people in the face).

[MrStabby]

I'd be very surprised if Uvar goes live in Tasha's as it is right now. One minute of floating advantage/disadvantage every turn, refreshing on a short rest? You can use it to boost your own saves, you can use it to boost rogue attacks, you can use it to help guarantee the enemy fails a save on a crucial crowd control spell from your ally. Choosing what to use it on is crucial, yes, but it's great as a floating party buff ability. And in the situation where you can't find anything to do with it? Just give yourself advantage and smash something with your extra 1d6 damage weapon attacks.

Action economy on a rune knight is the big thing - a lot of stuff uses your bonus action/reaction but also most of that stuff is good to begin with so it doesn't feel bad, and it doesn't interfere with the core fighter thing (smacking/shooting people in the face).

I am just glad to see, however briefly, a counter example to the "martials can't have nice things" philosophy of game design.

[Amnestic]

I am just glad to see, however briefly, a counter example to the "martials can't have nice things" philosophy of game design.

I've not been able to play much so far with the rune knight I made but even with just two runes (I went with Uvar and Skye) it feels really cool to have the extra things to do with your reactions other than "hope an enemy moves away to (maybe) hit them". Even when you don't use them it's nice to just have the option sat there ready, just in case.

I think that might be part of its attraction - its stuff is tied to something that's not often used elswhere. Are there any other (sub)classes for martials that have a lot of reaction interaction? I know spellcasters get things like Shield and Counterspell but I'm drawing a blank on martial things other than OAs or Scout's 'retreat' (which is pretty cool honestly)

[stoutstien]

I've not been able to play much so far with the rune knight I made but even with just two runes (I went with Uvar and Skye) it feels really cool to have the extra things to do with your reactions other than "hope an enemy moves away to (maybe) hit them". Even when you don't use them it's nice to just have the option sat there ready, just in case.

I think that might be part of its attraction - its stuff is tied to something that's not often used elswhere. Are there any other (sub)classes for martials that have a lot of reaction interaction? I know spellcasters get things like Shield and Counterspell but I'm drawing a blank on martial things other than OAs or Scout's 'retreat' (which is pretty cool honestly)
The cavalier fighters is pretty reaction heavy.

[MrStabby]

I've not been able to play much so far with the rune knight I made but even with just two runes (I went with Uvar and Skye) it feels really cool to have the extra things to do with your reactions other than "hope an enemy moves away to (maybe) hit them". Even when you don't use them it's nice to just have the option sat there ready, just in case.

I think that might be part of its attraction - its stuff is tied to something that's not often used elswhere. Are there any other (sub)classes for martials that have a lot of reaction interaction? I know spellcasters get things like Shield and Counterspell but I'm drawing a blank on martial things other than OAs or Scout's 'retreat' (which is pretty cool honestly)

I think its awesomeness is a combination of raw power, broad use of reactions/bonus actions to do different stuff, and doing stuff mechanically and thematically. Charming enemies is rarely a core fighter capability.

[cutlery]

It is interesting - not quite my cuppa, but I'm on the fence.


I think you're right, the better comparison is the battlemaster.

There are some weird combos in there; like Ild and thieves' tools from a background - expertise with thieves' tools!

It is a long wait to get to short rest recharge on runes; but this will only matter at some tables.

I think battlemaster is more front loaded, and makes for a better dip/multiclass option - but that's okay. Compare with the new UA maneuvers that let you use sup die on select ability checks.

[MrStabby]

It is interesting - not quite my cuppa, but I'm on the fence.


I think you're right, the better comparison is the battlemaster.

There are some weird combos in there; like Ild and thieves' tools from a background - expertise with thieves' tools!

It is a long wait to get to short rest recharge on runes; but this will only matter at some tables.

I think battlemaster is more front loaded, and makes for a better dip/multiclass option - but that's okay. Compare with the new UA maneuvers that let you use sup die on select ability checks.

All the runes are on a short rest recharge. Level 15 just lets them be used twice per short rest each.

[cutlery]

All the runes are on a short rest recharge. Level 15 just lets them be used twice per short rest each.

Ah, thats nicer than I thought.

You end up with plenty of uses, too.


It's less flexible (thematically) than the battlemaster, but that might be more of a feature than a bug. It's hard to be as flexible as the battlemaster, really - even the eldritch knight ends up with a certain sort of feel with the spell school restrictions. There are a *lot* of maneuvers out there.


You eventually learn five of six runes with the Rune Knight; so they'll all feel pretty similar.

[animewatcha]

Let's not forget that rune knight operates off Intelligence mod. So in order to get the most out of it, fighter would need to be more MAD than alright is.

[MrStabby]

Let's not forget that rune knight operates off Intelligence mod. So in order to get the most out of it, fighter would need to be more MAD than alright is.

I have slightly revised my view on this since my original comments know this... if you are only playing to level 6 you can get away with dumping int without a huge loss.

[Phhase]

I actually think you're UNDERestimating the potential of the Skye active. You realize that you can use it to redirect ANY attack that hits an ally? Potentially one that said ally allowed hit them? Or even yourself? Basically, you have 1 line of sight guaranteed hit with anything requiring an attack roll.

The Skye rune features prominently in my Wallhack Warlock build that combines Skye with the Ghostly Gaze invocation, Assassin 3, and a ballista (Sig quote related).

[Amnestic]

I actually think you're UNDERestimating the potential of the Skye active. You realize that you can use it to redirect ANY attack that hits an ally? Potentially one that said ally allowed hit them? Or even yourself? Basically, you have 1 line of sight guaranteed hit with anything requiring an attack roll.


This isn't true - there are no rules for allowing yourself to be hit in 5e. If your DM wants to allow you to forgo on attack roll, that's their decision, but as written the rules are clear - you make an attack, you make an attack roll. Even when someone is unconscious you don't auto-hit, just get advantage.

Skye is still very good. Being able to take an enemy's critical and turn it right back on them is potent, but that doesn't change that you can't - without DM adding/changing rules - choose to be hit.

[stoutstien]

Redirecting a single attack is a niche ability that would be fun but it's once a s/l rest. It's on my short list of initial pics just because it's interesting not because it's powerful.

Storm is the real gem. I can't think of a single party where this wouldn't become a big part of any strategy.

[MrStabby]

Redirecting a single attack is a niche ability that would be fun but it's once a s/l rest. It's on my short list of initial pics just because it's interesting not because it's powerful.

Storm is the real gem. I can't think of a single party where this wouldn't become a big part of any strategy.

I don't think its bad - it is a pretty awesome use of a reaction to keep an ally alive to to turn a big hitter against its own team. The ability to pick out enemy casters concentrating on spells (and protecting concentration on your own allies is quite important sometimes) or enemies that would otherwise be hard to reach is good. As you know the roll, you know if you are stopping a hit, a critical hit or if it would miss the enemy you throw it at.

I agree on storm - so easy to set up and just keeps giving value so flexibly through a combat - if the party needs to switch tactics at any point it is likely to support whatever new thing you are looking to do.

I think my ratings would be:

1) Storm - so broad, so powerful, the superman rune.

2) Stone - a reaction to take someone out for the fight with no further save? No concentration? yup. Please.

3) Hill - resistance to BPS is awesome, it also rounds out the others. With support, damage and defence abilities you can go whichever way you need in a fight.

4) Cloud - how to save a life. How to subvert a critical hit.

5) Fire - on an archer where you can restrain someone out of reach this is nice. Fire damage and strenght saves less good, but no action needed of any type.

6) Ice - +2 strength is just a bit dull


In terms of Order in which I would be tempted to take them, it could be Storm, hill, then stone, cloud, fire... This way you get a couple of ASIs under your belt to boost Int before getting the runes that need it. You want high int by level 7 anyway to boost AC.

[animewatcha]

How many good upper level spells require an attack roll? For comparison against skye.

-edit- remembering back to the psionic die feats from unearthed arcana. 2 feats and 1 minute ( once per long rest ) and get benefits of a short rest like rune refreshment. Potentially doubling rune usage per long rest.

[stoutstien]

If you happen to have 2 players with at least 3 lv of RK once a short rest you can get an enemy to hit themselves.

[MrStabby]

If you happen to have 2 players with at least 3 lv of RK once a short rest you can get an enemy to hit themselves.

That is.... amusing.


How many good upper level spells require an attack roll? For comparison against skye.

-edit- remembering back to the psionic die feats from unearthed arcana. 2 feats and 1 minute ( once per long rest ) and get benefits of a short rest like rune refreshment. Potentially doubling rune usage per long rest.

Uff. Yeah. That feat would be quite nice. Not just runes but also second wind and action surge as well. You would need to pick up wild talent first - but as both are half feats and you are a fighter it isn't too bad. Depending on what might become a bit more official (as I don't like to think about multiclassing UA usually), I could see this becoming another ubiquitous hexblade dip. Adding in a couple of short rest spell slots to round out use of the feat would be very efficient. I am not sure its the best use for the ASIs from a power perspective, but its good enough and more time actually playing your subclass each day sounds fun.

As for high level spells that need an attack roll - I can only think of planeshift off the top of my head. I guess that they didn't want to run the risk of things like disintegrate getting a critical hit.