Flipping the Warlock's choices (Pact vs Patron)

[IChosePoorly]

I'm intrigued by the idea of a warlock who discovers her pact object first, and only later discovers what kind of being it's attached to.

So, thought experiment: what awfulness could happen if warlocks (or A warlock) got the Pact Boon at first level and the Patron benefits at third?

[cutlery]

I don’t think that would be much of a problem, though I expect Hexblade would look awfully tasty for each and every blade lock, once they’ve been smacked in the face a few times.

I suppose the pact features are pretty lackluster at level 1, though.

[Hellpyre]

Arguablely, Pact of the Chain is the only one that has exceptional value at level 1 vs 3, and some patron features (esp. list expansion) are hurt more by coming later. Overall it's probably a nerf to Warlock.

[Dork_Forge]

Tome Shilellagh SADness comes online at level 1, not really a problem, arguably better tahn the current issue of Hexblade. The only problem I foresee really is that if you can get an Imp at 1st level it's basically better than a PC in most ways:

-comparable hp with d8 classes but with a load of resistances and some immunities
-a none trivial attack at 1st and 2nd level
-at will invisibility

[TrueAlphaGamer]

I actually think flipping might help with the perceived issue of stuff like Hexblade dips, so it should be generally fine.


I suppose the pact features are pretty lackluster at level 1, though.

To be honest, most class features are lackluster at level 1 :smallbiggrin:


The only problem I foresee really is that if you can get an Imp at 1st level it's basically better than a PC in most ways

Hmm, maybe, but 13 AC and 20 effective hp + the attack at those levels isn't that egregious when there's an 1 hour cast time and 10 gold tax just to spawn it. If it becomes a huge issue the DM can just snipe it while it scouts.

[KorvinStarmast]

To be honest, most class features are lackluster at level 1 :smallbiggrin: Perhaps. But I will say this: that first level addition of two cantrips, and the 2d6 per long rest healing, on my celestial warlock was useful as all get out for the first two levels.

[Dork_Forge]

Hmm, maybe, but 13 AC and 20 effective hp + the attack at those levels isn't that egregious when there's an 1 hour cast time and 10 gold tax just to spawn it. If it becomes a huge issue the DM can just snipe it while it scouts.

The cast time and gold are mostly an issue when you use a Wizard familiar too extensively, an Imp isn't going to be dying that much unless the DM specifically targets it, which might cause some tensions in parties. There's also the risk of increasing the difficulty because of what is essentially another PC at 1st/2nd, which can lead to being too hard for the actual party.

Overall it'd be safer to just not flip them, especially since a lot of patron features would feel underwhelming to get at 3rd level, at least the pacts open up invocations.

[KorvinStarmast]

I am going to head for a bit of root cause analysis.

patron hex blade being removed solves nearly all of these problems.

The issue isn't pact/patron placement in level progression

[Amechra]

I honestly thought that this was going to be the opposite - you'd get your Pact at 1st level and then get extra features at 6th, 10th, and 14th, while you pick your Patron at 3rd level (and all that gives you is a single feature and the ability to take some new Invocations).

But yeah, as it stands, this wouldn't be balanced.

[KorvinStarmast]

I honestly thought that this was going to be the opposite - you'd get your Pact at 1st level and then get extra features at 6th, 10th, and 14th, while you pick your Patron at 3rd level (and all that gives you is a single feature and the ability to take some new Invocations). As the chapter description of the Warlock reads, if the patron doesn't grant the 'lock pact magic, they never get out of the starting gate. It's kind of like a step zero: find a patron, and from the patron get some pact magic however that happens. (GOO origins have so much flexibility into how it happens, so let one's imagination run amok! Embrace the madness)