Dresden Files Book 17: Battle Ground

[lowfyr]

Just finished reading it and I will just say awesome does not begin to describe it.

[tomandtish]

Have to agree. My copy came in at 11:00pm last night. I was done by 1 am.

The obvious:

They killed Murphy? And not even in an epic fight, but because Rudolph can't hold it together and shoots her?!? This broke my heart.

Marcone is paired with Thorned Namshiel. Well, now we know what happened to at least one of the missing coins in Small Favor. Unanswered question: How long after SF did he actually take up the coin? If TN is working a true pairing with Marcone, then Marcone just became at least an order of magnitude more dangerous.

Chicago (at least) now knows the supernatural world is real. It will be interesting to see how things fall out from that.

Harry is no longer a member of the White Council. I have to admit, while they are wrong (so far) I can see their logic, and it's hard to argue against it if we didn't have knowledge that they didn't.

[Dragonus45]

I have so many thoughts, and then more thoughts, and things to say but it's all a bit numb right now.
The Murphy thing seems off, yea being in Valhalla is cool but considering she seemed to have other ideas about afterlives in her life I'm surprised she didn't go through the door. I wonder if she got to meet her dad at least since we know he is out there doing dead cop stuff.

[The Glyphstone]

A fantastic read that more than made up for the lackluster feel of Peace Talks.

This was a nonstop succession of The Cavalry Has Arrived, like that one scene in The Two Towers repeated on loop for an hour.

So, I wasn't surprised Murphy died at all myself, though that was mostly because I'm cynical enough to assume anyone Harry hooks up with will die or disappear from the story. He's just not allowed to be happy, and being with Murph would have grounded him too much. So as soon as there was hints of them becoming a couple at the end of Skin Game, I knew she was a goner.

Hendricks actually hurt more in the moment, because he was a surprise.

The Einherjaren thing for them both also feels off, though the 'until everyone who knew her is gone' clause thrown in to prevent her from re-entering the story' felt more arbitrary than anything. I was expecting her to end up with Jack Murphy in Between, or possibly replacing him if his unfinished business was watching over her.

I also noticed that his year of mourning, and the year it will take for Listens-To-Wind to convince "them" to spill the beans to Harry about the whole Starborn meta-plot, conveniently line up neatly for exciting things to happen. But that'll be next book.

[tomandtish]

A fantastic read that more than made up for the lackluster feel of Peace Talks.

This was a nonstop succession of The Cavalry Has Arrived, like that one scene in The Two Towers repeated on loop for an hour.

So, I wasn't surprised Murphy died at all myself, though that was mostly because I'm cynical enough to assume anyone Harry hooks up with will die or disappear from the story. He's just not allowed to be happy, and being with Murph would have grounded him too much. So as soon as there was hints of them becoming a couple at the end of Skin Game, I knew she was a goner.

Hendricks actually hurt more in the moment, because he was a surprise.

The Einherjaren thing for them both also feels off, though the 'until everyone who knew her is gone' clause thrown in to prevent her from re-entering the story' felt more arbitrary than anything. I was expecting her to end up with Jack Murphy in Between, or possibly replacing him if his unfinished business was watching over her.

I also noticed that his year of mourning, and the year it will take for Listens-To-Wind to convince "them" to spill the beans to Harry about the whole Starborn meta-plot, conveniently line up neatly for exciting things to happen. But that'll be next book.


Again, to me...

It's not so much Murph dying. It's how she died. As far as meaningless deaths go, this one ranks up there. Unless he got killed Harry was always going to outlive her by centuries. But this death hurts more because of how pointless it was.

I do admit, I'll miss Hendricks, Wild Bill and Yukie (the latter two I know as much through comics as the books).

Molly came out to her dad, and discovered he already knew about her new job.

Brings up something else....

Molly can't have sex (at a minimum no intercourse, and possibly nothing). Is it just me or does this throw what Maeve offered Harry into a whole new light?

[lowfyr]

Have to agree. My copy came in at 11:00pm last night. I was done by 1 am.

The obvious:

They killed Murphy? And not even in an epic fight, but because Rudolph can't hold it together and shoots her?!? This broke my heart.

Marcone is paired with Thorned Namshiel. Well, now we know what happened to at least one of the missing coins in Small Favor. Unanswered question: How long after SF did he actually take up the coin? If TN is working a true pairing with Marcone, then Marcone just became at least an order of magnitude more dangerous.

Chicago (at least) now knows the supernatural world is real. It will be interesting to see how things fall out from that.

Harry is no longer a member of the White Council. I have to admit, while they are wrong (so far) I can see their logic, and it's hard to argue against it if we didn't have knowledge that they didn't.

She got at least one more cool moment before getting killed for the time being. And her not getting killed by the titan works for me.

Looks like he used the coin for some time now. At least for working out the relationship between them.
And they seem to have a equal partnership for now.

Regarding the White Council. Not a surprise with the than active Members of the Senior Council. Timing is everything. As soon as the blocking people were not able to vote Harry was gone.
That they left him hanging so he chose the least bad option and that he saved McCoy doing it, they not surprisingly ignored as usual.
The next meeting between Harry and a Wizard will be interesting. Seeing how Ramirez now regards him, most of the rest of them may get openly hostil to him.

[Keltest]

I honestly think the White Council is going to implode here in the next couple of books. Theyre surrendering too much control here, taking too much attrition. They arent protecting the minor practitioners of the Paranet, that was Harry and co mostly. They arent looking out for their own members now, but rather tossing them to the wolves when it gets inconvenient. They gave Harry a job, and then went behind his back when he was busy doing the job they gave him and kicked him out for doing the job. Maybe its Nemesis being stuck in the heads of some of the members, but honestly it seems like the wizards are just legitimately stupid. In that light, its no wonder that most of the rest of the supernatural community regards them as being idiots with a dangerous weapon.

[lowfyr]

I think so too. And I see no one able to stop that. Not the Merlin for sure.

[Sloanzilla]

Great Read. More later but


The Justine thing? It breaks my heart. The true love that drove Thomas through most of the series was fake. In fact, I'm surprised that didn't mess up the various White Court powers. Think about how many plot points Justine was involved with over the past, what 12 books (plus several side books) None of that was her.

Murphy was well done, IMO, but utterly not a surprise. I think the whole point to her going out that way was well made.

[Keltest]

Great Read. More later but


The Justine thing? It breaks my heart. The true love that drove Thomas through most of the series was fake. In fact, I'm surprised that didn't mess up the various White Court powers. Think about how many plot points Justine was involved with over the past, what 12 books (plus several side books) None of that was her.

Murphy was well done, IMO, but utterly not a surprise. I think the whole point to her going out that way was well made.


Worse, it wasnt fake. Thomas and the other White Court vamps still couldnt touch Justine without suffering. Its only acts of true mutual love that inflict pain. Its really unclear how much active control a Nemesis agent takes when they infect somebody as a sleeper, but Cat Sith's infection implied that the original being's consciousness and personality are still there, as did Maeve's.

Something that struck me is that the Nemesis infection, which causes beings to act against their nature, may have actually been responsible for Justine's seemingly full recovery from Thomas' near lethal feeding of her. That was never really given any explanation that i can recall other than just being odd.

[dps]

Wow. I must be the only one that found Battleground enormously disappointing. I'll go into detail about that later; maybe I need to do a re-read first to see what I'm missing that everyone else sees.

[Sloanzilla]

I feel like he took some risks and they mostly paid off. I need to do a slower read as well, as I hit a couple points where I think I missed something.

I thought Justine was a captive of Demonreach now until the final chapter. Didn't Alfred grab her?

One interesting thing I noticed is that there are basically NO badass normal characters left now. Hendricks and Murph are dead. Marcone is a half demon. Justine is possessed. I'd always kind of liked the idea of a few characters finding a way to survive in the magical world, even without magic, but that no longer seems to be the case. Also, isn't Marcone's Demon allied with Nemesis?

I just wish Harry and Ivy had had one conversation!

I'm also confused about Butters' sword. I thought it only cut through evil monsters....but he also used it to cut down a bridge?

[GloatingSwine]

I feel like he took some risks and they mostly paid off. I need to do a slower read as well, as I hit a couple points where I think I missed something.

I thought Justine was a captive of Demonreach now until the final chapter. Didn't Alfred grab her?

One interesting thing I noticed is that there are basically NO badass normal characters left now. Hendricks and Murph are dead. Marcone is a half demon. Justine is possessed. I'd always kind of liked the idea of a few characters finding a way to survive in the magical world, even without magic, but that no longer seems to be the case. Also, isn't Marcone's Demon allied with Nemesis?

I just wish Harry and Ivy had had one conversation!

I'm also confused about Butters' sword. I thought it only cut through evil monsters....but he also used it to cut down a bridge?




Alfred can't imprison things without Harry binding them, that was kinda the whole plot of the book....

It could rough up the Walker and eject it forcibly from the island, but it's the jailer not the judge.

[Keltest]

I feel like he took some risks and they mostly paid off. I need to do a slower read as well, as I hit a couple points where I think I missed something.

I thought Justine was a captive of Demonreach now until the final chapter. Didn't Alfred grab her?

One interesting thing I noticed is that there are basically NO badass normal characters left now. Hendricks and Murph are dead. Marcone is a half demon. Justine is possessed. I'd always kind of liked the idea of a few characters finding a way to survive in the magical world, even without magic, but that no longer seems to be the case. Also, isn't Marcone's Demon allied with Nemesis?

I just wish Harry and Ivy had had one conversation!

I'm also confused about Butters' sword. I thought it only cut through evil monsters....but he also used it to cut down a bridge?



Butter's sword can cut through nonliving objects just fine, save for the other Swords. Its specifically mortal flesh it ignores, and even that isn't universal, as it burned Harry when he was attacking Rudolph.

[GloatingSwine]

Butter's sword can cut through nonliving objects just fine, save for the other Swords. Its specifically mortal flesh it ignores, and even that isn't universal, as it burned Harry when he was attacking Rudolph.

It's not so much mortal flesh, as good people. When Harry was in the middle of trying to murder Rudolph, he was giving in to Winter and becoming less human and distinctly less good. The sword burning him then was a warning, that he was turning himself into one of the things it stands against.

Winter can't force Harry to change, but it can exploit his weaknesses to get him to change himself. He nearly did then.

[Sloanzilla]

Alfred can't imprison things without Harry binding them, that was kinda the whole plot of the book....

It could rough up the Walker and eject it forcibly from the island, but it's the jailer not the judge.

Well, I mean Alfred beats up Walker, then Harry Imprisons, etc. Anyhow, I found that chapter to be a little confusing!

[dps]

I thought Justine was a captive of Demonreach now until the final chapter. Didn't Alfred grab her?

One interesting thing I noticed is that there are basically NO badass normal characters left now. Hendricks and Murph are dead. Marcone is a half demon. Justine is possessed. I'd always kind of liked the idea of a few characters finding a way to survive in the magical world, even without magic, but that no longer seems to be the case. Also, isn't Marcone's Demon allied with Nemesis?



I don't think Justine even went ashore on Demonreach. Harry had told her that she would be OK as long as he arrived with her, but then when he figured out she had been possessed, he bailed off the boat. Harry wasn't prepared to bind Nemesis, so he knew that Alfred would expel Justine if she went ashore. It's possible that she went ashore and was ejected, but more likely she just bugged out to the south end of Lake Michigan and abandoned the boat.

As for no badass normal characters being left, yeah, that was actually one of my problems with the book. There are a few characters who would qualify if they were given more focus--Bradley would seem to fit the part, maybe Nick Christian or Vince Graver if we ever see them again, Rawlins certainly if he plays a bigger role in the future, and Riley. Given the upcoming forced marriage of Harry to Lara, I'd guess that Riley would be the best bet to play a bigger part going forward.

[Gnoman]

There's the Men In Black we haven't seen anything of, which are probably mostly mortal. Going back a few books, there's that FBI agent from Changes, I always felt like he was being set up for something. Plus the surviving Defenders of Chicago, though I don't remember if Randy was killed.

[Sloanzilla]

oh yeah, and there was basically confirmation that Mac is a Watcher Angel

[Foeofthelance]

Molly can't have sex (at a minimum no intercourse, and possibly nothing). Is it just me or does this throw what Maeve offered Harry into a whole new light? [/SPOILER]

Spoilered because the question was.

Not particularly. Harry was getting warned constantly that people would be looking to trip him up so they could legally gut him. Maeve taking him out via whatever her mantle's self-defense condition is would have just been chalked up to that. "Shame about the Winter Knight, if only he'd been more of a gentleman."

On one hand, fully expected to lose Murphy. On the other hand, didn't quite expect her to lose her like this. On the octokong's hand, I think it actually makes a certain kind of sense. Killing Murphy in a fight might have actually robbed some of the drama from it. We've been steadily watching her lose ground to the rest of the cast, but she didn't quite have Michael's willingness to hang up the sword. Whereas this actually gives a bit more punch to us finally losing her.

[Sloanzilla]

To be kind of cold blooded, I felt like Butcher has been itching to move on from Murphy for a few books now, what with the nearly constant Lara shiptease. He needed an emotional punch in this one. Thomas was no longer an option. He's also been wanting to reinforce the "humans are still the biggest threat" thing, AND give Harry a morality test, so the nature of her death probably met multiple goals.

[Lord Raziere]

............Okay. Read it.

That was.....a lot of things that happened. things that I'm still processing.

geez Jim, like did you set out to live up to your last name in this book or something? did you just wake up one day and decide "y'know I'm named Jim Butcher, lets make the name fitting and just display death in all its gruesome forms constantly, shockingly and as large amounts as possible" I mean I know.....WAR but man was a lot things that happened, and Murphy's DEAD. Murphy who has been there from the beginning is just.....dead.

and that whole Ethniu fight was like so long and so many powerful people getting slapped around one after another....truly an epic mythology fight, I think the only way you could visualize the whole thing would be an anime fight, because that is what it felt like. Ethniu might as well have been Freeza, Madara or Father from FMA with way she took on basically everyone and the army they brought with them.

and of course Marcone doesn't die because he is a hell knight now. no justice in this world.

Justine turns out to be possessed by a cthulhu monster. and is pregnant and probably imprisoned by demonreach. Ouch.

then Harry gets set to be married off to Lara while Murphy's grave is still fresh. Oucher.

and just to add insult to injury, the White council has finally voted off Harry and now he is longer apart of their organization. Oucherer. Michael even swears like a sailor in a dozen different languages over it. What.

So um the results of all this:
-Thomas is imprisoned with no known way to treat him
-Justine is either imprisoned or somewhere else
-Murphy is DEAAAAAAAD
-Harry will be Lara's husband in one year's time. thus he has followed in his mothers footsteps entirely.
-White Council are more against Harry than ever
-despite it all the authorities are STILL trying to cover this up.
-oh and apparently Dracula's dad is a thing and got out alive. GREAT.
-lots of death
-basically the only good thing that come out of any of this was that Maggie and the Carpenters still live and world still functions. everything else either got worse or failed to be solved at all.

on the bright side in the christmas short story.....Harry got a mug that reminds him of his father and Maggie.....got an Elsa Ring. complete with the song. hooraaaay...? saddest Let it Goooooo.....

[dps]

.
Justine is either imprisoned or somewhere else




Well, in fairness, you could say that about almost anyone. :smallbiggrin:

[Chen]

Well, in fairness, you could say that about almost anyone. :smallbiggrin:

Didnt Lara confirm Justine got away at the end? Theres no mention she may be imprisoned on the island

[InvisibleBison]

It occurred to me that Drakul identifying himself as a starborn might help nail down the timeline, but according to Wikipedia he was born "before 1395", and thus Harry would be born before 2061, which I'm pretty sure we already knew. This does suggest that Drakul was likely already a blampire before his historical "life", though.

[Sloanzilla]

What if Chandler is the British gentleman beneath Demonreach? He was teleported to another time and place and became super evil and powerful. I know the only evidence is that they are both British, but that would be kind of cool.

[dps]

What if Chandler is the British gentleman beneath Demonreach? He was teleported to another time and place and became super evil and powerful. I know the only evidence is that they are both British, but that would be kind of cool.

Personally, I've figured it was the original Merlin, though why he would speak with a modern British accent doesn't really fit, I suppose.

[Gnoman]

It occurred to me that Drakul identifying himself as a starborn might help nail down the timeline, but according to Wikipedia he was born "before 1395", and thus Harry would be born before 2061, which I'm pretty sure we already knew. This does suggest that Drakul was likely already a blampire before his historical "life", though.


Harry Dresden is stated to be 37 in Cold Days. In Small Favor, Harry mentions that Bob had been hounding him to see "that pirate movie", and became obsessed after he did. If they're referring to the first Pirates Of The Caribbean (as suggested by "that pirate movie" instead of "the newest pirate movie" (which would have been the third film in 2007)), that would suggest 2003. IIRC, each book between there and Cold Days suggests the events of the previous one as happening "last year". That would put Cold Days as 2007-2008, making Harry be born 1969-1971, and Drakul being from 1303-1305 if he was from the last generation of starborn.

[Rakaydos]

I see a few of you are saying that the bit where she cant come back while anyone she knows is around is a cop out.

But that's not what the valkyrie said. "Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her."

She will be out of the picture for years, of course, but when the Stars& Stones book (Or Hell's Bells or Black Night) happens, she's totally coming back, out of nowhere.

It's too far back to look up easilly in my kindle, but when Molly brings dresden's cloak and tells him to get dressed, there's a locker room scene with dresden and marcone. I had spoiled myself enough to hear about Thorned Namshel, and that scene felt like Marcone making sure that if he gave in to the Fallen, if he became not his own man, that he had someone who would end the being he had become. Harry has had several people like that in his life.

Also, isnt Thorned Namashiel the one who ran off with all the coins? And suspected to be the one who invaded Arctus Tor in Proven Guilty? Suspected to be a Fallen with Nemisis?

[tomandtish]

I see a few of you are saying that the bit where she cant come back while anyone she knows is around is a cop out.

But that's not what the valkyrie said. "Not until the memory of her has faded from the minds of those who knew her."

She will be out of the picture for years, of course, but when the Stars& Stones book (Or Hell's Bells or Black Night) happens, she's totally coming back, out of nowhere.

It's too far back to look up easilly in my kindle, but when Molly brings dresden's cloak and tells him to get dressed, there's a locker room scene with dresden and marcone. I had spoiled myself enough to hear about Thorned Namshel, and that scene felt like Marcone making sure that if he gave in to the Fallen, if he became not his own man, that he had someone who would end the being he had become. Harry has had several people like that in his life.

Also, isnt Thorned Namashiel the one who ran off with all the coins? And suspected to be the one who invaded Arctus Tor in Proven Guilty? Suspected to be a Fallen with Nemisis?

Suspected, but not proven that he did Arctus Tor. Also, Namshiel apparently picked Harry's Pocket, but his body was slain so the Knights had his coin (so they thought). So the big question was who got the bag from Namshiel. Which probably explains Marcone.

There's a Jim approved timeline on his website here (https://www.jim-butcher.com/timeline), with notes that somethings had to be fudged/retconned. There are obviously spoilers in the timeline itself, but Harry is born October 31. he's 25 years old at the beginning of Storm Front, and Peace Talks/Battlefront take place 14 years later.

[Rakaydos]

From the timeline posted above:

4-6 BSF: The most recent version of the Unseelie Accords is signed 10-12 years before Proven Guilty [PG 127]. Thanks to Tepick! I wonder if this coincides with the Unseelie Incursion of 1994?

If we take that as a rosetta stone for real world/BSF date conversion...

26 BSF, October 31: Harry is born. This would be 1972-1974.

Drakul, then would have been born 1306-1308 (which would put the"real world" timeline off by about 85 years)

640-642 AD has a starborn year
24-26 BC is also a starborn year.

[Sloanzilla]

Got this one from Reddit, but based on the crone description when he uses it, the Blackstaff was loaned from or stolen from Mother Winter.

[Gnoman]

That theory's been around awhil, but this is additional support.

[Artemis97]

I thought it was pretty much stated that Mother Winter's walking stick was the Blackstaff? That's like... canon as far as I'm concerned.

[lowfyr]

It occurred to me that Drakul identifying himself as a starborn might help nail down the timeline, but according to Wikipedia he was born "before 1395", and thus Harry would be born before 2061, which I'm pretty sure we already knew. This does suggest that Drakul was likely already a blampire before his historical "life", though.

Drakul is Draculas Father so we do not know than he was born.

[dps]

OK, did a re-read, and I do like the book better second time around. I think I want to read it a 3rd time before commenting in depth, though.

[Sloanzilla]

Has anyone drawn up a battle map from this book? That would be awesome.

[Caledonian]

I am increasingly of the opinion that Rudolph was one of the children (mentioned in "Zoo Days") who weren't prepared for the attack of the fear creeps, had part of their soul devoured, and are never quite right ever again.

[Rakaydos]

I am increasingly of the opinion that Rudolph was one of the children (mentioned in "Zoo Days") who weren't prepared for the attack of the fear creeps, had part of their soul devoured, and are never quite right ever again.

There's been scientific studies that have found a measurable difference in how people prioritize fear as a reaction.

http://thescienceexplorer.com/humanity/neuroscience-reveals-differences-between-republican-and-democrat-brains

[georgie_leech]

So, plenty of heady plot stuff and all that. Did anyone else catch the hints that Captain Hook might be a tooth fairy? She sure has a thing for chompers.

[Eurus]

I'm not sure how I felt about this one! It felt... a little bit over the top. I mean, I guess that's the point, but it was kind of fatiguing.

Murphy's death felt inevitable, another casualty of Harry's Peter Parker Curse. I really don't like Lara and the White Court, they're like the epitome of the worst rapey parts of the books but they're Polite and Pretty so the wizards put up with them... so I'm not thrilled about her getting shipped with Harry.

Some of the characters, like Ivy, felt like fanservice cameos since they didn't really do much except one flashy appearance. Marcone taking a coin makes some sense in setting, but it's super disappointing since he was the ultimate "nonmagical mortal with enough skill to be relevant anyway" alongside Murphy.

Justine being possessed was a gut punch but I didn't notice any foreshadowing. Also, did she explain how she actually got Thomas to attack the embassy? It seems like that would be a tough thing to just drop into conversation. "Hey honey, while you're out..."

[The Glyphstone]

I'm not sure how I felt about this one! It felt... a little bit over the top. I mean, I guess that's the point, but it was kind of fatiguing.

Murphy's death felt inevitable, another casualty of Harry's Peter Parker Curse. I really don't like Lara and the White Court, they're like the epitome of the worst rapey parts of the books but they're Polite and Pretty so the wizards put up with them... so I'm not thrilled about her getting shipped with Harry.

Some of the characters, like Ivy, felt like fanservice cameos since they didn't really do much except one flashy appearance. Marcone taking a coin makes some sense in setting, but it's super disappointing since he was the ultimate "nonmagical mortal with enough skill to be relevant anyway" alongside Murphy.

Justine being possessed was a gut punch but I didn't notice any foreshadowing. Also, did she explain how she actually got Thomas to attack the embassy? It seems like that would be a tough thing to just drop into conversation. "Hey honey, while you're out..."


She apparently threatened Justine's life and the life of the child, from what I remember of the dialogue.

[Eurus]

She apparently threatened Justine's life and the life of the child, from what I remember of the dialogue.


Huh.

That makes sense, I guess, but it's weird that Thomas wouldn't try to warn Harry more directly. I mean, he did try to warn Harry, so if he was being threatened to not get Harry involved he was obviously willing to risk it, but he did it in a really half-assed way.

[georgie_leech]

Huh.

That makes sense, I guess, but it's weird that Thomas wouldn't try to warn Harry more directly. I mean, he did try to warn Harry, so if he was being threatened to not get Harry involved he was obviously willing to risk it, but he did it in a really half-assed way.

"Go do this thing right now or else."

"Don't I get a chance to prepare?"

"No, otherwise you'll involve that wizard that keeps foiling our plans."

"Alright, this is gonna be a big deal so I figure there's a 50/50 shot he'll be involved anyway."

[Mith]

Finished Battle Grounds. It definitely works better to tie up the threads of Peace Talks.

As far as Murphy dying, while her becoming a Valkyrie is a bit odd to me as she's a Catholic, but I am not surprised. I also feel like she shouldn't have died in the middle of the battle. You then have Harry yo-yoing between grief and his regular wisecracks until the end.

You want Murphy to die? Make her the one consolidating and managing the safeholds while Harry takes on his other work.
You still have your Jotun slaying scene and everything. After the dust starts settling, have some forces dug in around safeholds to be cleared out, one that contained Rudy. Play the rest of the scene as originally done. She's then the last allied casualty. You don't have this yoyoing, and instead you have "Harry deals with grief" in one smooth arc.

Granted, the Dresden Files is terrible at having mostly female named characters die (heck and I am pretty sure most unnamed character deaths are women to if we look back at say the Hobbs attack in Small Favor). But that is nothing new.

The possession did have some foreshadowing in my opinion (but I figured Justine was tied up in Thomas' actions somehow). What is odd though is that it is He Who Walks Beside that is possessing her. If it was Behind, that would have been a waaay better callback, as that Walker was summoned on Raith estates back in Blood Rites and just grabbed Justine while she was semi comatose at the Manor.

[The Glyphstone]

My best guess is that it's not part of Behind's thing to be subtle. We've seen Behind 'bodily' in Harry's flashback from Ghost Story, and when it possessed someone in White Knight, it was grotesquely noticeable. More likely, each of the Walkers interacts with Reality differently; Walks Before was the blunt-instrument who fought head-on and up-front with raw power/an army, Walks Behind is a stalker/ambusher (no idea how its weird power works against multiple enemies), Walks Beside is an infiltrator/possessor, and might not even have an incarnate form like Behind and Before do.

[Mith]

My best guess is that it's not part of Behind's thing to be subtle. We've seen Behind 'bodily' in Harry's flashback from Ghost Story, and when it possessed someone in White Knight, it was grotesquely noticeable. More likely, each of the Walkers interacts with Reality differently; Walks Before was the blunt-instrument who fought head-on and up-front with raw power/an army, Walks Behind is a stalker/ambusher (no idea how its weird power works against multiple enemies), Walks Beside is an infiltrator/possessor, and might not even have an incarnate form like Behind and Before do.


Fair point. It just occured to me that that would have been an excellent callback. Especially if Nemesis is the 3 Walkers as a whole (or all of Outside), and that summoning a Walker gives them a window to sneak in a few others if the ritual fails. Thus Before and Beside came through in Blood Rites, and were up to things.

I believe there was a joke (that became canon) the Before was riding the corpse of the vampire from White Night, as the pile of rags was his coat. (I believe Jim's commont to the theory was "It is now.")

[Rakaydos]

The possession did have some foreshadowing in my opinion (but I figured Justine was tied up in Thomas' actions somehow). What is odd though is that it is He Who Walks Beside that is possessing her. If it was Behind, that would have been a waaay better callback, as that Walker was summoned on Raith estates back in Blood Rites and just grabbed Justine while she was semi comatose at the Manor.

Behind, Before, and Beside are different walkers with different roles in undermining reality.

He who walks Behind is special forces in the enemy's rear, taking a promising enforcer group under Justin and turning it to his ends. We know he's involved with the entropy curse that killed Maggy LeFey and that the White King was using. But Behind doent take direct action often, relying on others to use rituals and... generally work like the Denarian coins, I guess. He's probably behind the black council, too.

He who walks Before is a General, leading Outsider armies in battle. He's the one who took direct action against Demonreach, and was the only Walker we have seen in physical form.

He who walks Beside is a Spy and Sleeper Agent, the enemy you thought was a friend all along. We know he's involved with Justine, but this is the first we've heard the name.

Other Nemisis instances that arnt explicitly named:
In white night, there's an army of corrupted trolls backed by an outsider. Army says Before,but I'm leaning toward Behind because they were corrupted fey, fitting his MO as looking for local muscle and powering it up.
Morgana's Athame->Leia->Maeve: The promice-of-power aspect is totally Behind's MO. Behind isnt as subtle as Beside. Cait Sith might have been Beside, for the unwilling takeover, but was caught too early to be useful. I'm still leaning toward another instance/photocopy of Behind though. If Cait Sith was Behind, the "Assume direct control" aspect is a notable aspect of his abilities... and possibly what leia's "cure" was meant to overcome.
Did I miss any?

[georgie_leech]

Did I miss any?

We actually do see Behind take something like a physical form. At least, something tore that poor gas station attendant apart.

[The Glyphstone]

It was definitely Beside who possessed Cat Sidhe; "Nemesis" was behind the actions of both Cat and Maeve, along with presumably Aurora, and others like Victor Sells, Leonid Kravos, the Hexenwolf FBI agents, etc. Its signature is beings acting against their nature, which in retrospect is a clue pointing towards Justine all along since Nemesis said it infected her shortly after becoming Lara's aide. My guess is that it functions like a hive-mind in lieu of the physical bodies that its siblings could take; spreading like a virus into multiple hosts with the option of Assuming Direct Control if it must.

[Keltest]

Personally ive been working under the theory that the Outsiders are a hive mind for a while now. The walkers arent individuals, but simply facets of the overall Outsider personality that it uses to refer to different actions and bodies that it uses.

[Gnoman]

Finished Battle Grounds. It definitely works better to tie up the threads of Peace Talks.

As far as Murphy dying, while her becoming a Valkyrie is a bit odd to me as she's a Catholic, but I am not surprised. I also feel like she shouldn't have died in the middle of the battle. You then have Harry yo-yoing between grief and his regular wisecracks until the end.

You want Murphy to die? Make her the one consolidating and managing the safeholds while Harry takes on his other work.
You still have your Jotun slaying scene and everything. After the dust starts settling, have some forces dug in around safeholds to be cleared out, one that contained Rudy. Play the rest of the scene as originally done. She's then the last allied casualty. You don't have this yoyoing, and instead you have "Harry deals with grief" in one smooth arc.

Granted, the Dresden Files is terrible at having mostly female named characters die (heck and I am pretty sure most unnamed character deaths are women to if we look back at say the Hobbs attack in Small Favor). But that is nothing new.





Murphy dying offscreen and only found in the aftermath kind of ruins the entirety of her arc and keeps her from being a catalyst for Harry nearly going evil. She didn't die in battle - no heroic last stand, no dying for a purpose. She was killed by a petty and worthless corrupt cop who just could not set aside his vendetta against her (implied to be a result of him refusing to accept that the loup-garou was real) and was so incompetent that he shot her by mistake. This is the same cop that's been after her for several books and essentially ruined her life. Ultimately, her death was from HER decisions and HER enemy, even if Harry was wrapped up in it.

Meanwhile, her death would have had a very different effect on Harry if he hadn't watched her die. He'd have mourned, certainly, but he wouldn't have been thrown into the killing rage that almost took him over the edge. Nor would it have affected him in the battle the way he did, with him agonizing over every death in his army after he raised the banner of the Winter Knight. This would have prevented his epiphany that the real danger to his humanity wasn't the possibility of going over the edge (which he was already wary of), but the slow accumulation of emotional scars from what he must endure in his role (which he'd already been going through before taking up the Mantle and was almost entirely unaware of). I suspect this will have major character development effects going forward.

[TeChameleon]

So, I got it, and blitzed through it in one sitting, pretty much... and wow. That was quite the ride. And the body count :smallconfused:

One thing that nobody else has brought up... did Cristos die? He got splatted by Ethniu, but so did McCoy, and he survived. Cristos going out in this battle would have some fairly major plot ramifications. He was the number one suspect for the Black Council mole; if he's dead (and Harry and crew were right about him), then things are falling apart, hard for the Black Council as well as the White Council. The Grey Council and the Paranet may end up being the last of the supernatural folk on the human side of the fence full stop...

'Sneak attack by Toot' may end up being one of my favourite baddie-disposal methods in the series, as a random aside. Mavra certainly learned a lesson she won't be forgetting in a hurry...

[dps]

So, I got it, and blitzed through it in one sitting, pretty much... and wow. That was quite the ride. And the body count :smallconfused:

One thing that nobody else has brought up... did Cristos die? He got splatted by Ethniu, but so did McCoy, and he survived. Cristos going out in this battle would have some fairly major plot ramifications. He was the number one suspect for the Black Council mole; if he's dead (and Harry and crew were right about him), then things are falling apart, hard for the Black Council as well as the White Council. The Grey Council and the Paranet may end up being the last of the supernatural folk on the human side of the fence full stop...

'Sneak attack by Toot' may end up being one of my favourite baddie-disposal methods in the series, as a random aside. Mavra certainly learned a lesson she won't be forgetting in a hurry...

Actually, I think that I posted that IMO Cristos is dead, because we later see McCoy and Listens-to-Winds getting medical attention, but not him. Also, I don't think that he was Black Council after all; he may have been an unwitting pawn of them, but I don't think he was knowingly working for them

[Braininthejar2]

a loose thought.

If it was the dying curse on Harry that caused Rudolf's behaviour, would MAb's decision endanger Lara?

[dps]

a loose thought.

If it was the dying curse on Harry that caused Rudolf's behaviour, would MAb's decision endanger Lara?

Keep in mind what his dad's ghost told Harry--Snake Boy wasted his curse, 'cause everyone dies alone, but you don't have to be alone until then.

Rudolph's behavior was caused by Rudolph being an idiot.

[Mith]

Murphy dying offscreen and only found in the aftermath kind of ruins the entirety of her arc and keeps her from being a catalyst for Harry nearly going evil. She didn't die in battle - no heroic last stand, no dying for a purpose. She was killed by a petty and worthless corrupt cop who just could not set aside his vendetta against her (implied to be a result of him refusing to accept that the loup-garou was real) and was so incompetent that he shot her by mistake. This is the same cop that's been after her for several books and essentially ruined her life. Ultimately, her death was from HER decisions and HER enemy, even if Harry was wrapped up in it.

Meanwhile, her death would have had a very different effect on Harry if he hadn't watched her die. He'd have mourned, certainly, but he wouldn't have been thrown into the killing rage that almost took him over the edge. Nor would it have affected him in the battle the way he did, with him agonizing over every death in his army after he raised the banner of the Winter Knight. This would have prevented his epiphany that the real danger to his humanity wasn't the possibility of going over the edge (which he was already wary of), but the slow accumulation of emotional scars from what he must endure in his role (which he'd already been going through before taking up the Mantle and was almost entirely unaware of). I suspect this will have major character development effects going forward.



I'm not thinking she dies off screen. Still have her death scene almost as played out. I would just have her die at the end of the book so that you don't have Harry go back to wisecrackinv only to ckme back to it at the end.

My alternative scene just has her die at the end helping to guard safe houses. So you have her death followed by the wrapping up of the book. My issue isn't tge scene itself, but it's placement.

[Tyndmyr]

Murphy thoughts:

I don't much like the emphasis on not killing Rudolph. The guy is, by this point, pretty clearly not innocent. It doesn't *seem* as if anything magical caused it, and any explanation that way seems like kind of an unlikely explanation. It sort of feels like the sort of false logic where a hero mows down minions by the dozen, but spares the villain to "prove his humanity" or something stupid.

When someone who's been your long time adversary advances to straight up killing folks despite your best efforts to talk them down, that's about the time to put a bullet in them, if not before.

I'm not suprised by Murphy's death, but the whole situaton doesn't feel like it fits quite right.

[Keltest]

Murphy thoughts:

I don't much like the emphasis on not killing Rudolph. The guy is, by this point, pretty clearly not innocent. It doesn't *seem* as if anything magical caused it, and any explanation that way seems like kind of an unlikely explanation. It sort of feels like the sort of false logic where a hero mows down minions by the dozen, but spares the villain to "prove his humanity" or something stupid.

When someone who's been your long time adversary advances to straight up killing folks despite your best efforts to talk them down, that's about the time to put a bullet in them, if not before.

I'm not suprised by Murphy's death, but the whole situaton doesn't feel like it fits quite right.

Theres a double point being made. The first is that killing Rudolph outright like that is murder. He totally deserves it, but Murphy in particular was a big believer in the rightness of the system, and while he WILL get his comeuppance, it has to come about the right way. The second is that Harry is about to kill somebody with black magic. Thats super badness, as explained just about every time the very concept of a warlock comes up. An extension of this, perhaps, is that Harry bas basically torturing Rudolph to death. Thats not right no matter what he's done, hence the Sword burning him.

[Gnoman]

Murphy thoughts:

I don't much like the emphasis on not killing Rudolph. The guy is, by this point, pretty clearly not innocent. It doesn't *seem* as if anything magical caused it, and any explanation that way seems like kind of an unlikely explanation. It sort of feels like the sort of false logic where a hero mows down minions by the dozen, but spares the villain to "prove his humanity" or something stupid.

When someone who's been your long time adversary advances to straight up killing folks despite your best efforts to talk them down, that's about the time to put a bullet in them, if not before.

I'm not suprised by Murphy's death, but the whole situaton doesn't feel like it fits quite right.

Killing Rudolph would have been murder. They weren't fighting, Rudy wouldn't have been the slightest threat to Harry at that point, and the purpose was not to defend but to punish. Harry Dresden is not a judge in the mortal world, nor is he an appointed executioner there. He had no more right to execute Rudolph than Rudolph had to kill Murphy. There is a massive difference between killing someone in battle, and killing that same person after they have surrendered - this is shown as a major in-universe concept when Murphy shatters the Sword of Faith by trying to execute Nicodemus with it. The fact that Harry was going to execute him with magic makes it an even bigger deal.

Of course, Rudolph's a dead man walking. Even if the mortal authorities don't go after him because there's no evidence, Kincaid is still out there. Murphy and Kincaid fell out after Kincaid shot Harry (at Harry's own request), but that won't change much.

[Braininthejar2]

Keep in mind what his dad's ghost told Harry--Snake Boy wasted his curse, 'cause everyone dies alone, but you don't have to be alone until then.

Rudolph's behavior was caused by Rudolph being an idiot.

And yet, Harry himself remembers the words of the curse in chapter thirty six.

[Keltest]

And yet, Harry himself remembers the words of the curse in chapter thirty six.

Harry has pretty persistently shown to be far more alert to and alarmed by the theoretical potential for Bad Stuff(tm) in the future. This extends to the people around him as well, where he pretty frequently attempts to keep Michael (and others, but mostly Michael) from charging into danger because it would leave his kids without a father. Very rarely is he shown to be unambiguously right in this thinking, and its certainly consistently portrayed as being a pretty negative influence on his positive relationships when it shows up.

[Tyndmyr]

Killing Rudolph would have been murder. They weren't fighting, Rudy wouldn't have been the slightest threat to Harry at that point, and the purpose was not to defend but to punish. Harry Dresden is not a judge in the mortal world, nor is he an appointed executioner there. He had no more right to execute Rudolph than Rudolph had to kill Murphy. There is a massive difference between killing someone in battle, and killing that same person after they have surrendered - this is shown as a major in-universe concept when Murphy shatters the Sword of Faith by trying to execute Nicodemus with it. The fact that Harry was going to execute him with magic makes it an even bigger deal.

Of course, Rudolph's a dead man walking. Even if the mortal authorities don't go after him because there's no evidence, Kincaid is still out there. Murphy and Kincaid fell out after Kincaid shot Harry (at Harry's own request), but that won't change much.



I would expect an almost immediate retaliation. Ie, shot rings out, Rudolph is dead by the time the empty shell casing hits the ground. There doesn't really need to be a chase scene and contemplation of a later murder, just Harry reflexively striking back at a threat, like he has done countless times before.

This wouldn't *eed to be via magic, but if Butcher wanted to work in a reason for why Harry killed people with magic, a reaction to Murphy dying feels like a much better reason than the Octokongs or whatever third rate minions he roasted. Winter Knight reactions coupled with her death probably provides a far stronger motivation than merely wanting to dispose of obstacles.

[Rakaydos]

I would expect an almost immediate retaliation. Ie, shot rings out, Rudolph is dead by the time the empty shell casing hits the ground. There doesn't really need to be a chase scene and contemplation of a later murder, just Harry reflexively striking back at a threat, like he has done countless times before.

This wouldn't *eed to be via magic, but if Butcher wanted to work in a reason for why Harry killed people with magic, a reaction to Murphy dying feels like a much better reason than the Octokongs or whatever third rate minions he roasted. Winter Knight reactions coupled with her death probably provides a far stronger motivation than merely wanting to dispose of obstacles.

While immediate retaliation would be "normal", there are Knights of the Cross on the field, which means Divine Intervention is in play. The white god (and also butcher) needs Harry to pause long enough for his knight to intervene, and so a million coincidences were staged prior to put harry in a mental state where "deserves to suffer" is the "not excercising free will" choice.

[Sloanzilla]

I noticed Lara yelling at Harry at the end of the book for allegedly "not communicating" about Goodman Grey guarding Justine.

However, he specifically tells her he was doing just that in Peace Talks. Maybe she just doesn't listen to him.

[Keltest]

I noticed Lara yelling at Harry at the end of the book for allegedly "not communicating" about Goodman Grey guarding Justine.

However, he specifically tells her he was doing just that in Peace Talks. Maybe she just doesn't listen to him.

Its like theyre already married

[GrayDeath]

Phew, that was a wild ride.....


So far a meaningful and powerful book, but I dont think I particlarly LIKE it.



Drakul himself was mentioned back in earlier Books, when it is revealed Kincaid is his Spawn, as "the original Creature", and there is made fun of DraculA running to the BLack Court.
Ergo this being Drakul(san A) made absolutely no Sense whatsoever in that context.

You dont run rebelliously from your father to become...intentionally that is, just as him.

Secondly he hawkes at least 3 times of the Erlking being "a powerful Vassal of Mab".
He isnt. he is Wild Fae.
He is clearly being "hired" by Mab for this gig, ergo her subordinate in this War, but not in general her Vassal any more than Odin is.

These 2, coming before the Schlachtfest stuck me sorely "wrong".

More after a second read these next few days.

[Tyndmyr]

While immediate retaliation would be "normal", there are Knights of the Cross on the field, which means Divine Intervention is in play. The white god (and also butcher) needs Harry to pause long enough for his knight to intervene, and so a million coincidences were staged prior to put harry in a mental state where "deserves to suffer" is the "not excercising free will" choice.


Why would there be any diefic need for this cop, who has been, all told, a bit of a jerk with regularity, and not of significant note otherwise, and not...any of the vast numbers of other people around and dying?

That ends up feeling significantly MORE trope-problematic, because it's literally enforced morality because this dude has a name, and for no other reason.

[Anymage]

Why would there be any diefic need for this cop, who has been, all told, a bit of a jerk with regularity, and not of significant note otherwise, and not...any of the vast numbers of other people around and dying?

That ends up feeling significantly MORE trope-problematic, because it's literally enforced morality because this dude has a name, and for no other reason.

Because if Harry decides that might makes right and that it's his place to remove inconvenient mortals, that becomes incredibly dangerous. Both for him (deciding that you have the right to end a human life because you feel like it is soul damaging, especially if done with magic because of the necessities of intent there) and for the rest of the world (it absolutely sucks for mortals when supernaturals decide that they get to boss others around just because they can). And that's before you get into the whole Starborn thing that makes Harry even more special than any other decently talented wizard.

And then of course there's the thing where God and the knights are all about giving people more chances. Remember that if a denarian gives up the coin mid-fight, they'll hold their blows and accept surrender. They're all about you having the option to make new and better choices tomorrow.

I mean, there's clearly an angle of author tract there, in having the scene exist at all. But in universe, once the knights were in the area, it's entirely in character for them to have done what they did.

[Rakaydos]

Why would there be any diefic need for this cop, who has been, all told, a bit of a jerk with regularity, and not of significant note otherwise, and not...any of the vast numbers of other people around and dying?

That ends up feeling significantly MORE trope-problematic, because it's literally enforced morality because this dude has a name, and for no other reason.

The cop chose his own path- the white god's nature isnt to alter or abridge those choices. But the effect of that confrontation, with the white god's champions so close at hand, was to brand the Winter Knight with a reminder of his humanity, just before raising an army with a psychic link that would make it terribly easy to abandon his humanity.

Ruddolf chose to confront our heros, and be super jittery about it. But the White God was the one who arranged for the gun to accidently go off, with an instantly fatal shot on Murphy. (dont tell me that's not what the white god does- that is EXACTLY his servant Uriel's deal) And why does the White God let bad things happen to good people? A Winter Knight who retains his humanity, the defeat of Walker Beside, Taking an artifact of Hate off the playing field... even a new immortal viking warrioress, available just in time for the final battle, if everyone who knew her gets caught up in events hard enough to forget about her.

[lowfyr]

Killing Rudolph would have been murder. They weren't fighting, Rudy wouldn't have been the slightest threat to Harry at that point, and the purpose was not to defend but to punish. Harry Dresden is not a judge in the mortal world, nor is he an appointed executioner there. He had no more right to execute Rudolph than Rudolph had to kill Murphy. There is a massive difference between killing someone in battle, and killing that same person after they have surrendered - this is shown as a major in-universe concept when Murphy shatters the Sword of Faith by trying to execute Nicodemus with it. The fact that Harry was going to execute him with magic makes it an even bigger deal.

Of course, Rudolph's a dead man walking. Even if the mortal authorities don't go after him because there's no evidence, Kincaid is still out there. Murphy and Kincaid fell out after Kincaid shot Harry (at Harry's own request), but that won't change much.


True Rudolph is lucky that the Archive fired Kincaid because of what happened in Changes. If he had been in his role of her bodyguard, Rudolph would have been killed as soon as Kincaid knew what happened to Murphy.

[Keltest]

True Rudolph is lucky that the Archive fired Kincaid because of what happened in Changes. If he had been in his role of her bodyguard, Rudolph would have been killed as soon as Kincaid knew what happened to Murphy.

Is that actually canon, or just an assumption people are making?

[GrayDeath]

Thats something I`d like to know as well, as sadly there was
Abosulutely NO Interaction between Ivy and Dresden when they met for the first time in years.
Between the now teenaged Superweapon of Knowledge and one of 2 people she really truly loves.

Still very disappointed about that.

[Mith]

Is that actually canon, or just an assumption people are making?

Kincaid being fired?

Jim released some microfiction leading up to Peace Talks (https://www.jim-butcher.com/?s=microfiction&searchsubmit=). Scroll down to Microfiction #3

[GrayDeath]

Fuuugde...

Should have read them earlier.

Poor Kincaid.

That make sme even more furious that
Harry and Ivy did not speak a SINGLE DANG WORD ....ugh

[georgie_leech]

Kincaid being fired?

Jim released some microfiction leading up to Peace Talks (https://www.jim-butcher.com/?s=microfiction&searchsubmit=). Scroll down to Microfiction #3

TIL about the microfictions.

And for #4, oh man, poor Irwin. That move could not have possibly come at a worse time.

[Mith]

TBH, I'll still read the Dresden Files, because I love a lot of the side characters. For example the worldbuilding done with River Shoulders or Mab is excellent. However, some of Jim's handling of characters is why I end ep just skimming a lot of what makes the series the Dresden Files specifically.

[Rakaydos]

You know what's fun? Rereading anything after Grave Peril and watching for anything that's a "coincidence." and figuring out what the White God's plan was. "Moves in mysterious ways", indeed, but with this much story, you can usually piece together the causality.

[lowfyr]

Fuuugde...

Should have read them earlier.

Poor Kincaid.

That make sme even more furious that
Harry and Ivy did not speak a SINGLE DANG WORD ....ugh



It is not outright said, but the implication is that Ivy is still angry with Harry for trying to kill himself. The Archive may understand it on a rational level. Ivy not so much. And I would be surprised if her being alone will not lead to problems in the future. But I would love it more if they repair the damage and move on. If Molly and Harry can do it ....

What happened in the microfiction had so much important stuff in it. I mean Ivy saving Harry was just one another thing. "In the chest or face me" :smalleek:
And I need to reread what role Thorned Namshiel played in her being a prisoner. Would Marcones choice of taking the coin having a potentiel consequence he should have thought about.

[InvisibleBison]

Two thoughts about Harry's upcoming nuptials:
It has been said repeatedly that wizards are staggeringly effective when they have time to prepare for something, and Harry's got an entire year to prepare for this wedding. I can't imagine what he'll come up with, but I'm certain it will be interesting.
Also, Harry's almost certainly got the touch of true love thing going on again, thanks to his relationship with Murphy. If the wedding does actually occur, that's going to cause problems.

And is it really necessary to put everything in spoilers this long after the book's been released?

[Keltest]

Two thoughts about Harry's upcoming nuptials:
It has been said repeatedly that wizards are staggeringly effective when they have time to prepare for something, and Harry's got an entire year to prepare for this wedding. I can't imagine what he'll come up with, but I'm certain it will be interesting.
Also, Harry's almost certainly got the touch of true love thing going on again, thanks to his relationship with Murphy. If the wedding does actually occur, that's going to cause problems.

And is it really necessary to put everything in spoilers this long after the book's been released?

Come to think of it, he may be able to get out of it on the basis of "i cant physically come into contact with her without maiming her. From both a practical and diplomatic standpoint, thats non-ideal."

Not that i think Mab would hesitate to order him to get it on with a changeling or something to fix that, but if he plays his cards right even the potential for spousal burning would make it a poor political marriage.

[Rakaydos]

Come to think of it, he may be able to get out of it on the basis of "i cant physically come into contact with her without maiming her. From both a practical and diplomatic standpoint, thats non-ideal."

Not that i think Mab would hesitate to order him to get it on with a changeling or something to fix that, but if he plays his cards right even the potential for spousal burning would make it a poor political marriage.

The solution is a mandatory batchler party that goes all the way. the bride's family is paying for the hookers.

In practice, though, the white court is the ones who want this alliance. If Harry can keep his **** in his pants, Laura will just have to get through the wedding night without attempting to feed on Harry. And if she cant, her suffering is her own fault, in Mab's eyes. The Knight Mantle would ber perfectly happy consummating the marriage anyway,

[dps]

It just occurred to me that Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.

[InvisibleBison]

It just occurred to me that Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.

I'm pretty sure Mab does know, actually. If I recall correctly, she mentions it at some point when talking about how he'd be her choice for Winter Knight if Harry were to die. I can't remember where she mentions it, though. I think it was before Harry became the Winter Knight, but I'm not sure.

Also, Lara isn't any sort of relation to Harry. They have no parents in common, and Harry was born years after his mother left (escaped from? I'm not sure how consensual their relationship was) Lord Raith.

[Anymage]

It just occurred to me that Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.

Whether or not Mab knows, Harry would be an idiot to speak it aloud. That's not the sort of information you voluntarily reveal to any monster (and let's be clear, most signatories of the accords are monsters of one sort or another) unless you want a target on your half brother's back, you have no idea who around will overhear, and if Mab told anybody about the wedding plans there'd be no way to back down from that without either looking weak or tipping everybody's hand. And as noted Harry and Lara aren't blood relations, so the argument against marriage isn't as strong.

Both sides will have to make allowances for the fact that this is a political marriage and they're mostly expected to keep up appearances. (Like, there's no way it won't be an open marriage because there's no way Harry is agreeing to keep Lara monogamously fed.) But they'll both play along because the costs of doing otherwise are too crazy high.

[GloatingSwine]

It just occurred to me that Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.

That doesn't help her form a political alliance with the White Court. Remember this isn't just Harry Dresden, Wizard marrying Lara, it's also the Winter Knight.

[lowfyr]

It just occurred to me that Mab doesn't know about Thomas and Harry being brothers, does she? That could be Harry's way out of the marriage: "I don't have to marry Lara to forge a blood bond with the White Court or House Raith; Thomas Raith is my half-brother, so I already have a blood tie with them, plus Lara is therefore my step-sister, so EWW." But Mab might not believe it, and Harry might not be any more willing to trust her with that knowledge than he is the White Council.



She said if Harry would have died Thomas would have been next in line. He is a Vampire, but would be human enough for her.

[Rakaydos]

She said if Harry would have died Thomas would have been next in line. He is a Vampire, but would be human enough for her.

human enough for Beside to anticipate his selection, too

[Velaryon]

Took me a couple weeks to get my hands on a copy, and another few days before I had time to read it. But since I was laid up at home a couple days ago with foot problems, I powered through Battle Ground in about a day.

I'm glad to see everything I thought was missing from Peace Talks was indeed here. I think the 400+ pages of action scenes with basically nothing else between them worked a lot better for me in a single sitting than it would if I had been taking it in a chapter at a time over the span of a couple weeks. It'll be interesting to see how I feel about this one on subsequent rereads. It was honestly kind of an exhausting experience - it reminds me of a time in my D&D 3.5 campaign where the party reached the climax of a big story arc - infiltrating the lair of a prominent thieves' guild in a massive maze underneath the city and defeating their leaders and summoned demons - and it ended up with like 2 straight 8-hour or longer sessions of nothing but combat. Very exhausting, but satisfying at the end.

Also, this and Peace Talks were the first time I experienced the books by print before the audio version, because I don't use Audible and my current library doesn't have the audiobooks like my old one did.

There were a lot of twists and surprise reveals in this one. Some I saw coming, some I thought were possible but wasn't sure if I believed would happen, others that took me completely by surprise.

Expected:
-Murphy dying
-some Wardens dying
-Harry getting booted from the White Council (you don't introduce a possibility like that this late in the series and then not go through with it)

Wasn't sure:
-Justine being taken by Nemesis
-Murphy becoming an Einherjaren or Valkyrie after death
-return of Mavra

Blindsided:
-Marcone the Denarian
-all of the Alphas surviving
-the way Murphy was killed
-Drakul (let alone that he's Starborn)
-the betrothal to Lara


A few other random thoughts:

A few things felt disconnected from Peace Talks, such as the Thomas plotline being basically sidelined until the very end, and also the way Harry and Ebenezar were basically cordial again despite McCoy pretty much trying to kill him last book.

Murphy totally got Tara'd, except that the Knights were there to stop Harry from going full Dark Willow. I actually thought this scene was pretty well done, even if I didn't want it to happen.

No mention of Mister in this book, even at the end when Harry reunites with his family. I don't think there's anything significant to this, just something I noticed.

Trying to think of which characters we didn't see in these two books. So far the list I've come up with is Kincaid, the Denarians (minus Thorned Namshiel), the Leanansidhe, Rashid, and Mortimer. Who am I missing?

[The Glyphstone]

What was the Merlin doing in the book? I can't really remember if he was there or not - Cristos seemed to occupy the narrative slot of 'head White Council representative'.

[dps]

What was the Merlin doing in the book? I can't really remember if he was there or not - Cristos seemed to occupy the narrative slot of 'head White Council representative'.

No, he wasn't in this one. Nor was Ancient Mai. Other characters who are still alive but not in this or Peace Talks IIRC (basically limiting to characters who have been in more that one previous full-length book: Luccio, Lord Raith (not that he matters anymore), Helen Beckitt, Mother Summer, Mother Winter, Sarissa, Fix, Eldest Gruff, Stallings, Cowl, Father Forthill, Uriel, Elaine, Abby, Toto, Binder, Daniel. Some of them were mentioned, but didn't actually appear.

[Rakaydos]

"Love isn't the opposite of hate. Love and hate are the same thing pointed in opposite directions."
...and now Dresden has a supernatural hate-nuke... And the Sword of Love.

What are the odds, you think, that Dresden will get them to work together?

[Anymage]

"Love isn't the opposite of hate. Love and hate are the same thing pointed in opposite directions."
...and now Dresden has a supernatural hate-nuke... And the Sword of Love.

What are the odds, you think, that Dresden will get them to work together?

Harry isn't the one who has the sword. Waldo would probably disagree strenuously with Mab's take. And the sword is powered at least as much by divine mojo.

They'll probably both be pointed at the same big target because anything that's worth breaking out that big a gun is also going to get the attention of the knights. (Not to mention every other divine level force.) But they're unlikely to be in the same hands.

If you want to see Harry's version of love that might have to power something, Maggie hasn't been much more than a background figure driving him to be a better person. Force her onto the field, things get super real.

[Rakaydos]

Harry isn't the one who has the sword. Waldo would probably disagree strenuously with Mab's take. And the sword is powered at least as much by divine mojo.

They'll probably both be pointed at the same big target because anything that's worth breaking out that big a gun is also going to get the attention of the knights. (Not to mention every other divine level force.) But they're unlikely to be in the same hands.

If you want to see Harry's version of love that might have to power something, Maggie hasn't been much more than a background figure driving him to be a better person. Force her onto the field, things get super real.

Waldo has the sword of Faith, Sanya has the sword of Hope. What happened to Amoractus/Excalibur after Skin game?

[Keltest]

Waldo has the sword of Faith, Sanya has the sword of Hope. What happened to Amoractus/Excalibur after Skin game?

Presumably Michael still has it while Harry gets himself settled into a new permanent place. Harry is nominally the keeper and gets final say on it.

[GrayDeath]

Presumably Michael still has it while Harry gets himself settled into a new permanent place. Harry is nominally the keeper and gets final say on it.

That.


Sadly the fact the last few books where incredibly "hurry up or die" even for Harrys Adventures (or in Peace Talks case, ignored a lot of stuff in favour of Battle Ground) we still lack 3 or 4 chapters of "Harry sits down to think and decide stuff", which, lets be honest there Jim, we deserve after the alst 4 Books of nonstop "cant leave location X" or "gets booted/ignored/attacked by allies", no?


Mind, after a reread I still think the Book suffers from trying to upstage CHanges, by being even more powerfully dangerous, but letting out the FEEL of Harry, and time/Space for more personal stuff
(still sore about Ivies treatment, grumble)...

[Seerow]

That.


Sadly the fact the last few books where incredibly "hurry up or die" even for Harrys Adventures (or in Peace Talks case, ignored a lot of stuff in favour of Battle Ground) we still lack 3 or 4 chapters of "Harry sits down to think and decide stuff", which, lets be honest there Jim, we deserve after the alst 4 Books of nonstop "cant leave location X" or "gets booted/ignored/attacked by allies", no?


Mind, after a reread I still think the Book suffers from trying to upstage CHanges, by being even more powerfully dangerous, but letting out the FEEL of Harry, and time/Space for more personal stuff
(still sore about Ivies treatment, grumble)...

If it makes you feel better, Butcher seems to agree with this. During a Q&A after BG, he mentioned that he was extending the series again, adding a new book before Mirror Mirror. It's going to be called "Twelve Months" and be basically Harry dealing with the fallout of BG, dealing with the trauma of the non-stop stuff that's been going on for months, and pulling the pieces of his life back together.

Interview here: https://thelegendarium.podbean.com/e/a-conversation-with-jim-butcher/


Transcription courtesy of reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/dresdenfiles/comments/jgvscr/the_next_books_title/)
Jim: ...I'm gonna have to add another book in. I've gotta write, it's gonna a take a novel to deal with the aftermath of what happened in Battle Ground. I think the next novel is gonna be called Twelve Months and it's just gonna be about Dresden-well it's gonna be about more than that because it's a Dresden Files book with the usual insanity but the actual story is Dresden coping with all the damage he's taken over the years. You know that as a writer I'm not a fade to black guy in the Dresden Files, it doesn't happen very often, but it has happened. And every time I've the fade to black and that has happened, for the most part, it fades because Harry's pulling the curtain, because he doesn't share the really bad things with anyone, not even the reader. There are /bad/ things that have happened to Dresden and when bad things happen to you it's cumulative, it adds up. If you don't face it and deal with it it keeps adding up and adding up until it starts causing you psychological problems and difficulties with your friends and issues with your family. If you're out there in the middle of it you've got to be dealing with it, and he hasn't been. And we're gonna have a book about why, and the effects of the things that have happened over the years and the cumulative effects and how you deal with them and get over them.

Todd: Especially now that he's a father, that makes it especially emotionally charged.

Jim: Yeah he can't afford to just sit somewhere and feel sorry for himself or to drive himself to the brink of exhaustion and starvation trying to find a solution to his problems. He can't do that anymore, he's a grown-up, he's got a lot of things he's handling. And yeah, Maggie's the big one, kids change everything. If you've got a kid there waiting for you you can't be the guy that's sitting on the floor wailing poor me, that's not gonna work.

Todd: It's something we've covered in several episodes, how Harry takes all the guilt on himself and how that's not healthy. To see you say that we need something to deal with it, is that something that's been in the works for a long time or is that something that's come across organically kind of as you've written through seventeen books?

Jim: No, I wasn't planning to do a book about trauma and dealing with it, on account of I was busy not dealing with any of my trauma. But yeah when you start learning about it it's like "hey, this is something people need to know." And the idea's gonna be "look, I'm gonna show Dresden coping" and coping isn't always a particularly pretty thing or a noble thing. Nobody's pretty when they're in pain but it happens to all of us at some time or another, horrible things come along. And you've gotta deal with it and how do you deal with it. So partly this next book is going to be Dresden figuring out how to deal with things that are not slobbery monsters trying to chew his face off, those he can manage, he's really good with those, that's doable no problem. All these other issues are a different thing and..

Todd: And he has a wedding to prepare for.

Jim: Yeah, no kidding.

[GrayDeath]

Ah, yes, that does make me feel much better.

So he DOES see where he left stuff out (or harry did) that we need to have happen on screen, and is aiming to solve it. Good.

As for Mirror Mirror. if its not the best book so far, my inner Blind Guardian Fan will revolt!


In case you want to know: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AfNOKQdY-U

Given what the songs about, and what seems to be coming/happening to harry and some other "Good Guys" a great fit me thinks ^^