Highest Saves Possible on a workable Character - with little wiggle room

[GrayDeath]

Hey ya all!

I would like to ask the Playgrounds input on how to build the Character with the highest saves possible that also fulfills the following Limitations:

1.: Must be workable/playeble in a medium OP group from level 6 or 7 onward
2.: Cannot rely on Psychic Reformation/Dark Chaos Shuffle/regular retraining or Wish.
3.: Must be of a Humanoid or half humanoid Race not "always Evil".


Kinda 4 (thats only a "If doable": Should be fun to play for some reason outside its core abilities.


For this, the following 3 House Rules are in Effect:

1.: If a Class has ONLY Alignment or Alignment and Skill requirements, you can ignore the Alignment part as long as you are not OPPOSITE to it (Example is: Paladin, cannot be chaotic or Evil, otherwise go).
2.: Level 4 Caster Classes instead progress Level 6/9 casting if they have been taken before in all but the first Level. Classes that have no casting at all only progress your CL, no spells, no slots, etc.
3.: Use of pathfinders FCB`s is allowed as long as any part of the Race or CLass Mix fits (so for example the Kitsune +DC for enchantments would apply for all levels, not just Kitsune Sorcerer Levels).



So far my basic Idea was Favoured Soul (High saves, Casting), Paladin (for grace), Monk (Saves and Wis/AC), .......profit?


Thank you for your (as usual) friendly and frequent sharing of ideas!

[Doctor Despair]

You could turbo-boost charisma and use the Marshal minor auras to turbo-boost one save at a time

... or take Leadership and make your Marshal cohort do it for you, haha

Edit: That one Martial maneuver to use concentration instead of a will save could be workable

[H_H_F_F]

Not really a strong option, but given your alignment shenanigans, if you're pumping Cha for Paladin, you can go with 2-3 levels of hexblade and 3 levels of blackguard. Cha to saves 3 times.

[RaiKirah]

Along with CHA boosting for Marshal auras to add to saves, if you base it on a Wu Jen gish (Marshal 5/Wu Jen X/PrC to taste) then you'll get access to Body Outside Body and can use your three Marshal Auras through your clones to get CHA to all three saves. Paladin 2/Marshal 3 would get you two auras for CHA to saves twice for all but one save. You would only end up with 8ths, but that could be acceptable for a mid op game. In terms of playability, you could start with Paladin 2/Marshal 1/Wu Jen 3, and then only pick up the other Marshal levels on the back side once you have Body Outside Body.

Going through Sublime Chord with either Recaster or Wyrm Wizard to pick up Body Outside Body opens up a lot more levels if you don't mind some early entry shenanigans to get into Sublime Chord.


EDIT: Taking Mythic Exemplar (Reikhardt) would let you add 4 effective levels of Marshal without actually taking Marshal, which gets you to 3 Minor Auras and 2 Major, which with BoB gets you CHA +1 to all save. Mythic Exemplar is natively 4/10 casting (and stays so if you choose Reikhardt), so with your houserules you could bump that up to 6/10 if I'm reading that right.

[Thurbane]

This thread has a bunch of suggestions about boosting save and getting re-rolls: [3.5] Sir Saves-a-lot (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?587185)


So, I'm giving up on Mettle as a class feature, and the build is looking like this (no flaws at this stage, may be added later if allowed):

Human Cleric 6/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6/Ruathar 1/Fortune's Friend 5

Base saves: Fort +8 Ref +10 Will +16 (Fort is lower than I would have liked)

Feats: EnduranceB, Iron Will, Indomitable Soul, Divine Denial, Heroic Destiny, Lucky Start, Protected Destiny, Survivor's LuckB, Unbelievable Luck, Third Times the CharmB

[Maat Mons]

Sorry, could you explain houserule #2? I'm not sure I'm parsing it correctly.

If you can use Dragon Compendium, the Serenity feat allows you to switch Divine Grace (and other things) to key off of Wisdom. That's great for multiclassing with Cleric or Mystic.

If you stick with Charisma, Hexblade also has an ability that adds it to (many) saves.

Prestige Paladin is a way to get Divine Grace while only losing one caster level, instead of two. But maybe houserule #2 lets you have it with only one caster level lost anyway? Still not sure I'm picking up what you're laying down there.

I wouldn't bother with Monk. Plenty of classes get good Fort and Will, which are the important saves.

[ixrisor]

I think houserule #2 means: 4 spell levels in 20 classes, like paladin, increase spellcasting the same way a prestige class does at all levels except 1st. Non-spellcasting classes increase caster level, but not other spellcasting things.

[AvatarVecna]

For a simpler build with solid saves, Monk 2/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10 gets you to lvl 16 with solid saves the whole way. You end up with lvl 14 casting, BAB +14, Evasion, decent fists to base a DMM Persist build on, and base saves of +14/+11/+10. Pick up a Marshal cohort for boosts.

If you're willing to get tricky and cheesy...Artificer is always a fantastic answer. You can make all your items have a race/alignment/skill requirement, knocking the market price down 50% (not the crafting price, the actual market price), and then further reduced with crafting them yourself rather than buying them. 1000 gp for +1 (resistance), 2000 gp for +1 (any other bonus type), and 3000 gp for +2 (morale) via a Continuous "Conviction" effect, and put them all on one item using the Multiple Similar Abilities rule. Doing that, you could end up with an item like this:

Periapt Of Survival

This item takes up the neck slot, and grants a total of +13 to all saves, split into the following bonuses: +1 (alchemical), +1 (circumstance), +1 (competence), +1 (dodge), +1 (enhancement), +1 (insight), +1 (luck), +2 (morale), +1 (profane), +2 (resistance), and +1 (sacred). It can only be used by a True Neutral Human with 9 ranks in UMD.

Market Price: 7625 gp

Artificer 6 with Extraordinary Artisan, Magical Artisan (Extraordinary Artisan), and Apprentice (Craftsman), who is a member of an Arcane Guild, could craft such an item for 1737.07 gp - a not-insignificant amount of your lvl 6 WBL, but nowhere near the 1.69 million a +13 (resistance) item would cost if you were playing fair.

The great thing about the Periapt Of Survival is that MIC rules means you can pour a little bit more gold in to upgrade a bonus, and you can keep doing that over the course of your career. Lvl 20, you've probably got it fully-upgraded, and it's something like this:

Periapt Of Survival

This item takes up the neck slot, and grants a total of +55 to all saves, split into the following bonuses: +5 (alchemical), +5 (circumstance), +5 (competence), +5 (dodge), +5 (enhancement), +5 (insight), +5 (luck), +5 (morale), +5 (profane), +5 (resistance), and +5 (sacred). It can only be used by a True Neutral Human with 23 ranks in UMD.

Market Price: 125000 gp

Your build's probably picked up a reduction from an affiliation, and also the Bind Elemental feat, so this item gets crafted for 20503.13 gp once crafting is done. Certainly a good chunk of money, but +55 (resistance) would cost 30.25 million gp if you weren't blatantly cheating.

EDIT: If you're cheating this hard already, you can probably sleep like a baby cheating a bit more.

Ditch the +5 (resistance) for a continuous "Superior Resistance" effect, as cast by a Sublime Chord who's got CL 4 for their 6th lvl spells. 24k for +6 instead of 25k for +5. Alternatively, if you're entirely morally bankrupt, you can pretend that "Resistance, Superior" from SpC isn't actually a 3.5 version of "Superior Resistance" from Savage Species, and now you're casting it as a 5th lvl spell at CL 2 (via Sublime Chord shenanigans again). Now you're getting +6 for 20k.

Such changes would give you +56 for market 124000/crafting 20339.1 (or +56 for market 120000/crafting 19683 if you're living in the sin dumpster).

[Biggus]

The simplest way to get a character with very high saves who's still playable is a Cleric with the Pride domain. By level 7 you can have Greater Resistance (lasts 24hrs), (Mass) Conviction (10min/lvl, Extend Rod costs 3000GP) and Recitation (persistable with DMM) for a total of +9 to all saves. By level 12 this has increased to +13 with Superior Resistance. The Pride domain means you reroll all natural 1's on saves.

If that's not good enough, Cleric 6/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6 gets you evasion you can use in armor, slippery mind and two bonus domains (there are several domains which give save bonuses), see the thread Thurbane linked to for more details.

You can get your saves much higher if you're willing to sacrifice some playability, but past a certain point you're only failing on a natural 1 anyway, and since with the Pride domain you can always reroll those you're down to a 1/400 failure chance, so there's not much to be gained by trying to boost them any further.

[bean illus]

...a character with very high saves who's still playable is a Cleric with the Pride domain. By level 7 you can have Greater Resistance (lasts 24hrs), (Mass) Conviction (10min/lvl, Extend Rod costs 3000GP) and Recitation (persistable with DMM) for a total of +9 to all saves. ... The Pride domain means you reroll all natural 1's on saves.

If that's not good enough, Cleric 6/Divine Oracle 2/Contemplative 6 gets you evasion you can use in armor, slippery mind and two bonus domains (there are several domains which give save bonuses), see the thread Thurbane linked to for more details.

... past a certain point ... you're down to a 1/400 failure chance, so there's not much to be gained by trying to boost them any further.



Edit: That one Martial maneuver to use concentration instead of a will save could be workable

I think you can take 1 level of Warblade at/after 5th level, and pick up Concentration in place of ability scores to ALL 3 saves.

WB 1 initiator 4 (3,3,1)
Maneuver Moment of perfect mind DM 1/0
Action before thought DM 2/0
Mind over body DM 3/0

This gives you, for 1 skill point/level, an untyped +23 to all saves, and leaves you 19 levels for playing anything you want.

Tack it on to the cleric build above for near immunity to Fort, Ref, Will saves

EDIT: WB at 9th, as i was corrected below, for Conc to replace standard saves.

[rrwoods]

I think you can take 1 level of Warblade at/after 5th level, and pick up Concentration in place of ability scores to ALL 3 saves.

WB 1 initiator 4 (3,3,1)
Maneuver Moment of perfect mind DM 1/0
Action before thought DM 2/0
Mind over body DM 3/0

This gives you, for 1 skill point/level, an untyped +23 to all saves, and leaves you 19 levels for playing anything you want.

Tack it on to the cleric build above for near immunity to Fort, Ref, Will saves

A) you need initiator level 5 to take a 3rd level manuever (which mind over body is), so if you're only taking one level of warblade it needs to be at character level 9 or higher

B) it's not in place of ability scores, it's in place of the whole save, including the base

Neither of these is to say this is a bad idea -- it's a fantastic idea if you're looking to succeed on more saving throws -- just that it's "only" great, not ludicrous-insane-good.

[GrayDeath]

I think houserule #2 means: 4 spell levels in 20 classes, like paladin, increase spellcasting the same way a prestige class does at all levels except 1st. Non-spellcasting classes increase caster level, but not other spellcasting things.

This.


And please, keep it coming.

WHile I am abroed for the next few days, this thread has given me a few nice ideas.

Just to make that clear: I am NOT looking for an artifact, spell or combination thereof that makes my Character well "saved", but a build.
Something he always has, as its kind of the central aspect I am going for, always on, not dispellable savey goodness (or Evilness or....^^).

[bean illus]

Just to make that clear: I am NOT looking for an artifact, spell or combination thereof that makes my Character well "saved", but a build.
Something he always has, as its kind of the central aspect I am going for, always on, not dispellable savey goodness (or Evilness or....^^).

Honestly, i think you have your answer.

Take a cleric. They have 2 good saves, and plenty of ways to boost them. If you like, take lightning reflexes to reinforce your Dex saves. Take pride domain, and luck domain if you like. Survive till 9th level.

Take one level of warblade at 9th.

If you want to go overboard on saves, at the expense of playability, take 2 levels of monk, snatch some martial feats, and evasion. Then, cleric, pride and luck, and WB @ 9th.

There aren't many 'playable' options that are gonna beat these. Boosting saves farther will use up all your resources, and lose build synergy.

Like ...

Monk 3/ favored soul 3/ warblade 2
14 Dex, 14 Con, 14 Wis

Lightning reflexes
Iron will
Great fortitude

... you got better saves before 9th, and almost nothin else. You still fail saves, and still roll 1s.

The cleric 8 / WB 1 would eat the afore mentioned as a snack.

EDIT:
As an option, take Warblade 1-5

[Maat Mons]

Okay, so with your house rules, Hexblade 3 gives you +2 levels of casting, +Cha to saves vs. spells/spell-likes, and Mettle. That's pretty good.

And Paladin 4 gives you +3 levels of casting and +Cha to all saves. You can go regular Paladin for immunity to Fear, or Paladin of Freedom for immunity to Compulsion. You can go regular Paladin for Turn Undead, or Aura of Sanctity (Dragon 349) for immunity to Compulsion, Death effects, or Petrification (your choice). And you can go regular Paladin for immunity to Disease, or Ruby Rose Knight for immunity to Charisma damage and drain.

Since your DM's partially ignoring alignment restrictions, you can multiclass Hexblade/Paladin. I'd say Sorcerer is the best class to pair those with, but there are other options too.

If your DM is applying that caster progression houserule to prestige classes too, Pious Templar would be another good way to get Mettle.

[Ramza00]

Just go Cleric Buffs. I will explain how much and for how long later.


Tyche Touch is a 2nd level spell and gives a sacred bonus to saves.
Benediction is a 2nd level spell and gives a luck bonus to saves.
Conviction is a 1st level spell and gives a morale bonus to saves. Mass Conviction is a 3rd level team version.
Greater Resistance is a 4th level spell and gives a resistance bonus to saves. Superior Resistance is a 6th level better version.
Greater Magic Weapon is a 4th level spell and gives a item bonus to saves, with the right weapon enhancement such as Spell Strike.


Only thing missing is Insight Bonus and that can be fulfilled by Items or Psionics

More ideas here from item sources
http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=188


Tyche Touch is 24 hours duration and is +4 sacred, than +3 after the first save, +2 after the 2nd save, and so on until you are out of bonuses. Wonderful item to get a wand since normally 1 a day is enough but you can refresh it.
Benediction cannot be cast on yourself, duration is 10 min per level and thus 1 hour at CL 6, 2 hours at CL 12, and double with a very cheap rod of extend. Since you can't cast it yourself you need to get an ally to do it. It is +2 to Luck Saves and other effects and you can dispel it to do a luck reroll on saves or other things. Alternatively "Prayer" does a luck bonus but it is a waste of an action.
Conviction is 10 min per level, thus 1 hour at CL 6, 2 hours at CL 12, and double with a very cheap rod of extend. +2 to Saves at CL 01, +3 to Saves at CL 06, +4 to Saves at CL 12, +5 to Saves at CL 18. Mass Conviction does it for your party but with pearls of power being so cheap you may just go the level 1 route.
Greater Resistance is 24 hour duration and +3 resistance bonus, the Superior version of the spell is 6th level instead of 4th but now you have +6
Greater Magic Weapon is 1 hour per level and is +1 to the weapon at CL 04 / 08 / 12 / 16 / 20 increasing each time.


-----

The advantage of all this is you are a normal cleric who does normal things.

Throw in some multiclassing with Tome of Battle or Psychic Theurge (with Improved Sigil Krau for early entry) if you need more staying power. Note with Psychic Theurge just go Psion since you do not care about save dcs on the cleric side for buffs.

[bean illus]

Just go Cleric Buffs. I will explain how much and for how long later.


Tyche Touch is a 2nd level spell and gives a sacred bonus to saves.
Benediction is a 2nd level spell and gives a luck bonus to saves.
Conviction is a 1st level spell and gives a morale bonus to saves. Mass Conviction is a 3rd level team version.
Greater Resistance is a 4th level spell and gives a resistance bonus to saves. Superior Resistance is a 6th level better version.
Greater Magic Weapon is a 4th level spell and gives a item bonus to saves, with the right weapon enhancement such as Spell Strike.



I'm jus' sayin', one level of warblade, a 14 constitution, and bears endurance (item), and you're stackin all that on level +7. Don't forget, when something DOES go wrong, a cleric heals herself and has restoration.