My Copper Dragon's Spells

[KorvinStarmast]

I have an adult copper dragon (boosted to 18 from 17, wisdom dropped to 14 from 15) who will be a spell caster.
Based on the DM variation, he can have 4 spells per day and they can be up to 4th level spells.
I am torn: should I use the Sorcerer list (thematic for dragonish stuff) or should I use the Bard Spell list? The latter seems to be a little more thematic for a copper dragon because ...
Good Hosts. A copper dragon appreciates wit, a good joke, humorous story, or riddle. A copper dragon becomes annoyed with any creature that doesn’t laugh at its jokes or accept its tricks with good humor. Copper Dragons are particularly fond of bards. A dragon might carve out part of its lair as a temporary abode for a bard willing to regale it with stories, riddles, and music. To a copper dragon, such companionship is a Treasure to be coveted.
Cautious and Crafty. When building its hoard, a copper dragon prefers treasures from the earth. Metals and precious stones are favorites of these creatures. A copper dragon is wary when it comes to showing off its possessions. If it knows that other creatures seek a specific item in its hoard, a copper dragon will not admit to possessing the item. Instead, it might send Curious Treasure hunters on a wild goose chase to Search for the object while it watches from afar for its own pleasure. Proficiency in deception skill, so at least one illusion spell is needed, and polymorph (for pranks if for no other reason) and then I run into the tyrrany of choice after that.

Thematically, what are the best Bard spells for an adult copper dragon?
What I came up with on an initial cut are:
Hypnotic Pattern, Polymorph, Suggestion, Unseen Servant (A good host needs, US, right?

And alternatively
Thematically, what are the best sorcerer spells for a copper dragon?
Color Spray, Polymorph, Major Image, Confusion

As a coda:
As I read the dragon spell casting, I get the idea that the dragon could upcast Color Spray, for example, as a level 4 spell. Is that right? They can't cast any spell higher than the given level (which for this dragon at CR 14 divided by three rounded down is four.

[Unoriginal]

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Vicious Mockery seems like must-haves, I have to say.

Other than those I'd probably go for Bardic illusion spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Vicious Mockery seems like must-haves, I have to say.

Other than those I'd probably go for Bardic illusion spells.

I had not thought about a cantrip; that would be at will, though, rather than once per day, right?

Yeah, Tasha's really is bard ish, isn't it? And copper dragons do like a joke.

[Tawmis]

If you're doing Bard...

For Cantrips.

Mage Hand (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/mage_hand/) to tap players on the shoulder.
Message (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/message/) to whisper random things into a player's ear and only that single player (so a lot of, "Did you just hear that?")

Beyond that...
Charm Person (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/charm_person/) so that they can charm one of the players.
Hideous Laughter (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/hideous_laughter/) especially since it notes it hates when people don't laugh at their jokes - what if they told a joke that wasn't funny and followed up with Hideous Laughter?
Sleep (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/sleep/) is always good. Knock out some low level folks, then move them (or take/hide some of their items)

[Bobthewizard]

If you can upcast to 4th level, I'd go with 4th level charm person (4 targets) and 4th level hold person (3 targets). Then vitriolic sphere to use while its breath weapon recharges, and polymorph for shenanigans.

So round by round would be:
0. charm person during the talking phase before combat
1. breath weapon (use again every time it recharges if you can target 2+ people)
2. hold person on 3 people not charmed
3. vitriolic sphere
4. offensive polymorph once all targets save from hold person, or defensive to escape if too injured.

Use individual attacks if it can't target 2+ party members with AOE.

[Unoriginal]

I had not thought about a cantrip; that would be at will, though, rather than once per day, right?


At will is how I'd do it, since it's a cantrip after all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Some neat ideas already, thanks.
Twamis: nice package, and now I am going to have to make some choices.

For Bob the Wizard:
Vitrioloc sphere is not thematic to bard, but it might be sorcerer thematic.

I am not min maxing here. I should have made that clearer in the OP, my bad.

Your tactical thinking is appreciated. :smallsmile: (Sneaky DM tricks are usually welcome in any case ...)

[MrStabby]

When you say you have a dragon - is this as DM?

One thing you could do is just ignore class lists and have the most thematic spells... even write your own.

For what its worth my picks would be:

1) Tasha's hideous laughter, farie fire, cure wounds, sanctuary
2) Silence, Warding wind, Aid
3) Phantasmal force, Aura of vitality, Major Image
4) Compulsion, Confusion,

The aim is to get a bit of a bard/trickster feel but also that of hospitality, home making and shelter for strangers and storytellers.

If you up the spell levels to 5th then there are a lot of nice things to add to the theme.

[KorvinStarmast]

When you say you have a dragon - is this as DM?
Yes

One thing you could do is just ignore class lists and have the most thematic spells... even write your own. If that's what I had wanted to do, I'd not have written the post. I am brainstorming here, because I have found that a lot of fun and creative people on GiTP look at things a little differently than I do, so I ask for their input. And when I get it, I am usually pleased to find all kinds of stuff that I didn't think of.


1) Tasha's hideous laughter, farie fire, cure wounds, sanctuary
2) Silence, Warding wind, Aid
3) Phantasmal force, Aura of vitality, Major Image
4) Compulsion, Confusion,

The aim is to get a bit of a bard/trickster feel but also that of hospitality, home making and shelter for strangers and storytellers.
The limitation is the dragon can only have four spells. (I cited the MM bit on that)
From the above, which 4 do you think is the best for the bard theme, or the sorcerer theme?

I like your overall scheme, so thank you for putting in the effort. More food for thought
From your list, I think a solid bardy theme would be:
Tasha's, Faerie Fire, Major Image, Confusion
But
For those PCs who don't like the dragon's jokes, maybe Silence to do the old "oh, shut up, you!" and drop Faerie Fire.

[Bobthewizard]

For Bob the Wizard:
Vitrioloc sphere is not thematic to bard, but it might be sorcerer thematic.


Vitriolic sphere was supposed to tie in with the copper dragon's acid breath. It's not a bard spell, but the charm/hold person and polymorph could still give you a bard feel.