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View Full Version : Optimization Types of resource, rated by scarcity/importance



Particle_Man
2020-09-30, 12:00 PM
This is partly spitballing but I don’t know if anyone has formally done this.

The idea is that some things are easier to get (gp, xp, skill points) and others harder to get (feats, levels, spell-casting levels) in that there is an opportunity cost if you spend them on X instead of Y that makes it really hard to get Y later.

Has anyone listed the various features of a character that one can spend in an approximate order of what things have a lesser or greater opportunity cost?

Venger
2020-09-30, 12:37 PM
So you want a ranking of the steps of building a character as well as all resources a character has? I assume we're setting aside infinite loops because that makes all of these have zero cost so essentially equal.

Will assume a normal lvl 20 character. Ranked from rarest to most common.

1. Feats: A standard character only ever gets 7 of these, 8 if they're human. Depending on exact classes, you might get a few bonus feats and maybe a few more from elder evil devotion, but not that many more. If you're spending one of these, it had better be worth it.

2. Class levels: You'll only ever get 20 of these period. Even with psychic reformation or doing the wight thing or what have you, you can only have 20 at a time. It's usually acceptable to spend one of these if the payoff is good enough, like a 1 lvl barb dip for any melee build or a 1 lvl cloistered cleric dip for many different kinds of characters.

3. Skills: You get a lot of these compared to class levels, and it's relatively difficult to get more than you're supposed to. You'll seldom be too hard pressed to spend skills if you can afford it.

4. XP: As they say, experience is a river. You can always just go and get more, so it's not a limited resource. Even if you craft, it just means you'll reap more xp later once you lag behind the rest of your party and slingshot past them, so it'll even out.

5. GP. Even if there are no monsters around, you can pull ladders into poles or craft stuff. This is even more unlimited than xp since it's not dependent on your gm coming up with encounters. The purpose of fighting monsters in the first place in the game about fighting monsters is to get gp from their vendor trash, so you'll always be in a position to get more gp.

Doctor Despair
2020-09-30, 02:18 PM
1. Feats: A standard character only ever gets 7 of these, 8 if they're human. Depending on exact classes, you might get a few bonus feats and maybe a few more from elder evil devotion, but not that many more. If you're spending one of these, it had better be worth it.

Don't forget about bonus Taint feats, particularly for Necropolitans. I suppose Magical Location feats and Bloodline feats also bear mention, for specific ones, along with certain items... I don't know if class/class feature-feats are worth mentioning, as they aren't accessible to everyone

Troacctid
2020-09-30, 02:44 PM
Feats may be more scarce than class levels, but they're also a lot less powerful. I would rank class levels above them because the opportunity cost of losing one is so much higher.

Here's how my ranking would go strictly in terms of their power as a resource, ignoring scarcity.

Class levels
Gold (at high levels)
Feats
Gold (at low levels)
Spells known
Skill points
XP
It's ironic that the least powerful resource converts directly into the most powerful resource, but there you are, I guess.

Glimbur
2020-09-30, 02:56 PM
The most valuable resource is actions in combat. Most everything else is used to improve them (or avoid the need for them).

Telonius
2020-09-30, 03:39 PM
Most important one is metagame, and also scarcest: real-world time. That's both for game schedules and system mastery.

For in-game stuff, your immortal soul is probably the scarcest one, and can be most important for opportunity costs. You can trade this away for some neat benefits. But you never get another one, it's really hard to get it back, and the costs of losing it are (post-mortem) pretty serious.

NigelWalmsley
2020-09-30, 04:13 PM
1. Feats: A standard character only ever gets 7 of these, 8 if they're human. Depending on exact classes, you might get a few bonus feats and maybe a few more from elder evil devotion, but not that many more. If you're spending one of these, it had better be worth it.

I think if you're assuming WBL loops, it's probably fair to assume DCFS stuff too, at which point the number of feats becomes a lot less limited.

Troacctid
2020-09-30, 04:29 PM
I really think the value of gold changes a lot based on what level you are (assuming you hew at least reasonably close to the DMG's guidelines for it), because at low levels when you're getting hardly any gold, you just can't buy much with it at all, so most feats are going to be more powerful than the items you have access to. But then at higher levels, wealth starts scaling really well, and suddenly you can afford powerful items that are easily better than any feats you could be taking. Not many feats can compete with a ring of invisibility, third eye sense, admiral's bicorne, energy bow, etc.

NigelWalmsley
2020-09-30, 06:27 PM
There are feats that are competitive at high levels (e.g. Leadership). And given the paucity of feats available to any particular character, it doesn't really matter if there are only five feats worth having, because they only get five feats.

Venger
2020-09-30, 08:58 PM
I think if you're assuming WBL loops, it's probably fair to assume DCFS stuff too, at which point the number of feats becomes a lot less limited.
I wasn't assuming infinite anything (because then everything is more or less on par) but even with DCFS in play, you can only have a finite number of feats at any one given time, so even with an optimal loadout and assuming free access to magical locations (which are bought with money) and a bunch of bonus feats through elder evil devotion, faustian pacts, etc, you are limited to a finite number at once.

Saintheart
2020-09-30, 09:39 PM
Maybe it's also worth noting that while skill points are fairly available, skill ranks are a scarce-er in effect because of the level cap (assuming you don't believe in Dusk Giant Cannibalise + Psychic Reformation).

By contrast, positive skill modifiers are relatively easy to get (From Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar down to skill synergies granted by reason of having other skills).

Doctor Despair
2020-09-30, 09:47 PM
Maybe it's also worth noting that while skill points are fairly available, skill ranks are a scarce-er in effect because of the level cap (assuming you don't believe in Dusk Giant Cannibalise + Psychic Reformation).

By contrast, positive skill modifiers are relatively easy to get (From Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar down to skill synergies granted by reason of having other skills).

To be fair, that still leaves retraining, Open-Minded, or Psychic Reformation for skillpoints combined with:


Bloodlines
Lycantropy
Inspire Greatness
Other generic sources of temporary HD


Not to mention good old Favored in Guild / Primary Contact, to that limited extent.

...

... they're definitely all strictly inferior to the Dusk Giant Polymorph trick though.