Evangelist (DR 311) spontaneous cleric. What can we get out of it? (build help)

[bean illus]

Reserved, to show the build upon completion.

[bean illus]

I hope and intend to create an entire character table for this build, if it comes together well, so any help with me not embarrassing myself would be appreciated.


I've been researching a build, but as always, I'm having difficulty smoothing it out and streamlining it. I was working with Correllon Larethian as a deity, particularly for the magic domain, but it works about as well with others, i suppose.
I started a list of domains here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?619433-Corellon-Larethian-all-domains)

Evangelist is a spontaneous caster that gives 6 domains and domain powers. It's a 3/4 BAB class with good Fort and Wis, simple weapons, ans med armor.

First things first. Here's the spell tables, and the class' spell ability description.

Am i correct in thinking that, if i prc more domains on it, it would increase it's spells known? If yes, I'll post the elements i hope to squueze in, and ask for help with that.


Spells per Day


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
6
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
6
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
6
6
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
6
6
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
6
6
5
3
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
6
6
6
4
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
6
6
6
5
3
-
-
-
-
-


9th
6
6
6
6
4
-
-
-
-
-


10th
6
6
6
6
5
3
-
-
-
-


11th
6
6
6
6
6
4
-
-
-
-


12th
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
-
-
-


13th
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
-
-
-


14th
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
-
-


15th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
-
-


16th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3
-


17th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4
-


18th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
5
3


19th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
4


20th
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6
6



Spells Known¹


Level
0lvl
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
7th
8th
9th


1st
4
2+2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


2nd
5
2+2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


3rd
5
3+2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


4th
6
3+2
1+2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


5th
6
4+3
2+3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-


6th
7
4+3
2+3
1+3
-
-
-
-
-
-


7th
7
5+3
3+3
2+3
-
-
-
-
-
-


8th
8
5+3
3+3
2+3
1+3
-
-
-
-
-


9th
8
5+3
4+3
3+3
2+3
-
-
-
-
-


10th
9
5+4
4+4
3+4
2+4
1+4
-
-
-
-


11th
9
5+4
5+4
4+4
3+4
2+4
-
-
-
-


12th
9
5+4
5+4
4+4
3+4
2+4
1+4
-
-
-


13th
9
5+4
5+4
4+4
4+4
3+4
2+4
-
-
-


14th
9
5+4
5+4
4+4
4+4
3+4
2+4
1+4
-
-


15th
9
5+5
5+5
4+5
4+5
4+5
3+5
2+5
-
-


16th
9
5+5
5+5
4+5
4+5
4+5
3+5
2+5
1+5
-


17th
9
5+5
5+5
4+5
4+5
4+5
3+5
3+5
2+5
-


18th
9
5+5
5+5
4+5
4+5
4+5
3+5
3+5
2+5
1+5


19th
9
5+5
5+5
4+5
4+5
4+5
3+5
3+5
3+5
2+5


20th
9
5+6
5+6
4+6
4+6
4+6
3+6
3+6
3+6
2+6


1 Numbers after the "+" symbol refer to the domain spells added to the evangelist's spells known list.

Evangelist Spellcasting: The evangelist casts divine spells based on Wisdom, and gains spells known from the cleric list as a sorcerer casts arcane spells and gains spells. Note that the evangelist cannot learn a new divine spell in place of domain spells known.

Domains: At 1st level, the evangelist chooses two domains. He gains the granted ability of both domains, and he adds all the spells listed on the domain spell list to his spells known list at the appropriate levels. The evangelist does not gain the cleric's ability to cast extra spells chosen from the domain lists.

[Anthrowhale]

FYI, this is in Dragon #311.

My understanding is that the 'Domains' ability is specific to domains gained via Evangelist. The rules in Complete Divine would control domains acquired by other means.

As far as optimizing, the Evangelist has a huge number of low-quality spells known. The obvious thing to do is trade them for high quality spells known. The spell 'Dragonblood Spell-pact' enables this. The XP cost is substantial but not outlandish here.

[bean illus]

On page 20 of Complete Divine.

If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally.
(Snip)
If the noncleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A (*spontaneous caster) does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the (*spontaneous caster) may cast it freely.


I suppose i thought Evangelist was a considered a cleric, but understand now that a variant class is different than an ACF.

Dragonblood Spellcraft works, but where Dragon Magic p 8 does list several PHb races, it largely depends upon a PC or NPC wanting to trade their 'good' spells for your 'bad' ones.

Still, i think there's a bit of a workaround. This brings me back to a question that wasn't answered i asked on a previous thread:

How does a spontaneous divine caster handle Anyspell? And, if a magical writing is needed would a dip in Eidetic Spellcaster allow casting spells you've previously read to be memorized?

[Maat Mons]

Since you're using Dragon Magazine material anyway, you might want to consider adding in a few instances of the Customize Domain feat.

[bean illus]

Since you're using Dragon Magazine material anyway, you might want to consider adding in a few instances of the Customize Domain feat.

Yeah, good to point that out. There are
some limitations though. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?383602-Bending-God-s-Will-The-Customize-Domain-Handbook)

But what about ...



How does a spontaneous divine caster handle Anyspell? And, if a magical writing is needed would a dip in Eidetic Spellcaster allow casting spells you've previously read to be memorized?

[Maat Mons]

The way that Anyspell works is that it puts an arcane spell "in your 3rd-level domain spell slot." You don't have any domain spell slots, so I don't think it does anything for you.

[Anthrowhale]

Dragonblood Spellcraft works, but where Dragon Magic p 8 does list several PHb races, it largely depends upon a PC or NPC wanting to trade their 'good' spells for your 'bad' ones.

The essence of a willing trade is that your bad is my good and vice versa, so there is at least some potential here.

Anyspell definitely requires a domain spell slot. It's a little bit hazy what a domain spell slot is because it's not explicitly defined. Is it the bonus slot that a cleric gets? Definitely. Is it the slots that a divine crusader gets? Probably yes. Is it the one domain spell / level that a noncleric with prepared casting and a domain can use to prepare and cast a domain spell? Maybe yes? Is it a spell slot from which you can cast a domain spell? I could see a DM ruling this either way. Anyway, Anyspell itself was definitely written with conventional clerics doing conventional things in mind as it's written as if there is a single 3rd level domain spell slot available, which definitely isn't the case for an Evangelist.

W.r.t. domains, the Evangelist is definitely a Cleric. The rules in Complete Divine don't seem to cover the situation where a cleric receives a domain when they use mechanics other than a standard cleric. Without that, it seems the only reasonable position is what you started with: all spells are added to spells known. It's moderately ambiguous because that rule is inferred from the table. It's consistent with the text, but the text is missing an entry for 'Additional Domain'.

[bean illus]

Anyspell definitely requires a domain spell slot. It's a little bit hazy what a domain spell slot is because it's not explicitly defined. Is it the bonus slot that a cleric gets? Definitely. Is it the slots that a divine crusader gets? Probably yes. Is it the one domain spell / level that a noncleric with prepared casting and a domain can use to prepare and cast a domain spell? Maybe yes? Is it a spell slot from which you can cast a domain spell? [/u]I could see a DM ruling this either way.[/u] Anyway, Anyspell itself was definitely written with conventional clerics doing conventional things in mind as it's written as if there is a single 3rd level domain spell slot available, which definitely isn't the case for an Evangelist.

W.r.t. domains, the Evangelist is definitely a Cleric. The rules in Complete Divine don't seem to cover the situation where a cleric receives a domain when they use mechanics other than a standard cleric. Without that, it seems the only reasonable position is what you started with: all spells are added to spells known. It's moderately ambiguous because that rule is inferred from the table. It's consistent with the text, but the text is missing an entry for 'Additional Domain'. Emphasis mine

How i see it:
It's a domain spell. It's a spell slot. Evangelist can cast domain spells from any slot, and in fact it's nearly their only schtick. Quite similar to a divine crusader of Mystra, who i would think could cast anyspell.

When i get to an ambiguous dead end as a DM, i often consider, 'does it cost the character something'. And, in this case, yes.

Beyond the limitation that anyspell has a 15 min casting time, making it impractical in many combat situations, and cost at least one spell level:

1. A cleric has no way to make a spell book.
2. Therefore, a wizard (or scroll) must be available.
3. The wizard must have the spell in her book.
4. The only way i know around this is a wizard dip.

5. Which sets the Evangelist behind sorcerer in spell level access (which is a serious cost, which i wonder if it's really worth).

And note, Evangelist has no TU ability, so DMM shenanigans on anyspell would also need more investment than a standard cleric.

So, while waiting for other's opinions on a hard no, as well as on the efficacy of losing a cleric caster level for this, I'm going to state that i don't find it overpowered compared to optimized builds, and hope/plan to move forward with the intent to use anyspell.

[Maat Mons]

Just because you need a spellbook doesn't mean you need a Wizard.

Wizards can have as many spellbooks as they want. So you can pay an NPC Wizard to write one up for you. Then you carry that on your adventures. The NPC doesn't have to follow you around for the spellbook to keep being a spellbook. And its not like he doesn't still have his original spellbook (and any number of duplicates he pleases) to prepare his spells from while he sits back in town.

I like to imagine that there's one Wizard out there with Geometer levels, the Arcane Shorthand feat, and the 3.0 version of Ameneusis. Other Wizards come to him with their Blessed Books, and he very quickly fills each book up with all the spells on the Wizard list, for a fee.

[bean illus]

Just because you need a spellbook doesn't mean you need a Wizard.

... you can pay an NPC Wizard to write one up for you.


Funny, isn't it, how some things sound so obvious, once you hear them.

EDIT: Honestly, this so totally eliminates one of the only minor limits on power of the strongest class in the game, that I'd be tempted as DM to slow the roll. After all, a wizard could have every spell they wanted before they even qualify for a level.
Perhaps the NPC is just to busy to make books like this (it would take weeks, in most cases). Perhaps he's too proud, and thinks you should do it 'the old fashion way.

[lylsyly]

I just had to go look up the Evangelist, then I found Arcane Disciple. Now I am stuck in what can I do with this mode ;-).

[bean illus]

I just had to go look up the Evangelist, then I found Arcane Disciple. Now I am stuck in what can I do with this mode ;-).

It's important to note that you must have an arcane level equal to the needed caster level.

But, ... pride domain rerolls 1s on saves, and grants divine power for full BAB.

Arcane Disciple CD, p. 79, [General]
Prerequisite
Choose a deity, Knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, Spellcraft 4 ranks, able to cast arcane spells, alignment matches your deity's alignment,
Benefit
Pick an arcane class and add a chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. Learn these spells as normal, ut use Wisdom for the save DC. Must have a Wisdom of 10 + spell level. You may or cast a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
Special
You can take this feat more than once. Select a different domain of the same deity.

Pride Domain
Granted Powers: Immediately reroll a 1 on save. Keep the result even if another 1.
1 - Hypnotism
2 - Eagle's Splendor
3 - Heroism
4 - Divine Power
5 - Reduce Person, Mass
6 - Forbiddance
7 - Heroism, Greater
8 - Spell Immunity, Greater
9 - Charm Monster, Mass


Not much use on an Evangelist, but it can BAB 20 a gish, and reroll 1@ on saves, both in one feat.

[lylsyly]

I'm talking about the arcane disciple alternate class not the feat ;-).same issue of dragmag

[bean illus]

I'm talking about the arcane disciple alternate class not the feat ;-).same issue of dragmag

Oh, yeah. Well, you get to harvest top (5th) level bard spells at 11th level Arcane Disciple, so there might be something there. Consider a dip into Sacred Exorcist, for TU, and then spend your extra feats on Xtra Turning, and DMM.

Come to think of it ... it fixes the problem of gishing a cleric, but not having feats for martial AND metamagic.

If you start a thread, I'll help as i can.

[Ramza00]

Oh, yeah. Well, you get to harvest top (5th) level bard spells at 11th level Arcane Disciple, so there might be something there. Consider a dip into Sacred Exorcist, for TU, and then spend your extra feats on Xtra Turning, and DMM.

Come to think of it ... it fixes the problem of gishing a cleric, but not having feats for martial AND metamagic.

If you start a thread, I'll help as i can.

It also gives 4 + skill points per level instead of 2 + skill points.

Initiate of Mill and Sacred Performer gives you most of 3.5 Bardic Music back.

[bean illus]

Here's where I'm at with this.
If you lose Seeker of the Misty Isle you can choose any deity or race, but Corellon grants some great domains if you scavenge sources.

Let me know if you see problems, as well as if you have suggestions on finishing, or rearranging the order. Also, feats and domains suggestions, thanks.

I'm considering ditching the wizard level, but it's designed to allow greater anyspell to use versatile spellcaster to allow spontaneous access to multiple wizard spells.

1 Evangelist Magic Domain, Elf Domain, Apprentice Woodsman
2 Evangelist 2
3 Evangelist 3 Elf = Heretic of the Faith = Spell Domain

4 Evangelist 4 Frog God’s Phane (SF KR)
5 Evangelist 5 Celerity Domain
6 SotMI Travel Domain, Versatile Spellcaster

7 Divine Oracle Oracle Domain
8 Church Inquisitor Inquisition
9 Wizard Eidetic Spellcaster, Planar Touchstone Luck Domain

10 Divine Disciple
11 Contemplative open domain
12 Divine Disciple 2 Extend Spell

13 Divine Disciple 3
14 Divine Disciple 4 open domain
15 Contemplative 2 Extra Slot

16 Contemplative 3
17 Contemplative 4
18 Contemplative 5 open feat

19 Contemplative 6 open domain
20 Contemplative 7

[animewatcha]

Thing to consider with evangelist. While their alignment must still be within their deity, it looks like their domain choices are NOT limited. Also there is the Necromancy domain in dragonlance campaign setting. This gives Rebuke Undead. Along with spells of detect undead, death knell, halt undead, animate undead, slay living, create undead, destruction, create greater undead, and energy drain.

[Anthrowhale]

There is some text in Rules Compendium under Spontaneous Casting which says that you can't use slots from one class to cast spells known from another.

[bean illus]

Thing to consider with evangelist. While their alignment must still be within their deity, it looks like their domain choices are NOT limited. Also there is the Necromancy domain in dragonlance campaign setting. This gives Rebuke Undead. Along with spells of detect undead, death knell, halt undead, animate undead, slay living, create undead, destruction, create greater undead, and energy drain.

Though only mentioned in the fluff text, the phrase "the evangelist has an intensely personal relationship with his deity" implies a thematic choice of domains. I would stretch for necromancy with some deities, but I'm not feeling it with Correllon Larethian.

Your idea certainly boost power, and options for Evangelist.


There is some text in Rules Compendium under Spontaneous Casting which says that you can't use slots from one class to cast spells known from another.


Hmm, but is that what I'm really doing?
I know the spells with Evangelist casting anyspell. I'm only using Eidetic Spellcaster to keep the spellbook for the arcane writing.

I wonder what other playgrounders think? I suppose i could purchase a spellbook, and save a level.

[Anthrowhale]

Hmm, but is that what I'm really doing?
I know the spells with Evangelist casting anyspell. I'm only using Eidetic Spellcaster to keep the spellbook for the arcane writing.

I wonder what other playgrounders think? I suppose i could purchase a spellbook, and save a level.

As long as you are using anyspell (...dependent on validity of anyspell application of course) to cast, I think you are good.

[Gavinfoxx]

I like the Transformation domain! Some other good domains are Travel, Weather, Mind, Time...

[animewatcha]

Though only mentioned in the fluff text, the phrase "the evangelist has an intensely personal relationship with his deity" implies a thematic choice of domains. I would stretch for necromancy with some deities, but I'm not feeling it with Correllon Larethian.

Your idea certainly boost power, and options for Evangelist.


Assuming the mojo of 'elves are good and orcs are bad'. Your god allowing you to raise the corpses of fallen elven comrades to battle the insidious orcs ( and their corpses ).

[bean illus]

Thing to consider with evangelist. While their alignment must still be within their deity, it looks like their domain choices are NOT limited. Also there is the Necromancy domain in dragonlance campaign setting. This gives Rebuke Undead. Along with spells of detect undead, death knell, halt undead, animate undead, slay living, create undead, destruction, create greater undead, and energy drain.


Assuming the mojo of 'elves are good and orcs are bad'. Your god allowing you to raise the corpses of fallen elven comrades to battle the insidious orcs ( and their corpses ).


I like the Transformation domain! Some other good domains are Travel, Weather, Mind, Time...

To be more clear, I'll be using this list, except where heretic of the faith is used to gain the spell domain.


14 domains of Corellon Larethian, and their source books.

Chaos PHb
Good PHb
Protection PHb
War PHb

Community CDiv
Mysticism CDiv
Elf FaP
Magic FaP
Liberation GH
Celerity LGhD v2.0
Arborea PlHb

Pride Dr 283, 323
Zeal Dr 335
Holy DrAnn 6


Though those are strong ideas for next level optimization .

[Gavinfoxx]

Why don't you follow a pantheon instead? Or a few allied gods that get along well, within a pantheon (or even without if they are close enough buddies)? That'll give you some more flexibility.

[ExLibrisMortis]

A bit late to the party, but re: anyspell--Initiate of Mystra lets you cast it out of your regular slots (the greater version, too). Mystra has the Good, Illusion, Knowledge, Magic, Rune, and Spell domains. Not the worst six domains you could pick, for sure.

[Ramza00]

A bit late to the party, but re: anyspell--Initiate of Mystra lets you cast it out of your regular slots (the greater version, too). Mystra has the Good, Illusion, Knowledge, Magic, Rune, and Spell domains. Not the worst six domains you could pick, for sure.

Thinking about a Evangelist* Mystra Cleric who is a Shadowcraft Mage. A heretic of the faith without taking the heretic of the faith feat :smalltongue:

*Use Illusion Domain to get the boon of +1 caster level for illusions but also add these spells to your spell list. 1 - Silent Image / 2 - Minor Image / 3 - Displacement / 4 - Phantasmal Killer / 5 - Persistent Image / 6 - Mislead / 7 - Project Image / 8 - Screen / 9 - Weird.