Magic armor and fitting a centaur-like creature?

[eyebreaker7]

Celestial Armor
This bright silver or gold +3 chainmail is so fine and light that it can be worn under normal clothing without betraying its presence. It has a maximum Dexterity bonus of +8, an armor check penalty of -2, and an arcane spell failure chance of 15%. It is considered light armor, weighs 20 pounds, and it allows the wearer to use fly on command (as the spell) once per day.

Faint transmutation [good]; CL 5th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be good, fly; Price 22,400 gp; Cost 12,550 gp + 1,004 XP.


How would this armor "fit" a scorpionfolk or similar type creature like a centaur? I know magic stuff grow/shrinks to fit the wearer but how much is too much to change? Yes I know I can have it "made to fit" but what if I found it?

[Venger]

Magic armor, weapons, and items will always magically resize to fit the new owner. Found stuff will morph to fit. Part of the benefit conferred by it being magic.

[Thurbane]

Magic armor, weapons, and items will always magically resize to fit the new owner. Found stuff will morph to fit. Part of the benefit conferred by it being magic.

Can I get a citation on that? I know this applies for clothing items such as boots, gloves, vests etc. but didn't know it applied to armor and weapons?

If it does apply to weapons, what is the point of the Sizing special ability?


When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.


The cost of armor for nonhumanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are neither Small nor Medium, varies. The cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same.

[tyckspoon]

Can I get a citation on that? I know this applies for clothing items such as boots, gloves, vests etc. but didn't know it applied to armor and weapons?


It doesn't, armor and weapons are not adjustable (beyond the general case that a Medium suit of armor fits all vaguely human-shaped Medium creatures - if you're not Medium or you're not on the human-standard body plan, you have issues.)


How would this armor "fit" a scorpionfolk or similar type creature like a centaur? I know magic stuff grow/shrinks to fit the wearer but how much is too much to change? Yes I know I can have it "made to fit" but what if I found it?

You would either have to have it modified to fit/extended with a section of barding for the non-humanoid section of the body, or have additional magical properties added to it to permit it to reshape. Or ask your DM if you can ignore that whole mess, just wear it on your humanoid torso section, and have the bonuses apply to your whole body because otherwise you basically can't find armor and will have to go full MagicMart in order to get anything usable.

[SirNibbles]

Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.


Rules Compendium, page 24





BODY SLOTS
Body: Armor, robes.

Creatures never gain extra body slots for having extra body parts.

As long as you’re the same size category and the same general shape as the armor’s original owner, the armor functions normally for you. However, inappropriately sized or shaped armor can’t be worn. Armor doesn’t resize to fit a wearer of a different size category, nor does armor constructed for a humanoid-shaped creature fit a nonhumanoid-shaped creature. In cases where a nonhumanoid-shaped creature tries to wear armor created for another nonhumanoid, the DM should use his best judgment.

Multilegged Creatures: Creatures that have more than two legs can treat their foremost pair of limbs as their arms, allowing them access to the arms, hands, and rings body slots, even if those limbs are used for locomotion rather than for manipulation. Creatures that have arms as well as multiple legs lack no body slots.

Rules Compendium, page 83-84


Are you a humanoid shaped creature? No, so you can't wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures.

You never gain extra body slots for having extra body parts. You only have one slot in which to wear armor, so you only need to wear one type of armor- you don't need to have both barding and humanoid armor (chestplate) for a centaur, for example, even though that's likely the appearance of 'centaur-shaped armor'.

If you have a nonhumanoid-shaped creature trying to wear armor for another nonhumanoid-shaped creature, it's up to the DM. I personally would say a scorpionfolk would be close enough to a centaur, but others may disagree. I can imagine the effort of creating a master list of non-humanoid shaped creatures that can share armor, whether by WoTC or GitP.

__

As for the armor you mentioned, the cost of creating it should simply take into account the extra cost for the size difference and non-humanoid shape compared to the base masterwork armor. Large nonhumanoid is x4; chainmail is 150gp - 300gp for masterwork - nonhumanoid masterwork chainmail is 750gp, so just add 450gp to the cost and it should be good.

I may be overlooking something but it seems pretty straightforward.

[Thurbane]

In that case, I'd recommend Dispel Magic followed up with Polymorph Any Object to make the found humanoid shaped armor fit your Scorpionfolk.

It's overkill, and there may be lower level ways to do it though...

[Ramza00]

In that case, I'd recommend Dispel Magic followed up with Polymorph Any Object to make the found humanoid shaped armor fit your Scorpionfolk.

It's overkill, and there may be lower level ways to do it though...

I seem to recall there is magic spells to resize armor. Resize Item for Pathfinder but I thought 3.5 also had something as well :smalleek:

[the_tick_rules]

calculate what celestial armor would cost/ why it exists if crafted for a horse and you should be fine, I think. Maybe say it belonged to a paladin's mount?

[ChaosStar]

Price for a Large non humanoid: 89600 gp.

[Silly Name]

Price for a Large non humanoid: 89600 gp.

You don't multiply the final price of the magic armor for determining how much this costs. You multiply the cost of a chainmail armor, then add the difference between normal chainmail and non-humanoid Large chainmail to the price of the magic item.


The cost of armor for nonhumanoid creatures, as well as for creatures who are neither Small nor Medium, varies. The cost of the masterwork quality and any magical enhancement remains the same.

[Crake]

It doesn't, armor and weapons are not adjustable (beyond the general case that a Medium suit of armor fits all vaguely human-shaped Medium creatures - if you're not Medium or you're not on the human-standard body plan, you have issues.)

Worth noting that Full-plate requires manual adjustment by an armorsmith: "Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4×100) gold pieces."

[KillianHawkeye]

Worth noting that Full-plate requires manual adjustment by an armorsmith: "Each suit of full plate must be individually fitted to its owner by a master armorsmith, although a captured suit can be resized to fit a new owner at a cost of 200 to 800 (2d4×100) gold pieces."

I suppose it might be an unintentional house rule, but my group has always ignored this when it's a magical suit of full-plate armor.

[Silly Name]

I suppose it might be an unintentional house rule, but my group has always ignored this when it's a magical suit of full-plate armor.

Honestly, it's such a niche rule that I suppose most people are completely unaware it exists. Plus full plate armor isn't all that commonly used due to its large base price and penalties.

[KillianHawkeye]

Honestly, it's such a niche rule that I suppose most people are completely unaware it exists. Plus full plate armor isn't all that commonly used due to its large base price and penalties.

We aren't unaware of it. We just don't apply it to magical armor. But right now, I can't remember if that's a real rule or not.

Admittedly, we rarely use nonmagic full-plate. And it's usually mithral on top of being magic.

[Crake]

Honestly, it's such a niche rule that I suppose most people are completely unaware it exists. Plus full plate armor isn't all that commonly used due to its large base price and penalties.

Full plate has the best dex+AC combo in core 3.5, and it's penalties are decently reducable, -3 mithirl, -2 nimble, and if you use pathfinder, you can reduce it to 0ACP with comfort. Additionally, mithril reduces it's 35% ASF to 25%, twilight reduces it to 15%, thistledown padding, githcraft and feycraft by another 5% each so you could get 0%ASF on it. Only issue is that thistledown padding increases ACP by 1, so you have to pick between 0ASF or 0ACP, unless you have like, 1 level in spellsword or something, to be able to negate some extra ASF. Toss on halfweight, and it's also counted as light armor, so you can move at full speed in it. All that would only come in at +5 worth of enhnacements plus some relatively cheap flat costs, coming in at around 36-40k (including the base +1 needed). Not bad for +9AC, +4 max dex armor that you can move at full speed in and literally anyone could use without penalty (bar like, monks I guess). Much cheaper than the 64k you'd pay for +8 bracers of armor or something.

[Silly Name]

Full plate has the best dex+AC combo in core 3.5, and it's penalties are decently reducable, -3 mithirl, -2 nimble, and if you use pathfinder, you can reduce it to 0ACP with comfort. Additionally, mithril reduces it's 35% ASF to 25%, twilight reduces it to 15%, thistledown padding, githcraft and feycraft by another 5% each so you could get 0%ASF on it. Only issue is that thistledown padding increases ACP by 1, so you have to pick between 0ASF or 0ACP, unless you have like, 1 level in spellsword or something, to be able to negate some extra ASF. Toss on halfweight, and it's also counted as light armor, so you can move at full speed in it. All that would only come in at +5 worth of enhnacements plus some relatively cheap flat costs, coming in at around 36-40k (including the base +1 needed). Not bad for +9AC, +4 max dex armor that you can move at full speed in and literally anyone could use without penalty (bar like, monks I guess). Much cheaper than the 64k you'd pay for +8 bracers of armor or something.

I can do all that with a breastplate by spending less, though. Needs less enchantments overall for the same net result as long as you keep your Dex high, if not better.

+3 feycraft mithral breastplate: +8 AC, +5 Max Dex Bonus, -1 Armor Check Penalty, Arcane Failure Chance 10%, counts as light. Cost: 13,700

+1 halfweight mithral full plate: +9 AC, +3 Max Dex Bonus,-3 Armor Check Penalty, Arcane Failure Chance 25%, counts as light. Cost: 26,500

Why would I ever start investing into all those enhancements for the full plate, when I can make my breastplate better by spending less?

[Venger]

Because you can put armor enhancements on it more easily. You should never go higher than +1 on an armor or weapon.

[Silly Name]

Because you can put armor enhancements on it more easily. You should never go higher than +1 on an armor or weapon.

But the halfweight full plate counts as +4. I still come out on top with a +3 breastplate, and with high Dex you can even avoid spending money on the extra +2 and add properties if you want.

EDIT: Heck, just by spending 8,700 gold, I can get myself a +1 mithral twilight feycraft breastplate. Zero spell failure chance, only -1 armor check penalty, counts as light and offers 6 AC and a Max Dex Bonus of 5. That's a total of +11 to AC, just 2 points less than what Crake's fully upgraded armor offers, and costs less than a non-magical mithral full plate.

I can easily get those 2 points back with an amulet of natural armor +2 (8,000 go), or if I want to keep the neck slot free (assuming we're not using MIC rules for stacking properties), buy an animated shield (9,020 gp), a ring of protection +2, a ioun stone... Seriously, there's way less expensive ways to achieve +13 AC, and which require far less work.

[Telonius]

Because you can put armor enhancements on it more easily. You should never go higher than +1 on an armor or weapon.

I wouldn't say an absolute "never" on that. Greater weapon and armor crystals require that the weapon or armor they're modifying have a +3 enhancement bonus. Rogues in particular might want a +3 weapon for their Greater Truedeath crystal. Armor crystals aren't quite as tempting, but a Greater Crystal of Adaptation can see some use if you're going in for a planeshift-heavy campaign.

[Crake]

But the halfweight full plate counts as +4. I still come out on top with a +3 breastplate, and with high Dex you can even avoid spending money on the extra +2 and add properties if you want.

EDIT: Heck, just by spending 8,700 gold, I can get myself a +1 mithral twilight feycraft breastplate. Zero spell failure chance, only -1 armor check penalty, counts as light and offers 6 AC and a Max Dex Bonus of 5. That's a total of +11 to AC, just 2 points less than what Crake's fully upgraded armor offers, and costs less than a non-magical mithral full plate.

I can easily get those 2 points back with an amulet of natural armor +2 (8,000 go), or if I want to keep the neck slot free (assuming we're not using MIC rules for stacking properties), buy an animated shield (9,020 gp), a ring of protection +2, a ioun stone... Seriously, there's way less expensive ways to achieve +13 AC, and which require far less work.

You're approaching this from a different angle, you're looking for the cheapest right now bonuses, rather than planning for the long term highest possible bonus. Sure all that stuff is cheaper, but eventually the full-plate wearer can also get all those extra items too, and eventually, when you hit the armor cap of the breastplate, you'll be a step behind.

You're also assuming that the increased dex bonus is always going to be useful. Characters with less than 18 dex will benefit more from the full plate, and not everyone is even going to be hitting 18, let alone 20.

Also, if the half-weight enchantment is bothering you that much, you can just ditch it and either go dwarf, or get a pair of boots of striding.

[Thurbane]

Further evidence of how WotC screwed the pooch with medium armor. With the exception of mithril full plate, or due to class restrictions, there is almost never a reason no to go straight from light armor to heavy armor.

Medium should have less movement penalties, or something, to make it appealing. I think PF1 handles it better.

[Crake]

I think PF1 handles it better.

What did pf1 change other than adding an extra AC bonus to a bunch of the different armors (fullplate included)?

[Thurbane]

What did pf1 change other than adding an extra AC bonus to a bunch of the different armors (fullplate included)?

I haven't played PF1 for years, but I thought they tweaked the armor values, and changed the movement handicap for medium armor? I may be mis-remembering.

[Crake]

I haven't played PF1 for years, but I thought they tweaked the armor values, and changed the movement handicap for medium armor? I may be mis-remembering.

Yeah, I think they added +1 AC to medium and heavy armors, but I didn't think they'd changed the movement speed for them at all.

[KillianHawkeye]

PF1 tweaked the armor values for medium and heavy armor up a notch, and simultaneously reduced the ACP slightly, but did nothing for the movement speed penalty.

Interesting to note, now that my group is trying out PF2, that heavier armors have a Strength "requirement" which lets you ignore penalties and some of the speed reduction if you meet it. Seems cool.