Epic feats for mundanes

[Biggus]

It's widely accepted that casters have much better options when it comes to epic feats, and that mundanes lag well behind them in general. It occurred to me that one way some balance could be restored would be to give non-casters better epic feats to choose from. The ELH actively encourages you to invent your own:


Though this book contains more than one hundred fifty epic feats, it can't hope to encompass all the powers that your imagination can create. Rather than seeing this list as a restrictive collection of what is allowed, use it to spur your creativity. If you can dream of an epic character doing it, it can probably become an epic feat.

So, if you were playing a character with no spellcasting (or weak casting) with a reasonably permissive DM, what would you ask for?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's widely accepted that casters have much better options when it comes to epic feats, and that mundanes lag well behind them in general. It occurred to me that one way some balance could be restored would be to give non-casters better epic feats to choose from. The ELH actively encourages you to invent your own:

So, if you were playing a character with no spellcasting (or weak casting) with a reasonably permissive DM, what would you ask for?All hand-wringing and despairing cries of "WEABOO!" aside, go watch just about any shonen anime and see what the protagonists can do. Rock Lee, for example.

That. I'd ask for that.

Note that Japanese anime is far and away NOT the first or only fiction to portray stupidly powerful heroes. Power fantasies exist around the world, going back literally to the dawn of civilization. Go research what Gilgamesh, the protagonist of one of the very first pieces of fiction that we know of, could do. He'd be right up there with the likes of Monkey D. Luffy or Alucard. Or maybe any of the heroes of ancient Greece or Rome. Odysseus, Heracles, and Iolaus could pull off stuff that would make any 20th level fighter glow neon green with envy, and they'd fit right in with almost any shonen anime you care to name.

So, yeah. The ability to actually do amazing feats of physical strength and dexterity that literally defy physics.

[Doctor Despair]

I mean, they'd have to be better than superheroes to be worthwhile. Consider that wizards get flight and super speed at very low level spells pre-epic. I guess the ability to no-sell things or bypass immunities could be strong... Maybe the ability to emulate 9ths or 9th-level powers? Move so fast that time seems to stop, as of time stop, but without the restriction that you can't interact with others. Cut a rift in time to step backwards or forwards in some increment. Access to some sort of new place in the action economy with contingencies, like... the ability to place contingent physical actions that dodge through or past attacks, or block them. Things need to be super broken to even be comparable.

[NigelWalmsley]

If you write better Epic Feats for martials, what you're actually doing is writing better feats for Bear Druids, Cleric Archers, and Gishes. Because, for the most part, casters get Epic Feats as fast or faster than non-casters. The Monk gets an Epic Feat every five levels. The Druid gets one every four levels. What you would have to do is write feats that are effectively class features, and at that point you should just write some damn class features.

I will say that Epic Spellcasting is probably something that shouldn't be a feat. The only thing more absurdly game-destroying than giving players access to Epic Spellcasting is giving only some of the players access to Epic Spellcasting. Because that blows up the game just as much, but it completely excludes some people from having access to the single most useful tool available to the whole party. It should be an optional system where either everyone gets it or no one does.

[Doctor Despair]

Building on the contingency idea, the ability to bypass magic contingencies in an epic feat is probably a must. Something like "Mutable Future" or "Agent of Destiny" or something that effectively makes divination effects to learn your future actions or contingency effects on your current actions not trigger. That will make the spellcasters sweat a little. Without that, a divination to know you're coming leaves a spellcaster plenty of time to set up enough contingencies to action-economy away any threat you represent

[Toliudar]

How many finishing moves from Mortal Kombat would you like to be able to do?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Anything that nonepic class features can do to combat magic should be available as an epic feat, and then there should be another epic feat that further improves on a given feature. Just to name a few such features:

Spell Reflection ACF (CM)
Mettle (Hexblade, Crusader, Pious Templar, etc.)
(Improved) Evasion
Nondetection (Occult Slayer, Illithid Slayer, etc.)

Then to improve on those:

Spell Reflection: Benefits from the Exceptional Deflection epic feat, as well as the Infinite Deflection epic feat (which now removes the immediate action expenditure from Spell Reflection).
Mettle: Make an Improved Mettle, then make one that allows the spell to be rebounded upon the caster if they make the save.
Improved Evasion: First one allows the character to completely cancel the effect with a successful save by batting it away. Second one allows them to rebound it upon the caster instead.
Nondetection: Allows the character to know when a divination is being used on them, doubles the DC, and they can make the divination return false results.


Make a feat that allows the character to make an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon whenever an opponent's spell or spell-like ability provokes one, as though every opponent in range and line of sight/effect was being threatened. Make his also cause the Mage Slayer feat in CA to affect any creature that the character could make a ranged attack against.


Make a feat that can only be taken by characters with no spellcasting ability, which allows them to gain double the benefit from enhancement bonuses, resistance bonuses, and deflection bonuses. So a belt of +6 Str becomes +12 when they're using it, a ring of protection +5 becomes +10 when they wear it, a +5 weapon or shield becomes +10 in their hands, etc. This feat can be taken more than once and its effect stacks (normal doubling rules, so twice is x3, three times is x4, etc.), but no more often than once every six character levels. Because everyone knows that spellcasters can buff themselves significantly better than any suite of appropriate-level items can accomplish.

[rel]

The main difference between mundane powers and magical powers in D&D 3.x is that mundane powers give you a chance of something working, with caveats. While magical powers just work, no ifs, buts or maybes.

If you want your mundane power to be equivalent to a magical power then you need to follow the magic design philosophy; pick something you want your power to do in terms of outcomes then write the power to achieve that. then look at your newly written power, if there is a scenario where the power doesn't achieve what you want it to, modify the power until it does.
Finally, add a caveat that prevents casters from getting access to your new super power

example:

Adamant Defense
Your ability to parry attacks becomes superhuman.
By giving up one of your attacks of opportunity for the round you remove line of sight and line of effect to your character and their gear for an instant, just long enough to prevent an attack or effect from connecting.
As such the attack or effect is expended harmlessly (at least as far as you are concerned) unless it can explicitly effect targets that the originator doesn't have line of sight and line of effect to.
If the attack or effect being blocked has a persistent component you can choose to move out of the area of said effect as part of your parry. This movement ignores mundane and magical harmful and impeding effects and doesn't affect your ability to move in the future.
If you wouldn't normally be able to use an attack of opportunity for example because it is a surprise round, you are unarmed or you are unconscious you can still use this ability.
Keep track of attacks of opportunity used should it become relevant later in the round.
The number of attacks of opportunity you get per round can never be less than your level divided by 4.
When you take this feat you permanently lose any spellcasting abilities you previously had.

[Troacctid]

I would just take Epic Destiny and call it a win.

[Thurbane]

This list may offer some ideas: Epic Feats Outside the ELH/SRD (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599538)

[the_tick_rules]

This list may offer some ideas: Epic Feats Outside the ELH/SRD (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?599538)

In case nobody has already done it I grant you the title of there's a thread for that guy.

[Biggus]

Thanks for the replies all, and sorry it's taken me so long to reply, I wasn't too well over the weekend.


I mean, they'd have to be better than superheroes to be worthwhile. Consider that wizards get flight and super speed at very low level spells pre-epic. I guess the ability to no-sell things or bypass immunities could be strong... Maybe the ability to emulate 9ths or 9th-level powers? Move so fast that time seems to stop, as of time stop, but without the restriction that you can't interact with others. Cut a rift in time to step backwards or forwards in some increment. Access to some sort of new place in the action economy with contingencies, like... the ability to place contingent physical actions that dodge through or past attacks, or block them. Things need to be super broken to even be comparable.


Building on the contingency idea, the ability to bypass magic contingencies in an epic feat is probably a must. Something like "Mutable Future" or "Agent of Destiny" or something that effectively makes divination effects to learn your future actions or contingency effects on your current actions not trigger. That will make the spellcasters sweat a little. Without that, a divination to know you're coming leaves a spellcaster plenty of time to set up enough contingencies to action-economy away any threat you represent

This is the kind of thing I was thinking of. We don't allow the super-broken stuff like multiple contingencies in our games (I don't know anyone who does in fact) but even one is a huge advantage, so a way to stop them triggering makes sense. The idea of a mundane Time Stop is pretty cool too. What do you mean by "the ability to no-sell things"?


Anything that nonepic class features can do to combat magic should be available as an epic feat, and then there should be another epic feat that further improves on a given feature. Just to name a few such features:

Spell Reflection ACF (CM)
Mettle (Hexblade, Crusader, Pious Templar, etc.)
(Improved) Evasion
Nondetection (Occult Slayer, Illithid Slayer, etc.)

Then to improve on those:

Spell Reflection: Benefits from the Exceptional Deflection epic feat, as well as the Infinite Deflection epic feat (which now removes the immediate action expenditure from Spell Reflection).
Mettle: Make an Improved Mettle, then make one that allows the spell to be rebounded upon the caster if they make the save.
Improved Evasion: First one allows the character to completely cancel the effect with a successful save by batting it away. Second one allows them to rebound it upon the caster instead.
Nondetection: Allows the character to know when a divination is being used on them, doubles the DC, and they can make the divination return false results.

Make a feat that allows the character to make an attack of opportunity with a ranged weapon whenever an opponent's spell or spell-like ability provokes one, as though every opponent in range and line of sight/effect was being threatened. Make his also cause the Mage Slayer feat in CA to affect any creature that the character could make a ranged attack against.


I'd been considering making nonepic class features like Evasion and Mettle into epic feats (not Improved Mettle, as you can only get that as an epic class feature).

A mundane form of Nondetection seems like a good idea. Perhaps something which works similarly to Mind Blank but still enables you to take advantage of morale bonuses?

Improved Mage Slayer-type feats were another one I'd been wondering about, any other ideas for that kind of thing?

[Remuko]

What do you mean by "the ability to no-sell things"?

no selling normally means getting hit by something and ignoring it entirely. So basically being immune to something, either literally, or functionally.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd been considering making nonepic class features like Evasion and Mettle into epic feats (not Improved Mettle, as you can only get that as an epic class feature).

A mundane form of Nondetection seems like a good idea. Perhaps something which works similarly to Mind Blank but still enables you to take advantage of morale bonuses?

Improved Mage Slayer-type feats were another one I'd been wondering about, any other ideas for that kind of thing?

Nondetection with a sufficiently high DC can block any divination effect, but there are ways to boost your caster level to absurd levels so making a feat double the DC as an added benefit is fairly necessary. It should stop a Red Wizard who can get CL 40 pre-epic, an Ultimate Magus can get in that neighborhood or higher with Master Spellthief, Sublime Chord can do shenanigans, then there's Theurgic Specialist, but pretty much any of those requires a fairly specific build. A character at level 21 should have a Nondetection DC of character level +15 or 36, easily beatable, but doubling it to 72 and making it increase by +2 per character level should be sufficient to stop all but the most powerful foes' divination spells.

For Mage Slayer, you don't even need anything custom to do the Contingency: Teleport behind an enemy caster when I see them casting a spell trick. If they're casting defensively and you have Mage Slayer their spell automatically fails. If they're not you get an AoO, and will likely have a Sudden Stunning weapon or the Silencing Strike feat or similar abilities that interrupt spellcasting with more than just hp damage. I did this with a lich who used his paralyzing touch, the PC was far enough away from everyone that they all thought he'd died. He delivered some choice lines too, "Nothing personal, kid," when he teleported, then after he hit them and they failed the save, "Omae wa mou shindeiru," right before they fell on their face.