Fitting a Dysjunction into a Shalantha's Delicate Disc?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I'm looking for a way to put a Dysjunction (level 9 spell) into a Shalantha's Delicate Disc which can store spells of up to 5th level. Is there a way to get (or cast) Dysjunction as a level 5 spell?

[Asmotherion]

Best way I can think of is (ab)using Metanode Spell after attuning to an appropriate Node, together with Sanctum Spell.

If you combine those options, you should be ok with a +3 Node.

[Jowgen]

As metanode doesn't reduce the level of the spell for the purpose of spell effects/variable (but only slot cost) I don't think it'll work as described above.

And I can't think of anything that can overcome a whole 4 level difference, so your best bet might be looking to an alternative to Delicate Disk.

Elder Glyph of Warding could work, depending on your specific purpose.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Elder Glyph of Warding could work, depending on your specific purpose.
As a GM, I ruled that a faction had some sort of way to massively produce Dysjunctions and throw them at enemies (I love post-apocalyptic ex-Tippyverse settings, and I generally have the apocalypse be "world war where they started nuking each others wards with massed Dysjunctions"). Now one group of players have gotten to a point where they can finally learn how exactly it was done (if they think to ask the right NPC, but I expect that they will do so next session), and I'm hoping to find a way that isn't "homebrewed Greater Delicate Disc" spell.

[Jowgen]

Breaker Bottle from Song and Silence with a Elder Glyph could work, provided that the bottle's shattering effect counts as opening it.

All you need is address to 1000 gp material component cost of the glyph. A Hat of of Many Spells (ASH) could do it.

Alternatively, by RAW the greater glyph seal from MIC could work, as it's got a typo that lets it work for spells of 5th level or higher instead of lower.

[JNAProductions]

First off, good luck to you on finding a RAW way to do this!

But secondly... What's wrong with making something up? Given how 3E works, I'd make sure the players can replicate it (at appropriate cost) but homebrew is a fine thing to do.

[Anthrowhale]

Mind Mage 7 in Dragon Magazine #313 page 51 is the only way I know how to reduce spell level significantly.

[Zanos]

Alternatively, by RAW the greater glyph seal from MIC could work, as it's got a typo that lets it work for spells of 5th level or higher instead of lower.
These are explicitly reusable, so are probably the best long term option. 4k per isn't too pricey for a reusable magic deletion bomb.

[Jowgen]

These are explicitly reusable, so are probably the best long term option. 4k per isn't too pricey for a reusable magic deletion bomb.

I mean. The reusability is kinda limited by the fact that, as a magic deletion bomb, it's gonna get hit by said magic deletion.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

I've been using this in the background of my campaign settings for years now, and the following facts are set in stone:

It's a Dysjunction-bomb that's relatively mass-producible and easy to use. The ability to suddenly wreck most magic items in an enemy city is a big deal, and is an absolutely key part of the setting. It's not only one of the big reasons all the Tippyverse cities fell, it's also how I sell dungeons to my players. I regularly have players explore ruined cities or outposts from the Golden Age where most of the wards and defenses are gone and most of the loot is useless, but delving deep enough into the ruins of the cities might let them find areas with still-magical treasure, monsters and still-functional constructs.
It's cheap. It doesn't require material components, actually. I've been ruling that material component availability is an issue for Tippyverse empires who compete with each other for resources: if they were growing the reagents for this the enemy would know and would start wondering what secret project all this budget is being put into. If it does require components, they've got to be common and/or easy to disguise ("yes, we're stockpiling wands of Fireball, you got us!"), which means that it's got to be cheap.
It's not immediately obvious. Every faction can't have these. A key part of the setting is that the guys who had them thought it would be enough to let them start a hot war and win, instead of continuing the slow and expensive cold war. Actually, my original idea of fitting it inside a Delicate Disc was that a Shadowcraft Mage could make shadow copies without paying for the material components, thereby making a discreet arms buildup possible. So however this works, it can't be too straightforward.


I've been looking at everyone's solutions. Thanks for all the replies!

Breaker bottles say that they can only contain liquids, so AFAIK Glyphs of Warding don't work there.
Mind Mage could work. It's cheesy as hell, but this was a Tippyverse so I routinely include absolute cheese as NPCs. Going through my previous posts on this forum will show I've even included schools whose curriculum leads their students towards optimized builds! I could see Mind Mage as being some hard to get PrC that one faction stumbled upon, kept secret, and used to produce these "ace in the hole" weapons for the inevitable war between Tippyverse cities.
Nodes are such a great idea, I can't believe I didn't think of them. Metanode Spell + Sanctum Spell seems like it works. The rarity of level 3 nodes could explain why everyone hasn't tried this. And of course, Shadowcraft Mages are disproportionately likely to have Sanctum Spell (or Earth Spell, which fits Earth Node magic fluff-wise) and to use Delicate Disc, and are therefore disproportionately likely to discover this combo when they do find a Node... This would fulfill all my conditions without actually having to invent a new type of Delicate Disc that lets people story every level 9 spell cheaply, easily and conveniently.


I'll keep reading this thread if more people have idea, but I think that for now I'll go with the Node explanation.

[Bronk]

Not cheap at the outset, but maybe more thematically appropriate would be skull talismans. They're a lot like potions, but are skulls that you have to break in order to cast the spell (cool), go up to level 9 as well (nice), and follow magic item creation rules, which have all sorts of cost and time decreasing options and can't be ruined by a simple dispel magic.

Many of the options to decrease gold cost and xp cost are evil, so could be disguised as being for something else entirely... normal evil stuff?

You'd need large skulls, but you could shrink those down with a dispel magic/shrink item combo.

The skull talisman makes the breaker of the skull the target of the spell, so you'd send kamikaze minions. Very evil!

As a magic item, instead of casting the spell into the skull talisman, you could instead substitute an SLA or Supernatural Ability... maybe they've got the Adamantine Clockwork Horror in a box somewhere, pumping out disjunction over and over, like that one novel where they use a shackled beholder to dig into some phaerimm's lair...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The soul crystal power in Magic of Incarnum allows the manifester to spend a large number of power points to add a power s/he knows into a crystal made from incarnum. That crystal can be used similarly to a scroll, except it can be used by anyone, and it can be used until all the power points stored in the crystal run out, or until the duration on soul crystal expires.

A convert-spell-to-power erudite (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) can do this, although he'd have to find a way to nab 9th level spells (or a version of Mordenkainen's disjunction at level 8 or lower, which is much easier than a 5th level version). A wizard with access to mindrape or psychic chirurgery would work, if said wizard was willing to give him the information. Or a psion (StP erudite or otherwise) could make a soul crystal of psychic chirurgery to give to a wizard so the wizard could transfer the knowledge to the psion, who could then use soul crystal to store disjunctions for everyone else to use.

Storing the soul crystal in quintessence could keep it fresh permanently until it's ready to be used.

This doesn't allow for reactionary disjunctions (unlike with Shalantha's delicate disk), but literally anyone could spend their actions each round to activate a soul crystal.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Not cheap at the outset, but maybe more thematically appropriate would be skull talismans. They're a lot like potions, but are skulls that you have to break in order to cast the spell (cool), go up to level 9 as well (nice), and follow magic item creation rules, which have all sorts of cost and time decreasing options and can't be ruined by a simple dispel magic.

Many of the options to decrease gold cost and xp cost are evil, so could be disguised as being for something else entirely... normal evil stuff?

You'd need large skulls, but you could shrink those down with a dispel magic/shrink item combo.

The skull talisman makes the breaker of the skull the target of the spell, so you'd send kamikaze minions. Very evil!

As a magic item, instead of casting the spell into the skull talisman, you could instead substitute an SLA or Supernatural Ability... maybe they've got the Adamantine Clockwork Horror in a box somewhere, pumping out disjunction over and over, like that one novel where they use a shackled beholder to dig into some phaerimm's lair...
This runs into the usual resource problems. Yes there are many ways to reduce crafting costs, but those are the things everyone is trying to keep track of because they can be used to craft any magic equipment. Watching those is the very first step of watching for enemy military buildup, after all.

The soul crystal power in Magic of Incarnum allows the manifester to spend a large number of power points to add a power s/he knows into a crystal made from incarnum. That crystal can be used similarly to a scroll, except it can be used by anyone, and it can be used until all the power points stored in the crystal run out, or until the duration on soul crystal expires.

A convert-spell-to-power erudite (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) can do this, although he'd have to find a way to nab 9th level spells (or a version of Mordenkainen's disjunction at level 8 or lower, which is much easier than a 5th level version). A wizard with access to mindrape or psychic chirurgery would work, if said wizard was willing to give him the information. Or a psion (StP erudite or otherwise) could make a soul crystal of psychic chirurgery to give to a wizard so the wizard could transfer the knowledge to the psion, who could then use soul crystal to store disjunctions for everyone else to use.

Storing the soul crystal in quintessence could keep it fresh permanently until it's ready to be used.

This doesn't allow for reactionary disjunctions (unlike with Shalantha's delicate disk), but literally anyone could spend their actions each round to activate a soul crystal.
This is an interesting approach. Of course it's a lot easier to stop anyone from getting close enough to use their action to activate a Dysjunction-bomb than it is to stop someone from using them as actual bombs or mines, but this could be an interesting emergency response from the other "sides" after their first taste of Dysjunction-bomb spam.

[Asmotherion]

As metanode doesn't reduce the level of the spell for the purpose of spell effects/variable (but only slot cost) I don't think it'll work as described above.

And I can't think of anything that can overcome a whole 4 level difference, so your best bet might be looking to an alternative to Delicate Disk.

Elder Glyph of Warding could work, depending on your specific purpose.

Let me explain: You prepare a Disjunction in a, for example, class 2 node. With Node metamagic, you then add a bunsh of +0 Metamagic on your Disjunction, like Invisible Spell, Lord of the Uttercold, Eshew Materials, and for each, your spell level is lowered by 2. So, if you prepare a Level 4 Disjunction, it is a fair spell to put in a Delicate Disk.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Let me explain: You prepare a Disjunction in a, for example, class 2 node. With Node metamagic, you then add a bunsh of +0 Metamagic on your Disjunction, like Invisible Spell, Lord of the Uttercold, Eshew Materials, and for each, your spell level is lowered by 2. So, if you prepare a Level 4 Disjunction, it is a fair spell to put in a Delicate Disk.
Well in this specific case I think you'd need to use Heighten Spell, because otherwise you're just casting a 9th-level spell out of a lower-level slot and Delicate Disc requires it to be a 5th-level spell (the slot used to cast it doesn't matter).

Actually, I just checked the wording of Heighten Spell, and I think it doesn't actually work. It specifically only increases the spell's level, even if you can cast it out of a lower-level slot. So while it's possible to cast Dysjunction out of a low-level spell slot, it wouldn't actually be a low-level spell that could enter the Disc.

I guess I'll have to use Mind Mage then, or homebrew a reverse Heighten Spell feat that lowers a spell's effective level and DC (but maybe requires the same spell slot, otherwise it could be abused in many other ways).
Or after checking some stuff, maybe Elder Glyph of Warding could do. It's expensive, but it's exactly the same material cost as everyday resurrection magic (1000gp diamond) so buying them in bulk and stockpiling them wouldn't be alarming.
On the other hand this is harder to use (needs to be triggered by a creature, doesn't explode on impact) and poses the question of why everyone doesn't use this strategy.

[Asmotherion]

Well in this specific case I think you'd need to use Heighten Spell, because otherwise you're just casting a 9th-level spell out of a lower-level slot and Delicate Disc requires it to be a 5th-level spell (the slot used to cast it doesn't matter).

Actually, I just checked the wording of Heighten Spell, and I think it doesn't actually work. It specifically only increases the spell's level, even if you can cast it out of a lower-level slot. So while it's possible to cast Dysjunction out of a low-level spell slot, it wouldn't actually be a low-level spell that could enter the Disc.

I guess I'll have to use Mind Mage then, or homebrew a reverse Heighten Spell feat that lowers a spell's effective level and DC (but maybe requires the same spell slot, otherwise it could be abused in many other ways).
Or after checking some stuff, maybe Elder Glyph of Warding could do. It's expensive, but it's exactly the same material cost as everyday resurrection magic (1000gp diamond) so buying them in bulk and stockpiling them wouldn't be alarming.
On the other hand this is harder to use (needs to be triggered by a creature, doesn't explode on impact) and poses the question of why everyone doesn't use this strategy.

There's also a pretty streight forward solution, if you don't mind the "mass produced disjunction" to need UMD for most people:

Scrolls of Disjunction. You know the Drill, Wizard or Sorcerer Shapechanges into a Zodar, casts it's (xp free) Wish, rince and repeat next round, for a different Zodar that has not used it's Wish yet, for the duration of the spell.

A scroll of Disjunction would have a Base price of 3825gp, and the Wish Spell can produce an item of up to 25000gp. It can create a Magical item (No specified cost limit, but even if we use the 25000gp mentioned for a non-magical item, it's still much more than the cost of the scroll).

Extra steps to make Mass Production Possible:
-Ice Assasins of you that do the same thing.
-Persistant Spell and Incantatrix, or use the abovementioned methode of Node Metamagic to Persist Shapechange.

Overall, over the course of 24 hours, 1 Mage can produce 14400 scrolls of Disjunction X the number of Ice Assasins of himself working for him, doing the same.

If you don't like the Zodar thing, there's also the Magical Trap Wish option.

[Jowgen]

Or after checking some stuff, maybe Elder Glyph of Warding could do. It's expensive, but it's exactly the same material cost as everyday resurrection magic (1000gp diamond) so buying them in bulk and stockpiling them wouldn't be alarming.
On the other hand this is harder to use (needs to be triggered by a creature, doesn't explode on impact) and poses the question of why everyone doesn't use this strategy.

The Hat of Many Spells from the Animated Series Handbook can sort your material component cost woes.

It's like Hank's Energy Bow's lesser known but arguably more awesome cousin.

For one up front payment of 25000 gp it provides you with any material component worth up to 1000 gp, which just lets it work for Elder Glyph.

Breaker Bottles came to mind as the container to be warded as they come with an in-built remote trigger option. There might be something better for this purpose out there, although as a plus you could store some alchemical stuff in there to combo with the disjunction effect.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a repeating, self-resetting trap of permanency/animate objects and one of Mordenkainen's disjunction with Craft Contingent Spell or contingency applied. Use the former to animate dull, boring-looking pebbles and such, then set them up to activate the contingency on a timer, or whenever a specific other condition would apply. Drop the pebbles off at strategic locations and wait until the contingent disjunction is set off. It'll destroy the animation, but it's served its purpose by then anyway.

And since they're self-resetting traps that anyone can activate, you don't need a wizard, archivist, psion, or whatever past the creation of the initial trap.

Alternatively, spell-clocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a).

[TalonOfAnathrax]

The Hat of Many Spells from the Animated Series Handbook can sort your material component cost woes.

It's like Hank's Energy Bow's lesser known but arguably more awesome cousin.

For one up front payment of 25000 gp it provides you with any material component worth up to 1000 gp, which just lets it work for Elder Glyph.

Breaker Bottles came to mind as the container to be warded as they come with an in-built remote trigger option. There might be something better for this purpose out there, although as a plus you could store some alchemical stuff in there to combo with the disjunction effect.
[screams in worldbuilding collapse]
I'm either going to have to rethink everything, or I'm going to have to pretend that this item doesn't exist. Controlling material component availability was one of the big things that made the setting work, and it's linked to the limits on divine intervention and extraplanar invasions that I implemented to explain why Outsiders don't rule everything. So changing that would not only require me to change background fluff that my players never really know, but it'd also retroactively break plots we played through...
Thank a lot for this response and I'll keep it in mind for any future campaigns with a similar precise, but in this one I'll be pretending it doesn't exist.


There's also a pretty streight forward solution, if you don't mind the "mass produced disjunction" to need UMD for most people:

Scrolls of Disjunction. You know the Drill, Wizard or Sorcerer Shapechanges into a Zodar, casts it's (xp free) Wish, rince and repeat next round, for a different Zodar that has not used it's Wish yet, for the duration of the spell.

A scroll of Disjunction would have a Base price of 3825gp, and the Wish Spell can produce an item of up to 25000gp. It can create a Magical item (No specified cost limit, but even if we use the 25000gp mentioned for a non-magical item, it's still much more than the cost of the scroll).

Extra steps to make Mass Production Possible:
-Ice Assasins of you that do the same thing.
-Persistant Spell and Incantatrix, or use the abovementioned methode of Node Metamagic to Persist Shapechange.

Overall, over the course of 24 hours, 1 Mage can produce 14400 scrolls of Disjunction X the number of Ice Assasins of himself working for him, doing the same.

If you don't like the Zodar thing, there's also the Magical Trap Wish option.
I've gotten rid of infinite Wish loops by saying that repeated Wish abuse damages reality somehow (there's got to be limits at some point, even to high-OP Tippyverse settings, and this is mine).
And scrolls are much less convenient than bombs. The whole point of this is that it's a way that's incredibly easy to use and mass-produce. I'm talking "throw three hundred Dysjunctions and several tons of explosives under shrink item at every single minor outpost to straight-up overwhelm whatever the enemy's contingencies are" levels of mass-producible, because that's the sort of thing that I had imagined would feel sufficient to break the "each side has multiple level 20 strike teams and huge numbers of heavily fortified mid-level threats" MAD status quo. Scrolls which need to be crafted and activated would just be a normal part of the usual high-OP skirmishes that this setting has.
If you're curious, I mostly make that work by using a Cold War style MAD system. Everyone knows that it's easier to attack than to defend in D&D, so if you get too ambitious or attack a key facility you'll hit absurd WBL's worth of defenses and maybe you'll start WW3 and parties of level 20 PCs with unlimited WBL and years of prep will attack you while you do the same to them. So there's lots of skirmishes and intrigue and "normal" PC levels, plots inspired by Cold War spy thrillers crossed with action movies, etc.


How about a repeating, self-resetting trap of permanency/animate objects and one of Mordenkainen's disjunction with Craft Contingent Spell or contingency applied. Use the former to animate dull, boring-looking pebbles and such, then set them up to activate the contingency on a timer, or whenever a specific other condition would apply. Drop the pebbles off at strategic locations and wait until the contingent disjunction is set off. It'll destroy the animation, but it's served its purpose by then anyway.

And since they're self-resetting traps that anyone can activate, you don't need a wizard, archivist, psion, or whatever passed the creation of the initial trap.

Alternatively, spell-clocks (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070312a).
Hm. Self-resetting traps are valid, but can you make one with Craft Contingent Spell? I'd assumed that you couldn't. This would significantly raise the "Golden Age" power level of the setting, but AFAIK it wouldn't outright break it if I give it to everyone so if it works I'll add it to my worldbuilding.
I do include self-resetting spell traps of various spells in all fortifications and in the post-scarcity megacities, of course. Sometimes the players find an intact one and it's the haul of the century, and old elves who survived the apocalypse moan about how back in the day this was standard and everything was better... It's fun ;)

[ExLibrisMortis]

Mind Mage 7 in Dragon Magazine #313 page 51 is the only way I know how to reduce spell level significantly.
Seconding this. For a measly 72 power points (subject to the usual pp restrictions, so you need ML 72 as well), you could have Mordenkainen's disjunction in a cantrip slot, which you can then do all sorts of things with. In particular, if you rule that this lets artificers craft an eternal wand (or drow house insignia) of the spell, you get a combination of extremely wide deployment (cheap, easy-to-use items) and extremely strict limits (hitting ML 72 isn't trivial).

In a related technique, you can jam expunge the supernatural into a spell-storing piece of ammunition to get rid of (Su) abilities that MD doesn't get, and at very high ranges (upwards of 2000 feet, minimum, and there's lots of archery spells that negate cover, concealment, range penalties etc.), although ongoing supernatural effects might not be affected.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

[screams in worldbuilding collapse]
Hm. Self-resetting traps are valid, but can you make one with Craft Contingent Spell? I'd assumed that you couldn't.Limited wish, maybe? Crafted Contingent Spells are considered magic items, after all.

Also, what about Devices, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood? Non-magical magic items wouldn't be subject to Mordenkainen's disjunction, and if only one or two people knew the knack of making them, they could craft some nonmagical "spell" traps or "spell" clocks that could ruin the other side with no risk to their own.

[Jowgen]

[screams in worldbuilding collapse]
I'm either going to have to rethink everything, or I'm going to have to pretend that this item doesn't exist. Controlling material component availability was one of the big things that made the setting work, and it's linked to the limits on divine intervention and extraplanar invasions that I implemented to explain why Outsiders don't rule everything. So changing that would not only require me to change background fluff that my players never really know, but it'd also retroactively break plots we played through...
Thank a lot for this response and I'll keep it in mind for any future campaigns with a similar precise, but in this one I'll be pretending it doesn't exist.

Why must I keep on destorying worlds? When will my trail of destruction end? Why am I like this? WHY?!!!!:smalltongue:

Joking aside, don't feel bad, Animated Series Handbook -while a 1st party splatbook- is very much on the fringes of what people consider acceptable sourcebook material. Like, even tables that blanket-permit dragon mag and april fools web articles tend to feel iffy about that one. If it weren't for the fact that Hank's Energy Bow is so vital to make archery work properly, I doubt people would touch the book with a 10 ft pole. You are well justified in deeming it indadmissable at your table.

Although if we are on the topic of circumventing spell component costs, you way want to also keep an eye on the Channel Charge feat. It allows for the use of spell-trigger items without expending their charges by instead expending higher level spell-slots. Lets you use expensive material component spells from a wand, scepter , or staff without worrying about the component cost after intiial construction. And given that staves can be made for dirt cheap if you rank up the normal charge cost, it can get very out of hand very quickly.

Though if you wanted to make it work with disjunction/elder glyph, you need someone with 10th level spell slots to expend.