Monk/Mage

[Chalkarts]

I'm working out a

Monk/Wizard(Diviner).

I suspect all of his spells will end up being utility and defense so I'm not terribly worried about a high Intelligence, 13-15 will do for his needs. I just want Portent and a familiar.

I'm having trouble deciding how far I should dip into Wizard.

Is it worth it to plan for 17m/3w?
I'm of the mind that a 2 level dip is plenty for my needs, but 3 would give me a couple second level slots at the cost of Empty Body.
Is it a worthy trade?

[PhantomSoul]

(As always, make sure planning for level 20 makes sense for your campaign, and if so it would be good to have an idea of when you'd want/need certain abilities by and therefore when to take levels in each class.)

You say you mainly just want Portent and a Familiar, so you could stick with two levels quite comfortably. I'd recommend looking at spells and deciding whether any really tickle your fancy for the character. Is Blur worth it? Misty step? Mirror Image? In short, I'd recommend working backwards from the desired spells, and there isn't much information to base that on. (Some spells might be redundant or less useful depending on your Monk subclass.)

[x3n0n]

Empty Body is very strong. If you are pretty confident that you will reach lv20, I would try to preserve the ability to get there. (See, for example, the analysis in https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617446-Monk-v-Death-Knight)

Monk levels 1, 2, 5, 14, and 18 seem like the major power bumps to me (ignoring subclasses and nonmagical damage resistance, which can offer significant value at every opportunity: 3, 6, 11, and 17).

If you're playing any character levels below 16, I would keep any pre-Monk-14 dips as small as possible: Diamond Soul can significantly change your playstyle, so getting it earlier is a lot more fun. (Portent helps a little bit, but it's definitely not the same.)

[Chalkarts]

Empty Body is very strong. If you are pretty confident that you will reach lv20, I would try to preserve the ability to get there. (See, for example, the analysis in https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?617446-Monk-v-Death-Knight)

If you're playing any character levels below 16, I would keep any pre-Monk-14 dips as small as possible: Diamond Soul can significantly change your playstyle, so getting it earlier is a lot more fun. (Portent helps a little bit, but it's definitely not the same.)

I had considered 14/6 for the 3rd level magic and spell refreshing ability but didn't really know how much his magic would come in to play outside of identifying and detecting things.

But yes, 14 is as low as I'd allow monk to go, Diamond Soul is too sweet.

As for the Portent, it won't be alone. He's a Halfling monk with lucky and portent. It's just another gooey layer of dice changing cheese.

[x3n0n]

I had considered 14/6 for the 3rd level magic and spell refreshing ability but didn't really know how much his magic would come in to play outside of identifying and detecting things.

But yes, 14 is as low as I'd allow monk to go, Diamond Soul is too sweet.

As for the Portent, it won't be alone. He's a Halfling monk with lucky and portent. It's just another gooey layer of dice changing cheese.

Nice!

In that case, I guess more reflection about your party and context is worthwhile.

If you are supposed to be a "striker" and don't think you'll be fighting things with blindsight/truesight, Empty Body is everything it's supposed to be (plus Martial Arts d10 and damaging subclass abilities at Monk 17), so I'd prioritize Monk levels over all.

If instead you're looking for more party utility, there's a *lot* in 3 levels of wizard spells.

Edit: also, if you expect a lot of your spellcasting to be what you said (find familiar, detect magic, identify, maybe comprehend languages), all of those are rituals that can be cast without slots if planned for, and even at just lv2, you've virtually got 4 slots for Shield and Absorb Elements because of Arcane Recovery.

[LibraryOgre]

I think two levels is more than adequate for what you want. I'd be tempted to ask a DM if I could make Portent a feat I could take, and spend 2 feats/ASIs rather than 2 levels.

[Hellpyre]

I think I'd say that if you expect the spen a lot of time in the early-mid levels, taking Wizard to 3 will probably end up making for a smoother leveling experience. If you start somewhere in the mid levels, I would just take 2 levels and dip again for a third if you felt like you really wanted the additional spell options.

[x3n0n]

I think I'd say that if you expect the spen a lot of time in the early-mid levels, taking Wizard to 3 will probably end up making for a smoother leveling experience. If you start somewhere in the mid levels, I would just take 2 levels and dip again for a third if you felt like you really wanted the additional spell options.

Not OP and not necessarily disagreeing, just surprised. I would generally think fewer non-Monk levels would make for better leveling, getting you to the all-important Monk 5 faster (for Extra Attack and Stunning Strike), plus less delay for the ASIs.

(If OP is starting at high level, the point is moot, but I'm curious for my own benefit.)

[Hellpyre]

Not OP and not necessarily disagreeing, just surprised. I would generally think fewer non-Monk levels would make for better leveling, getting you to the all-important Monk 5 faster (for Extra Attack and Stunning Strike), plus less delay for the ASIs.

(If OP is starting at high level, the point is moot, but I'm curious for my own benefit.)

Portent already makes early levels less lethal, since you can force successes and failures where they need to be the most, and 2nd level spells represent a large increase in utility both in and out of combat over 1st. As your monk level and your other party members levels increase, the increase in utility to your team from a few second-level spells diminish somewhat, so the third level is less important after you get to those levels. But Blur, Invisibility, and Web help you and your team get there safer and more easily. (Plus, cantrips scale with character level instead of class level, so they can carry you to a later Extra Attack without too many growing pains.)

EDIT: For a bit more clarity, I assume that the player wants the core build features online relatively early, so they can play the character as envisioned for most of their adventuring career. So I would expect we're looking at a start of Monk 3 -> Wiz 2 in any case, and the next level taken in either class is great after that (Monk 4 for Lucky, Wiz 3 for 2nd level). So starting from 1, to play this character, I'd probably recommend Monk3->Monk3/Wiz2->Monk4/Wiz2->Monk4/Wiz3->Monk5+/Wiz3

[x3n0n]

Portent already makes early levels less lethal, since you can force successes and failures where they need to be the most, and 2nd level spells represent a large increase in utility both in and out of combat over 1st. As your monk level and your other party members levels increase, the increase in utility to your team from a few second-level spells diminish somewhat, so the third level is less important after you get to those levels. But Blur, Invisibility, and Web help you and your team get there safer and more easily. (Plus, cantrips scale with character level instead of class level, so they can carry you to a later Extra Attack without too many growing pains.)

EDIT: For a bit more clarity, I assume that the player wants the core build features online relatively early, so they can play the character as envisioned for most of their adventuring career. So I would expect we're looking at a start of Monk 3 -> Wiz 2 in any case, and the next level taken in either class is great after that (Monk 4 for Lucky, Wiz 3 for 2nd level). So starting from 1, to play this character, I'd probably recommend Monk3->Monk3/Wiz2->Monk4/Wiz2->Monk4/Wiz3->Monk5+/Wiz3

Thanks! I was thinking
* monk to 5, wizard to 2, monk+,
* monk to 2 or 3, wizard 1, monk to 5, wizard 2, monk+, or
* wizard 1, monk to 5, wizard 2, monk+.

Subclass makes some difference. Way of Shadow is great support even before wizard shows up, while Open Hand seems better with early Portent.

Thanks for the input, and good points. :)

[MinotaurWarrior]

I think Monk 5 -> Diviner 2 -> Monk 18 is the smoothest transition, as portent will meaningfully enhance the power of stunning strike.

I might actually consider going chronurgist instead, for the similar luck manipulation but also the boost to initiative.

[Hellpyre]

I'd agree in general, but I still feel like delaying the mainstay of the build too late will make a campaign from level one feel less like the character as envisioned by the player at the outset. Generally, I feel like delaying the two levels of Wizard to the end is probably most optimal for just about any expected level range, except you don't get to do the whole Halfling+Portent(+Lucky) thing at all for most of your playtime. And if you do take Divination Wizard early for Portent, level 3 stands out stronger if you expect to stay in low levels for a while.

Fundamentally, it really comes down to three things: How much does OP care about having access to Portent (and spells, if they're going for a 'mystic monk' sort of flavor, although I don't think spell access seemed like something terribly important to them) as a mainstay early vs late, what level does the character start at, and how long does the OP expect to be at each level.

[Edea]

Monk 5/Wizard 2/Monk +13.

cantrips: lightning lure, shocking grasp, sword burst
1st: absorb elements, alarm(R), comprehend languages(R), detect magic(R), find familiar(R), identify(R), shield, tenser's floating disk(R)

I wouldn't bother going past Wizard 2. You're going to be busy using your action to Attack (or Cast a melee cantrip) and your bonus action using your ki features, so just prep absorb elements and shield as emergency reactions and stick to using your other spells as rituals.

I'd go with Long Death or Open Palm for your monk subclass.

[x3n0n]

Monk 5/Wizard 2/Monk +13.

cantrips: lightning lure, shocking grasp, sword burst
1st: absorb elements, alarm(R), comprehend languages(R), detect magic(R), find familiar(R), identify(R), shield, tenser's floating disk(R)

I wouldn't bother going past Wizard 2. You're going to be busy using your action to Attack (or Cast a melee cantrip) and your bonus action using your ki features, so just prep absorb elements and shield as emergency reactions and stick to using your other spells as rituals.

I'd go with Long Death or Open Palm for your monk subclass.

I mostly agree. I'm a little bit surprised to see so many Int-dependent cantrips in this list, knowing that it's going to be +1 or +2 at most.

That would push me toward more utility with less dependence on spellcasting ability: things like minor illusion, mage hand, message, mold earth, or presumably other things that start with "m". (Apparently just mending.)

OP, note also that you can continue to add 1st-level spells to your book, and at half price if they're from the divination school. :)